Resource LC Viability Rankings

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Camden

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I would like to nominate slowpoke to move up to at least B rank, probably higher. Even in a metagame so utterly dominated by knock off, slowpoke holds more than its own. Even with a psychic typing, the high overall defense, regeneration and support it can offer with thunder wave offsets these weaknesses. Slowpoke does have trouble taking some trouble taking hits from some of the tier's top threats (read pawniard), and usually will be hit hard by knock off, it's defenses even without it's eviolite are acceptable, and with the passive recovery from regenerator it can still hang around long enough to spread paralysis and burns, supporting the team and taking on Fletchling, Tortuga, drillbur, and digglet (along with a lot of others if you're willing to lose the eviolite). In my oppinion, all of this makes it at least B, if not B+.
Sadly, there's a reason we moved it down to B-, and it's for the reason you just described.

Slowpoke does have trouble taking some trouble taking hits from some of the tier's top threats (read pawniard), and usually will be hit hard by knock off...
This is just it. When you factor in hazards, crazy flying knock offs, and voltturning EVERYWHERE, it's very hard for Slowpoke to do his job. Yes, Regenerator is great, it really does give Slowpoke the help he needs, but as a defensive pivot, he just gets worn down too fast to properly be effective. He finds himself constantly running away, as well as having trouble switching in because of the momentum that can be lost by doing so.
 

Rowan

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spritzee -> mid A
carvanha -> mid A
drilbur -> high A
munchlax -> high B

these are the changes that I've made. Sorry, I've been away for a while, so this thread has been dying, but i'm back now so yeah. I'm also, looking for someone to co-run this with me, because It's really hard keeping track of all the changes by myself and if I suddenly have a period of inactivity, it doesn't die. PM me if you're interested. (unless you wanna start doing this again prem ?)

I moved vanha to mid A instead of Low A, because people brought up valid points as to its role as a wallbreaker. I feel like people have solely been using it as a late game sweeper and that's why they are disappointed, whilst playing it differently can make it a bit more versatile even though the only difference is DBond>Ajet.

anyway, because I've not been keeping up, I don't know the verdict on Chinchou for S. I nominated it a while ago, and from what I can see there seems to be a 50/50 split on what people wanted. is there anything else anyone wants to say on the matter?

any other nominations, I'm sorry if I missed them, and if you made a nom that got ignored, feel free to post again about it
 

Shrug

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When you factor in hazards, crazy flying knock offs, and voltturning EVERYWHERE, it's very hard for Slowpoke to do his job.
You know what similarly bulky Water-type does not have a problem with these things? Shellos, Shellos is just too badass not being weak to knock off and having Earth Power to deter volt switch users while still providing similar functions as Slowpoke (tanking fire hits, stopping FletchDig, etc.). I'm not saying Slowpoke is a bad pokemon in the proper context; I use Slowpoke to beat Abra (Goddess Briyella pointed out that use) and to stop fighting sweeps. I'm just poitning out Shellos in C+ is criminally low (it's basically telling newer players that Biancle and Drifloon are as good as Shellos) and the fact that Shellos is better adapted to beat the top threats in the meta means it should be slightly higher than slowpoke at Mid-B
 

Corporal Levi

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I don't disagree with Shellos to B- because it's still probably better than most of the C+ pokes, but B seems like it's too high.
Having used both Shellos and Slowpoke in the past, I honestly find Shellos to be less impressive than Slowpoke. For all of Slowpoke's weaknesses, it can actually be quite irritating; neutral physical moves generally fail to even 2HKO it, and Regenerator allows it to wall specific Pokemon endlessly. My biggest concern with Shellos is that it simply doesn't do a whole lot; between its only average bulk for a wall and its role generally forcing it to switch into neutral instead of resisted attacks, it's generally relegated to nothing more than mashing Recover and only occasionally aiming for a Scald burn. I know I don't usually speak very highly of Slowpoke myself, but even though Knock Off is a concern, it doesn't actually instantly end Slowpoke, because two of its most important partners, Foongus and Mienfoo, are excellent Knock Off absorbers, and even without Eviolite, Slowpoke can avoid many weaker 2HKOs due to its obscene natural bulk. Slowpoke does require some support to do what it needs to do, but it still functions quite effectively and honestly, support from Mienfoo/Foongus is not very much at all to ask for at all because both are absolutely phenomenal Pokemon anyway and just about any team that can adequately handle Fletchling will enjoy their presence. I would argue that Shellos shouldn't be considered the better Pokemon, because I personally find that Shellos frankly isn't very threatening, whereas Slowpoke can actually make its presence known because it doesn't need to spend the vast majority of its turns on the battlefield using Recover.

