This is why LC got taken out of SPL folks
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
Okay now that you nerds are done discussing shit mons like Drowzee I and several others have an actual point that needs to be brought up (again..). Fletchling dropping. (Also if anyone calls me a hypocrite because my viewpoint on Fletch has changed I will literally murder you all)
S-Rank is defined as:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
By definition, Fletchling should theoretically not even be in S-Rank. It's a good, reusable revenge killer at best that can sometimes pull off a SD and attempt to sweep. At +0, however, it is incredibly weak. Foongus has a higher base attack stat than Fletchling. Foongus. It is unable to kill the things it's supposed to check, like Mienfoo, Foongus, Croagunk, Timburr, etc. which all can cripple or even KO Fletch. I know an argument I used to counter this is that these mons cannot be assumed to always be full health. However, the same then goes for Fletchling. If Fletchling is supposed to be switching in on something like Mienfoo's knock off, but it actually Drain Punches, then Fletch is dead.
This leads me to my next point. Fletchling is incredibly 50/50-based. "Oh, should I use u-turn to switch out of my counters that I can do literally nothing to except maybe continually "wear them down", or use acrobatics and not even kill this Mienfoo?". Fletchling can't even be using u-turn that much because it's weak to SR. Some "pivot" it is.
An S-Rank mon is supposed to be able to pull its own weight and greatly support the team. Obviously, Fletchling cannot do this. It simply requires too much team support for it to be able to perform its role. However, with the correct team support, it most certainly does perform its role, and quite excellently. Which is why I believe that Fletchling is best suited for A+ rank, defined as:
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
S-Rank is defined as:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
By definition, Fletchling should theoretically not even be in S-Rank. It's a good, reusable revenge killer at best that can sometimes pull off a SD and attempt to sweep. At +0, however, it is incredibly weak. Foongus has a higher base attack stat than Fletchling. Foongus. It is unable to kill the things it's supposed to check, like Mienfoo, Foongus, Croagunk, Timburr, etc. which all can cripple or even KO Fletch. I know an argument I used to counter this is that these mons cannot be assumed to always be full health. However, the same then goes for Fletchling. If Fletchling is supposed to be switching in on something like Mienfoo's knock off, but it actually Drain Punches, then Fletch is dead.
This leads me to my next point. Fletchling is incredibly 50/50-based. "Oh, should I use u-turn to switch out of my counters that I can do literally nothing to except maybe continually "wear them down", or use acrobatics and not even kill this Mienfoo?". Fletchling can't even be using u-turn that much because it's weak to SR. Some "pivot" it is.
An S-Rank mon is supposed to be able to pull its own weight and greatly support the team. Obviously, Fletchling cannot do this. It simply requires too much team support for it to be able to perform its role. However, with the correct team support, it most certainly does perform its role, and quite excellently. Which is why I believe that Fletchling is best suited for A+ rank, defined as:
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
wow an entire page over a garbage mon... lets just forget that happened.
as for fletchling dropping to A+, at first I was strongly against it but now it's just so prepared for it just doesn't sweep like it used to. Whenever i'm building a team, I just put on fletchling checks without even think about it, as not only do they check fletchling, but they're really good pokemon, and certain ones (chinchou) can fit onto almost any team, and do excellently if fletchling is on the opposing team. Fletchling is still an amazing pokemon, but considering this, it is just not on the same level as pawniard or mienfoo (or chinchou but that's an argument for another time).
as for fletchling dropping to A+, at first I was strongly against it but now it's just so prepared for it just doesn't sweep like it used to. Whenever i'm building a team, I just put on fletchling checks without even think about it, as not only do they check fletchling, but they're really good pokemon, and certain ones (chinchou) can fit onto almost any team, and do excellently if fletchling is on the opposing team. Fletchling is still an amazing pokemon, but considering this, it is just not on the same level as pawniard or mienfoo (or chinchou but that's an argument for another time).
Good Morgan
Banned deucer.
REAL NOM
Snubbull A- -> A
Snubbull is the realest Fighting-Type check on the planet, for many reasons. First, her mono-Fairy typing is optimal for stopping the fighters. Second, Intimidate demolishes the hopes of every Fighting-Type in the tier bar Croagunk (however, Croagunk beats Spritzee as well.) Third, a set of Careful 36/36/196/-/196+/36 gives Snubbull 23/14/14 bulk, but with Intimidate that becomes 23/21/14!
