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chimp

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I kinda agree. I really like Scraggy, and don't get me wrong, its a great poke. But after using it I felt like it was either underpowered or too overhyped, for a number of reasons:

1) Its a set-up sweeper who is weak to Fletching.
That should say enough. In a race to attack first, Fletching, in this case, will always win. Of course, no one is going to set up Scraggy when Fletchling is still alive, but this is considering how fletch is generally used predominantly later in the game and will almost never be switching in. Most times I faced fletch it had either >50% of HP or was dead. They usually always stay alive until very late game due to their ability to force switches so hard. This really limits what Scraggy can do, sweeper wise, since it will usually be worn down by the time it has the opportunity to sweep and is still beaten by fighting types, scarfed misdreavus, trubbish, fletch, etc.

2) Its ability to check Misdreavus is shaky.
Misdreavus has two moves that really scare Scraggy. WoW and Dazzling Gleam. I know Scraggy usually runs with Shed Skin, but that has failed me on a number of occasions. You can't really set up on Misdreavus unless you absolutely know it doesn't have DG and you're feeling extremely lucky about a 30% chance, because one missed Shed Skin spells doom for Scraggy.

3) It has a hard time competing with other pokemon.
Aside from Scraggy's sweeping ability, I find little reason to use it over other fighting types, especially since I do not want any added bird/fighting weaknesses. I'd be more inclined to choosing Mienfoo or Timburr or Croagunk for my team before I go with Scraggy. Additionally, it overlaps with Pawniard. Who I feel is a better pick for Knock Off abuser while still having a good clean-up game.

Does Scraggy deserve A? Fuck yes. Does Scraggy deserve S? Fuck no.
 

Melon

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May as well give my opinion:

A+
Archen
Carvanha
Chinchou
Fletchling
Timburr
Magnemite
Tirtouga

A
Drilbur
Dwebble
Cottonee

A-
Croagunk
Spritzee
Ponyta
Vullaby
Scraggy
Porygon
Trubbish
 
A+ Tier
Archen
Carvahna
Chinchou
Fletchling
Timburr
Tirtouga

A Tier
Cottonee
Croagunk
Drilbur
Magnemite
Scraggy

A- Tier
Dwebble *
Ponyta
Porygon
Scraggy
Spritzee *
Trubbish *
Vullaby

Honestly, Vullaby and Ponyta should be in B Rank. Plain and simple.
Trubbish also has a high chance of becoming B Rank this meta.
I also really feel like Spritzee just isn't as good as it was before, and also has a chance for being B-rank.
Dwebble's time has come and gone. Dwebble is no longer the best lead in the tier, and if you think it is, you should really just stay in the MediKrow meta. This pokemon is very high on the candidates in A Rank ready to drop down to B Rank.
Chinchou being S-rank is highly, HIGHLY laughable; whenever I use it I am extremely underwhelmed by its performance. I actually really want to put it in A Rank, and remove it from A+ Rank. As for TCR's argument about Archen getting walled depending on the moveset ran, why does it matter if a wall gets walled..... It's a fucking wall. (Also, Archen has U-turn to aid in it being "walled" easily........)
 
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A+ Tier
Carvahna
Chinchou
Drilbur
Tirtouga
Fletchling

A Tier
Timburr
Cottonee
Archen
Spritzee
Croagunk

A- Tier
Scraggy
Magnemite (idk I don't see it enough or use it enough)
Trubbish
Vullaby
Dwebble
Ponyta
Porygon

quick justifications:
-Carv is one of the best cleaners in the game. weaken opposing prio and let him go crazy.
-Chin holds teams together and is one of the best flying resists.
-Drilbur is probably one of the hardest things to switch into. You need to get a good prediction with an earthquake or else your flying type eats a rock slide. Also best spinner
-Tirt has so many good sets it can run besides shell smash, but everyone still has to assume it's sturdysmash because of how dangerous it is
-everyone agrees fletch is A+ it seems

-Timburr is the bulkiest fighting type w/ access to bulk up. still weak to fletch/other flying types
-Cottonee is a hard stop to most tirtouga/carvanha and handles chinchou and tirt well. still doesn't like birdspam or pawniard.
-Archen doesn't get screwed by diglett, but it's still weak to rocks.
-Spritzee is the best wish passer, but doesn't wall like it used to.
-gunk at least checks most S/A+ mons well, but not fletch or drilbur.