Other than that, I would like to nominate Ponyta for A. The defensive set is nothing short of amazing; its mere presence discourages some of the biggest threats in the tier, including all three S-rank Pokemon, from even attacking. On top of this, Ponyta is the fastest Will-O-Wisp user in LC, allowing it to cripple a variety of offensive threats before they can even react, and has recovery so it can stick around and stall opponents out with burn damage. Ponyta has other advantages, of course; its excellent Speed, high base power STAB moves and offensive stats allow it to pose as a veritable offensive threat, and it's arguably the second best Sun setter after Vulpix, being able to lure in and take out Chinchou with its Sunnybeam set. However, I think its defensive potential is what really makes it great; the vast majority of offensive threats in the current metagame are physical, and Ponyta beats physical attackers. The Stealth Rock weakness can be troublesome, but when Drilbur and Archen are two of the most effective Pokemon available, and Vullaby and Staryu are both viable as well, it can certainly be worked around and the support is more than worth being able to take advantage of Ponyta's strengths.

This may be a bit more controversial, but I would also like to nominate Cottonee for A- (keeping in mind that A- is still very good). Being completely walled by one or two Pokemon is acceptable, but the problem with Cottonee is that it is easily forced out by numerous prominent threats; looking at the A category alone, there's Magnemite, Ferroseed, Foongus, Porygon, Spritzee, Croagunk, Ponyta, and Foongus. Between its low offensive stats and low base power moves, Cottonee is very weak, meaning it's really not all that scary to face at all unless your team relies heavily on something Cottonee beats. Even then, Cottonee lacks reliable recovery, and as such, is extremely easy to wear down. Cottonee is still great; its typing is still incredible, Prankster Memento is useful for getting potent sweepers into play, Prankster Encore is great for discouraging opposing sweepers from setting up, and it has an enormous disruptive movepool in general. However, it struggles to be very useful on defensive teams because it has trouble lasting long enough to make an impact, and offensive teams do not appreciate how it often detracts from momentum because there are so many safe switch-ins to it; I just feel as if it has noticeably more trouble fitting onto a team than other A-ranks.
 
I agree with Chinchou moving up to S. It is, without a doubt, the best pivot in the meta (and arguably the best mon in general imo). Its ability to check a bunch of shit at once is great. It fits nearly every team archetype and is really easy to fit in as a jack-of-all-trades utility mon that acts as team glue. Scald, Heal Bell, and T Wave provide excellent team support, and an offensive scarf set makes use of Chou's great dual STAB and surprise factor to beat unprepared teams (of which many are nowadays). An electric immunity that isn't Drilbur or whatever other ground type is cool, allowing Chinchou to be a great check to VoltTurn cores that are rising in popularity. On the other side of the spectrum, this thing is amazing on VoltTurn and the severely underrated Soak set can put in work against a bunch of stuff.

TL;DR: Move Chinchou the to S. It's ability to pivot in on so much stuff and act as a team glue have made it consistently good in nearly every meta, especially the one were playing in now.
 

The Avalanches

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I really don't know how I truly feel about Chinchou. It hasn't changed all that much from the A+ Pokemon it was when Missy was in the tier, although Missy's ban did remove the need for Trace Porygon to an extent, one of the most reliable switch-ins to Chinchou.

75/38/56 stats are pretty solid in Little Cup, especially for a Pokemon with only two weaknesses, a handful of useful resistances, and an immunity to one of the most spammable attacks in the meta. Berry Juice and Rest are viable recovery options on it too, meaning it can hand out Michael-Kelso-esque burns turn after turn. Despite this, Chinchou isn't exactly the hardest hitter, and even if it packs Ice Beam, Foongus and Cottonee can switch in easily, Diglett and Scarf Drilbur can wipe it off the map with Earthquake, the former of which will leave it with no escape.