Snubbull has the ability to fill a large number of roles, including tank, cleric, and crippler, with Play Rough/EQ, Heal Bell, and T-Wave, respectively. It also works effectively as a combination of all three of these things, with my personal set at the end of the post. Snubbull can also run both Berry Juice or Eviolite, but her lack of recovery hampers the Eviolite set. However, Snubbull also has RestTalk, and a set of Rest/Sleep Talk/Play Rough/Earthquake gives her the ability to sleep stuff off, as with Eviolite and Intimidate Snubbull has ridiculous 23/28/21 stats!
Overall, in a physical-based meta dominated by Fighting types, Snubbull has the defensive and offensive capabilities to check and counter a large portion of the metagame, and a move to neutral A seems past due to me!
EDIT: Forgot the set:
Snubbull @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 196 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Heal Bell
- Thunder Wave
Also can we please Sticky this thread?
Snubbull is the realest Fighting-Type check on the planet, for many reasons. First, her mono-Fairy typing is optimal for stopping the fighters. Second, Intimidate demolishes the hopes of every Fighting-Type in the tier bar Croagunk (however, Croagunk beats Spritzee as well.) Third, a set of Careful 36/36/196/-/196+/36 gives Snubbull 23/14/14 bulk, but with Intimidate that becomes 23/21/14!
Snubbull has the ability to fill a large number of roles, including tank, cleric, and crippler, with Play Rough/EQ, Heal Bell, and T-Wave, respectively. It also works effectively as a combination of all three of these things, with my personal set at the end of the post. Snubbull can also run both Berry Juice or Eviolite, but her lack of recovery hampers the Eviolite set. However, Snubbull also has RestTalk, and a set of Rest/Sleep Talk/Play Rough/Earthquake gives her the ability to sleep stuff off, as with Eviolite and Intimidate Snubbull has ridiculous 23/28/21 stats!
Overall, in a physical-based meta dominated by Fighting types, Snubbull has the defensive and offensive capabilities to check and counter a large portion of the metagame, and a move to neutral A seems past due to me!
EDIT: Forgot the set:
Snubbull @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 196 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Heal Bell
- Thunder Wave
Also can we please Sticky this thread?
I fucking love Snubbull. It's such a great check to Fighting-types and the prevalence of Knock Off, especially if running a Thief variant. Mienfoo and Timburr are forced to switch out unless they have Poison Jab, and even then Snubbull can still hit back even harder with Play Rough. However, Snubbull should remain at A-, mainly due to the fact that it cannot, and I mean cannot, switch into the strongest Knock Off user in the meta right now, Pawniard. Intimidate just boosts Pawniard's Attack and Iron Head is KOing regardless, leaving Snubbull unable to fulfill its role as a Knock Off check. It also is unable to handle some of the hardest hitters in the metagame, even when they're at a -1 boost, and I know it hasn't been released yet, but Gunk Shot Pancham takes a huge shit on Snubbull.REAL NOM
Snubbull A- -> A
Snubbull is the realest Fighting-Type check on the planet, for many reasons. First, her mono-Fairy typing is optimal for stopping the fighters. Second, Intimidate demolishes the hopes of every Fighting-Type in the tier bar Croagunk (however, Croagunk beats Spritzee as well.) Third, a set of Careful 36/36/196/-/196+/36 gives Snubbull 23/14/14 bulk, but with Intimidate that becomes 23/21/14!
Snubbull has the ability to fill a large number of roles, including tank, cleric, and crippler, with Play Rough/EQ, Heal Bell, and T-Wave, respectively. It also works effectively as a combination of all three of these things, with my personal set at the end of the post. Snubbull can also run both Berry Juice or Eviolite, but her lack of recovery hampers the Eviolite set. However, Snubbull also has RestTalk, and a set of Rest/Sleep Talk/Play Rough/Earthquake gives her the ability to sleep stuff off, as with Eviolite and Intimidate Snubbull has ridiculous 23/28/21 stats!
Overall, in a physical-based meta dominated by Fighting types, Snubbull has the defensive and offensive capabilities to check and counter a large portion of the metagame, and a move to neutral A seems past due to me!
Good Morgan
Banned deucer.
