Resource LC Viability Rankings

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Timburr is not nearly as good at being slapped onto teams as mienfoo or pawniard. Mienfoo is, and pretty much always has been, the fighting type that is going to get slapped onto teams that need a fighting type the vast majority of the time. All of my teams have fighting types, 70% being mienfoo, 10% being croagunk, and 20% being timburr (I don't really use pancham). I don't really think I need to explain why mienfoo is better than timburr, because anyone who says something different hasn't been using mienfoo right. Pawniard has excellent typing, one of the strongest knock offs in the game, deters defog, and deters sticky web as a playstyle. It only hits 16 Spe and has a huge fighting weakness, though. Although it does have shortcomings, it overcomes these very easily. Timburr has priority, is bulky, and has a very potent sweeping move. However, it is slow and faces severe competition from all the other fighting types, basically limiting it to a sweeping role most of the time. It is very good at what it does, but not as good as mienfoo or pawniard. As for it not being better than fletchling or chinchou, neither face competition. Fletchling is the best revenge killer in the tier and one of the best sweepers, and is still scary to face, despite all of it's checks. Chinchou is the second best pivot in the metagame, and is extremely difficult to switch into because of scald and volt switch. Timburr isn't a standout among the other A+ mons either, and, in my opinion, is on the weaker side of A+.
 
Do you happen to have any specific examples, or are you just sorta putting that out there? From what I've seen and read, Timburr has many positives and is very good at being slapped onto teams.
Timburr is definitely up there with Chinchou (and Pawniard too imo, I've never found him as dangerous as a Mienfoo) but Fletchling and Mienfoo is just on another level. Mienfoo is #1 most used pokemon in LC for a longer time than I have been here in Smogon, for a reason. I've seen eviolite variants leave all 6 enemy pokemon with single digit HPs (flat, percentage-wise lower than 45) while maintaining 100% health. I've seen scarf variants go 1v4+ and win games. Fletchling is even worse than BW DD Scraggy and BW DD Scraggy was so strong that he made Shelmet relevant. Fletchling has an entire metagame revolving around him. The only reason he's not in S is because he's figured out to death.

Timburr isn't and has never been such a threat.

Timburr to S? No.
 

Good Morgan

Banned deucer.
Timburr is not nearly as good at being slapped onto teams as mienfoo or pawniard. Mienfoo is, and pretty much always has been, the fighting type that is going to get slapped onto teams that need a fighting type the vast majority of the time. All of my teams have fighting types, 70% being mienfoo, 10% being croagunk, and 20% being timburr (I don't really use pancham). I don't really think I need to explain why mienfoo is better than timburr, because anyone who says something different hasn't been using mienfoo right. Pawniard has excellent typing, one of the strongest knock offs in the game, deters defog, and deters sticky web as a playstyle. It only hits 16 Spe and has a huge fighting weakness, though. Although it does have shortcomings, it overcomes these very easily. Timburr has priority, is bulky, and has a very potent sweeping move. However, it is slow and faces severe competition from all the other fighting types, basically limiting it to a sweeping role most of the time. It is very good at what it does, but not as good as mienfoo or pawniard. As for it not being better than fletchling or chinchou, neither face competition. Fletchling is the best revenge killer in the tier and one of the best sweepers, and is still scary to face, despite all of it's checks. Chinchou is the second best pivot in the metagame, and is extremely difficult to switch into because of scald and volt switch. Timburr isn't a standout among the other A+ mons either, and, in my opinion, is on the weaker side of A+.
It is not Timburr's job to be a pivot. Rather, Timburr is either a Bulk Up sweeper or a bulky attacker. Mienfoo is not better than Timburr at those roles. Mienfoo is considered better than Timburr because its vesatility as a pivot allow it to fit itself onto quicker teams, the predominant teams in LC.

Timburr does not face severe competition from other fighting types. Really, the fighting types play different roles. Timburr is better for bulky teams due to its ability to absorb status and to beat Pawniard. Also, if one of your main points against raising a Fighting type to S is Fletch, you really should reconsider a little. The game no longer revolves around him so much now that he's figured out so much and it is not difficult at all to check him.
 
It is not Timburr's job to be a pivot. Rather, Timburr is either a Bulk Up sweeper or a bulky attacker. Mienfoo is not better than Timburr at those roles. Mienfoo is considered better than Timburr because its vesatility as a pivot allow it to fit itself onto quicker teams, the predominant teams in LC.

Timburr does not face severe competition from other fighting types. Really, the fighting types play different roles. Timburr is better for bulky teams due to its ability to absorb status and to beat Pawniard. Also, if one of your main points against raising a Fighting type to S is Fletch, you really should reconsider a little. The game no longer revolves around him so much now that he's figured out so much and it is not difficult at all to check him.
Well, Mienfoo's Eviolite set is a bulky attacker, so Mienfoo already outclasses Timburr in that way. Timburr's only set that makes it S-worthy in the slightest is its Bulk Up set, which is really hard to set up with, in my opinion, since it gets worn down so easily trying to switch in (because even with a Bulk Up set, you're still going to be using Timburr to absorb status, take hits, etc) , that once it finally finds a way to set up, it won't really sweep. So many teams have an answer for Timburr, it doesn't really sweep as often against good teams as people claim it to be. Fairy-types completely stop Timburr, as well as the potent Special mons in the tier, such as Skrelp, Gastly, Abra, Gothita, etc. which resist Drain Punch, negating Timburr's method of recovery. I'm not saying Bulk Up Timburr is bad or anything, but seeing that this is the only set it can use that Mienfoo doesn't use better itself, it's just not S-Worthy. I do realize Timburr's Bulky Set absorbs status, unlike Mienfoo, however, status isn't too common Little Cup, so bring able to absorb status wouldn't really be a feature to give Timburr S Rank.

