Chespin is pretty outclassed as setup sweeper, and is probably best being bulky.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
Chespin is too slow and doesn't have priority, making Belly Drum pretty unviable. It's defensive/support sets are pretty good though, so I think C+ is fitting for it.
Let's not go completely overboard (like we did for Trubbish) just yet. Walling key Pokemon is wonderful, but having used Chespin, I've found that to wall the Pokemon it's trying to wall, it often has to spend a great deal of its time recovering. This normally wouldn't be too bad, but the issue here is that Synthesis only has 8 PP, meaning Chespin is easily stalled out. One Pokemon this is particularly problematic against is Clear Smog Foongus.
0 SpA Foongus Clear Smog vs. 68 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Chespin: 8-12 (34.7 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 12)
108 Atk Chespin Payback (50 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 3-4 (12 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)
Chespin is forced to use Synthesis at least once every two attacks, and usually only pulls off an 8HKO, which is the same amount of PP as synthesis; unlike Chespin, Foongus has Regenerator, meaning it will eventually be able to overtake Chespin quite easily.
In addition, several of the Pokemon it is purported to beat actually give it a fair amount of trouble.
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 68 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Chespin: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Berry Juice Misdreavus is actually able to avoid the OHKO from Chespin's Payback.
108 Atk Chespin Payback (100 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not only that, but Misdreavus can burn Chespin to cripple it heavily.
It's certainly a hard counter to Bellsprout, but that's not actually such a big feat if you consider how it loses to Vulpix, Ponyta, Larvesta, Bulbasaur, Oddish, and Archen (the last two use HP Fire instead of Weather Ball), all of which are incredibly common on Sun teams as well.
It also beats most variants of Gastly, although keep in mind that if Chespin does grow in popularity, Gastly could probably opt to just run Sludge Wave instead, which is, on the Life Orb variant, necessary for the guaranteed OHKO on Zigzagoon as well.
With all that being said, Chespin has actually been a lot of fun, and bulky Spikes setters are just really nice in general; being able to beat Drilbur is actually really nice. I just don't feel as if it's on the same level as Pokemon such as Surskit and Bellsprout, and think it would be a better fit in C.
0 SpA Foongus Clear Smog vs. 68 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Chespin: 8-12 (34.7 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 12)
108 Atk Chespin Payback (50 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 3-4 (12 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)
Chespin is forced to use Synthesis at least once every two attacks, and usually only pulls off an 8HKO, which is the same amount of PP as synthesis; unlike Chespin, Foongus has Regenerator, meaning it will eventually be able to overtake Chespin quite easily.
In addition, several of the Pokemon it is purported to beat actually give it a fair amount of trouble.
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 68 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Chespin: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Berry Juice Misdreavus is actually able to avoid the OHKO from Chespin's Payback.
108 Atk Chespin Payback (100 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not only that, but Misdreavus can burn Chespin to cripple it heavily.
It's certainly a hard counter to Bellsprout, but that's not actually such a big feat if you consider how it loses to Vulpix, Ponyta, Larvesta, Bulbasaur, Oddish, and Archen (the last two use HP Fire instead of Weather Ball), all of which are incredibly common on Sun teams as well.
It also beats most variants of Gastly, although keep in mind that if Chespin does grow in popularity, Gastly could probably opt to just run Sludge Wave instead, which is, on the Life Orb variant, necessary for the guaranteed OHKO on Zigzagoon as well.
With all that being said, Chespin has actually been a lot of fun, and bulky Spikes setters are just really nice in general; being able to beat Drilbur is actually really nice. I just don't feel as if it's on the same level as Pokemon such as Surskit and Bellsprout, and think it would be a better fit in C.
Very true Corporal Levi,Slashari ,and Brosb4Ho-oh's. Chespin is a very slow poke and a belly drum set is not worthy of its awesomeness.It lacks priority unlike the best belly drummer in LC zigzagoon which has the STAB and niflty extreemespeed. Another reason i didnt mention in my first post about chespin is if u put a status ailment on it, chespin becomes extremely crippled since
1. paralyzed- u get haxed and cant set up or do synthesis.
2.frozen-same thing as paralyzed except even worse- chespin is useless until u thaw out.