-scraggy is setup sweeper weak to fletch. pairs well with pawniard, but fight weak hurts.
-idk shit about mag
-Trubbish is a great defensive pivot but is heavy setup bait for literally everything but pawniard
-Vullaby is a good defensive mon that can provide knock off support and another flying-type spam, but it's pretty easy to switch into.
-Dwebble one of the best spike stackers and can get a kill with a suicide smash set if you really want, but it's not sweeping any time soon.
-Pony is a good defensive pivot/fighting switch in, but is rock weak and only has 8 PP to heal itself.
-Pory is fighting weak and has no resistances (besides the ghost immunity), which hampers its ability to wall. still a good switch in for missy/chou

I'll debate stuff individually if you guys bother replying but I'm going to bed.
 
i refuse to accept the existence of a system that places either archen or spritzee anywhere high

goddamn i hate those pokemon they fucking suck

also i will help out with this / other stuff after finals!! expect the same from prem and macle :))
 

prem

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i mean im running this... im the only one doing work here for a long time cause cork has been busy...
 
A+ Tier
Carvahna
Chinchou
Tirtouga
Fletchling

A Tier
Timburr
Cottonee
Archen
Croagunk
Drilbur
Porygon
Dwebble

A- Tier
Scraggy
Magnemite
Trubbish
Vullaby
Ponyta
Spritzee
 

tcr

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I actually really want to put it in A Rank, and remove it from A+ Rank. As for TCR's argument about Archen getting walled depending on the moveset ran, why does it matter if a wall gets walled..... It's a fucking wall. (Also, Archen has U-turn to aid in it being "walled" easily........)
? If you think Archen is a wall than you obviously have no clue what a wall is. Archen walls nothing outside of Fletchling. Archen is an offensive check to Fletchling. At most its a semi bulky pivot, and even then is weak to too many shit to be a good wall. It loses to chinchou unless it runs eq, same with pawniard. It loses to fighting-types unless it runs acro. Rock STAB is a garbage stab tbh, only hitting flying effectively, and being resisted by fighting and steel types. Archen wants to run eq / r slide / roost / u turn / acro / sr all on the same set, and it just doesnt work. None of its moves mesh together quite right, requiring too much support to be as effective as possible. Evio sets put more pressure on the team than it takes off, because you need good defog support in order for archen to be an effective pivot and check to flying types. Idk where you got that archen is a wall lol, and if you use it as such then odds are you dont know the metagame or just like using gimmicky crap. Spritzee is a wall. Vullaby is a wall. Porygon is a wall. Archen / mienfoo/ chinchou are all pivots, designed to gain momentum. Archen just has no defineable niche outside of beating fletchling. Thats the only reason it is popular, and thats not enough to push it to a+. It requires too much support to do much effectively, is easily worn down. Yeah you can always roost off of fletchlings switching out. But then the opponent brings in something like pawniard, which immedaitely threatens archen, and someone on your team eats a knock off. Playing defense af almost never works in this meta, and will most certainly not work when the team has a pokemon that is easily forced out. It loses to pokemon such as pawniard or misdreavus. Im sorry, but that is most certainly not A+ material, and quite honestly isnt even A material. Archen is too overhyped.

