Resource LC Viability Rankings

[boo836]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-213510596

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-213716326

bunny putting in some work. def deserves b-

 

[kingmidas]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-213510596

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-213716326

bunny putting in some work. def deserves b-

Replays shouldn't be your whole argument

 

[tazz]

Saying that buneary is on the same level as pokemon like elekid, aipom and slowpoke is a bit of a stretch. C+ seems much more reasonable.

Have some nominations for C, I'll elaborate if needed.

Teddiursa and buneary. ---> C +
Tyrunt ----> B
Bulbasaur -----> C-
Anorith ------> C
Growlithe -------> C-

 

[North Gate]

I support Tyrunt being risen, as I've seen some stuff in action. SturdJuice is useful, or you could run a Rock Polish set as stated above. I'll edit later, I'm at school and can't stay on for long.

 

[boo836]

Replays shouldn't be your whole argument

It wasn't.

Buneary absolutely deserves a place due to its unique and widely useful niche. Quite a few people can attest to Buneary's usefulness, a its bulk and speed allow it to use healing wish almost all the time. With Healing Wish, you're putting stuff like ko range BU Timburr, Archen, and Fletch back on the field with no issue at all. It places a lot of pressure on your opponent if you heal the mon they struggle with, be it a wall, sweeper, ect.

Edit: Cosmic Power BP is shit

 

[sam-testings]

I have seen some pretty annoying boundary sets that just charm, thunder wave, and then set up on you with cosmic power. They then baton pass it to something that hits hard and doesn't have good bulk and proceed to sweep a lot of my team. This method is pretty hazy, but effective in my opinion.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

I said nothing on BP, and Buneary's main niche is something that Aipom cannot do. By using Healing Wish, Buneary allows anything from dangerous set up mons (Pawniard, Timburr come to mind), to pivots (Chou, Foongus, Pancham) to be useful once again. You can even bring back any walls that your opponent may find troublesome.

I'm not saying that it's a godlike supporter, or even that it's good at what it does. However, Buneary is easily capable of bolstering the right team.

Fine, but I don't think that only Healing Wish (and some things like Encore) deserves an upgrade in B-. That's it. Aipom has U-Turn, Multi Hits, Taunt, better bulk, more power, physical movepool who is a little bit better, Knock Off.

No really, Buneary isn't at the same level that Aipom imo. I agree that C- is too low for him, but B- is too much. C/C+ is fine imo.
Healing Wish is very situationnal, and imo, it's not even that that good than a Memento. It's useful to give a second life, but really, it's not enough.

 

[boo836]

Fine, but I don't think that only Healing Wish (and some things like Encore) deserves an upgrade in B-. That's it. Aipom has U-Turn, Multi Hits, Taunt, better bulk, more power, physical movepool who is a little bit better, Knock Off.

No really, Buneary isn't at the same level that Aipom imo. I agree that C- is too low for him, but B- is too much. C/C+ is fine imo.
Healing Wish is very situationnal, and imo, it's not even that that good than a Memento. It's useful to give a second life, but really, it's not enough.

Stop trying to compare Aipom with Buneary. This isn't a matter of the number of things a mon can do, it's a matter of how useful it is. Healing Wish is an incredibly useful move, especially in balance and offensive teams. Frankly, the fact that it's carried me to 5th with a gxe of two (versus many good players) stands as a testament of how great it is. Healing Wish is not situational. With Buneary's speed it can very well turn matches.

Think of it this way: Late game, do you want to come up against a BU Timburr at full health? How about a full hp Pawniard with no status? Healing Wish can place overwhelming pressure on your opponent, and cover crits and mistakes. Buneary might not be great at much else, but it's ignorant to claim that it's pretty great at what it does.

 

[infamy]

The purpose of using Buneary is completely different from the purpose of using Aipom. They have completely different niches. The fact that it lets you completely heal a team member back to full health, free of status is a big enough niche for it to go to at least B-. Also, Buneary has been used successfully many times- for example Tricking's late XY RMT, and boo's own success with it.

 

[kingmidas]

The purpose of using Buneary is completely different from the purpose of using Aipom, for Christ's sake. They have completely different niches. The fact that it lets you completely heal a team member back to full health, free of status is a big enough niche for it to go to at least B-. Also, Buneary has been used successfully many times- for example Tricking's late XY RMT, and boo's own success with it.

I do not understand how some of you don't get this. People like you make me angry.