I'm on my phone so I'll expand more on this topic when I get home
 

Good Morgan

Banned deucer.
Well, Mienfoo's Eviolite set is a bulky attacker, so Mienfoo already outclasses Timburr in that way. Timburr's only set that makes it S-worthy in the slightest is its Bulk Up set, which is really hard to set up with, in my opinion, since it gets worn down so easily trying to switch in (because even with a Bulk Up set, you're still going to be using Timburr to absorb status, take hits, etc) , that once it finally finds a way to set up, it won't really sweep. So many teams have an answer for Timburr, it doesn't really sweep as often against good teams as people claim it to be. Fairy-types completely stop Timburr, as well as the potent Special mons in the tier, such as Skrelp, Gastly, Abra, Gothita, etc. which resist Drain Punch, negating Timburr's method of recovery. I'm not saying Bulk Up Timburr is bad or anything, but seeing that this is the only set it can use that Mienfoo doesn't use better itself, it's just not S-Worthy. I do realize Timburr's Bulky Set absorbs status, unlike Mienfoo, however, status isn't too common Little Cup, so bring able to absorb status wouldn't really be a feature to give Timburr S Rank.

I'm on my phone so I'll expand more on this topic when I get home
Abra, Goth, and Gastly actually all lose to SpD Timburr in a 1v1, as Timburr only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO from full health. Timburr can hit with Knock Off then use Mach Punch to clean. Of course, this isn't a common situation that you'd want to be in, but it demonstrates Timburr's real good bulk. Also, status is at least as common as it is everywhere else.
 
It is not Timburr's job to be a pivot. Rather, Timburr is either a Bulk Up sweeper or a bulky attacker. Mienfoo is not better than Timburr at those roles. Mienfoo is considered better than Timburr because its vesatility as a pivot allow it to fit itself onto quicker teams, the predominant teams in LC.

Timburr does not face severe competition from other fighting types. Really, the fighting types play different roles. Timburr is better for bulky teams due to its ability to absorb status and to beat Pawniard. Also, if one of your main points against raising a Fighting type to S is Fletch, you really should reconsider a little. The game no longer revolves around him so much now that he's figured out so much and it is not difficult at all to check him.
Abra, Goth, and Gastly actually all lose to SpD Timburr in a 1v1, as Timburr only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO from full health. Timburr can hit with Knock Off then use Mach Punch to clean. Of course, this isn't a common situation that you'd want to be in, but it demonstrates Timburr's real good bulk. Also, status is at least as common as it is everywhere else.
let's not pretend timburr's going to be at full health, because most of the time it won't be when needing to survive things. He would have to have just gotten in, and even then with volt switch and u-turn running rampant he'll have some sort of damage on him. If it were to get S rank (which it shouldn't), it would have to be for it's bulk up sweeper set, because literally all other roles are outclassed by mienfoo, croagunk, or pancham. It is not easily slapped on teams like people are saying, because more than often croagunk, mienfoo, or pancham will fulfill the slot on the team better.

I'm not saying Timburr shouldn't be S rank because of fletch lol, I'm saying that it doesn't warrant S rank more than fletch does.

Edit: forgot to say, even on bulky teams it faces competition from croagunk and mienfoo, as mienfoo has regenerator and croagunk deals with pawniard better.
 
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croagunk deals with pawniard better.
After Croagunk has been Knocked Off, it can easily die to Pawniard's Iron Head if the opponent predicts Croagunk's switch in later in the game. Timburr is bulky enough as to where it can continuously threaten Pawniard throughout the battle, even if Knock Off has been used on it. Croagunk is considered on bulkier teams due to its ability to check every Fighting-typein the tier and because it can handle Pawniard decently, not because it deals with pawniard better than Timburr does. That is just not true.
 
I think timburr fits A+ better than S given its compition and lower general team utility, especially when compared to mienfoo, who it competes with almost directly for a team slot. Timburr is a threatening sweeper, but it sacrifices so much of the utility mienshao provides, and that utility is hard to make up for. Despite how threatening it is in a vacuum I find it less threatening than other sweepers because it can't make use of all the early and mid game work mienfoo does, and so using timburr is almost a handicap when team building, as you lose on reliably checking a sizable number of threats, and also sacrifice the biggest momentum gaining mon in the tier. Timburr is great, but A+ recognizes the team building strain.
 

Good Morgan

Banned deucer.
I think timburr fits A+ better than S given its compition and lower general team utility, especially when compared to mienfoo, who it competes with almost directly for a team slot. Timburr is a threatening sweeper, but it sacrifices so much of the utility mienshao provides, and that utility is hard to make up for. Despite how threatening it is in a vacuum I find it less threatening than other sweepers because it can't make use of all the early and mid game work mienfoo does, and so using timburr is almost a handicap when team building, as you lose on reliably checking a sizable number of threats, and also sacrifice the biggest momentum gaining mon in the tier. Timburr is great, but A+ recognizes the team building strain.
What kind of strain does Timburr put on teambuilding? Who do you you lose out on checking? Like, not to be rude, but you literally check every mon Foo does plus frail sweepers with Mach Punch.