Also this is beside the point but i dont really appreciate the subliminal jab at me hidden in your post.
 
so everyone seems to be doing these?
A+ Tier
Timburr
Chinchou
Tirtouga
Fletchling

A Tier
Carvanha
Cottonee
Archen
Croagunk
Drilbur
Porygon
Magnemite

A- Tier
Scraggy
Trubbish
Vullaby
Ponyta
Spritzee

Dwebble - want to see this in b tier, pretty bad this meta from what i've seen
also would like to see foongus in A-, its definitely as good or better than those mons this meta
will edit in reasoning if anyone wants me to but most of these are self-explanatory
 
Archen ... is weak to too many shit to be a good wall ... Vullaby is a wall.
TCR said:
It requires too much support to do much effectively, is easily worn down. Yeah you can always roost off ... But then the opponent brings in something like [archen or misdreavus], which immedaitely threatens [vullaby], and someone on your team eats a knock off [or Misdreavus sets up]. Playing defense af almost never works in this meta, and will most certainly not work when the team has a pokemon that is easily forced out. It loses to pokemon such as [archen] and misdreavus.
Archen beats: Fletchling, Ponyta, Pawniard**, Chinchou**, Mienfoo*, Croagunk, Cottonee, Vullaby, Magnemite**, Scraggy*, Timburr* and Dwebble.
* = Acrobatics | ** = Earthquake

Vullaby beats: I am having a bit of trouble here. Someone help me out?

Quite frankly, the only "wall," by your definition, that you listed who is even good this meta is Porygon, and this is only because it walls the biggest threat of the metagame in Misdreavus. The others are quite honestly falling out viability, and I can see all of them being B rank. Archen beats more things than Vullaby wishes it could ever beat.

On a side note, why does blarajan always have the 2nd best avatar, only losing to prem

EDIT: As for the subliminal jab, I honestly don't know what you're referring to. I am really sorry you felt as though I meant to offend you. D:
 
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tcr

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Archen does not actually beat Ponyta, as Ponyta outspeeds and Archen cannot switch in due to Wiill o Wisp. Archen is a joke after a Will o Wisp, and IIRC is beaten by wild charge. This is beside the point that Ponyta is complete butt and should be around B neutral tier. Pawniard beats Archen, and forces it out, requiring something on your team to take a Knock Off or a Iron Head. When Archen carries Defog, it has to carry Earthquake, which only furthers my point of it needing too many moves at once. It loses to Chinchou, again if it doesnt carry Earthquake, and even then Chinchou lives an Earthquake from fully invested Attack (I used 20 as a base point). Thats UNINVESTED. defensive sets, which are extremely common, may not be able to switch in, but ill get to that in a second. 20 Atk Rock Slide doesnt even beat Vullaby, only 2hkoing, making a Knock Off or a Defog easy. Again though, Vullaby isnt an offensive threat lol. It loses to Magnemite? It cannot beat +1 Scraggy, meaning it cannot switch in, so therefore it does not wall it. It cannot take a Knock Off from Timburr, (it doesnt want to take a Knock Off anyway) and it again loses to Dwebble.

Quite honestly do you know what a wall is? A wall is a Pokemon that can "wall" a significant portion of the metagame. Vullaby beats almost every Fighting-type, Porygon walls almost any Special Attacker, Spritzee walls almost any special attacker, etc. Archen cannot switch in on anything, because Defeatist is a shit ability, and it loses to almost everything with Stealth Rocks up. Eviolite sets are limited as fuck, as they rarely run Acrobatics (IIRC me and possibly Heysup are the only people who run that shit set) and are almost always forced to run Roost. Berry Juice sets are offensive yes, but they are NOT A WALL. Again, a wall needs to be able to switch in, often only being 3hkoed by most threats, and almost always being able to recover (Roost Vullaby, Slack Off Slowpoke, Wish Spritzee, Recover Porygon, THESE are walls). Yeah Archen gets roost. Archen is however too weak to be an effective wall, as most attacks that are neutral will resist it. Its only niche is beating Fletchling. This does not guarantee it A+ spot, no matter how much people hype Fletchling. Tirtouga and Magnemite are higher in my opinion because they run other sets that are not solely limited to being a Fletchling check. Tirtouga is an obvious Shell Smasher, and is probably the best offensive check to Fletchling, as Aqua jet koes Diglett after Stealth Rocks, making it reliable as fuck. Magnemite is a blanket check to almost any threat ever, as it hits super hard. It also has enough resistances with its stell-typing that it can switch in on resisted and neutral hits quite often, and force something out.

