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LC Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Rowan, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. BigCup

    BigCup

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    I agree with that too. Riolu is still great with Bulk Up + Copycat Drain Punch Crunch
  2. Brosb4Ho-oh's

    Brosb4Ho-oh's

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    I think Diglett should stay in B rank because it functions very similarly to Wynaut, come in on a good opportunity and make a kill. However, Diglett's lack of bulk and weakness to priority and hazards stop it from going any farther. More often then not, Diglett will just kill a poke, and die later to death fodder, priority, or hazards. Diglett perfectly fits the LC B rank description by being great in the metagame by OHKOing Key threats like chinchou and pawniard, it's postive traits in it's speed outshine his negative traits in its lack of bulk, and it requires some team support to help aid it's weaknesses in hazards and priority. Thus, this justifies Diglett as B-rank.
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  3. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary

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    responding to one of Rowan's earlier posts, just put Stunky in D rank for now. all it can really do is defog and pursuit trap a few things which makes it usable, but there are better things and it doesn't have any niche.

    also so I can get the icon for my sig sooner
  4. Delibird is Amazing

    Delibird is Amazing

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    stunky doesn't fart enough

    it can't learn defog, only skuntank does.
  5. Kappaten

    Kappaten

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    Stunky definitely gets defog.
    Mienfoo, BigCup, unfixable and 3 others like this.
  6. Jac

    Jac tfw haters are present
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    incoming long post


    I love Snover but all it's really good for is revenging not Fletching bird mons like Archen and Doduo and luring Pawniard with HP Fight. That is pretty much it.

    Buneary is awesome dont hate! Although it has meh defenses and WONDERFUL support options. I personally use an Agilipass set with Return and Encore and it does work very well on shutting down TWavers since Limber blocks paralysis. Personally it can stay where it is. It's not like it's killing everything and it's not like it's dead weight. It's a fantastic support mon that simply doesnt have too little movesets to work with imo.

    Tyrunt isnt that great imo. DD + Fangs is great but it has to run Evio and is outsped by a lot of things. I honestly dont know what it's doing before hand. Fighting mons can just come in and Drain Punch and be done right? I guess you could run Aerial Ace to beat Fighting-types?

    Show Hide

    +1 204+ Atk Tyrunt Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    but...
    196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 204+ Atk Tyrunt Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    but...
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 204+ Atk Tyrunt Aerial Ace vs. 212 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 16-20 (66.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    but...
    28 Atk Croagunk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    You risk getting KO'd from their priorities, Well Fake Out from Meinfoo shouldnt really help it's case
    236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 1-2 (4.5 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

    ...lol so you beat Mienfoo but not Timburr or Croagunk.



    Tyrunt can stay where it is for now.

    I agree, Riolu can get very far with Protect + Copycat. I've had one annihilate my Voltturn with the right support. But within that it's stuck against Status users in my opinion. Missy / Chinchou will not think twice to burn and paralyze him to make it easier to deal with. It can still copy and turn the tables on them (well Chinchou cant be para'd)
  7. Mienfoo

    Mienfoo

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    I think that Stunky should atleast be a D or a C. The fact that he can defog AND pursuit trap is good enough for atleast D. Also it gets Sucker Punch as well so you can play some mindgames with your opponent. Also, I know alot of people will disagree with me on this but I think Bunnelby should get A. Pop a scarf on it and it can SWEEP teams! I know Misdreavus stops that due to being immune to Return/Earthquake, and taking resisted damage from U-turn. I still think that Bunnelby deserves A. If it gets a physical dark move any time soon (mainly Knock Off) I think it has possibility to EASILY get S.
  8. GlassGlaceon

    GlassGlaceon heavily armed like i'm ambipom
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    It has Thief
    for Missy
  9. Mienfoo