He was comparing the utility B- mons have to buneary's which is 3 pretty cool sets. Trick klutz, band, and healing wish. The latter is the best set imo but band/trick klutz are annoying to face. This is not a B- mon though, it suffers from not being able to really come on anything really, knock off can backfire trick klutz, band is ghost bait but can break through pory spritz rather nicely, and also utilize trick to allow for more cleaning ability. Healing wish is great and all because it has everything to pull it off but when I see a buneary I always assume its healing wish so I do not play my checks away hastily. Buneary is C+ imo for these traits as it is like abra in that its presence alone can gain some momentum but it is like being down 6 to 5 at times because of its limited defensive and offensive capabilities.
Edit: wrote on phone so sorry if grammar issues. Lastly its enough to try to prove your point infamy, ridiculing users for having a different viewpoint is not gonna help at all, just makes you look like a dick. PS talk/=/forum talk

 

[infamy]

im not ridiculing them for having a different viewpoint, im saying that when their arguments completely fall apart and they continue to try to defend it, it makes me angry.

 

[boo836]

He's ridiculing you for being dumb. Aipom and Buneary are not remotely comparable, and Aipom isn't a supportmon. If your only argument is that it doesn't do everything, you don't have an argument. The point of Healing Wish is to maintain pressure. If you use it properly, being 6-5 shouldn't matter.

Also 55/45/56 isn't struggling to cone in on everything. Please know what you're talking about.

 

[kingmidas]

He's ridiculing you for being dumb. Aipom and Buneary are not remotely comparable, and Aipom isn't a supportmon. If your only argument is that it doesn't do everything, you don't have an argument. The point of Healing Wish is to maintain pressure. If you use it properly, being 6-5 shouldn't matter.

Also 55/45/56 isn't struggling to cone in on everything. Please know what you're talking about.

He wasn't even directing it at me... Theres no need to attack me for defending a user.
If you noticed I didn't only mention the eviolite healing wish set, not to mention how normal is a shitty typing. I also didn't say it has to doing everything, but when it has a unique albeit flawed niche, theres bound to be issues within discussing utility. I just tend to believe in a meta such as we have here, recklessness is more than punishable, even with the ability of giving a sweeper a second life nothing really is that standout since pawn/timburr and most other offensive mons tend to have answers that are able to stay alive to late game. Sub gastly I guess would be a good example. I do not think you understand the risk vs reward issues with buneary, as stuff like trapping is really relevant in the crippling of healing wish strats, and that is why you prefer to attack than argue. C+ Imo because healing wish is great/ its a little unpredicable. Lastly I kindly ask you refrain from the stubborn ttitude of an 7 year old :)
Edit: also buneary can revive stall cores.

 

[boo836]

He wasn't even directing it at me... Theres no need to attack me for defending a user.
If you noticed I didn't only mention the eviolite healing wish set, not to mention how normal is a shitty typing. I also didn't say it has to doing everything, but when it has a unique albeit flawed niche, theres bound to be issues within discussing utility. I just tend to believe in a meta such as we have here, recklessness is more than punishable, even with the ability of giving a sweeper a second life nothing really is that standout since pawn/timburr and most other offensive mons tend to have answers that are able to stay alive to late game. Sub gastly I guess would be a good example. I do not think you understand the risk vs reward issues with buneary, as stuff like trapping is really relevant in the crippling of healing wish strats, and that is why you prefer to attack than argue. C+ Imo because healing wish is great/ its a little unpredicable. Lastly I kindly ask you refrain from the stubborn ttitude of an 7 year old :)
Edit: also buneary can revive stall cores.

"You" was meant in its plural form. Nonetheless, trapping doesn't necessarily hurt Buneary's viability. All it means is that you may have to rely on double switches or a pursuit user. If you place enough pressure, the Pokemon that counter your recipient should be worn down with little difficulty.

 

[kingmidas]

"You" was meant in its plural form. Nonetheless, trapping doesn't necessarily hurt Buneary's viability. All it means is that you may have to rely on double switches or a pursuit user. If you place enough pressure, the Pokemon that counter your recipient should be worn down with little difficulty.