3.poisoned-you are really crippled since synthesis's pp is very low and 12%(poison damage) or constant damaging poison(toxic) is whittling you down.
4.burned-WORST status ailment to have on chespin. Chespin is a tank all right,but it needs to attack for increasing damage. When you're burned, your physical attacks are going to do next to nothing.
116 Atk burned Chespin Payback (100 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
^ major loss to misdreavus.
Overrall, chespin is not at all a bad pokemon in LC. It does have some flaws, but it should at least be on a rank.
NUUUUU FLETCH!!!
1. paralyzed- u get haxed and cant set up or do synthesis.
2.frozen-same thing as paralyzed except even worse- chespin is useless until u thaw out.
3.poisoned-you are really crippled since synthesis's pp is very low and 12%(poison damage) or constant damaging poison(toxic) is whittling you down.
4.burned-WORST status ailment to have on chespin. Chespin is a tank all right,but it needs to attack for increasing damage. When you're burned, your physical attacks are going to do next to nothing.
116 Atk burned Chespin Payback (100 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
^ major loss to misdreavus.
Overrall, chespin is not at all a bad pokemon in LC. It does have some flaws, but it should at least be on a rank.
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The biggest problem with Chespin being used as a Misdreavus check is that a NP + Will O Wisp set pretty easily beats Chespin. If Missy is packing Berry Juice, it escapes from the encounter relatively unscathed if played correctly, and also gets a few boosts in the process. Synthesis also has really low PP, which kind of sucks, because Chespin needs to heal a lot in order to beat things. Like Eren Yeagar said, status, especially Burn, really hinders Chespin from beating the stuff it wants to beat. However, it still has a usable niche in being able to counter Gastly, Chinchou, Non Wisp Missy, Foongus if it doesn't have HP fire, and quite a few other things.
Oh yeah, Corporal Levi, even though the Sim allows it, Gastly can't legally use Sludge Wave because it has to be level 10 to use it. :[
Oh yeah, Corporal Levi, even though the Sim allows it, Gastly can't legally use Sludge Wave because it has to be level 10 to use it. :[
Um... Belly Drum Chespin beats Misdreavus... a burn doesnt have anything on +6 Atk SE Payback.
Get your garbage sets out of here imo
Chespin is still a god amongst all these Poke-plebeians, but it has a hard time dealing with certain sets on mons that it's supposed to be countering.
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Chespin has some neat things in its movepool that help it with the things mentioned in Levi's post.
Aerial Ace is cool, and allows Chespin to get around other Grass-types much more easily.
108+ Atk Chespin Aerial Ace vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Stone Edge OHKOes a lot of the things that like switching in to Chespin, although the accuracy is a bit offputting.
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Vulpix: 20-24 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archen: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 10-14 (45.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chespin's definitely a cool mon, and C/C+ seems perfect for it.
Edit: The fact that it's cute as FUCK pushes it to C+ imo.
Aerial Ace is cool, and allows Chespin to get around other Grass-types much more easily.
108+ Atk Chespin Aerial Ace vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Stone Edge OHKOes a lot of the things that like switching in to Chespin, although the accuracy is a bit offputting.
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Vulpix: 20-24 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archen: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 10-14 (45.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
108+ Atk Chespin Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chespin's definitely a cool mon, and C/C+ seems perfect for it.
Edit: The fact that it's cute as FUCK pushes it to C+ imo.
Nosepass: E --> C+
YES, I love using Nosepass so much. It has great defenses, SturdyJuice, Pain Split, T-wave, Rocks, Magic Coat, Volt Switch, VERY useful. It almost always gets up rocks for me. I use it on my Hoenn team it always works out for me. Definitely solid C+
Venipede: E --> D
I personally don't like Venipede that much. But I guess Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Speed Boost are his niche along with Endeavor. I've tried using him a couple times on my Bug team but he's just not that great to me. D is my opinion.
YES, I love using Nosepass so much. It has great defenses, SturdyJuice, Pain Split, T-wave, Rocks, Magic Coat, Volt Switch, VERY useful. It almost always gets up rocks for me. I use it on my Hoenn team it always works out for me. Definitely solid C+
Venipede: E --> D
I personally don't like Venipede that much. But I guess Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Speed Boost are his niche along with Endeavor. I've tried using him a couple times on my Bug team but he's just not that great to me. D is my opinion.