    Mienfoo

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    Yeah, I forgot about Thief, but Missy takes those like a champ.
  10. apt-get

    apt-get platinum happy
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    nice try Mienfoo, hyping bunnelby to get even less drain punch switches...
  11. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    Rowan prem Now that Murkrow and Meditite are banned, could we include High, Mid and Low ranks for each rank (apart from S- and D-Rank).
    This would help organize the current ranks and would make it a bit easier for newer players to understand which Pokemon are better than others.
  12. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    i was gonna make a post about it soon but didnt cause ive been busy with finals studying. we are going to start doing this but i want to do it in a specific order because i dont have the time to go through everything.


    we are gonna do A ranks split right now. so any pokemon in A rank can be told to go to A- / A / A+

    I swear pls do not talk about anything in b rank right now that can happen later
  13. The Avalanches

    The Avalanches Weakness Policy Tynamo

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    The things that pop out for me for A+ are Scraggy and Tirtouga. They seem just a bit more useful and versatile than their other A-Rank brethren. They're both excellent sweepers, and Tirtouga's potential as a support Pokemon is only now being realized. I'll think of what else should move, but for now, these two should definitely be considered.
  14. Corporal Levi

    Corporal Levi foongus
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    So do we just list what we think for now and debate later

    A+
    Archen
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Timburr

    A
    Carvanha
    Croagunk (A-?)
    Cottonee
    Drilbur (A-?)
    Porygon
    Tirtouga (A+?)

    A-
    Dwebble
    Magnemite (A?)
    Ponyta
    Scraggy (A?)
    Spritzee (A?)
    Trubbish (A?)
    Vullaby

    Some which may seem debatable but I strongly think should be placed in a given category:

    Archen - Archen's combination of moves, typing and stats make it incredibly easy to fit on a variety of teams. Its movepool contains coveted support moves in Knock Off, Stealth Rock and Defog, roost for more survivability, and a truckload of offensive options, including but not limited to Rock Slide, Rock Tomb, Earthquake, U-Turn, and Acrobatics. It's also one of the few counters to every single popular variant of Fletchling that doesn't get taken out by Diglett, which is a fairly notable niche. All of this is backed by an enormous base 112 Attack. Although Defeatist and only decent Speed hold it back, I think Archen's strengths still warrant it a placement in A+.

    Timburr - Excellent bulk, solid damage output and an adequate offensive movepool allow Timburr to pose as a massive headache to a variety of teams. Trubbish doesn't actually counter Timburr if it switches in on a Bulk Up, especially if Gunk Shot poisons for an even more brutal Drain Punch. I think Mach Punch, superior physical bulk and great offensive abilities are enough for Timburr to be comparable to Mienfoo in terms of viability, even if the lack of Regenerator makes it a less effective pivot.

    Cottonee - In a metagame where high-risk high-reward sweepers such as Zigzagoon and Omanyte are all very legitimate choices, Cottonee is able to stand out by both helping allies set up and making opponents more wary of doing so themselves; just Cottonee's mere presence on a team is often enough. Other than that, Cottonee still has its brilliant supportive movepool to utilize, and more importantly, phenomenal typing, which allows it to check a variety of threats such as Drilbur and Scraggy that many teams could otherwise have significant amounts of trouble doing so.

    Dwebble - The issue with Dwebble is how prepared for it is nowadays, and the difficulty it has getting around designated checks and counters, preventing it from being much more than simply a dead weight, although if the team is lacking something to get around Dwebble, it still does a wonderful job, of course. That's really it.
    queenlucy and Aerow like this.
  15. Tahu

    Tahu

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    Preliminary list:

    A+:
    Archen
    Carvanha
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Scraggy
    Timburr
    Tirtouga

    A:
    Croagunk
    Cottonee
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Porygon
    Trubbish

    A-:
    Magnemite
    Ponyta
    Spritzee
    Vullaby

    I might edit in reasoning for this later, but I don't have time to do so right now.
  16. Merritt

    Merritt

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    A+:
    Carvanha (unsure)
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Scraggy
    Tirtouga

    A:
    Cottonee
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Porygon
    Trubbish
    Archen
    Timburr

    A-:
    Magnemite
    Ponyta
    Spritzee
    Vullaby
    Croagunk

    Got so many water types in A+ ._.

