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Resource LC Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Corporal Levi, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. GlassGlaceon

    GlassGlaceon Immerse me in the wonder of Your love...
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    It has Thief
    for Missy
  2. Mienfoo

    Mienfoo

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    Yeah, I forgot about Thief, but Missy takes those like a champ.
  3. apt-get

    apt-get 笑っている 今が愛おしくて ひとりじゃないと思った
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    nice try Mienfoo, hyping bunnelby to get even less drain punch switches...
  4. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Rowan prem Now that Murkrow and Meditite are banned, could we include High, Mid and Low ranks for each rank (apart from S- and D-Rank).
    This would help organize the current ranks and would make it a bit easier for newer players to understand which Pokemon are better than others.
  5. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    i was gonna make a post about it soon but didnt cause ive been busy with finals studying. we are going to start doing this but i want to do it in a specific order because i dont have the time to go through everything.


    we are gonna do A ranks split right now. so any pokemon in A rank can be told to go to A- / A / A+

    I swear pls do not talk about anything in b rank right now that can happen later
  6. The Avalanches

    The Avalanches Admiral Qwilfish
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    The things that pop out for me for A+ are Scraggy and Tirtouga. They seem just a bit more useful and versatile than their other A-Rank brethren. They're both excellent sweepers, and Tirtouga's potential as a support Pokemon is only now being realized. I'll think of what else should move, but for now, these two should definitely be considered.
  7. Corporal Levi

    Corporal Levi foongus
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    So do we just list what we think for now and debate later

    A+
    Archen
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Timburr

    A
    Carvanha
    Croagunk (A-?)
    Cottonee
    Drilbur (A-?)
    Porygon
    Tirtouga (A+?)

    A-
    Dwebble
    Magnemite (A?)
    Ponyta
    Scraggy (A?)
    Spritzee (A?)
    Trubbish (A?)
    Vullaby

    Some which may seem debatable but I strongly think should be placed in a given category:

    Archen - Archen's combination of moves, typing and stats make it incredibly easy to fit on a variety of teams. Its movepool contains coveted support moves in Knock Off, Stealth Rock and Defog, roost for more survivability, and a truckload of offensive options, including but not limited to Rock Slide, Rock Tomb, Earthquake, U-Turn, and Acrobatics. It's also one of the few counters to every single popular variant of Fletchling that doesn't get taken out by Diglett, which is a fairly notable niche. All of this is backed by an enormous base 112 Attack. Although Defeatist and only decent Speed hold it back, I think Archen's strengths still warrant it a placement in A+.

    Timburr - Excellent bulk, solid damage output and an adequate offensive movepool allow Timburr to pose as a massive headache to a variety of teams. Trubbish doesn't actually counter Timburr if it switches in on a Bulk Up, especially if Gunk Shot poisons for an even more brutal Drain Punch. I think Mach Punch, superior physical bulk and great offensive abilities are enough for Timburr to be comparable to Mienfoo in terms of viability, even if the lack of Regenerator makes it a less effective pivot.

    Cottonee - In a metagame where high-risk high-reward sweepers such as Zigzagoon and Omanyte are all very legitimate choices, Cottonee is able to stand out by both helping allies set up and making opponents more wary of doing so themselves; just Cottonee's mere presence on a team is often enough. Other than that, Cottonee still has its brilliant supportive movepool to utilize, and more importantly, phenomenal typing, which allows it to check a variety of threats such as Drilbur and Scraggy that many teams could otherwise have significant amounts of trouble doing so.

