Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Pancham]

Snivy can stay where it is. Even with Contrary Leaf Storm, it's really easy to wall since all the good Hidden Powers mean it can't run 17 Speed. Glare is great though.

Honestly, the things that actually beat Snivy outspeed it anyway. If you believe Snivy actually needs 17 Spe, then I'm afraid tot ell you, but, you are sadly mistaken. I mean, of course it would love to have 17 Spe while using HP Rock, to speed tie with Archen switch-ins if you used Sub > Glare, but I mean, you don't actually need it. With Glare and Substitute, Snivy has the ability to play incredible mind games against the opponent. Also, just putting this out there, but you can run 17 Spe Snivy with a decent Hidden Power type in Ground, the only thing about Ground I dislike is that you miss Flying-types, like Fletchling, and that's never fun, in my opinion. Snivy definitely should be moving up, and if not to B+, then definitely mid B. Snivy is an amazing pokemon that provides insane offensive support, while still being a very great mon that can do damage to teams, even if Ferroseed is being used. (Side note, but my Snivy actually swept a team vs. a Ferroseed that laid down SR and all Spikes while I got up to +6, and then Abra came in to revenge, but Glare Hax was real) Snivy is fantastic.

But yah, I definitely agree with Chen and Carv staying where they are. Carv is good, but I think A- better suits Carv. In some cases Carv's psoitives outweigh its negatives, but inother cases the opposite is true. Chen is fantastic in being a soft check to several pokemon in the meta, including fighters, birds, Stunky, normals, grasses, and others that I am too lazy to list. But yah, Snivy up let's go.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

Btw if you want a decent 17 spe hp for snivy you can run Ice to bop foongus and vullaby, since Leaf Storm 2hkoes pawn too.
Rhyhorn is pretty cool, but the weakness to fighting, steel, water and ground and the pitiful spD weights it down ( and it hasn't even solid rock, what a shame ).
Carvanha is frail, but the coverage, the typing and the ability outweight the only flaw most of the time.

 

[Anthiese]

Btw if you want a decent 17 spe hp for snivy you can run Ice to bop foongus and vullaby, since Leaf Storm 2hkoes pawn too.
Rhyhorn is pretty cool, but the weakness to fighting, steel, water and ground and the pitiful spD weights it down ( and it hasn't even solid rock, what a shame ).
Carvanha is frail, but the coverage, the typing and the ability outweight the only flaw most of the time.

17 speed is not needed. 15-16 is enough. You want Modest for more damage plus HP Fire hits most if not all of your switchins bar Fire types. It also hits Birds neutrally. IF you're having an issue with Fire and Bird, HP Rock could be useful (another speed dropping HP) But i dont see HP Ice being useful for anything other than muh 17 speed. Snivy's threats mostly outspeed it. Besides, Sub + Glare is good against most of it's switchins (bar electrics and limber mons who all get slapped by 2 LS or LS + HP)

Honestly, the things that actually beat Snivy outspeed it anyway. If you believe Snivy actually needs 17 Spe, then I'm afraid tot ell you, but, you are sadly mistaken. I mean, of course it would love to have 17 Spe while using HP Rock, to speed tie with Archen switch-ins if you used Sub > Glare, but I mean, you don't actually need it. With Glare and Substitute, Snivy has the ability to play incredible mind games against the opponent. Also, just putting this out there, but you can run 17 Spe Snivy with a decent Hidden Power type in Ground, the only thing about Ground I dislike is that you miss Flying-types, like Fletchling, and that's never fun, in my opinion. Snivy definitely should be moving up, and if not to B+, then definitely mid B. Snivy is an amazing pokemon that provides insane offensive support, while still being a very great mon that can do damage to teams, even if Ferroseed is being used. (Side note, but my Snivy actually swept a team vs. a Ferroseed that laid down SR and all Spikes while I got up to +6, and then Abra came in to revenge, but Glare Hax was real) Snivy is fantastic.

But yah, I definitely agree with Chen and Carv staying where they are. Carv is good, but I think A- better suits Carv. In some cases Carv's psoitives outweigh its negatives, but inother cases the opposite is true. Chen is fantastic in being a soft check to several pokemon in the meta, including fighters, birds, Stunky, normals, grasses, and others that I am too lazy to list. But yah, Snivy up let's go.

I can agree on HP Ground being a suitable replacement. Another replacement that seems to work is HP Rock. Now this one lowers Speed too BUT it allows you to bop Fires and Birds which are common switch ins to Snivy's tirade of boosting hell. Once again, Sub + Glare allows for safe plays and allows you to score a status and/or a +2 without sacrificing much in return (boo hoo 22% HP for momentum)

 

[Corporal Levi]

Snivy: B- -> B+
Tirtouga: A -> A-
Trubbish: B- -> C+
Feel free to discuss and/or object to these changes.