EDIT: I would also bring to your attention that 3/4 of the "Team Options" section on Timburr's analysis is about how it helps teams:
Archen likes to switch into Timburr, and a well-timed Knock Off paves the way for sweepers such as Scraggy and Bunnelby late-game, making them good partners. Timburr can also take on Snover and Amaura thanks to Mach Punch, meaning it is a good option on a sun team or paired with Grass-type Pokemon such as Foongus. Timburr is also one of the best switch-ins to Porygon due to its typing, bulk, and Guts, so Pokemon like Chinchou appreciate Timburr's presence on a team. Setup sweepers like Fletchling appreciate Timburr softening up opposing defensive Pokemon with Knock Off. Pawniard is another good option forming a dual Knock Off core with Timburr, and Pawniard can also take on the Fairy-types that give Timburr trouble. A teammate that can handle Flying-types is also necessary for Timburr, Archen being one good option.
 
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What kind of strain does Timburr put on teambuilding? Who do you you lose out on checking? Like, not to be rude, but you literally check every mon Foo does plus frail sweepers with Mach Punch.

EDIT: I would also bring to your attention that 3/4 of the "Team Options" section on Timburr's analysis is about how it helps teams:
Archen likes to switch into Timburr, and a well-timed Knock Off paves the way for sweepers such as Scraggy and Bunnelby late-game, making them good partners. Timburr can also take on Snover and Amaura thanks to Mach Punch, meaning it is a good option on a sun team or paired with Grass-type Pokemon such as Foongus. Timburr is also one of the best switch-ins to Porygon due to its typing, bulk, and Guts, so Pokemon like Chinchou appreciate Timburr's presence on a team. Setup sweepers like Fletchling appreciate Timburr softening up opposing defensive Pokemon with Knock Off. Pawniard is another good option forming a dual Knock Off core with Timburr, and Pawniard can also take on the Fairy-types that give Timburr trouble. A teammate that can handle Flying-types is also necessary for Timburr, Archen being one good option.
You check them, and in the process of checking them lose hp, meaning that your sweep is less likely to happen. The point of my post, not to be rude, was that yes you can check them, but you weaken the ability to sweep with every hit you take. I'm not arguing it's bad, but S rank is excessive.

Your post about good teammates is somewhat redundant given mienfoo does most of the same things, minus the point about Mach punch, one of the reasons mienfoo doesn't outclass it compeletu as a bulky fighting type.

Frankly I rank it about where I eank croagunk, which should join it in A+ because of the favorable matchups against most mons.

They're both good, but mienfoo and pawniard are both a step above.
 
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Fiend

someguy
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Timburr is a great mon, I will give it that. However it doesn't necessarily tie with Mienfoo if you're adding things that can check stuff. Mienfoo has the ability to basically never die when it sees fit, something that Timburr battles with due to only being able to recover via Drain Punch (admittedly that isn't too bad). Timburr often finds itself with less than ideal health and this matter is only continued more thanks to its low speed. While Mach punch does help alleviate this, it isn't perfect. The lackluster speed leads to Timburr needing to brave a hit, then recover maybe an average of half of the damage taken back with Drain Punch. Versus Pawn, Timburr comes out scarred. After two mid rolls from K Off + Iron Head (Mach doesn't KO from full), Timburr is eviolite less and below 80% (thankfully it was able to recover a little more than half), a range where ever Fletchling can revenge it with its precise Eviolite. However, all that is assumed with 14 defense and leaves you vulnerable to many special threats which you boast about beating. Specs Goth is able to beat it regardless of where you dump your EV's into its, as can LO Abra.

Yes, Timburr can sweep. Yes, Timburr can check most of what Foo does. Yes, it can beat Sashbra 1v1. Yes, it can even support its team. However, it can struggle to sweep due to wanting to check things. If it does set up, it may or may not be in a range where Abra can eliminate it, making that point null and void. Timburr is a scary mon, but not worthy of S rank.

What kind of strain does Timburr put on teambuilding? Who do you you lose out on checking? Like, not to be rude, but you literally check every mon Foo does plus frail sweepers with Mach Punch.

EDIT: I would also bring to your attention that 3/4 of the "Team Options" section on Timburr's analysis is about how it helps teams:
Archen likes to switch into Timburr, and a well-timed Knock Off paves the way for sweepers such as Scraggy and Bunnelby late-game, making them good partners. Timburr can also take on Snover and Amaura thanks to Mach Punch, meaning it is a good option on a sun team or paired with Grass-type Pokemon such as Foongus. Timburr is also one of the best switch-ins to Porygon due to its typing, bulk, and Guts, so Pokemon like Chinchou appreciate Timburr's presence on a team. Setup sweepers like Fletchling appreciate Timburr softening up opposing defensive Pokemon with Knock Off. Pawniard is another good option forming a dual Knock Off core with Timburr, and Pawniard can also take on the Fairy-types that give Timburr trouble. A teammate that can handle Flying-types is also necessary for Timburr, Archen being one good option.
Are we surprised that a pokemon can check the same pokemon as another when they have the exact same typing? Especially when they run 2 of the same moves on all of their sets? Additionally, anything with Knock Off supports the team, even Aipom. That's more or less the only things Aipom does to be a team player.

What you lose out on checking lies in what Foo's 4th move is. Feint/Fake Out for Abra and the like, HJK and Stone Edge for Fletchling and most other birds. Hell, Acro lets you check fighters too, also turning Gunk into bait. Acro also nicely cleans up Foongus which even Timburr dislikes.
 