    Dwebble - The issue with Dwebble is how prepared for it is nowadays, and the difficulty it has getting around designated checks and counters, preventing it from being much more than simply a dead weight, although if the team is lacking something to get around Dwebble, it still does a wonderful job, of course. That's really it.
    queenlucy and Aerow like this.
  8. Tahu

    Tahu

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    Preliminary list:

    A+:
    Archen
    Carvanha
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Scraggy
    Timburr
    Tirtouga

    A:
    Croagunk
    Cottonee
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Porygon
    Trubbish

    A-:
    Magnemite
    Ponyta
    Spritzee
    Vullaby

    I might edit in reasoning for this later, but I don't have time to do so right now.
  9. Merritt

    Merritt

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    A+:
    Carvanha (unsure)
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Scraggy
    Tirtouga

    A:
    Cottonee
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Porygon
    Trubbish
    Archen
    Timburr

    A-:
    Magnemite
    Ponyta
    Spritzee
    Vullaby
    Croagunk

    Got so many water types in A+ ._.

    Archen, though good, suffers from a mediocre typing and has the main hyped niche of countering fletchling. While that's notable in the extreme, Defeatist and lowish speed hurt it enough in my eyes to just have it plain old A rank. Nobody's going to be arguing Archen going up to S anytime soon.

    Carvanha is a hard one. On one hand, it's fast and powerful, has decent coverage, and even has access to priority. On the other, fletchling can bypass its speed and usually murder it. It can sweep teams lategame very easily, however.
  10. The Avalanches

    The Avalanches Admiral Qwilfish
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    A+
    Archen
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Scraggy
    Timburr
    Tirtouga

    A
    Carvanha
    Cottonee
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Magnemite
    Porygon

    A-
    Croagunk
    Ponyta
    Spritzee
    Trubbish
    Vullaby

    I've explained Tirt and Scrag.
    Archen stops the FletchLett core which is pretty huge, imo. It can mangle opponents with its monstrous attack, and rock, defog and all that. I don't even think Defeatist can keep it from A+

    Chinchou is extremely versatile and can be thrown on nearly any team. It is pretty bulky and can account for most of the Ground and Flying-types in the tier.

    Fletchling is a maniac who can tear up teams and it's easily my favourite sweeper right now.

    Timburr is bulky as hell, and it can still hammer Pawniard, Tirtouga, and a whole bunch of useful Pokemon in the tier. I think it only takes like 60% from Fletchling Acrobatics too.
  11. Porpoise

    Porpoise

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    Can we stop pretending Fletchling is that good? It's good, but it's definitely not THAT good. It's a pretty good revenge killer and a really bad sweeper and it dies when the wind hits it funny. It also has very common checks and counters in Chinchou, Pawniard, Tirtouga, Archen and Onix, and there are less common but also useful ways to deal with it like Flame Body, Ferroseed, anything else with Priority (since Fletchling is kind of slow when using anything other than Flying).

    Fletchling is really a one-trick pony that is extremely overhyped. It can do it's job and it can do it's job well, but it relies entirely on it's teammates to clear the field, because it's mediocre attack and speed and nonexistant bulk won't carry it on anything that isn't weak to Flying and has some form of usable bulk.
  12. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary

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    umm why are people making lists for this? why are we not doing single or double nominations like we've always been? it just doesn't make sense to me.

    in any case, I strongly believe timburr and fletchling should go up to a+.
    fletchling is just great. flying offense is super strong in this metagame and fletchling is the ringleader of it. on paper, it's stats are meh, but priority on acrobatics easily gives it the strongest priority move in the tier. with all the fighting-types running around, it makes it that much more useful. it can sweep considerably often or at least clean up a weakened team, but either way it is in some way important in any given battle. I can kinda see this thing going for a rank given that it is checked well by a lot of strong threats (pawniard, Chinchou, tirtouga, archen, Trubbish to an extent) though.

    timburr has always been bulky, and in this meta it works very well with pawniard, carvanha, scraggy, tirtouga, Dwebble, and Trubbish running around. it isn't that hard for it to pull off a few bulk ups against weaker opponents like Trubbish, Chinchou, etc. the main reason it belongs in a+ is its great bulk and fighting-type that lets it check a lot of top threats.

    edit: oh also absdaddy and a few other ps users wanted me to do this for my 502nd post so:

    are blarajan ruining the metagame?
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
    ROJO RODRIGUEZ likes this.
  13. Corporal Levi