Dang. That's a good argument. However, I can't really think of things that beat it other than Pawn, Fletch as a revenge, and GunkCham. Not to be rude, but got any examples? Mostly physical and/or at -1 would be preferred, as that is Snub's main objective
Mienfoo can Poison Jab on the switch-in and U-turn, outspeeding it. Timburr can do the same but simply switch out. Ferroseed can deal with Snubbull easily as long as its not a Fire Punch variant (which is quite bad, as it then loses a lot of coverage). A lot of other physical attackers will most likely lose 1v1, but they significantly dent Snubbull and Snubbull has no means of recovery outside of RestTalk (unlike Spritzee), so it ends up being in KO range for the Pokemon it's supposed to check. You already mentioned Pawniard, Fletch and Pancham. Like any Pokemon, it has its flaws, but Snubbull is a solid Pokemon and can take on a majority of top-tier physical attackers, notably Mienfoo, Timburr, and Ponyta, which is why it's at A-.
Good Morgan
Banned deucer.
Not to be rude, but two points seem to stand out to me:
- I don't think I've ever seen Poison Jab Mienfoo irl, mostly Fake Out or Acro, but that could be lower ladder syndrome.
- To hit Snubs on the switch with a Poison Jab would take some pretty good prediction, and Snubs is meant to switch in on predicted Fighting type attacks anyways. This argument takes prediction into heavy account.
Snubbull's great at fulfilling its role as a Fighting-check, but to a merit a spot on a legitimate team, a Pokemon needs to either be able to fulfill that one role to the best possible extent or function in a few different roles quite nicely. Snubbull, even after smacking foes with an Intimidate drop, is still taking around 20-30% from opposing physical attackers that aren't Fighting-type, and that's with an Eviolite.
-1 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
-1 180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Its inability to truly check non-Fighting-type physical attackers throughout an entire game is quite detrimental to its success as a physical wall / pivot. This whole argument has been based around its physical walling capabilities, which makes sense considering it's Snubbull, but you also have to consider how much damage special moves are dealing to Snubbull, especially those that are super effective.
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As an all-around pivot and wall, Snubbull is quite solid, but it requires a partner that can switch into the variety of chip damage that Snubbull does not want to take throughout the game. If it could stand alone as a fantastic pivot, it'd find itself at A, possibly even A+ or S (*cough* Mienfoo *cough*). Unfortunately, it can't.
Good Morgan
Banned deucer.
Welp, that's all, folks! Im out!
Nasty Pass is strongly outclassed by mime jr and aipom. Dunno what niche it actually has because it's pretty bad at passing
Aipom is frail af and weak to the most common attacking types. Mime Jr has no physical bulk and struggles to set up on anything. Togepi has just Fairy which allows it to set up on fighters and not be afraid of knock off. It also basically can avoid the 2hko from most things in the tier
Togepi has no bulk and struggles even more to set up than either. Jr. can use the boosts and at least has Filter.
Also wtf aipom is as bulky as Mienfoo.
23/24/21 after evio is no bulk now. ok then
I didn't say Mime Jr. is supposed to be taking hits. Mime has offensive presence, and Aipom really doesn't have anything better to do.
Togepi absolutely hates poison jabs and eating iron heads. there's no way it's forcing out the most common Pokemon when they have a good chance of winning
what kind of retarded reasoning is that. You're not going to set up on things that have super effective hits.
0 Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Togepi: 2-2 (8.6 - 8.6%)
236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Togepi: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The point of togepi is you bring it in a mon that doesnt threaten it and Nasty Plot. Its great bulk allows it live any super effective hit and baton pass out. In this scenario you bring in togepi after u-turn into it or let something die to mienfoo. Here togepi nasty plots on the u-turn and easily tanks the iron head to get off the nasty plot into the recipient of your choice. Aipom is much moe viable as an offensive threat than a nasty passer. Aipom lacks the resistances that Fairy type gives and struggles to set up on the most common lc pokemon as many of them cleanly 2hko it. I'm not even gonna bring up mime because its an inferior togepi
Mime Jr i guess hits harder because Technician but has to rely on like Confusion and has no Fairy STAB so Dark types will have to be smacked with HP FIght which allocates EVs and also lowers all over EV distribution.
Aipom is better off attacking physically. If i want a normal type with Nasty Plot, I'll use Meowth instead.
Aipom is better off attacking physically. If i want a normal type with Nasty Plot, I'll use Meowth instead.