I am party to the belief that timburr should stay at A+

Tim is very good, very effective, and quite self reliant. It runs a number of dangerous sets, ranging from its most prominent BU set, to four attacks, and probably a few others. I firmly believe that timburr is not fully realized as far as his potential is concerned, and will likely see new sets appear to take advantage of his ability, bulk, and attacks in the near future.

that being said, in terms of power, usability, and versatility, timbur is far closer to a number of high A tier threats than the S tier threats.
basically my argument is this:
abra: runs sash, or on occasion the LO set (which is surprising but also easily beaten) it fits onto most teams well, adding to the majority.
ponyta: runs sunnyday physical set, or on occasion special sunny day (which is unexpected but also far easier to stop)it fits onto most teams well, adding to the majority.
timburr: runs bulk up, or possibly a bulky attacker set (which is surprising but also far less threatening as it cant boost) it fits onto most teams well, adding to the majority.
pawniard: can run a vast array of sets effectively (eviolite, rocks support, scarf, Life Orb) it can fit onto just about any team and improve it.
Meinfoo: can run a vast array of sets effectively (pivot, bulky attacker, scarf, Life Orb, heck even rain dance) it can fit onto just about any team and improve it.


Tim is a great Pokemon with a great move-set, but is a bit too one dimensional in terms of what he can do without being outclassed to merit S.
If it learns some new tricks I would support its move, until than, leave it.
 
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My little cent about Timburr. Its difference from Mienfoo is clear, you have just told about it and we knows better what they are. But despite its unique role, Timburr does it extremely well. I think it's important consider when we are bulding around. What are the factors that cause people to favour one option (Timburr) over another (Mienfoo)?
Well very often we choose Timburr; prefering its bulky features, its capability of taking hits and damage opponents. It could be a really good bulky attacker, we know that with BU or not. Mienfoo is great but it's different, versatile and fantastic but not so bulky and depending more than Timburr on its teammates.

I like see Foo and Timburr as good apart teammates because they integrate very well.

I'm for S both, of course togheter Pawniard and Mienfoo.
 
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Rowan

The professor?
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another thing about aipom is it is actually a really cool 'anti-lead' to any common lead. I know the lead metagame doesn't really exist, but with skill link it KOs the web+sash users that have gained popularity. it also has the option of using taunt to beat dwebble. but yeah, i've been using 4 attacks aipom with swipes, Knock off, uturn, brick break and it's really cool.

also agreeing on wynaut's drop, it's just completely outclassed by goth in terms of trapping, and there's more effective ways of supporting setup sweepers (pancham, memento)

elekid should stay B- for the reason Omastar42 stated. it has it's niche on HO teams that can get demolished by frail fast things like abra/gastly and it's a fantastic all round revenge killer

aipom C+ -> B-
karrablast D -> C-
wynaut B- -> C+

I'll leave timburr discussion for a bit, and i'll give my two cents on it in a bit (watch this space)
 

doomsday doink

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Spritzee for A+. It's a crucial part of the metagame, defining stall and finding a place on most balance teams. Cleric set makes it the best support Pokemon in the tier and the CM set doesn't turn Spritzee into set-up bait for anything not hit super hard by Moonblast.
[2:31:42 PM] Mambo: how is spritzee not a+
[2:36:35 PM] Jac: hurr pawniard
[2:36:38 PM] Rowan: easy to wear down
[2:36:41 PM] Jac: hurr gunk shot / poison jab
[2:36:44 PM] Jac: hurr ponyta
[2:36:45 PM] Mambo: it has wish
[2:36:48 PM] Rowan: 'hello set up sweepers please set up on me'
[2:36:48 PM] Mambo: how is it easy
[2:36:54 PM] Mambo: it's a set up sweeper half the time
[2:36:57 PM] Rowan: always gets knocked off
[2:37:01 PM] Jac: well physical ones not weak to moontroll
[2:37:25 PM] Mambo: it's a key piece of the two most common defensive cores rn
[2:37:33 PM] Rowan: srsly spritzee is a liability to balance teams with a late game set up sweeper
[2:37:45 PM] Jac: tbh I still see spritzee as a+
[2:37:53 PM] Jac: it's bulk and support is infailliable
[2:37:53 PM] Mambo: it's a rlly good mon
[2:38:00 PM] Jac: I cant spell that fucking work
[2:38:02 PM] Jac: word*
[2:38:07 PM] Jac: but yeah spritzee = mgud af mon
[2:38:13 PM] Jac: it is a keystone in stall
[2:38:15 PM] Rowan: is that common defensive core 'numel spritz'
[2:38:15 PM] Rowan: ?
[2:38:22 PM] Jac: excuse you
[2:38:25 PM] Jac: that's not it
[2:38:29 PM] Jac: it's ferro + spritz
[2:38:29 PM] Mambo: ferrospritz poryspritz
[2:38:34 PM] Jac: oh yh pory
[2:38:38 PM] Rowan: tbh yeah, you can't have stall without spritzee,
[2:38:41 PM] Rowan: it like
[2:38:44 PM] Rowan: defines stall
[2:38:53 PM] Mambo: it's also quite common on balance
[2:39:04 PM] Rowan: yeah
[2:39:04 PM] Mambo: and if it matters, it's a key piece of TR
[2:39:07 PM] Mambo: lol
[2:39:12 PM] Rowan: make a post lol
[2:39:22 PM] Mambo: can i just c&p this convo
[2:39:25 PM] Mambo: as evidence
 