    Corporal Levi foongus
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    I think Fletchling is indeed that good. It's not a pretty good revenge-killer; it's arguably the absolute best revenge-killer in the game, since a 110 base power STAB priority move with no drawbacks once Fletchling is itemless is potent, to say the least. It's not a really bad sweeper; it's one of the best win conditions available, because with a bit of support to break the things that otherwise beat it, +2 Acrobatics becomes nightmarish for offensive teams. It may be innately frail, but access to such a powerful priority move allows it to invest in defenses; the standard spread of 156 HP/92 Def/52 SpD is able to survive every unboosted priority move in the tier. Flame Body is unreliable, Ferroseed falls to Overheat, and is set-up bait for bulky Fletchling, and priority doesn't OHKO a healthy Fletchling.

    Fletchling is not a one-trick pony; every single counter you've listed except maybe defensive Archen can be played around, be it through Overheat, some form of Natural Gift, or something else. Fletchling certainly relies on its teammates to clear the field if it is to attempt a sweep; however, this not only applies to every non-broken sweeper ever, but this is actually a plus for Fletchling because it can aid its teammates in doing so through U-Turn. Even before this happens, Fletchling is anything but a dead weight due to its aforementioned revenge-killing capabilities.
  14. Porpoise

    Porpoise

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    I'm not saying it's dead weight, and I'm certainly not saying Fletchling is bad. All I am saying is that it is overhyped and a lot less useful than you guys are making it out to be. It's perfectly viable and I'm not saying don't use it, but this thread exaggerates it's abilities a lot.

    Yes, Fletchling is a good revenge killer, and as you said it probably is the best at that role. Yes, it can play around it's counters (but to be honest I think Natural Gift is extremely gimmicky and situational and Overheat is pretty bad). And yes, almost nothing wants to switch into it, Fletchling can't get the OHKOs that it needs to be fully successful.. Anything that can take a hit (which, from full health, isn't the most difficult thing to do for anything that isn't Fighting, Grass, or Bug and has some level of bulk) should be able to OHKO it, especially with SR being so common, and it isn't able to take it out any priority move will be able to.

    Again, Fletchling isn't a bad Pokemon, and I haven't been trying to say that. However, without Swords Dance or some other form of boost, which it finds difficulty setting up, it just doesn't have the power to sweep teams. It's only other attacks besides Acrobatics are Return (which is pretty good), Overheat (which can't be used consistently due to cutting Fletchling's already bad Special Attack) and Natural Gift (which is seriously gimmicky as fuck, it can only be used once and prevents Acrobatics from being good until then).

    I'll say it again, Fletchling is an excellent revenge killer, but it's still not a good sweeper. Yes, at +2 Acrobatics is a force to be reckoned with, but it also dies the turn it sets up the Swords Dance because it dies to just about any hit other than priority.

    Bad? No.
    Possible to play around? Easily.
    Overhyped? Yes.

    Also,
    How is this a plus for Fletchling? Obviously it needs support, but unlike Pokemon that are actually good at sweeping it needs a ton of it. Mienfoo, Misdrevus, and Tirtouga, among others, are able to function pretty well with pretty minimal support, while the support Fletchling needs is significantly greater. The definition of A rank states "These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively" and Fletchling needs a lot of support to be used effectively. Access to U-turn does not change that.
  15. Amaura

    Amaura suck my fuck fuckbois
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    A+ Tier
    Carvahna
    Chinchou
    Pantsman
    Tirtouga
    Fletchling

    A Tier
    Cottonee
    Trubbish
    Magnemite
    Drilbur
    Spritzee

    A- Tier
    Croagunk
    Archen
    Vullaby
    Timburr
    Dwebble
    Ponyta
    Porygon

    OK so basically, I put the Pokemon I see most near the top, including Carvahna (and I'll get to that in a minute). Here are my thoughts on them.