Alright, here's my two cents on the recent nominations:
1) Fletchling to A+:
I agree with this. While Fletch is obviously a very good mon in the tier, as evidenced by the fact that it had to be suspected at one point, it is not worthy of S Rank in the current meta. The metagame has adapted and now nearly every succesful team carries at least one check to it. This means that Fletchling has trouble sweeping. Fletchling also cannot sweep after its checks and counters are gone if it does not have boosts- with 200+ investment, it reaches 15 Attack. To put that into perspective, Mienfoo and Pawniard both hit 15 Attack uninvested. It also can't effectively provide momentum with the U-Turn sets because its Stealth Rock weakness forces it to frequently Roost, which loses momentum. The mixed lure sets don't even work anymore because people know that Fletchling often runs the lure set and are prepared for it, not leaving their Pawniard in on a Fletchling (unless it's Eviolite).
TL;DR: In my opinion, Fletchling can't do everything that made it good enough to be suspected well in this current metagame. It's still good, but not worthy of S.
2) Togepi to D:
I agree with this. Togepi is the best NastyPasser in the tier, as Mime Jr. has worse Defense and HP stats. It also has access to reliable recovery, something Mime Jr. does not, and a larger support movepool than Mime lets it pass more easily. It also got a buff this generation with the new Fairy type, which has a very useful Fighting resistance and lets it set up on most of the Fighting types that dominate the tier. Togepi is by no means the best mon in the tier, but it has a good niche and it does it very well.
TL;DR: Togepi is the best NastyPasser in the tier, with solid mixed bulk, a wide support movepool, and reliable recovery that lets it pass more than once if necessary.
Two other things I've been thinking about:
1) I agree with Good Morgan that this thread should be stickied, it's both a great tool for teambuilding and a very active site of discussion.
2) I suggest that we add a definition of the term "viable Pokemon" to the OP. This way, when someone suggests a shitmon like Drowzee, instead of spending a page and a half trying to explain to them why Drowzee isn't viable, we can simply quote the OP and say, "See, Drowzee doesn't fit the definition of a viable Pokemon," and send them on their merry way.
An example situation of where this could be useful:
That's about all I have to say. That took way longer to write than you'd think, I'm not used to the formatting here (also my dog kept bothering me and being really cute so I had to play with him.).
1) Fletchling to A+:
I agree with this. While Fletch is obviously a very good mon in the tier, as evidenced by the fact that it had to be suspected at one point, it is not worthy of S Rank in the current meta. The metagame has adapted and now nearly every succesful team carries at least one check to it. This means that Fletchling has trouble sweeping. Fletchling also cannot sweep after its checks and counters are gone if it does not have boosts- with 200+ investment, it reaches 15 Attack. To put that into perspective, Mienfoo and Pawniard both hit 15 Attack uninvested. It also can't effectively provide momentum with the U-Turn sets because its Stealth Rock weakness forces it to frequently Roost, which loses momentum. The mixed lure sets don't even work anymore because people know that Fletchling often runs the lure set and are prepared for it, not leaving their Pawniard in on a Fletchling (unless it's Eviolite).
TL;DR: In my opinion, Fletchling can't do everything that made it good enough to be suspected well in this current metagame. It's still good, but not worthy of S.
2) Togepi to D:
I agree with this. Togepi is the best NastyPasser in the tier, as Mime Jr. has worse Defense and HP stats. It also has access to reliable recovery, something Mime Jr. does not, and a larger support movepool than Mime lets it pass more easily. It also got a buff this generation with the new Fairy type, which has a very useful Fighting resistance and lets it set up on most of the Fighting types that dominate the tier. Togepi is by no means the best mon in the tier, but it has a good niche and it does it very well.
<<< Contradictions
TL;DR: Togepi is the best NastyPasser in the tier, with solid mixed bulk, a wide support movepool, and reliable recovery that lets it pass more than once if necessary.
Two other things I've been thinking about:
1) I agree with Good Morgan that this thread should be stickied, it's both a great tool for teambuilding and a very active site of discussion.
2) I suggest that we add a definition of the term "viable Pokemon" to the OP. This way, when someone suggests a shitmon like Drowzee, instead of spending a page and a half trying to explain to them why Drowzee isn't viable, we can simply quote the OP and say, "See, Drowzee doesn't fit the definition of a viable Pokemon," and send them on their merry way.