    Archen, though good, suffers from a mediocre typing and has the main hyped niche of countering fletchling. While that's notable in the extreme, Defeatist and lowish speed hurt it enough in my eyes to just have it plain old A rank. Nobody's going to be arguing Archen going up to S anytime soon.

    Carvanha is a hard one. On one hand, it's fast and powerful, has decent coverage, and even has access to priority. On the other, fletchling can bypass its speed and usually murder it. It can sweep teams lategame very easily, however.
  17. The Avalanches

    The Avalanches Weakness Policy Tynamo

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    A+
    Archen
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Scraggy
    Timburr
    Tirtouga

    A
    Carvanha
    Cottonee
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Magnemite
    Porygon

    A-
    Croagunk
    Ponyta
    Spritzee
    Trubbish
    Vullaby

    I've explained Tirt and Scrag.
    Archen stops the FletchLett core which is pretty huge, imo. It can mangle opponents with its monstrous attack, and rock, defog and all that. I don't even think Defeatist can keep it from A+

    Chinchou is extremely versatile and can be thrown on nearly any team. It is pretty bulky and can account for most of the Ground and Flying-types in the tier.

    Fletchling is a maniac who can tear up teams and it's easily my favourite sweeper right now.

    Timburr is bulky as hell, and it can still hammer Pawniard, Tirtouga, and a whole bunch of useful Pokemon in the tier. I think it only takes like 60% from Fletchling Acrobatics too.
  18. Porpoise

    Porpoise

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    Can we stop pretending Fletchling is that good? It's good, but it's definitely not THAT good. It's a pretty good revenge killer and a really bad sweeper and it dies when the wind hits it funny. It also has very common checks and counters in Chinchou, Pawniard, Tirtouga, Archen and Onix, and there are less common but also useful ways to deal with it like Flame Body, Ferroseed, anything else with Priority (since Fletchling is kind of slow when using anything other than Flying).

    Fletchling is really a one-trick pony that is extremely overhyped. It can do it's job and it can do it's job well, but it relies entirely on it's teammates to clear the field, because it's mediocre attack and speed and nonexistant bulk won't carry it on anything that isn't weak to Flying and has some form of usable bulk.
  19. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary

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    umm why are people making lists for this? why are we not doing single or double nominations like we've always been? it just doesn't make sense to me.

    in any case, I strongly believe timburr and fletchling should go up to a+.
    fletchling is just great. flying offense is super strong in this metagame and fletchling is the ringleader of it. on paper, it's stats are meh, but priority on acrobatics easily gives it the strongest priority move in the tier. with all the fighting-types running around, it makes it that much more useful. it can sweep considerably often or at least clean up a weakened team, but either way it is in some way important in any given battle. I can kinda see this thing going for a rank given that it is checked well by a lot of strong threats (pawniard, Chinchou, tirtouga, archen, Trubbish to an extent) though.

    timburr has always been bulky, and in this meta it works very well with pawniard, carvanha, scraggy, tirtouga, Dwebble, and Trubbish running around. it isn't that hard for it to pull off a few bulk ups against weaker opponents like Trubbish, Chinchou, etc. the main reason it belongs in a+ is its great bulk and fighting-type that lets it check a lot of top threats.

    edit: oh also absdaddy and a few other ps users wanted me to do this for my 502nd post so:

    are blarajan ruining the metagame?
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
    absdaddy likes this.
  20. Corporal Levi

    Corporal Levi foongus
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    I think Fletchling is indeed that good. It's not a pretty good revenge-killer; it's arguably the absolute best revenge-killer in the game, since a 110 base power STAB priority move with no drawbacks once Fletchling is itemless is potent, to say the least. It's not a really bad sweeper; it's one of the best win conditions available, because with a bit of support to break the things that otherwise beat it, +2 Acrobatics becomes nightmarish for offensive teams. It may be innately frail, but access to such a powerful priority move allows it to invest in defenses; the standard spread of 156 HP/92 Def/52 SpD is able to survive every unboosted priority move in the tier. Flame Body is unreliable, Ferroseed falls to Overheat, and is set-up bait for bulky Fletchling, and priority doesn't OHKO a healthy Fletchling.