Stunky ---> B
Stunky is actually really good right now, being able to fulfill multiple roles on the team. It basically makes abra and gastly dead when they switch in, can taunt 17 Spe leads, has priority, can defog very nicely, and can give sweepers easy switchins with explosion. It even has decent bulk, allowing it to take hits.
Trubbish ---> B-
Many will probably disagree, but I believe Trubbish isn't as good as the other B mons. It is trapped by both gothita and diglett, loses momentum for offense, and faces tons of competition from Ferroseed on stall and semi stall. It does wall fighters and pawniard, but stall has other things that deal with them and half the time doesn't need Trubbish. I don't run stall myself, but most stall teams I see opt for ferro as a spike stacker.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
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Stunky ---> B
Stunky is actually really good right now, being able to fulfill multiple roles on the team. It basically makes abra and gastly dead when they switch in, can taunt 17 Spe leads, has priority, can defog very nicely, and can give sweepers easy switchins with explosion. It even has decent bulk, allowing it to take hits.
Trubbish ---> B-
Many will probably disagree, but I believe Trubbish isn't as good as the other B mons. It is trapped by both gothita and diglett, loses momentum for offense, and faces tons of competition from Ferroseed on stall and semi stall. It does wall fighters and pawniard, but stall has other things that deal with them and half the time doesn't need Trubbish. I don't run stall myself, but most stall teams I see opt for ferro as a spike stacker.
p sure no one will disagree that trub is getting bad

with pancham having mb knock off, trub's job gets a hell of a lot harder. of there's an enemy pancham, you can bet ur trub aint doin anything it wants to do until it's gone.
 

Celestavian

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I thought Timburr was S material a little while ago, and while I definitely think it toes the line, I think Timburr should stay A+. We all know how much of a monster it is once it gets up a Bulk Up, but I'd like to stress how difficult that can be. First of all, having a Fairy-type on your team means that Timburr simply cannot use Bulk Up until it has been eliminated, and pretty much forces it to spam Knock Off hoping to catch a switch. Even without that, Abra and Gastly make using Bulk Up a pain since they can come in and severely weaken or outright KO Timburr regardless of how many Bulk Up boosts it has. There's also Flying-types and Poison-types that aren't Trubbish to make Timburr's job harder. Finally, some Pokemon like Mienfoo can run surprise Acrobatics or other such unexpected moves and ruin your day. Timburr doesn't require a Bulk Up to be a threat, but without it, it finds itself worn down over time a little too easily.

As for Spritzee, I think it's fine in A. It is the defining Pokemon of stall teams, yes, but stall isn't exactly that great in this metagame. As a defensive Pokemon, while not exactly offensively inert like Bronzor was, struggles to pose a threat once its in against something that isn't a Fighting-type. Two-slot recovery means that running something like Toxic to threaten walls it can't touch is impossible without giving up Aromatherapy. It's very bulky, but since it naturally gets Knocked Off almost every game, it finds it hard to take moves it doesn't resist. Being defensively oriented, it also saps momentum, and from the balance teams I've been trying it on, it's been pretty underwhelming mostly for that reason. As for the Calm Mind set, this is a set that seems amazing on paper, but in practice is mediocre. Calm Mind comes at the cost of either Aromatherapy or Protect, and the mono-attacking nature of the set means you absolutely need Calm Mind boosts to be effective. It also lacks something other boosters like BU Timburr and Croagunk have: recovery from attacking. I'm convinced that having that ability is necessary for a slow booster to work, and alas, Spritzee doesn't have it outside of the horrible Draining Kiss. Spritzee is very good when supported properly, but when I compare it to the Pokemon that are currently in A+, and then those in mid A, it fits a lot better with the latter.
 
Ponyta for S tier (if not more)
Disclaimer : unlike Aipom or Clamperl nominations for S, this one is serious.

So. Ponyta has Flame Body, and a healing move. It also has wow, and the godly 19 speed.

Now let's take a look at the viability ranking's A and S tiers.

For my calcs I will be using this set :

Shiny: Yes <- certified cuteness viability ranking top tier
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe (22/15/14/11/15/19)
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Toxic
- Flare Blitz


S-Rank
Ponyta is an excellent switch to mienfoo. In 1v1, Mienfoo cannot harm it as it will get outsped and burned. full atk foo does 27% to ponyta with stone edge when burned. In short, it can't do shit. Burn and spam heal.

A-Rank Physical attacks ? Here I come. Pawniard does 22% to Ponyta when burned. In other cases, it can't do shit.
High