Its the fact you need to play with that kind of pressure means buneary's usefulness is up to a variable you can only have so much control over. Also the fact you claim it can only fit on certain playstyles adds to my point. Its why I consider it just not B- material. Also please do not make prediction arguments they just add an illogical aspect as it can go both ways. Also diglet is kinda pursuit weak so I guess that part is reasonable but sack trapping still works.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

I testedBuneary yesterday: Yup, I can say that it is very useful. Examples? You can restore the health of a powerful sweeper to pressure the enemy with it, or even get back an otherwise weakened sponge / wall to stall the enemy out. Also, it is not deadweight at all. I personally use Fake Out / Return / Drain Punch / Healing Wish. Yeah, it is real cool, and definitely good for B-, especially since you can bring back a more potent threat from near dead, and reconstruct demolished cores.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

I know that Tricking made a great team with him, but to be honest, I have never understood why does tricking put Buneary instead of Aipom, because Aipom does the job better with his set (Fire Punch instead of Healing Wish).
In the best LC RMT team made with Buneary, Tricking doesn't use Healing Wish.
We are just saying that only Healing Wish deserves a B-. A pokémon who is B- isn't totally outclassed by a mon in the same rank except Healing Wish, that's pretty ridiculous. B- isn't a good idea, that's all.
I played once or twice Buneary for a kind of dark horse, and he is really good. But no, it's not a B-.
And yeah, I can compare Aipom and Buneary, almost the same job, same typings, same sets (except some attacks, and the doubting Klutz Tricker).

Edit :

"and Aipom isn't a supportmon" lol.
Evio Taunt set is legit. Evio Twave is legit. Knock Off is legit.
Chinchou is a support, and Aipom no ? It's a pivot, and a support.
Your argument does not make any sense.

 

[boo836]

Mentioning TRICKING's team is pretty disingenuous considering it was for LC research and he replaced one mon on the original team for it. Healing Wish Buneary would be difficult to use on hazards offense with a suicide lead.

Healing Wish is what defines Buneary's primary role. It's no different from trappers, which are distinguished by one key aspect.

Also, nobody uses Twave Aipom. Get real.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Artemis Fowl used him and peak Top 10 quite easily with. And it's a support.
btw usage =/= viability guy.

For Tricking, I ignored that, thanks for correcting me.
If Healing Wish is the only reason to use him and deserves a B-, I think I will nominate Cherubi for B+ like Bellsprout, because Healing Wish.
And now, if a random guy arrives and says "Hello, I want Mime Jr to C, he has Healing Wish" ?
You have more explained how Healing Wish is good that how Buneary is good.
Seriously, the are reasons to play Buneary on Aipom, except Healing Wish :

- Jump Kick, Limber, Klutz Trick, Quick Attack, Encore, Cosmic Power.

Ok. Now reasons to play Aipom instead of Buneary.

- Bulk a little bit better, Multi Hits, More power, Nasty Plot, Hone Claws, Gunk Shot, Seed Bomb, Taunt, Knock Off, U-Turn

Jump Kick is sympathic, yeah. It hits hard Porygon, Munchlax... Good thing.
Limber is a little bit situationnal, but can be useful sometimes.
Trick Klutz is really meh imo.
Quick Attack is a good priority with a STAB, and can be useful.
Encore is imo difficult to put on a set, but can be useful.
Cosmic Power is meh.

The bulk a little bit better isn't really important imo, but it's always useful.
Multi Hits is just the main reason to play with Aipom, and a HUGE niche.
This thing is really more powerful, due to the multi hits who are pretty nice in LC, that's a really good point.
NastyPass is meh.
Hone Claws Sweep/Pass is quite meh.
Gunk Shot is a cool thing for lure fairies.
Seed Bomb is also cool for shell smashers.
Taunt is really good in support, and blocks a lot of things. Really really useful.
Knock Off and U-Turn, I guess that it is useless to talk about.

Aipom is really too much better, and Healing Wish + some niches can't offset Knock Off + U-Turn + Multi Hits + Taunt + Power.
I don't even understood your arguments, really, for me it's pretty obvious that Aipom > Buneary.
Healing Wish is like a god for u, be realistic.

 

[Aerow]

I'm struggling to see how "Aipom and Buneary does almost the same job". Aipom is a wallbreaker (and a decent anti-lead I guess). Buneary isn't a wallbreaker, Buneary is a solid support Pokemon thanks to fast Healing Wish and Encore. There doesn't exist a supportive Aipom set, because Aipom have way better things to do (wallbreaking).

Instead of comparing Buneary to Aipom and other stuff you can't really compare it to, can we rather discuss if its niche in being the best Healing Wish user in the metagame (while also having access Encore, Heal Bell, etc), is enough to warrant it a B- ranking?

I personally believe it belongs in B-, because Healing Wish is nothing else than amazing, and Buneary is clearly the best user of the move in LC.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

I'm struggling to see how "Aipom and Buneary does almost the same job". Aipom is a wallbreaker (and a decent anti-lead I guess). Buneary isn't a wallbreaker, Buneary is a solid support Pokemon thanks to fast Healing Wish and Encore. There doesn't exist a supportive Aipom set, because Aipom have way better things to do (wallbreaking).