Damnit, I just missed it. Oh well. I was still typing up my report. xD
I have been testing Chespin and I have been noticing a few problems. First off, the most notable pokemon it is supposed to beat he really cant switch in on them. Foongus like Corporal Levi said can easily PP stall him with its other poison moves like venoshock or clear smog. Chinchou almost always outspeeds Chespn and can volt switch to an appropiate check. And though rare, Drilbur can Posion Jab him on the switch and threaten to kill. And Chespin, actually cant beat some missy varients, some can even argue that pawniard does a better job. This means it really only beats chloroabusers like bellsprout 100% of the time. So I think at highest it should be C-
I agree on Chespin being at least C+
Imo, it should be B rank, for ... all the reasons stated upper. Chespin fits into defensive teams anyway, so its main weakness being statuses isn't such a problem.
The fact Chespin will always get burned when facing missy makes me choose to run eball/stone edge
eball will have 135 pow where payback had 100 w/ super effectiveness + burn
it will do about the same damages since missy sdef is higher. All this to say that there is no reason to use payback. You'd only use it when facing missy, and it means getting burned 90% of time.
Chespin wants stone edge anyway.
Imo, it should be B rank, for ... all the reasons stated upper. Chespin fits into defensive teams anyway, so its main weakness being statuses isn't such a problem.
The fact Chespin will always get burned when facing missy makes me choose to run eball/stone edge
eball will have 135 pow where payback had 100 w/ super effectiveness + burn
it will do about the same damages since missy sdef is higher. All this to say that there is no reason to use payback. You'd only use it when facing missy, and it means getting burned 90% of time.
Chespin wants stone edge anyway.
Hey, I'm wondering why Ponyta is still A-. I haven't seen it for a long time and it really doesn't fit the description of the A tier. Am I missing something?
I'm think that Ponyta --->B+ or B
I'm think that Ponyta --->B+ or B
Lord Alphose, Ponyta still hits 19 speed and is a mammoth under sun. Sunnybeam ponyta is also a big threat late game.
errr, except for the fact it's amazing?
i know i'm a bit of a ponyta fan, but it has 19 speed, and flame body to make it a fantastic counter to many physical attackers. not to mention strong offenses and powerful moves such as Flare Blitz and Fire Blast, alongside moves to help it get round cuonters such as sunnyday, solarbeam, wild charge for archen, and even has room for moves such as toxic to make it an opposing fire-type wall. Fire is a fantastic offensive typing right now as well, meaning it can go offensive with Life Orb, and can use stuff like flame charge or just sunny day+3 attacks which makes it a fantastic wallbreaker.
Looking at S rank, it walls pawn+mienfoo, it can take a hit from fletch and burn/ko, it can speed tie and severely damage missy
A+ rank, it can wild charge or burn archen, use sunny day to beat chinchou and carvanha, and non-sturdy tirtouga, it can take out mag, only issue is timburr which it doens't like switching into due to guts
A rank, it can baet cottonee, drilbur can't switch in, it beats foongus, it struggles vs, porygon but sometimes carries toxic which lets it beat that
A- rank, it walls gunk, ferro, scraggy, spritzee, avoids the OHKO from Abra and hits back (or wins tie), burns dwebble and loses to diglett
that's most of the top tier threats that it can either wall, lure or check and poses a strong threat to most mons with just STAB flare blitz alone.
I should also add to this that Ponyta also works well in defensive teams as it can spread burns with either its ability Flame Body or Will-o-Wisp. It also has a nice 50/55/65 bulk which allows it to live even some SE hits and a way to recovery in Morning Sun. It can be also a physical attacker thank to its 85 Attack stat which allows it to hit 18 with Jolly aswell as having a Wild Charge and Flare Blitz combo that is resisted only by few Pokémon.
Its unpredictability and ability to play many roles makes it worthy of being an A rank.
M'kay. I don't really care that much, I just really never see it. But if it's good, then whatever.
Well Lord Alphose Ponyta is still a viable and strong pokemon with its amazing ability Flame Body and can stop the very common mienfoos,fletchlings,and physical attackers in LC. Ponyta in my opinion got more viable in this metagame since most viable pokes are physical attackers and LC is more hyper offensive than stally. It has many good options for its sets such as sun which gives flare blitz AMAZING power and the standard one with willowisp,flare blitz,wild charge,and morning sun(which is amazing since ponyta has average bulk in LC).