"A viable Pokemon is a Pokemon that possesses one or more usable roles in the current metagame and execute this role(s) better than any other Pokemon in the current metagame."
(Roles/niches = revenge killer, set-up sweeper, bulky physical attacker, fast special attacker, etc.)
(Roles/niches = revenge killer, set-up sweeper, bulky physical attacker, fast special attacker, etc.)
An example situation of where this could be useful:
(Scenario: A noob decides that Wurmple should be S Rank and tries to explain why. A helpful user kindly shows him the definition and offers to help him learn the LC metagame [sidenote: if you ever encounter someone who seriously thinks that Wurmple should be S, do not help them. Cry in a corner for days on end and desperately try to regain your faith in humanity.].)
FitchBucker69: I think Wurmple should be considered viable and am therefore nominating it for S Rank because its mixed Snore set with Assault Vest is capable of sweeping most of the tier with the proper support (read: full BP chain).
HelpfulUser: Hi there FitchBucker69, welcome to Smogon! I don't think your set for Wurmple fits the definition of a viable Pokemon (using my definition because there aren't any others I could find, also ego): "A viable Pokemon is a Pokemon that possesses one or more usable roles in the current metagame and execute this role(s) better than any other Pokemon in the current metagame." Since you didn't specify which niche this Wurmple is supposed to fulfill, the Viability Ranking Council will not consider your nomination for it to be viable and given the S Rank. If you can prove that Wurmple is the best Pokemon for a certain usable role, I'm sure they will be happy to consider your nomination. If you'd like to learn more about the Little Cup tier, feel free to PM me and we can chat!
FitchBucker69: Ok thanks HelpfulUser, I really appreciate your offer, and I'm glad to accept! Maybe once I learn the intricacies of the metagame, I can prove that Wurmple deserves S Rank.
(And everyone is happy. Now I know how hard it is to write one of those shitty videos on not doing drugs or some shit like that they show in health class.)
FitchBucker69: I think Wurmple should be considered viable and am therefore nominating it for S Rank because its mixed Snore set with Assault Vest is capable of sweeping most of the tier with the proper support (read: full BP chain).
Wurmple @ Assault Vest
Ability: Shield Dust
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Serious Nature
- Electroweb
- Poison Sting
- String Shot
- Snore
Ability: Shield Dust
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Serious Nature
- Electroweb
- Poison Sting
- String Shot
- Snore
HelpfulUser: Hi there FitchBucker69, welcome to Smogon! I don't think your set for Wurmple fits the definition of a viable Pokemon (using my definition because there aren't any others I could find, also ego): "A viable Pokemon is a Pokemon that possesses one or more usable roles in the current metagame and execute this role(s) better than any other Pokemon in the current metagame." Since you didn't specify which niche this Wurmple is supposed to fulfill, the Viability Ranking Council will not consider your nomination for it to be viable and given the S Rank. If you can prove that Wurmple is the best Pokemon for a certain usable role, I'm sure they will be happy to consider your nomination. If you'd like to learn more about the Little Cup tier, feel free to PM me and we can chat!
FitchBucker69: Ok thanks HelpfulUser, I really appreciate your offer, and I'm glad to accept! Maybe once I learn the intricacies of the metagame, I can prove that Wurmple deserves S Rank.
(And everyone is happy. Now I know how hard it is to write one of those shitty videos on not doing drugs or some shit like that they show in health class.)
That's about all I have to say. That took way longer to write than you'd think, I'm not used to the formatting here (also my dog kept bothering me and being really cute so I had to play with him.).
I'll state another, slightly different case for Fletch at S: it's really a support mon with a chance to sweep. It, without much assistance: checks fighting types, the fearsome Sun Bellsprout, as well as other defensively-weak sweepers such as Carvanha. It slammed Scraggy, a great DD mon, to B-tier (was it the only reason? no. But if you asked "why no DD scraggy sweeps anymore", a good answer is Fletch). It threatens grass-types and fighting types. It can be used as a lure to set up other mons. Every team can check it, but being forced to go to archen and blow your sun turns is probably the biggest pain of using Bellsprout and that's what makes it S-tier. The ability to clean weakened teams (besides when it's on a main FletchDig team) is a bonus, so the "every team checks with pawn" maybe doesn't work
- Status