Seriously, I am starting to question your knowledge of the metagame and even your knowledge of competitive pokemon when you start to think that Archen is a wall. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you meant Offensive Pivot which can be similar (Offensive pivots include things like Timburr, or Mienfoo). These things are vastly different, in nature and in how they play. Typically for Archen you want to run U-turn / Acrobatics / [Rock Slide / Earthquake] / [Stealth Rock / Roost / Defog / w/e] for your moveset. Like I said, it suffers from wanting to run 8+ moves at a time, and is easily picked off. Its A rank, yeah, but its low A rank, and I guarantee you that if Fletchling DID NOT EXIST, then Archen would be B rank, possibly neutral B rank. Its a good pokemon, dont get me wrong, but its not a wall and you cannot treat is as such (which you seem to be doing a bad job of honestly, since you do not seem to know the definition or function of a wall).

As to me never getting to Carvahna (no one brought this up but w/e), it is an excellent offensive Pokemon. It breaks walls like theres no tomorrow, often getting 1/ 2 kills a match, possibly more. You can sweep with it but, I dont recommend it, as I like it as a wallbreaker with Aqua Jet / Waterfall / Destiny Bond/ Crunch. Its so powerful, and forces so many things out and puts so much pressure on the opponents team, that I cannot think of any Pokemon that could do its job better.
 

Rowan

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my go

A+
Chinchou - obvious, one of best pivots
Dwebble - amazing hazard setter, makes HO teams so formidable
Fletchling - obvious tbh, do i need explain?
Scraggy - fantastic late game sweeper once fletch dies, has different ways to get round its checks/counters
Tirtouga - same as scraggy tbh, not weak to acrofletch so a great sweeper, so many set up opportunities, just needs a bit of support in weakening some checks, but can run moves like hydro pump or hp fire to get round shit

A
Archen - no way is this a+, with defeatist, but it's still strong as fuck and has a fantastic unique typing
Carvanha - frail as fuck and struggles to take down bulkier threats, but still a great late game sweeper for weakened teams.
Cottonee - no.1 support mon with such an amazing typing, stopping some of the most threatening mons and is a general annoyance for so many teams
Drilbur - best spinner and strong EQ is a threat especially paired with swords dance
Porygon - best bulky mon, reliable recovery, fantastic all-round check to many things if you keep it healthy, particularly misdreavus
Timburr - great fighting-type, has too much competition from mienfoo, but still an amazing mon

A-
Croagunk - not strong enough for A, but good enough typing for A-
Magnemite - ceebs to argue anymore, but it's been brought up for B quite a bit anyway so w/e
Ponyta - see magnemite
Spritzee - no offensive pressure at all - yeah it can support but it's like the bronzor of last gen, it just gets taken advantage of by other shit
Trubbish - walled by too much shit for A, gets set up on by quite a bit of stuff

B
Vullaby - not good enough for B, too much 4mss - needs hp fight/heat wave to be a good defogger, but that means losing flying-stab - if the opponent realises that fighting types can actually take advantage of it.


imo, lists with no explanation are fucking dumb, don't bother.

i will be helping much more after finals as well, don't worry i'm not abandoning everyone
 

Merritt

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if you set up Scraggy to like +3 without the opponent doing anything to you then I think I'm going to go ahead and put like dratini in A, i guess lets not stop there lets put krabby and other random set up Pokemon that get KOed by the most common threats unless they are given like 3 turns or fed 3 weakened Pokemon before the opponent switches in one of their counters (which every team has at least a couple).

And I didn't say Misdreavus counters Scraggy ffs I said it beats it. You get OHKOed by THE most common Pokemon and lose to most other members as well.