Overall, ponyta is a good poke in LC and it should stay in A-.
Overall, ponyta is a good poke in LC and it should stay in A-.
So, as I had stated several times. I'm here to vouch for Trapinch and Solosis. Both Pokemon which I've used to great result on my Trick Room teams.
I want to place both of these little monsters on at least C- rank.
Highly outclassed by Abra under normal circumstances, but then again, there are a lot of things to set it apart from Abra. Solosis works under Trick Room, even though that's an underwhelming play style that most people would say is bad, I'd like everyone to consider a few things, mainly, the fact that Solosis can set its own TR, being able to 'outspeed' pretty much all the offensive metagame for 4 turns, and you probably don't know, but this thing's actually more powerful than Abra, because Abra is usually using Timid Nature, which doesn't let its Special Attack go up to where Solosis' is. Solosis with 76/36 Investments and Eviolite, it's actually able to tank a Shadow Ball from Misdreavus that is probably switching in as you use Trick Room, so you end up winning that fight. Solosis gets Regenerator so it's a great TR user that can live a few hits, switch out to regain health and dish out insane damage, which pretty much can clean up late game. It also gets Overcoat, which makes it a decent Foongus Switch-in, giving you a free turn to use your TR. Lastly, it gets Magic Guard, which is something you can use if you don't want hazards taking away its health on the switch or want poison/burns to annoy you. Also, let's not forget Mienfoo can't stay in and Knock Off or else it dies. Being able to hold its own against S rank Pokemon should be enough for it to have a place outside D rank.
Very well, first of all... HOW IS THIS ADORABLE CUTIE NOT RANKED? LOOK AT IT.
Ahem... So, my argument about Trapinch is simple. It's a better Diglett under TR, and when I say it's a better Diglett, I mean that this thing 'outspeeds' the metagame under TR, just like Diglett would do under normal circumstances. The big difference is that Trapinch can actually take a hit with Eviolite. Trapinch beats Scarf Pawn easily after TR is set, since all you need to do is switch in, and even if you eat knock off, you just EQ it out of the way, eliminating that threat instantly with little cost, since Trapinch doesn't really need the Eviolite for anything other than beating 1 of the opposing team's troublesome Pokemon. Also, it has the ability to trap Croagunk, Chinchou and Houndour, which are all relevant Pokemon in the metagame. If you don't think this is enough, let's not forget that non-trapped opponents can lose 1v1 against Trapinch, mainly birds... since they get destroyed by Rock Slide coming from a 20 Atk stat. It has Crunch to hit Misdreavus in case it needs to, although it only does 16-18 damage to her, but then again, nothing kills her in 1 hit unless you're on steroids. Lastly, it gets Quick Attack, which can be used to remove Sash, Sturdy or get one last hit after Trick Room is over. So, we got edgequake coverage, Quick Attack, power, decent bulk and the most important trait, it's cute as fuck.
Look at its cute little dance before you say it's not worth C- Rank.
I want to place both of these little monsters on at least C- rank.
Highly outclassed by Abra under normal circumstances, but then again, there are a lot of things to set it apart from Abra. Solosis works under Trick Room, even though that's an underwhelming play style that most people would say is bad, I'd like everyone to consider a few things, mainly, the fact that Solosis can set its own TR, being able to 'outspeed' pretty much all the offensive metagame for 4 turns, and you probably don't know, but this thing's actually more powerful than Abra, because Abra is usually using Timid Nature, which doesn't let its Special Attack go up to where Solosis' is. Solosis with 76/36 Investments and Eviolite, it's actually able to tank a Shadow Ball from Misdreavus that is probably switching in as you use Trick Room, so you end up winning that fight. Solosis gets Regenerator so it's a great TR user that can live a few hits, switch out to regain health and dish out insane damage, which pretty much can clean up late game. It also gets Overcoat, which makes it a decent Foongus Switch-in, giving you a free turn to use your TR. Lastly, it gets Magic Guard, which is something you can use if you don't want hazards taking away its health on the switch or want poison/burns to annoy you. Also, let's not forget Mienfoo can't stay in and Knock Off or else it dies. Being able to hold its own against S rank Pokemon should be enough for it to have a place outside D rank.