Instead of comparing Buneary to Aipom and other stuff you can't really compare it to, can we rather discuss if its niche in being the best Healing Wish user in the metagame (while also having access Encore, Heal Bell, etc), is enough to warrant it a B- ranking?

I personally believe it belongs in B-, because Healing Wish is nothing else than amazing, and Buneary is clearly the best user of the move in LC.

I beg to differ. I saw Aipom support sometimes, and really, it's a good thing. It is not played yes, but it's viable. Buneary can be played as a anti-lead, and he is outclassed by Aipom, we are fine I guess ? Now for a support set, Aipom can run support too. He has Twave, Taunt, U-Turn, Good Bulk, what is the problem ?
I think that Healing Wish + Encore is good, but Knock Off + U-Turn + Taunt can offset.

And for me, I think that Healing Wish isn't enough, you have my opinion.

 

[North Gate]

I beg to differ. I saw Aipom support sometimes, and really, it's a good thing. It is not played yes, but it's viable. Buneary can be played as a anti-lead, and he is outclassed by Aipom, we are fine I guess ? Now for a support set, Aipom can run support too. He has Twave, Taunt, U-Turn, Good Bulk, what is the problem ?
I think that Healing Wish + Encore is good, but Knock Off + U-Turn + Taunt can offset.

And for me, I think that Healing Wish isn't enough, you have my opinion.

I agree for these facts, having ONE niche that puts you into a certain rank. (B- for this.) Is incredibly stupid since most things that aren't just super excellent at their one role usually have multiple niches to go along with that ranking. Yeah Aipom can run a support set, multi hit set, wallbreaker, or even NastyPass which is meh imo as well. Buneary gets Healing Wish, Encore, Cosmic Power, yeah it has great support, but it requires team support, and a reason to use Healing Wish on it. CosmicPass is shit since most defense raising moves are completely useless and things can easily set up on you since most CosmicPassers have little to no offensive presence Buneary has great bulk, but the typing against a really common offensive typing in this metagame is meh, since things like Pancham, Timburr, Mienfoo, and others dominate this metagame at A rank and above, Mienfoo being S rank due to its sheer force and pivoting skills, and it can alternatively run a Scarf, OR even a bulky set. Which is why it's S, it plays these roles effectively. Buneary has a bad weakness to this common offensive type, and Fighting coverage isn't rare. Abra runs HP Fighting as an example. Yeah you could argue about Ferroseed being weak to it and still being A+ but it has the bulk. 22/18/18 is EVd right, to take this attacks very well. Buneary though, has good bulk, but a weakness to common offensive typing and literally no way to hit these guys besides Tricking/Switchrooing an item to hopefully render them useless or weaker. Overall, Buneary deserves a rank up, despite me not playing it I've seen how it can be a great supporter, but it's still niche.
Buneary --> C OR C+.

Edit 1: Buneary does sit at a god speed tier also tbh, but to run speed you sacrifice bulk.
Playing with some calcs.
196 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Buneary: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is one of your checks, but here's the thing. If you want to make is almost useless, you'd have to Switcheroo a Choice Scarf or specs if reel onto it, which those would cripple Timburr completely and make sure it's not able to do anything all match. But you sacrifice two things. 1: Bulk with Eviolite. 2: The ability to Switcheroo a defensive mon.
236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 244+ Def Buneary: 42-55 (168 - 220%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Meet the almighty fast Fighting type you see, and here's the thing.
Mienfoo amply runs a Choice Scarf set, it does a LOT and it's very effective, making Switcheroo suppor tuseless on the switch.
You outspeed, but you can't OHKO Mienfoo.
| 1 | Mienfoo | 47.76973% | 18662 | 22.932% | 15867 | 24.678% |
*Whistles* Look at that usage.
Yeah I know I'm being super negative about Buneary, but these are some flaws you cannot fix just by EVing it up right or playing smart.
Edit 2: Yeah I know Aipom is weak to this guys, but Aipom actually checks Life Orb Mienfoo, which is the most used item iirc. It doesn't want to switch in, but it outspeeds, and if you two meet as leads, you're an Anti-Lead with Fake Out usually there, and you outspeed.
196 Atk Aipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196 Atk Aipom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Note: I changed the typing to normal and made it 18 BP like Fury Swipes.
196 Atk Aipom Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
See? It checks it, but Timburr checks both of them because priority.