I'm not willing to move Carvanha just yet, because although it's certainly powerful, it's not THAT powerful; it's usually unable to OHKO Eviolite Pokemon it cannot hit super-effectively with its STAB attacks, which is of course problematic because if it can't OHKO, it's as good as dead. Furthermore, Carvanha is easily outlasted by the majority of its checks, and if it chooses to run a niche coverage move just to 2HKO these on the switch (it still isn't able to OHKO Foongus with Blizzard or Zen Headbutt, for example), it loses out on an important utility move. I think that A- is a good spot for Carvanha, seeing as it's a very potent offensive threat, but not quite on the level of, say, Croagunk or Drilbur, at least in the average match.
In regards to Abra, the Focus Sash set is a bit one-dimensional and is almost entirely limited to being a safety net for sure, but it's still very effective at what it does. However, I feel that the LO variant is being drastically undersold here. It's really not just a one-time Sashbra buff, because even after it nabs a surprise OHKO on a bulky Mienfoo or something, it still happens to be an extremely powerful wall-breaker, more powerful than Gastly; I could count the number of Pokemon more threatening to defensive teams on one hand, excluding my thumb. Unlike most other ridiculously powerful Pokemon, Abra also sits at an excellent speed tier, meaning pretty much every time it gets in safely against an offensive team, it gets a KO, so it's not exactly a dead weight against those match-ups, either. This is all on top of its ability to bluff the sash set, and when you put being able to run either set which can do different things (and of course the rare and amazing bj mono-attacker) with just about every coverage move you could ask for, Abra also has the versatility to get around pretty much all of its would-be checks.

I would also like to nominate Diglett and Gothita to A, if not higher.
I'm sure this nomination has been made in the past, so there's not much to say here. The risk vs reward of using these Pokemon is stupidly lopsided. Their disadvantages will usually turn these Pokemon into a one-for-one trade, but it's almost always worth weakening their hard check to your Timburr or Fletchling beyond repair, because now that one-for-one is resulting in a sweep. Even if the opposing team lacks something specific be trapped, they're not exactly dead weights, because they can still provide for your team a few guaranteed revenge-kills. Their performances in SPLC are probably a testament to how effective they are.

 

[MarcerCyoon]

Diglett and Gothita should definitely be A or higher.

Both can trap specific pokemon and KO them so they cannot interfere. At the worst, you get to deal massive damage or take down one Pokemon with you.

Diglett can easily revenge kill with its 20 Speed and access to Sucker Punch. It can also be a decent Stealth Rocker or Lead, as it can often times trap other leads like and KO them.

I don't use Gothita that much, but I've seen skilled players use it to its max potential, and it's pretty darn good.

Definitely nominating to A or higher.

 

[Holiday]

Diglett and Gothita should definitely be A or higher.

Both can trap specific pokemon and KO them so they cannot interfere. At the worst, you get to deal massive damage or take down one Pokemon with you.

Diglett can easily revenge kill with its 20 Speed and access to Sucker Punch. It can also be a decent Stealth Rocker or Lead, as it can often times trap other leads like and KO them.

I don't use Gothita that much, but I've seen skilled players use it to its max potential, and it's pretty darn good.

Definitely nominating to A or higher.

Diglett takes hits worse than a newbie on the blunt. It can't even kill stuff without Life Orb (Chinchou and pony stick out) and using it as a lead can be p bad since you'll start like 5-6 and you're not using Diglett to his full potential.

Goth is so easy to play around lmao. It's fine for both at A-

 

[MarcerCyoon]

Diglett takes hits worse than a newbie on the blunt. It can't even kill stuff without Life Orb (Chinchou and pony stick out) and using it as a lead can be p bad since you'll start like 5-6 and you're not using Diglett to his full potential.

Goth is so easy to play around lmao. It's fine for both at A-

While Diglett cannot OHKO both Ponyta and Chinchou, it can come in after both of those take some damage and KO them. Plus, Sash Diglett can easily kill both of these as two hits is enough to take down both. Unless burn hax lol.

Some Calcs:
236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It definitely can't OHKO, but Diglett and Gothita has a great use as coming out after a Poke has taken damage, and then trapping them and KO'ing them.

Although Diglett and Goth definitely have weaknesses, I think their strengths -- trapping and KO'ing, specificially -- is enough to bump them up to A.

edit: one more calc
Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Berks]

Diglett takes hits worse than a newbie on the blunt. It can't even kill stuff without Life Orb (Chinchou and pony stick out) and using it as a lead can be p bad since you'll start like 5-6 and you're not using Diglett to his full potential.