Very well, first of all... HOW IS THIS ADORABLE CUTIE NOT RANKED? LOOK AT IT.
Ahem... So, my argument about Trapinch is simple. It's a better Diglett under TR, and when I say it's a better Diglett, I mean that this thing 'outspeeds' the metagame under TR, just like Diglett would do under normal circumstances. The big difference is that Trapinch can actually take a hit with Eviolite. Trapinch beats Scarf Pawn easily after TR is set, since all you need to do is switch in, and even if you eat knock off, you just EQ it out of the way, eliminating that threat instantly with little cost, since Trapinch doesn't really need the Eviolite for anything other than beating 1 of the opposing team's troublesome Pokemon. Also, it has the ability to trap Croagunk, Chinchou and Houndour, which are all relevant Pokemon in the metagame. If you don't think this is enough, let's not forget that non-trapped opponents can lose 1v1 against Trapinch, mainly birds... since they get destroyed by Rock Slide coming from a 20 Atk stat. It has Crunch to hit Misdreavus in case it needs to, although it only does 16-18 damage to her, but then again, nothing kills her in 1 hit unless you're on steroids. Lastly, it gets Quick Attack, which can be used to remove Sash, Sturdy or get one last hit after Trick Room is over. So, we got edgequake coverage, Quick Attack, power, decent bulk and the most important trait, it's cute as fuck.
Look at its cute little dance before you say it's not worth C- Rank.
While I agree that Solosis could technically fit in C- rank, I don't feel the same about Trapinch. I, too have been trying out a Trick Room team lately, and I felt Trapinch was a bit of a dead weight. It honestly looks a bit better on paper than it is in reality, and while a 20 Attack STAB Earthquake can pop holes in stuff like Chinchou and Maggy, I feel it didn't function exactly the way I wanted. Not to say its bad at all, but I like it in D-rank better.
EDIT: Glad to see other people are repping Trick Room. Underrated playstyle.
EDIT: Glad to see other people are repping Trick Room. Underrated playstyle.
Snubbull B rank --> B+ rank WHY: Snubbull is one of the few LC pokes that were gifted with the amazing fairy type. As i said in my spritzee post, i said spritzee was one of the best fairys in LC. Snubbull is also one of those best fairy types. Since fairy types are rare in LC, Snubbull doesnt have that much competition in LC.Now, it has an incredible movepool which has t-wave(AMAZING),play rough(AMAZING STAB),earthquake(GOD DAMN!),heal bell,close combat,crunch,and thief. See that? Snubbull doesn't mess around. Plus, this thing has amazing coverage. Magnemite and pawniard(snub's biggest counters) can be predicted on the switch and be killed with earthquake. You may need to have stealth rocks support for sturdy mag. Snubbull can hit hard and wittle down potential threats for your sweepers with thunder wave. Plus, snubbull has that STAB play rough and can easily get you a bunch of KOs with top tier threats. Its ability, Intimidate, can also lower physical attackers down which is super sweet with fletchling. With misdreavus around, you could use the thief strategy to get missy's berry juice or eviolite :D. Snubbull is a pokemon in LC that deserves more than a B rank.
DON'T DENY IT,SNUBBULL IS CUTE AF!
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Bitch please, Snubbull ugly af.
But yeah, being able to check virtually all Fighting-types in the tier is an amazing feat, and time after time, my hard work statusing my opponents team has been undone thanks to Snubbull's amazing ability to force stuff out. B+ for sure.
See, the thing is, the best TR users (imo) are Spritzee and Porygon, since they already have great synergy defensively. But who beats this great core? Croagunk. Who traps and eliminates Croagunk? Trapinch. After Croagunk was taken down I just had to attack the incoming Pokemon until Trapinch would faint. (If I needed Trapinch to trap another threat, I'd have to sacc something for it to come safe, but then that's 2 kill for the price of 1)
that's a tiny niche - i get that trapinch is viable and it fulfills this niche in a trick room team, but that's not worthy of C, that's a D-rank niche. D rank means has a small niche but only justify their use on the odd team
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