Abra, in addition to possibly losing the speed tie, does not 2HKO ponyta with psychic. It does if flare blitz recoil, or rocks, tho.
Some people say Archen checks Ponyta. .. well they're wrong. 180 Atk burned Archen Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO. Burn and spam heal ? It might crit tho. But that's only for full offensive archen, which is barely played since Archen's job is 90% of time to check fletchling. Obviously, Ponyta shits on defensive archen. And in the case of Wild Charge... 76 Atk Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. That says long enough ?
Oh damn the only ponyta check ! I do mean check, not counter. Restalk + Heal bell is the only Chinchou set that will fully wall pony. 0 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 36 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- doesn't even hit that hard. If another set is played, chinchou will fall to residual damages caused by on switch statues, rocks, and stuff. Also, I heard of something called Diglett. And finally, you'd better not switch your chinchou into a sunnybeam pony or you'll be in a terrible situation. Tho, I must agree ponyta has one check in the world, yipee !
tired of using Archen to check Fletch ? Just slap ponyta somewhere and switch it relentlessly into fletch (if you removed the rocks earlier obviously). Acrobatics does not 2HKO, and it doesn't OHKO after sd. Obv Flare blitz / Wild charge are instant kills, and Wow ruins it. But unless it SD, you can heal up any acrobatics.
hello i'm magnemite i have sturdyjuice recycle. hello i'm ponyta i have wow. Next.
... the main reason toxic pony exists. When all else solutions to check a mon fail, using this very mon to check it sometimes is the best solution. Did somebody say gligar ?
"If you want to check burns, use Timburr !" Nope. Drain punch + Mach punch under burn does not kill pony, and that's in the case timburr wasn't anticipated. <-
0 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ; said timburr will not appreciate. And in any case, why would one fear timburr when his DP does at most 40% and you have Morning Sun ?

Mid

erm
Drilbur loses in 1v1 to pony. Eq does not OHKO, neither does it 2HKO when burned. Ponyta wows and spam heals. It can also choose to do around 75% damages with a flare blitz if said Drilbur gets bored and puts rocks instead of Eq spamming. Also, Drilbur better not get the bright idea to try to rapid spin in a game with ponyta.
lol
lol
lol
toxic + heals
Ponyta ends up winning the 1v1, even against max hp max def+. 0 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Spritzee cannot handle Burn/Flare Blitz/Burn spamming. Wish will only recover 14 hp, not 9-12 + 2*3 = 16-19 hp. Recoil might be an issue, but well, heals ... In any case, spritzee sure can't do shit to ponyta.
oh damn a water/rock against a fire type ! ... ... ... burn it and watch it burn.
Thank you for boosting my healing move ! Very kind of you !
Low

ponyta clearly isn't supposed to stop carv. carv shall not dare switching into ponyta. 0 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 11-13 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, wild charge ohkos, and burn .. burns.
lol
diglett does not OHKO ponyta without LO. 236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. He indeed rks ponyta, to the cost of its life if took a single damage.
lol
lol
wild charge would help. Otherwise, toxic or burns ruins it if you've got sucker punch pawn as a backup, since omanyte will not be able to try to outplay sucker punch. he'll just die if he waits.
lol
lol
quite a good check, unless it has wild charge
lol


So let's sum it up. Against the nearly the entire tier except Chinchou/Carvanha(uh)/Staryu(uh)/Diglett(he's a rk, not a check. and better ohko this one), Ponyta wins the 1v1, usually simply by spamming burn + Morning Sun. (or doing dumbass damages) Against physical attacker who represents clearly more than half the offensive pokemon, ponyta can come in, take a nop, watch them burn, heal itself and walk away.

So I'll make a little list of my comments on ponyta :

This Pokemon is by itself insanely powerful :
By its raw power

Does "410" BST says it straight ? Ponyta has access to the godly 19 speed. It will win 90% of 1v1 due to having an insane ability, having DUMBLY HIGH stats. (22 hp, 21 def, 21 def, this while having 85 bs atk and 90 bs spe ? Sure ! )

And by its versatility
Given his stats being bs everywhere, ponyta can either run a fast staller set, a wall set, an all-out attacker set wrecking shit with an insanely powerful STAB (180, zz.), plus the LO and its access to 19 hp, plus 19 speed. It can also run the sunnybeam set, this way wrecking its only checks. Or a sunnystall set .. whatever .. Given how good vulpix is right now, It only makes Ponyta's flames brighter to work so well under sun.

Ponyta is godly into the post Misdreavus meta
Now that missy is gone, it's far easier to rapid spin rocks. The only serious spinblocker right now is Pump, which gets obviously raped by Pony. So yeah, Drilbur/Pony is a core to be feared.
Also, Missy gone makes one less pokemon Ponyta could speed tie with. Then there is the Fletch/Dig thing. Chinchou is the main check to Pony ? Chinchou gets trapped by Diglett. Fletchling is so scary with proper support that Chinchou usually musn't show itself unless the beast is released. With Ponyta around, it will sure have to show itself. Every time Pony forces the switch on Chinchou, if Diglett is here, it puts the opponent in a really scary situation. In short, you'd have to use Archen AND Chinchou to counter Pony/Fletch/Dig. This group of 3 pokemons really breaks trough the meta so hard that each appearence of one of them means the enemy has got serious problems.

How can using Ponyta ever be wrong ?
Opponent seted up with sd, dd, belly drum ?!? He might get burned when killing Pony. Opponent is sweeping you with Abra ? Ponytaaaa. Opponent is stalling ? Toxic is viable on pony. Toxic+Heal stallbreaks anything. (besides tentacool but he's useless, he doesn't 2HKO w/ scald, and get burned to eventual death. ) Rapid Spin ? Ponyta ! Knock Off ? Ponyta ! Someone pissing you of with Fake out ? PONYTA ! PONYTA DOES IT ALL !!

Shiny Ponyta is basically too cute for this tier.

Who can even stand up to this ?

(also, ponyta ruins aipom...)

In short, i'm nominating Ponyta for S tier (if not higher. Imo Ponyta is stronger than foo and pawn.)