    Chinchou - Chinchou is quite honestly THE best Fletching Check. Unlike other Fletchling checks in Magnemite and Archen, it isnt easily walled depending on the moveset, or severely limited in what it can run. Its coverage is phenomenal, as the only thing that truly beats Chinchou, is other Chinchou. Ground-types cannot switch in without taking a Scald or Hydro Pump, basically boiiling the match down to a predition war (if you do not carry a Chinchou yourself). This ability to almost singlehandedly define the metagame puts it at A+ tier imo.

    Pantsman - Pantsman is just amazing. Yes it has checks and counters. However it is verstaile af, with coverage options to hit almost everything. Head Smash is the most unique of the bunch, OHKOing Vullaby after a +1. Poison Jab can 2hko Spritzee at +1, so it is an amazing Late game sweeper. Moxie is excellent as well, althouhg I prefer Shed Sin. This is probably just bias speaking, as I cans ee it going as neutral A, but its such a solid Mon that I can't really see it going any lower than neutral.

    Tirtouga - Tirtouga is another huge threat in this metagame. It commonly set s up on Pokemon such as Fletchling. The Sturdy Juice set is great and all, I prefer Solid Rock tbh, but that isn't its only set. A support can be used on teams that might leer towards the stall side. Not really much to say here, as it is an excellent late game sweeper.

    Fletchling - Fletchling is excellent. Not really much to say here.

    LOL fuck it ill elaborate later. This is too much work.
  16. Porpoise

    Porpoise

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    Alright, so enough of me bitching about Fletchling, how about Anorith? It's got pretty good Speed and Attack, it's not too frail with Eviolite, and it has Knock Off, Stealth Rock, and Rapid Spin. I could write more later but it should definitely be at least C rank or so. It's surprisingly pretty competent.
  17. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    A+:
    Archen
    Carvanha
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Timburr
    Magnemite (severely underrated fsr)

    reasoning (open)


    Archen is one of the only Fletchling checks that isn't picked off by Drilbur, it Defogs, and SRs, and checks Fighting-types. Along with Chinchou I think this should be S.

    Carvanha is the best late game sweeper in the metagame (Fletchling is a close #2), single most dangerous Pokemon that simply requires a few Knock Offs to support.

    Chinchou should be fucking S it's so bulky, decently strong, and versatile.

    Fletchling requires no explanation, best revenge killer, top-tier sweeper.

    Timburr lacks U-turn and Regenerator but makes up with Mach Punch and Guts.


    A:
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Tirtouga
    Spritzee

    reasoning (open)


    Drilburr bypasses Sturdy and Rapid Spins pretty reliably. With Murkrow gone, it's slightly less risky to spam EQ.

    Dwebble hazards are incredible and if you don't prepare for this, you're probably going to lose to it.

    Tirtouga alone shouldn't be A but because of Eviolite Tirtouga it deserves to be above most of the A- Pokemon.

    Spritzee checks Fighting-types, doesn't even take too much from Poison Jab on desperate ones, has Aromatherapy, Moonblast is awesome, and only needs some support to deal with Steels/Poisons.





    A-:
    Croagunk
    Ponyta
    Vullaby
    Cottonee
    Porygon (rip bw2 n00b)
    Trubbish
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Scraggy. Maybe. very average pkmn in this meta.

    reasoning (open)


    These Pokemon are just simply not as good due to SR, typing, or stats.
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  18. Merritt

    Merritt

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    Anorith has fantastic attack, good speed, and nothing over dwebble as a hazard lead or knock off user. Rapid spin is virtually the only thing it has over the other rock/bug, and if you plan to have a spinner, you typically don't want one that's weak to every single hazard. In addition, the three moves you listed don't allow anorith to take advantage of its good attack and speed, instead relegating it to a support role, where it is outclassed by dwebble. Even offensive Anorith is outclassed by the extremely rare SS dwebble. Unfortunately, it's completely overshadowed, and so should be D-rank.

    As for Heysup's unforgivable hating on Scraggy...

    196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

    +2 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 25-30 (108.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    TAKE THAT.