 

[Punchshroom]

I beg to differ. I saw Aipom support sometimes, and really, it's a good thing. It is not played yes, but it's viable. Buneary can be played as a anti-lead, and he is outclassed by Aipom, we are fine I guess ? Now for a support set, Aipom can run support too. He has Twave, Taunt, U-Turn, Good Bulk, what is the problem ?

I don't see how Aipom "outclasses" Buneary at all; that's like saying Croagunk outdoes Fletchling at priority abuse and shit. Their disruptive moves are wildly different: Aipom has Knock Off, U-turn, and Taunt, while Buneary has Healing Wish, Encore, Heal Bell, Switcheroo (+ Klutz). I don't get how you managed to even compare the two. Also I wouldn't say these moves don't exactly qualify as 'support moves' on Aipom, more as stallbreaking moves. In this context, a true support Pokemon like Vullaby would use these moves to halt / slow down an opponent's offensive advances, while Aipom uses these moves to circumvent an opponent's defensive measures.

I think that Healing Wish + Encore is good, but Knock Off + U-Turn + Taunt can offset.

While the combination of those moves can be pretty potent, Aipom is far from the best user of all 3 of these moves if that is solely what you're looking for. Mienfoo has Drain Punch + Regen for far better staying power, while Archen has handy resistances to take advantage of. And then there are even other users such as Vullaby and Zorua that can also make use of these moves so Aipom is certainly not alone in that 'niche'. Compare that to Buneary which has pretty much zero competition for what it has to offer.

And for me, I think that Healing Wish isn't enough, you have my opinion.

Healing Wish alone is indeed not enough of a niche, otherwise we'd see people recommend Petilil over Oddish more often than 'once in a blue moon', if not never. However, the sheer number of support / disruptive options at Buneary's disposal, which are either rare or have not enough fast users of said moves, is what would grant Buneary a higher place on the rankings.

 

[North Gate]

I don't see how Aipom "outclasses" Buneary at all; that's like saying Croagunk outdoes Fletchling at priority abuse and shit. Their disruptive moves are wildly different: Aipom has Knock Off, U-turn, and Taunt, while Buneary has Healing Wish, Encore, Heal Bell, Switcheroo (+ Klutz). I don't get how you managed to even compare the two. Also I wouldn't say these moves don't exactly qualify as 'support moves' on Aipom, more as stallbreaking moves. In this context, a true support Pokemon like Vullaby would use these moves to halt / slow down an opponent's offensive advances, while Aipom uses these moves to circumvent an opponent's defensive measures.


While the combination of those moves can be pretty potent, Aipom is far from the best user of all 3 of these moves if that is solely what you're looking for. Mienfoo has Drain Punch + Regen for far better staying power, while Archen has handy resistances to take advantage of. And then there are even other users such as Vullaby and Zorua that can also make use of these moves so Aipom is certainly not alone in that 'niche'. Compare that to Buneary which has pretty much zero competition for what it has to offer.


Healing Wish alone is indeed not enough of a niche, otherwise we'd see people recommend Petilil over Oddish more often than 'once in a blue moon', if not never. However, the sheer number of support / disruptive options at Buneary's disposal, which are either rare or have not enough fast users of said moves, is what would grant Buneary a higher place on the rankings.

Your point is completely valid, but as I stated in my last post, most users of B rank are good at more than one niche or do one well. Yeah Buneary is probably the fastest user of Healing Wish unless you use some trash poke that nobody cares about and the sheer number of support moves Buneary gets is nice, but since it has so many. Whistle the trumpets please.
4MSS. That's right. Look you don't want to be Taunt bait, so you run an offensive move.That's already a support moveslot gone. Then you most likely run Healing Wish since it's one of the few reasons to use Buneary. Another moveslot gone.
Buneary @ Eviolite/Choice Item
Ability: Klutz/Limber
- Return/Drain Punch/Jump Kick
- Healing Wish
- Filler (Encore, TWave,Switcheroo go here)
- Filler (Same as above, or another attacking option)
And here's the other thing, if you run CosmicPass which is shit, boom. Your other slots are gone. Unless you forgo Healing Wish which is, and probably should be Buneary's main niche.

 

[kingmidas]

There is literally nothing buneary and aipom have in common bar 19 speed and normal typing. Idk where this weird definition of support came from, but aipom is a wallbreaker/bulky pivot, some moves can be shifted but those are the main roles. I will right up another buneary response when I can get on a comp.