I could go on all day about its flaws though, even the best Pokemon in S and A+ Rank have their flaws. Chinchou is a reliable and versatile pivot that can find its spot reliable on any team, like Slashari. At this stage, I think it should stay A+ rank, as nothing has really changed for it since Misdreavus's ban, and we agreed it should stay A+, although I could be convinced for it to rise a rank, Slashari's argument certainly made me think about it.
 
imo Goth to A-.

It's an extremely versatile Pokemon that can trap multiple high tier threats. Its use has gone beyond Scarf to stuff like RestCM as a stallbreaker and Evio as a more guaranteed check. I've wrote enough about Goth and I originally wanted to put it here but didn't want to rock the boat too much. However, given the success a lot of players have with it, it's safe to say it's damn good.
 
imo Goth to A-.

It's an extremely versatile Pokemon that can trap multiple high tier threats. Its use has gone beyond Scarf to stuff like RestCM as a stallbreaker and Evio as a more guaranteed check. I've wrote enough about Goth and I originally wanted to put it here but didn't want to rock the boat too much. However, given the success a lot of players have with it, it's safe to say it's damn good.
Success with a mon doesn't mean its worthy of the ranking, the fact goth is so easy to use, as are all trappers not named wobb, as they easily pick and choose a ton of shit within their moveset range/tipping and abuse them with barely any hope of escape. Well deserving of a- or higher, hp fire goth is also really cool to murder ferro.
 
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Aaron's Aron

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Why is Dwebble still A-? How many times do I have to request for him to move down? What kind of shenanigans are you guys trying to pull here...? geez...
(I don't want to back it up at the moment though lol).
 

Rowan

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oh yeah moving dwebble down, i was gonna do that too. This is why I need someone to run this thread with me...

... Corporal Levi is going to be co-running this with me, I'm gonna give him the OP, and I'll continue to edit it with my mod powers.

Oh, and Levi, no trying to move Foongus up without anybody noticing.
 

Corporal Levi

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Slugma: Unranked -> D

I'm going to try to keep the list at the bottom of the post updated for the time being so if I missed anything please let me know
 
How on earth is Cyndaquill atrocious? It's not A rank certainly, but it obviously doesn't deserve to be in the section containing complete jokes such as Magikarp and Feebas! It has an interesting niche, being one of the very few good pokemon in LC that get Eruption, as well good Speed and Specail Attack stats. "This Pokemon has no place on any serious team". is certainly what I dont think about when Cyndaquill comes to mind. LC is full of priority, weakning cyndaquill's Eruption (thats not the only option it can run) , but still it doesnt deserve to be ranked lower than Goldeen. I have used Cyndaquill to quite some sucess on my team, and it seems to me like cyndaquill deserves better than the rank it is currently in.
 

The Avalanches

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196 SpA Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)

252+ SpA Cyndaquil Eruption (150 BP) vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

There is really almost no incentive to use this over Vulpix, honestly. Vulpix doesn't need to lock itself into an unreliable move, it can hold Heat Rock or Life Orb, as it doesn't need full health in order to hit hard, Vulpix can support a team reliably, too, while Cyndaquil basically gets off one big hit -- only if Stealth Rock isn't up.

It requires too much support to perform such a narrow duty, and it is outclassed at it anyway, by something which is much more of an asset to a team. Unranked is fine, but if I was being really generous, maybe D-rank?
 
but still it doesnt deserve to be ranked lower than Goldeen.
Yeah it does, considering Goldeen actually has a niche (taking on Chinchou thanks to Lightning Rod, blocking Volt Switch, sporting a water resist as well), and Cyndaquil really doesn't. The juice honestly isn't worth the squeeze when it comes to supporting Cyndaquil, especially considering the more useful Fire-types in the tier such as Ponyta and Vulpix.
 