Unless you are playing Chinchou, Ponyta nearly sweeps your entire team. And we can't admit as a basis that if you don't have chinchou in your team, it's your fault. That would mean 100% of teams should have Chinchou, which doesn't match the idea of Pokemon. Even though ... | 2 | Chinchou | 38.59675% | 18577 | 16.822% | 15302 | 17.210% | ... we're not that far from full chinchou spam ... Anyway, Chinchou isn't even enough to handle ponyta. It will eventually fall to repeated minor damages, or simply to an OHKO from LO Dig.

Also, some people will say "use a status healing move". I agree. Healing the pokemon that burnt while knocking off ponyta is one of the best way to handle it. But that means you have either Chinchou, either Spritzee. And that you're not using Scarf Chou. Plus you've got to find a turn to heal bell. Do you plan on heal belling with Spritzee when the opponent has sub pawniard, or heal belling with Chinchou when the opponent has Diglett ? You've got at most 50% chance to succeed.

Some replays :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-200310481 <- typical fight where the first one who loses ponyta can surrender
also, another fight happened the next day vs macle, where i could only forfeit at 5-6 the turn ponyta died, but idk why wasn't the replay saved, when i meant to use it in this post. People might see the game I am talking about.
 

Aaron's Aron

A concussion update in my info tab
Ponyta for S tier (if not more)
Disclaimer : unlike Aipom or Clamperl nominations for S, this one is serious.

So. Ponyta has Flame Body, and a healing move. It also has wow, and the godly 19 speed.

Now let's take a look at the viability ranking's A and S tiers.

For my calcs I will be using this set :

Shiny: Yes <- certified cuteness viability ranking top tier
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe (22/15/14/11/15/19)
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Toxic
- Flare Blitz


S-Rank
Ponyta is an excellent switch to mienfoo. In 1v1, Mienfoo cannot harm it as it will get outsped and burned. full atk foo does 27% to ponyta with stone edge when burned. In short, it can't do shit. Burn and spam heal.

A-Rank Physical attacks ? Here I come. Pawniard does 22% to Ponyta when burned. In other cases, it can't do shit.
High

Abra, in addition to possibly losing the speed tie, does not 2HKO ponyta with psychic. It does if flare blitz recoil, or rocks, tho.
Some people say Archen checks Ponyta. .. well they're wrong. 180 Atk burned Archen Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO. Burn and spam heal ? It might crit tho. But that's only for full offensive archen, which is barely played since Archen's job is 90% of time to check fletchling. Obviously, Ponyta shits on defensive archen. And in the case of Wild Charge... 76 Atk Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. That says long enough ?
Oh damn the only ponyta check ! I do mean check, not counter. Restalk + Heal bell is the only Chinchou set that will fully wall pony. 0 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 36 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- doesn't even hit that hard. If another set is played, chinchou will fall to residual damages caused by on switch statues, rocks, and stuff. Also, I heard of something called Diglett. And finally, you'd better not switch your chinchou into a sunnybeam pony or you'll be in a terrible situation. Tho, I must agree ponyta has one check in the world, yipee !
tired of using Archen to check Fletch ? Just slap ponyta somewhere and switch it relentlessly into fletch (if you removed the rocks earlier obviously). Acrobatics does not 2HKO, and it doesn't OHKO after sd. Obv Flare blitz / Wild charge are instant kills, and Wow ruins it. But unless it SD, you can heal up any acrobatics.
hello i'm magnemite i have sturdyjuice recycle. hello i'm ponyta i have wow. Next.
... the main reason toxic pony exists. When all else solutions to check a mon fail, using this very mon to check it sometimes is the best solution. Did somebody say gligar ?
"If you want to check burns, use Timburr !" Nope. Drain punch + Mach punch under burn does not kill pony, and that's in the case timburr wasn't anticipated. <-
0 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ; said timburr will not appreciate. And in any case, why would one fear timburr when his DP does at most 40% and you have Morning Sun ?

Mid

erm
Drilbur loses in 1v1 to pony. Eq does not OHKO, neither does it 2HKO when burned. Ponyta wows and spam heals. It can also choose to do around 75% damages with a flare blitz if said Drilbur gets bored and puts rocks instead of Eq spamming. Also, Drilbur better not get the bright idea to try to rapid spin in a game with ponyta.
lol
lol
lol
toxic + heals
Ponyta ends up winning the 1v1, even against max hp max def+. 0 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Spritzee cannot handle Burn/Flare Blitz/Burn spamming. Wish will only recover 14 hp, not 9-12 + 2*3 = 16-19 hp. Recoil might be an issue, but well, heals ... In any case, spritzee sure can't do shit to ponyta.
oh damn a water/rock against a fire type ! ... ... ... burn it and watch it burn.
Thank you for boosting my healing move ! Very kind of you !
Low

ponyta clearly isn't supposed to stop carv. carv shall not dare switching into ponyta. 0 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 11-13 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, wild charge ohkos, and burn .. burns.
lol
diglett does not OHKO ponyta without LO. 236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. He indeed rks ponyta, to the cost of its life if took a single damage.
lol
lol
wild charge would help. Otherwise, toxic or burns ruins it if you've got sucker punch pawn as a backup, since omanyte will not be able to try to outplay sucker punch. he'll just die if he waits.
lol
lol
quite a good check, unless it has wild charge
lol


So let's sum it up. Against the nearly the entire tier except Chinchou/Carvanha(uh)/Staryu(uh)/Diglett(he's a rk, not a check. and better ohko this one), Ponyta wins the 1v1, usually simply by spamming burn + Morning Sun. (or doing dumbass damages) Against physical attacker who represents clearly more than half the offensive pokemon, ponyta can come in, take a nop, watch them burn, heal itself and walk away.