    Fletchling is not a one-trick pony; every single counter you've listed except maybe defensive Archen can be played around, be it through Overheat, some form of Natural Gift, or something else. Fletchling certainly relies on its teammates to clear the field if it is to attempt a sweep; however, this not only applies to every non-broken sweeper ever, but this is actually a plus for Fletchling because it can aid its teammates in doing so through U-Turn. Even before this happens, Fletchling is anything but a dead weight due to its aforementioned revenge-killing capabilities.
  21. Porpoise

    Porpoise

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    I'm not saying it's dead weight, and I'm certainly not saying Fletchling is bad. All I am saying is that it is overhyped and a lot less useful than you guys are making it out to be. It's perfectly viable and I'm not saying don't use it, but this thread exaggerates it's abilities a lot.

    Yes, Fletchling is a good revenge killer, and as you said it probably is the best at that role. Yes, it can play around it's counters (but to be honest I think Natural Gift is extremely gimmicky and situational and Overheat is pretty bad). And yes, almost nothing wants to switch into it, Fletchling can't get the OHKOs that it needs to be fully successful.. Anything that can take a hit (which, from full health, isn't the most difficult thing to do for anything that isn't Fighting, Grass, or Bug and has some level of bulk) should be able to OHKO it, especially with SR being so common, and it isn't able to take it out any priority move will be able to.

    Again, Fletchling isn't a bad Pokemon, and I haven't been trying to say that. However, without Swords Dance or some other form of boost, which it finds difficulty setting up, it just doesn't have the power to sweep teams. It's only other attacks besides Acrobatics are Return (which is pretty good), Overheat (which can't be used consistently due to cutting Fletchling's already bad Special Attack) and Natural Gift (which is seriously gimmicky as fuck, it can only be used once and prevents Acrobatics from being good until then).

    I'll say it again, Fletchling is an excellent revenge killer, but it's still not a good sweeper. Yes, at +2 Acrobatics is a force to be reckoned with, but it also dies the turn it sets up the Swords Dance because it dies to just about any hit other than priority.

    Bad? No.
    Possible to play around? Easily.
    Overhyped? Yes.

    Also,
    How is this a plus for Fletchling? Obviously it needs support, but unlike Pokemon that are actually good at sweeping it needs a ton of it. Mienfoo, Misdrevus, and Tirtouga, among others, are able to function pretty well with pretty minimal support, while the support Fletchling needs is significantly greater. The definition of A rank states "These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively" and Fletchling needs a lot of support to be used effectively. Access to U-turn does not change that.
  22. TCR

    TCR Faisons la plupart de la nuit comme on va mourir jeune
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    A+ Tier
    Carvahna
    Chinchou
    Pantsman
    Tirtouga
    Fletchling

    A Tier
    Cottonee
    Trubbish
    Magnemite
    Drilbur
    Spritzee

    A- Tier
    Croagunk
    Archen
    Vullaby
    Timburr
    Dwebble
    Ponyta
    Porygon

    OK so basically, I put the Pokemon I see most near the top, including Carvahna (and I'll get to that in a minute). Here are my thoughts on them.

    Chinchou - Chinchou is quite honestly THE best Fletching Check. Unlike other Fletchling checks in Magnemite and Archen, it isnt easily walled depending on the moveset, or severely limited in what it can run. Its coverage is phenomenal, as the only thing that truly beats Chinchou, is other Chinchou. Ground-types cannot switch in without taking a Scald or Hydro Pump, basically boiiling the match down to a predition war (if you do not carry a Chinchou yourself). This ability to almost singlehandedly define the metagame puts it at A+ tier imo.