Fiend

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How on earth is Cyndaquill atrocious? It's not A rank certainly, but it obviously doesn't deserve to be in the section containing complete jokes such as Magikarp and Feebas! It has an interesting niche, being one of the very few good pokemon in LC that get Eruption, as well good Speed and Specail Attack stats. "This Pokemon has no place on any serious team". is certainly what I dont think about when Cyndaquill comes to mind. LC is full of priority, weakning cyndaquill's Eruption (thats not the only option it can run) , but still it doesnt deserve to be ranked lower than Goldeen. I have used Cyndaquill to quite some sucess on my team, and it seems to me like cyndaquill deserves better than the rank it is currently in.
What you have failed to recognize is the two pokemon's niche's with in the Little Cup meta. Goldeen actually has a place on some teams as it counters Chinchou, a pokemon which was recently nominated for the prestigious S rank, and Magnemite as well as most other Electric types. Goldeen also has decent enough coverage to have some, albeit little, use outside of simply stopping Volt Switches completely. On the other hand, Cyndaquil fails to do much outside of.... wallbreak? Revenge Kill? Eruption may at first seem very appealing and powerful, but in reality it fails to score the KOes it needs to in order to be effective. Eruption also suffers from becoming weaker than Fire Blast after a single Stealth Rock switch in, and not to mention not KOing something means you are either crippled or dead. Additionally, a choice item is needed for Cyndaquil to be effective as it honestly cannot do anything besides Eruption spam. Having only one small, not-really-a-niche niche means something along the lines of Magby/Ponyta/Larvesta/Houndour or even Charmander outclass Cyndaquil in any role it would wish to take on.
 

Rowan

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The E/smog frog rank includes everything else in little cup. The Pokemon listed are pokemon that get a reasonably significant amount of usage (about more than 1%) and are known for being used a lot on the lower ladder, yet are completely outclassed by other things. In this case, cyndaquill is completely outclassed by vulpix, and won't move up unless it's found that it has a niche over vulpix
 
Pumpkaboo up to B pls

This thing is THE spinblocker in the current meta. Its cool typing allows it to easily come in on the two relevant spinners (staryu and mole) and KO them. Its movepool is also insanely cool, featuring such gems as Will-O-Wisp, Shadow Sneak, Destiny Bond, and Trick Room. Not to mention the fact that it can be either fast and bulky with the Small size or just really bulky with the Large size (Don't use XL unless you're running TR, L has the same stats and is faster). Also, Pickup and frisk are really cool abilities. Its only downside is lack of recovery outside of Leech Seed and a Knock Off weakness, but Spritzee is a god so it's not that big of a deal. Definitely a mid B mon.

edit: I was wrong about L being outright better than XL since it hits 25/16/14, but that extra point is still useful for dbond shenanigans. Shoutout to levi for this one
 
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The Avalanches

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I agree with Tahu right here. C+ doesn't do Pumpkaboo justice. Although being weak to Acrobatics and Knock Off is a big issue, the fact that this thing stands up to top threats like Drilbur and Chinchou along with its useful movepool which includes things like the damage-wacky Bullet Seed, Will-O-Wisp to cripple Mienfoo, Pawniard and the like makes it a useful addition to any team. It also has a fun niche as a Trick Room setter lead, as it beats common leads like Onix and Drilbur 1v1, and it has Explosion to prevent a loss of momentum and immediately allow a team mate to start bopping stuff.

Pumpkaboo for B
 
Success with a mon doesn't mean its worthy of the ranking, the fact goth is so easy to use, as are all trappers not named wobb, as they easily pick and choose a ton of shit within their moveset range/tipping and abuse them with barely any hope of escape. Well deserving of a- or higher, hp fire goth is also really cool to murder ferro.
Yeah I was just lazy bcos sick. Goth's easily the most flexible trapper in the metagame given the variety of sets it can use and because it traps virtually anything. Trapping high-profile threats for a near-guaranteed kill (think Archen, Timburr, Mienfoo, Fletch and so much more) and crapping on weakened threats. It's devastating for your opponent when you trap Pokemon that are essential to the game, and that's something Goth does far too well.
 
Anorith needs to be higher than D. It learns stealth rock and rapid spin, reaches 17 spe, and can even run SD if it really wants to. I'm not sure exactly where it would go (probably C or C-), but it is much better than the other mons in D rank.

Also fully agreeing with shellos to b-. It's surprisingly bulky, has sticky hold, has reliable recovery, and can even avoid being setup fodder with clear smog or yawn.
 