This argument is silly especially when you post calcs the way you do (I bet if I was trying to argue that +2 Pawniard beats Azurill you would post a calc of a Belly Drummed Azurill with TR in effect). It's simple that if you've used Scraggy you know it's underwhelming in this metagame in comparison to the rest of A and according to their definitions. There are lots of Pokemon in B that are more viable than Scraggy tbqh and that's without even looking too hard.
Simple difference between Scraggy and Dratini is that Scraggy has good bulk, a better typing, and only needs to set up once to get to +3. Moxie is an extremely viable option for an offensive Scraggy, and lets it kill everything once it gets going. The main point is, I'd love it if you could give me three counters for Scraggy. Not counters to scarf scraggy, which has quite a few, but three Pokemon which, under stealth rock and against a +1 Scraggy, can take any move it can viably run (yes, that would include Zen Headbutt and Poison Jab) twice and OHKO. Gimmicks don't count, as if Scraggy's forcing you to run gimmicks then it deserves A+ rank.

Misdreavus will beat Dragon Dance Scraggy only under two circumstances. 1) If it's facing an unboosted Scraggy, which means that the other person is probably using Scraggy badly or 2) if Misdreavus is scarfed. And hopefully we can agree that scarfed Misdreavus is a poor set in general.

Please stop resorting to the same thing you do every single time we disagree, AKA saying that I have no idea what I'm talking about. It just makes you look like an asshole without contributing anything to the discussion. As for the definition, Scraggy certainly sweeps a majority of the metagame. Also, if you had ever used Azurill you would know it doesn't get Belly Drum.

I kinda agree. I really like Scraggy, and don't get me wrong, its a great poke. But after using it I felt like it was either underpowered or too overhyped, for a number of reasons:

1) Its a set-up sweeper who is weak to Fletching.
That should say enough. In a race to attack first, Fletching, in this case, will always win. Of course, no one is going to set up Scraggy when Fletchling is still alive, but this is considering how fletch is generally used predominantly later in the game and will almost never be switching in. Most times I faced fletch it had either >50% of HP or was dead. They usually always stay alive until very late game due to their ability to force switches so hard. This really limits what Scraggy can do, sweeper wise, since it will usually be worn down by the time it has the opportunity to sweep and is still beaten by fighting types, scarfed misdreavus, trubbish, fletch, etc.

2) Its ability to check Misdreavus is shaky.
Misdreavus has two moves that really scare Scraggy. WoW and Dazzling Gleam. I know Scraggy usually runs with Shed Skin, but that has failed me on a number of occasions. You can't really set up on Misdreavus unless you absolutely know it doesn't have DG and you're feeling extremely lucky about a 30% chance, because one missed Shed Skin spells doom for Scraggy.

3) It has a hard time competing with other pokemon.
Aside from Scraggy's sweeping ability, I find little reason to use it over other fighting types, especially since I do not want any added bird/fighting weaknesses. I'd be more inclined to choosing Mienfoo or Timburr or Croagunk for my team before I go with Scraggy. Additionally, it overlaps with Pawniard. Who I feel is a better pick for Knock Off abuser while still having a good clean-up game.

Does Scraggy deserve A? Fuck yes. Does Scraggy deserve S? Fuck no.
1) In your own words, "Of course, no one is going to set up Scraggy when Fletchling is still alive". Your own argument is weak, as essentially you're saying that it's fine if Scraggy kills something, Fletchling can just force it out. Let me put it another way, Scraggy's least bulky Dragon Dance set (0/36) has a 6.3% chance to be OHKOed by acrobatics. In comparison, set up stealth rocks and the slightly bulkier set (36/156+/36/0-/36/212), though it has the same chance of surviving Fletchling's acrobatics, the only difference being that it doesn't matter if rocks are up now, OHKOs with drain punch 93.6% of the time at +1. Those are good odds, and I personally would bet on Scraggy winning.

Beyond that, Mienfoo is also weak to Fletchling, but maintains S rank. While the two, Mienfoo and Scraggy, perform different roles, Fletchling is still just as big a threat to Mienfoo, allowing the opponent to gain momentum as you're forced to switch, and Scraggy actually can survive an acrobatics. Incidentally, Scraggy is virtually the only fighting type that can check Fletchling, due to intimidate, which is huge. Sure, Fletchling checks Scraggy, but Scraggy can check it right back, even with minimal defense investment.

-1 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (37.5% without)

As for the other things you say beat it, Zen Headbutt, lol Scarf Missie, Zen Headbutt, and I covered Fletchling.