So I'll make a little list of my comments on ponyta :

This Pokemon is by itself insanely powerful :
By its raw power

Does "410" BST says it straight ? Ponyta has access to the godly 19 speed. It will win 90% of 1v1 due to having an insane ability, having DUMBLY HIGH stats. (22 hp, 21 def, 21 def, this while having 85 bs atk and 90 bs spe ? Sure ! )

And by its versatility
Given his stats being bs everywhere, ponyta can either run a fast staller set, a wall set, an all-out attacker set wrecking shit with an insanely powerful STAB (180, zz.), plus the LO and its access to 19 hp, plus 19 speed. It can also run the sunnybeam set, this way wrecking its only checks. Or a sunnystall set .. whatever .. Given how good vulpix is right now, It only makes Ponyta's flames brighter to work so well under sun.

Ponyta is godly into the post Misdreavus meta
Now that missy is gone, it's far easier to rapid spin rocks. The only serious spinblocker right now is Pump, which gets obviously raped by Pony. So yeah, Drilbur/Pony is a core to be feared.
Also, Missy gone makes one less pokemon Ponyta could speed tie with. Then there is the Fletch/Dig thing. Chinchou is the main check to Pony ? Chinchou gets trapped by Diglett. Fletchling is so scary with proper support that Chinchou usually musn't show itself unless the beast is released. With Ponyta around, it will sure have to show itself. Every time Pony forces the switch on Chinchou, if Diglett is here, it puts the opponent in a really scary situation. In short, you'd have to use Archen AND Chinchou to counter Pony/Fletch/Dig. This group of 3 pokemons really breaks trough the meta so hard that each appearence of one of them means the enemy has got serious problems.

How can using Ponyta ever be wrong ?
Opponent seted up with sd, dd, belly drum ?!? He might get burned when killing Pony. Opponent is sweeping you with Abra ? Ponytaaaa. Opponent is stalling ? Toxic is viable on pony. Toxic+Heal stallbreaks anything. (besides tentacool but he's useless, he doesn't 2HKO w/ scald, and get burned to eventual death. ) Rapid Spin ? Ponyta ! Knock Off ? Ponyta ! Someone pissing you of with Fake out ? PONYTA ! PONYTA DOES IT ALL !!

Shiny Ponyta is basically too cute for this tier.

Who can even stand up to this ?

(also, ponyta ruins aipom...)

In short, i'm nominating Ponyta for S tier (if not higher. Imo Ponyta is stronger than foo and pawn.)

Unless you are playing Chinchou, Ponyta nearly sweeps your entire team. And we can't admit as a basis that if you don't have chinchou in your team, it's your fault. That would mean 100% of teams should have Chinchou, which doesn't match the idea of Pokemon. Even though ... | 2 | Chinchou | 38.59675% | 18577 | 16.822% | 15302 | 17.210% | ... we're not that far from full chinchou spam ... Anyway, Chinchou isn't even enough to handle ponyta. It will eventually fall to repeated minor damages, or simply to an OHKO from LO Dig.

Also, some people will say "use a status healing move". I agree. Healing the pokemon that burnt while knocking off ponyta is one of the best way to handle it. But that means you have either Chinchou, either Spritzee. And that you're not using Scarf Chou. Plus you've got to find a turn to heal bell. Do you plan on heal belling with Spritzee when the opponent has sub pawniard, or heal belling with Chinchou when the opponent has Diglett ? You've got at most 50% chance to succeed.

Some replays :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-200310481 <- typical fight where the first one who loses ponyta can surrender
also, another fight happened the next day vs macle, where i could only forfeit at 5-6 the turn ponyta died, but idk why wasn't the replay saved, when i meant to use it in this post. People might see the game I am talking about.
Ponyta is good. I love it. It is fantastic. I love that it has a 19 Speed recovery move, so it can heal before the opponent can finish it off. In longer battles Ponyta is let down by only having 8PP in Morning Sun though. Also, you made comments just based on one set a Pokemon could run. Some of those Pokemon could break through Ponyta, like Scarf Magnemite, after a while. It is great, yes - A+ in fact. But S... not quite.
 
I did not only commented a single set, especially not in the versatility part. I just used a single set for calculations.
Replacing Toxic with Wild Charge is a very good option that has been mentionned many times in the "How does Ponyta fare against A/S ranks" part.

In longer battles Ponyta is let down by only having 8PP in Morning Sun though
^ gotta agree on this one. Answering "A physical pokemon ? Burn it and wait." is a bit fictionnal since Ponyta would lose its PP doing this. Finishing off the opponent with Flare blitz as soon as he gets in killing range is a good way of preserving pps, even if it costs hps, if it's Flare Blitz Pony. Fire blast is also an option, often unconsidered on the faster staller set.
 

Aaron's Aron

A concussion update in my info tab
If Morning Sun had 20 PP like Recover and it wasn't Stealth Rock weak, I would say yes, put it in S Rank. I just feel like it can't quite survive long enough and KO the opponent because it will already be weakened and there will be recoil from Flare Blitz. I do like having Sunny Day over Wild Charge and Toxic though, causing more HP recovery, Flare Blitz to hit harder, and a neutrality to Water. I feel like it gives it more longevity.
 
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