The Avalanches

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Anorith needs to be higher than D. It learns stealth rock and rapid spin, reaches 17 spe, and can even run SD if it really wants to. I'm not sure exactly where it would go (probably C or C-), but it is much better than the other mons in D rank.
It reaches 18 Speed, actually. Plus, it has some impressive attacks too with a high Attack stat; Rock Blast and Knock Off hurt coming from it. Other spinners can give it trouble unfortunately, plus it loses 1v1 against many opponents in S and A-rank, and has a difficult time switching in, as its defenses are pretty soft, and its only resistances are to Normal- and Poison-type. Still, 18 Speed lets this thing take on Flying-types with a strong Rock Blast.

C- rank probably fits it best, it has a niche greater than that of other D-rank Pokemon.
 
Agreeing with others regarding moving Anorith up to C-

I'm pretty sure it's the fastest stealth rocker in the tier and also access to fast rapid spin and Knock Off is also cool. With Swift Swim and Swords Dance you could even have a sweeper set if your like Fizz and like using rain for some reason

Goth is an unusual mon which I have never gotten to work and I just find it to underwhelming however it seems that I am not using it properly and it would probably work best on volt turn to maximise trapping potential so I won't leave an opinion on this mon yet.

Cbf checking OP but if it hasn't been moved up, move up Ponyta fast Will-O- Wisp, and Flame Body Ponyta threatens a lot of physical attackers. Also with Wild Charge always being an option, players normally have to try and scout to see if it's carrying Wild Charge to ensure it's safe to switch in mons that would otherwise be great switchins like Archen, and Water-types. It isn't known or having a wide movepool but Solar Beam makes a good Chinchou lure, Return and Toxic can also help wear down Chinchou and something I have liked running is Sleep Talk so you have a great Foongus switchin. Prevents your opponent from trying to beat Pony with Foongus's Sludge Bombs after sleep (because they don't want their physical attackers being burned)

And it also prevents Ponyta being complete set up bait (FlareBlitz and Burn can negate a set up attempt
 
Also gonna agree with Shellos. Before, it was good in Missy era because of Pawn being scarf, BU timburr being far better than now, and not being fodder for Missy. Back in Missy era, Shellos deserved high B, but not anymore. SD Pawn just kinda bones it, and the recent fall of Shrek Smashers detracts from its viability too :((
 
Agreeing with others regarding moving Anorith up to C-

I'm pretty sure it's the fastest stealth rocker in the tier and also access to fast rapid spin and Knock Off is also cool. With Swift Swim and Swords Dance you could even have a sweeper set if your like Fizz and like using rain for some reason
No love for Stealth Rock Diglett!?!? But yah, given Anorith's typing, it doesn'treally make for a good Rapid Spinner, another main problem here is the lack of Sturdy. Anorith is just a really weird mon; however, I suppose it has enough niche over Dwebble to be moved to C-.

I also think Minccino deserves a placement far superior than D, I think C, with Meowth, fits Minccino much more appropriately. It has a great movepool with Skill Link Tail SLap, allowing it to beat multiple mons we think of as bulky, including Vullaby and Spritzee, as well as Knock Off, helping it capitalize on Tail Slap's whacky, but amazing, damage rolls.

I am definitely agreeing with the rise of Pumpkaboo. Pumpkaboo is an incredible mons, and while being weak to Knock Off, the things that popularly carry Knock Off are mons that you wouldn't switch Pumpaboo into. Pumpkaboo is a great spinblocker, due to it being a good switchin to the popular spinners of Staryu and Drilbur. It also has WoW which is very significant.

I'm also agreeing with Shellos moving to B-, due to it beating common mons like Fighters; however, falling short of beating Pawniard this meta due to the re-rise of Swords Dance. It has a very intersting movepool, giving it Scald, Clear Smog, Earth Power and even Recover, as well as Sticky Hold, which helps it maintain its bulk throughout the progression of the battle. Earth Power is significant due to it not being Chinchou bait, while Recover also helps here due to it being able to stay in on Volt Switch and just recovering the damage off.
 
Minchinno is d rank? Yeah it's definitely better than that, agreeing with c.

I would like to see sandshrew move up to c+. It has a solid niche over drilbur in being much bulkier, allowing it to set up SR more reliably, or set up with SD in sand. On top of all this, it has access to knock off and rapid spin.
 
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