2) This is valid, however it's also completely pointless. Would you have Pawniard check Archen if Pawniard isn't scarfed? Scraggy doesn't need to check Misdreavus, Misdreavus needs to be worried about checking Scraggy. Setting up on a Pokemon that runs a move that Scraggy is 4x weak to is, pardon me if I come off as rude, a completely moronic decision that makes me question your mental stability. With the huge number of things in the meta that scraggy can set up on, why would it need to set up on Misdreavus?

3) Once again, quoting you "Aside from Scraggy's sweeping ability, I find little reason to use it over other fighting types". With that statement, you dismissed the reason to use Scraggy, which is not a good way to argue. Here, I'll respond in the same vein. Aside from Fletchling's ability to revenge kill or sweep the rare unprepared team, I see little reason to use it over other flying types. Do you see how bad that sounds?

It doesn't overlap with Mienfoo or Timburr or Croagunk or Pawniard aside from its typing and moves it uses. None of these Pokemon are sweepers, nor do they have the fantastic defenses and great offenses Scraggy lays claim to. It's like saying that I run Fletchling, so I don't want to run Archen.
 

Rowan

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since when is scarf missy bad?

timburr, spritzee, cottonee all beat +1 scraggy, that's 3

nevertheless, scraggy only needs fletch and cottonee to die and then it easily work around its counters. it's an odd sweeper in that it needs to come in early-mid game and spam knock off to support itself. but eventually it can pretty much always wear down its counters to the point where it can sweep at +1. also, there's a bulky spread that always beats eviolite foo unless it has HJK (idk, what it is apt-get made it i think)

also, scraggy sholdn't be compared to other fighting-types sice it's a late game sweeper, which the others aren't.

note: FFS stop saying Pokemon are bad 'cos they can't set up on certain other Pokemon. e.g. scraggy is bad 'cos it can't set up on missy. torchic is bad cos it can't set up on chinchou. i've seen stuff like this and its dumb af
 
Simple difference between Scraggy and Dratini is that Scraggy has good bulk, a better typing, and only needs to set up once to get to +3. Moxie is an extremely viable option for an offensive Scraggy, and lets it kill everything once it gets going. The main point is, I'd love it if you could give me three counters for Scraggy. Not counters to scarf scraggy, which has quite a few, but three Pokemon which, under stealth rock and against a +1 Scraggy, can take any move it can viably run (yes, that would include Zen Headbutt and Poison Jab) twice and OHKO. Gimmicks don't count, as if Scraggy's forcing you to run gimmicks then it deserves A+ rank.
Well you obviously missed the point of that analogy but the point was that you're ignoring the difficulty a Pokemon would have to set up in the first place and then ignoring the difficulty of sweeping once it's actually set up. For example, it can only set up on a handful of A and B Pokemon, and because I know a wall of spam calculations are coming, just please make sure they actually lose to Scraggy and let it get a +1 for basically no cost.

And then once it is set up, you wanted 3 counters to +1 Scraggy that got that way without being scratched? Not sure why I'm humoring this, but Spritzee, Mienfoo and Timburr off the top of my head.

Remember Dragon Dance is +1 Atk / +1 Spe you're acting like its +3 / +1.

Please stop resorting to the same thing you do every single time we disagree, AKA saying that I have no idea what I'm talking about. It just makes you look like an asshole without contributing anything to the discussion. As for the definition, Scraggy certainly sweeps a majority of the metagame.
You tell me not to make it seem like you have no idea what you're talking about and then you say:

Also, if you had ever used Azurill you would know it doesn't get Belly Drum.
And hopefully we can agree that scarfed Misdreavus is a poor set in general.
The former being a case-in-point of my critique on your logic. The latter is a perfect example of why my arguments come off as "you have no idea what you're talking about". You literally say something that's factually incorrect. Not only did you say Scarf Missy is a poor set (which is a baseless value judgment) but you added "we can all agree" which is simply presumptuous and in all probability, very very wrong. I never say you have no idea what you're talking about, I just correct you and it comes off that way.

note: FFS stop saying Pokemon are bad 'cos they can't set up on certain other Pokemon. e.g. scraggy is bad 'cos it can't set up on missy. torchic is bad cos it can't set up on chinchou. i've seen stuff like this and its dumb af
How is saying something has a hard time finding time to set up dumb af. Its dumb af to ignoring the fact that things need to set up. Otherwise Zigzagoon and every other Belly Drum Pokemon would be S rank.
 