    EDIT: More clearly, Scraggy's a huge steamroller. You don't stop it fairly early, it's going to sweep you.
  19. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Why is fletchling switching in on a +2 Scraggy that isn't prior damaged or Knocked Off............? I swear every time you post an argument with calculations you make the opposition's case.

    Losing to Misdreavus, every Fighting-type, and Fletchling is probably another bad place to start.
  20. GlassGlaceon

    GlassGlaceon Immerse me in the wonder of Your love...
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    Can we first filter out the things that shouldn't be a? Trubbish should be the first to move down.
    Trubbish's pluses-
    • good check to some fighters in the meta( mienfoo, scraggy, based tyrogue)
    • pretty good check to pawniard
    • good switch-in to spritzee
    • 17 Speed
    • Strong STAB option, recovery w/ drain punch
    • spikes
    Trubbish's Minuses-
    • Setup Fodder for a crapton of things (Tirtouga, Timburr, Misdreavus, Gastly, Croagunk, Omanyte)
    • Setup fodder for Missy
    • Setup fodder for missy
    • Loses to some things it supposedly checks (Timburr can Bulk Up to get around it, machop can run EQ if we wanna go down to the lesser-used fighting types)
    • Subpar Bulk w/out eviolite, meaning unable to take strong neutral hits
    • Not a Very impressive atk stat
    • Loses to common spinners/defoggers
    - trubbish can set up spikes, just to have them spun away by drilbur/defogged by archen
    - trubbish is a good switch-in to mienfoo, but mienfoo can just U-turn out into a more favorable matchup.
    - trubbish takes up a teamslot that could be more effectively used by a mon like spritzee, who can actually successfully support the rest of the team with wish/aromatherapy, and is a good foo switch-in or croagunk, who can setup on foo and beat pawniard as a more offensive option
    As for the not able to take strong neutral hits:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Doduo Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 100 Def Trubbish: 23-29 (100 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Guts Taillow Facade (140 BP) vs. 116 HP / 100 Def Trubbish: 24-28 (104.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    236 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 116 HP / 100 Def Trubbish: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes :@@@@@

    Now for what trubbish CAN do :
    switch in reliably on mienfoo, pawniard sometimes, and switch in on spritzee

    Do you see my point?
    Trubbish is overhyped to all mess, and it only does a couple of things semo-well. I feel like it's lost worth in the metagame from it's initial hype, and that it should fall to B-rank because it can do stuff, but it can't do enough stuff to keep it from being a liablity sometimes.

    Just my opinion tho feel free to criticize
    Merritt likes this.
  21. The Shellder Smuggler

    The Shellder Smuggler Banned deucer.

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    Really small nitpick, but you forgot to add the eviolite in those calcs
  22. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary

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    Trubbish doesn't run Eviolite unless you have a crappy set
  23. The Shellder Smuggler

    The Shellder Smuggler Banned deucer.

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    Berry Juice is good and all but some people just happen to be different. Monkey see but monkey doesn't always do.
  24. The Avalanches

    The Avalanches Admiral Qwilfish
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    Trubbish with Eviolite is a glorified Koffing.
  25. Merritt

    Merritt

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    Scraggy does not lose to Misdreavus, actually, as nobody in their goddamn mind is going to set up up on a Misdreavus. Once again, as I said in the edit to make it more clear, Scraggy is a rolling ball that can destroy an entire team. And if it has moxie, Fletchling is the only thing that can really stop it, as you're unlikely to get a turn to come in on it. It 2HKOs virtually everything at +2, and has great coverage options. It can run poison jab to hit fairies, or it can do a different route and run zen headbutt. At that point, it beats almost everything, OHKOing every fighting type after stealth rock, and getting past Trubbish. Fletchling is the only reliable offensive check (and even then only if Scraggy has taken prior damage) while Snubbull is virtually the only reliable offensive counter, if it comes in on the dragon dance turn.

    +1 236+ Atk Scraggy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 26-32 (104 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    No Misdreavus can beat Scraggy unless it's either scarf (lol) or if you have it in when Scraggy's setting up, I don't care what bulk you run.

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