    Pantsman - Pantsman is just amazing. Yes it has checks and counters. However it is verstaile af, with coverage options to hit almost everything. Head Smash is the most unique of the bunch, OHKOing Vullaby after a +1. Poison Jab can 2hko Spritzee at +1, so it is an amazing Late game sweeper. Moxie is excellent as well, althouhg I prefer Shed Sin. This is probably just bias speaking, as I cans ee it going as neutral A, but its such a solid Mon that I can't really see it going any lower than neutral.

    Tirtouga - Tirtouga is another huge threat in this metagame. It commonly set s up on Pokemon such as Fletchling. The Sturdy Juice set is great and all, I prefer Solid Rock tbh, but that isn't its only set. A support can be used on teams that might leer towards the stall side. Not really much to say here, as it is an excellent late game sweeper.

    Fletchling - Fletchling is excellent. Not really much to say here.

    LOL fuck it ill elaborate later. This is too much work.
  23. Porpoise

    Porpoise

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    Alright, so enough of me bitching about Fletchling, how about Anorith? It's got pretty good Speed and Attack, it's not too frail with Eviolite, and it has Knock Off, Stealth Rock, and Rapid Spin. I could write more later but it should definitely be at least C rank or so. It's surprisingly pretty competent.
  24. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    A+:
    Archen
    Carvanha
    Chinchou
    Fletchling
    Timburr
    Magnemite (severely underrated fsr)

    reasoning (open)


    Archen is one of the only Fletchling checks that isn't picked off by Drilbur, it Defogs, and SRs, and checks Fighting-types. Along with Chinchou I think this should be S.

    Carvanha is the best late game sweeper in the metagame (Fletchling is a close #2), single most dangerous Pokemon that simply requires a few Knock Offs to support.

    Chinchou should be fucking S it's so bulky, decently strong, and versatile.

    Fletchling requires no explanation, best revenge killer, top-tier sweeper.

    Timburr lacks U-turn and Regenerator but makes up with Mach Punch and Guts.


    A:
    Drilbur
    Dwebble
    Tirtouga
    Spritzee

    reasoning (open)


    Drilburr bypasses Sturdy and Rapid Spins pretty reliably. With Murkrow gone, it's slightly less risky to spam EQ.

    Dwebble hazards are incredible and if you don't prepare for this, you're probably going to lose to it.

    Tirtouga alone shouldn't be A but because of Eviolite Tirtouga it deserves to be above most of the A- Pokemon.

    Spritzee checks Fighting-types, doesn't even take too much from Poison Jab on desperate ones, has Aromatherapy, Moonblast is awesome, and only needs some support to deal with Steels/Poisons.





    A-:
    Croagunk
    Ponyta
    Vullaby
    Cottonee
    Porygon (rip bw2 n00b)
    Trubbish
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Scraggy. Maybe. very average pkmn in this meta.

    reasoning (open)


    These Pokemon are just simply not as good due to SR, typing, or stats.
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  25. Merritt

    Merritt

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    Anorith has fantastic attack, good speed, and nothing over dwebble as a hazard lead or knock off user. Rapid spin is virtually the only thing it has over the other rock/bug, and if you plan to have a spinner, you typically don't want one that's weak to every single hazard. In addition, the three moves you listed don't allow anorith to take advantage of its good attack and speed, instead relegating it to a support role, where it is outclassed by dwebble. Even offensive Anorith is outclassed by the extremely rare SS dwebble. Unfortunately, it's completely overshadowed, and so should be D-rank.

    As for Heysup's unforgivable hating on Scraggy...

    196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

    +2 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 25-30 (108.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    TAKE THAT.

    EDIT: More clearly, Scraggy's a huge steamroller. You don't stop it fairly early, it's going to sweep you.

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