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Can we please stop acting like having few cunters makes something a-rank? Scraggy has a hard time acting as the juggernaut it was hyped up to be (including by myself). The prevalence of the two common support fairies, double fighting teams (timburr in particular) AND Fletchling have held it back. I strongly agree with corkscrew on this: there's been some pretty faulty arguments on how something is bad. However, Heysup is right about why assuming your opponent is an idiot is rather ridiculous.
 

Rowan

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It's not stupid to talk about a Pokemon's ability to set up, I've just seen many arguments in this thread get into pointless discussion about whether pokemon x can set up on a specific Pokemon or not. We all know Scraggy can't set up on Missy, but there are tonnes which it can set up on such as Pawniard, Chinchou, Magnemite, Tirtouga, Porygon, Vullaby (if lacking Brave Bird), Ferroseed etc...

If you're going to say a Pokemon is bad because it can't set up, you can't just give 1 example
 
It's not stupid to talk about a Pokemon's ability to set up, I've just seen many arguments in this thread get into pointless discussion about whether pokemon x can set up on a specific Pokemon or not. We all know Scraggy can't set up on Missy, but there are tonnes which it can set up on such as Pawniard, Chinchou, Magnemite, Tirtouga, Porygon, Vullaby (if lacking Brave Bird), Ferroseed etc...

If you're going to say a Pokemon is bad because it can't set up, you can't just give 1 example
I just read the last two pages and no one did that.

The closest was that in one of my post I said it loses to Misdreavus, Fletchling, and common fighting-types and if you think that's not a good reason to keep Scraggy down then we need to take another look at why a the majority of the top tier Pokemon don't count as "majority of the metgame". Frankly, even if someone said "it can't set up on Misdreavus" as the sole reason to keep it down and not just a point of a bigger argument, it would still hold weight since Misdreavus is on what, like 50% of teams? I forget the stats but you get the point.

Standard Moxie Scraggy can't even set up on Chinchou (Thunder Wave/Dazzling Gleam), Tirtouga (Shell Smash Tirt beats it 1v1 100% of the time), Porygon (Thunder Wave), and Vullaby without a flying move or whirlwind shouldn't exist. Ferroseed has Thunder Wave too, while Magnemite can easily Volt Switch away and severely dent it.

It's not strong enough unless your opponent is a buffoon or you run like Dual Screens.
 

Merritt

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Well you obviously missed the point of that analogy but the point was that you're ignoring the difficulty a Pokemon would have to set up in the first place and then ignoring the difficulty of sweeping once it's actually set up. For example, it can only set up on a handful of A and B Pokemon, and because I know a wall of spam calculations are coming, just please make sure they actually lose to Scraggy and let it get a +1 for basically no cost.

And then once it is set up, you wanted 3 counters to +1 Scraggy that got that way without being scratched? Not sure why I'm humoring this, but Spritzee, Mienfoo and Timburr off the top of my head.

Remember Dragon Dance is +1 Atk / +1 Spe you're acting like its +3 / +1.

How is saying something has a hard time finding time to set up dumb af. Its dumb af to ignoring the fact that things need to set up. Otherwise Zigzagoon and every other Belly Drum Pokemon would be S rank.
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 12-15 (46.1 - 57.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(And just for Rowan +1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 28-36 (121.7 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

I find the first especially ironic, considering that I actually stated that you should account for Poison Jab or Zen Headbutt in your calcs. And before you say a word, yes I am aware that the defensive spreads on Timburr and Mienfoo are not the best, but I added the extra bulk simply to make my point. In addition, both Timburr and Mienfoo stand a good chance of being straight OHKOed by HJK after rocks, making them not even checks. Checks are not counters.

I want to point something out to you. You do realize that I never said +3, right? The highest attack boost I ever did was +2, which is essentially a moxie boost after a kill. That's entirely realistic, considering how difficult it is to counter it.

I won't spam calcs this time, except for the ones I anticipate you disagree on.

Pawniard- all Scraggy, although it loses eviolite
Mienfoo- except HJK or Scarf Foo. Intimidate Scraggy especially. +1 HJK OHKOes.
Archen- all Scraggy, barring Berry Juice activated Archen, especially intimidate Scraffy. 55 BP acrobatics doesn't do much, and Berry Juice Archen is OHKOed by Drain Punch after rocks.
Chinchou- barring Dazzling Gleam (which is rarely seen). Only Shed Skin Scraggy should attempt it, however, due to either scald burns or the uncommon thunder wave
Drilbur - all Scraggy. Receives minor damage doing so. Intimidate Scraggy comes out almost unscratched.
Dwebble - all Scraggy, although it loses Eviolite in the process
Porygon - Shed Skin Scraggy only
Tirtouga - Both variants, if Scraggy doesn't try to set up on a Smashed Tirtouga.
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 44-54 (209.5 - 257.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Shed Skin and Intimidate especially (Shed Skin mostly for scald on defensive Tirtouga)
Trubbish - Only Zen Headbutt Scraggy
Vullaby- Only non whirlwind variants. After rock damage, and Brave Bird recoil, HJK OHKOes.
Ferroseed - Only Shed Skin Scraggy
Houndour - all Scraggy.
Lickitung - all Scraggy
Munchlax - all Scraggy. Shed Skin especially, to avoid body slam paralysis.
Onix - only non-Taunt versions
Slowpoke - only Shed Skin Scraggy
Snover - all Scraggy. Scarf Snover has a speed tie with Scraggy, but does not have a guaranteed 2HKO with blizzard.
Torchic - or especially whatever it passes to. With the correct move, it dies to a +1 HJK/Knock Off
Vulpix - except Scarf Vulpix, all Scraggy.


In C rank and lower, there are even more things for Scraggy to set up on. While Fletchling may be able to come in afterwards on most of them, that means that now your opponent has to play your game. If they lose Fletchling, then suddenly they're screwed, so they have to play Fletchling very cautiously. Defining the tempo of the game is extremely good.

Big difference between something like Zigzagoon and Scraggy? Scraggy actually has bulk and isn't checked by the two most common things in the meta.

Don't add words to my sentences. You (as in you, Heysup, not everybody in the Little Cup meta) have given indication before that a 19 speed mon holding a scarf is a gimmick. But if people are forced to run gimmicks to beat you, then that's an indication of metagame shaping, not just being a good mon.
 

chimp

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Big difference between something like Zigzagoon and Scraggy? Scraggy actually has bulk and isn't checked by the two most common things in the meta.
Except... it is?

Forgive me I've I misunderstood, but those first those calcs seem to only apply for switching in on an attack from an already boosted scrag. No one is going to let you set up THEN switch their counter in. So you'll end up doing damage to spritzee only to get moonblasted. Same goes for Mienfoo and Timburr.
 

Merritt

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Except... it is?

Forgive me I've I misunderstood, but those first those calcs seem to only apply for switching in on an attack from an already boosted scrag. No one is going to let you set up THEN switch their counter in. So you'll end up doing damage to spritzee only to get moonblasted. Same goes for Mienfoo and Timburr.
Misdreavus doesn't check it unless it's scarf, which is incredibly predictable - if they're putting in Missie against a Scraggy that's at +1, it's likely scarfed. Pawniard doesn't check it, and Mienfoo doesn't check it unless it's scarf HJK either.

Besides the fact that I asked for a counter to +1 Scraggy, Scraggy can still beat them if they try to switch in on the setup turn.

236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So, while Spritzee can take two, Scraggy can easily switch out after doing almost 50% damage to something that walls the typically mono attacker Spritzee.
 
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