Goth is so easy to play around lmao. It's fine for both at A-

I would say, due to it's higher initial speed and at least potential for versatility (LO/sash, rocks, Memento, Sucker Punch) and its generally better typing, Diglett deserves to be ranked at A. Gothita, however, suffers either for incredible predictability or severe lack of speed; additionally, it often finds it lacks the power to KO it should have. I'm open on this, but I say leave Goth and bump Dig

 

[mad0ka]

Honestly I'd take it the other way around; leave Dig and bump Goth. Diglett can only effectively trap things weak to its STAB, and doesn't want to be really tanking any hits, but Gothita, while weak, still has the power to 2hko most everything with the right coverage move and tank a hit in retaliation so the ability to only 2hko doesn't matter. The bulky things it cannot kill certainly do not want to be tricked a choice scarf either. Goth just has so much more utility and honestly fits better on many teams than Diglett.

 

[inscribe]

nominating budew to c

Budew is actually kind of great lol

Budew can set Spikes on a number of things and work as a pivot that doesn't die until you just sack it, and it isn't like Dwebble because it doesn't have to work as a suicide lead. Budew has a cool move in Sleep Powder, allowing it to put a big threat to sleep and kill it, or you could use the opportunity to spike stack. Budew can switch into a handful of threats (it may not take some hits amazingly, but it can then put them to sleep) such as Chinchou, ScarFoo, Spritzee, Ferroseed (Non iron head ferro can't really hurt you; its a free opportunity to set up 3 spikes) etc. The Budew set I use has Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain, where Sludge Bomb is for dealing damage and hurting fairies, and Giga Drain is for hurting Waters, Grounds, and staying healthy.

I'll elaborate more when I'm not on mobile haha
no I wont haha

 

[Berks]

Honestly I'd take it the other way around; leave Dig and bump Goth. Diglett can only effectively trap things weak to its STAB, and doesn't want to be really tanking any hits, but Gothita, while weak, still has the power to 2hko most everything with the right coverage move and tank a hit in retaliation so the ability to only 2hko doesn't matter. The bulky things it cannot kill certainly do not want to be tricked a choice scarf either. Goth just has so much more utility and honestly fits better on many teams than Diglett.

Diglett definitely can 2HKO most everything with a combo of Earthquake, Rock Slide, and Sucker Punch (provided you use LO) and can provide great utility with Memento or Stealth Rock. Obviously, all five of those can't fit on the same set, but you pick and choose based on your teams needs. Goth may be bulkier (cause what isn't) but it definitely doesn't want to be taking a hit in the same way Dig doesn't

 

[Kavatika]

It's late, so I might not be able to explain this as best I can, but I thoroughly support Diglett and Gothita rising to A. Trapping support is amazing for any sweeper, and I'm really suprised they haven't been raised in the past. Not being able to achieve KOes without prior damage on several targets is a poor argument considering if you are seeking to trap something, something else on your team is going to be weak to it, so you can lure it out and damage it somehow. Even if you can't get the prior damage you need for Gothita or Diglett to OHKO a target, it's going to be weakened beyond repair. Poor bulk is not a great argument either, as losing Gothita or Diglett is well worth KOing the mon that is preventing you from sweeping.

 

[tazz]

Mankey ---> D
Mankey has a small niche in being a faster defiant user, automatically giving it a place in D.

 

[Anthiese]

Mankey ---> D
Mankey has a small niche in being a faster defiant user, automatically giving it a place in D.

piggyback time

Mankey hits 17 speed with 196+ making it the fastest mon with Defiant in LC, Pawn hits a measly 16 and Piplup doesnt run speed normally so there's that. Being a Fighting type without Drain Punch AND Knock Off hurts however. But it has plenty of other useful STAB and coverage options to make up for it.

stab options

-Close Combat
-Cross Chop
-Power-up Punch
-DynamicPunch (if you like to pray to rng but stick to machop pls)
-Low Sweep (if ur into dropping speed on switches)
-Vacuum Wave (the only prio you have rip)

coverage

-Earthquake / Bulldoze
-Acrobatics
-Gunk Shot
-Night Slash (bc rip no KO)
-Seed Bomb
-Rock Slide / Rock Tomb
-Elemental Punches (Fire, Ice, Thunder)
-U-Turn

odd options to consider

-Taunt
-Encore

All in all i could see Mankey rising, it's pitiable bulk is something that stands out to me. Also hitting 17 and typing with a majority of pokes is a bad thing. Item reliance would be another to help it succeed. Usually Scarf is the main option of choice yet Acrobatics is an option to it opposing Fighting types. It would be interesting to toss it onto Webs to protect the hazards and eliminate the need for a speed boosting item, instead go for maybe a Stat boosting berry, like Leichi or Berry Juice instead. You'd be able to maximize your attack as well without having to run much speed.

What do y'all think?

 

[Merritt]

While Mankey certainly has its niche in the form of being the fastest Defiant user, that doesn't mean it's a good defiant user. Of the current abusable things you can activate defiant on (screw Shadow Ball's 10% chance) Mankey is at a horrible disadvantage compared to Pawniard or even Piplup. Since Defog is so very much the property of flying types, (the others are an exception, not a rule) Mankey switching in runs the risk of being destroyed by a flying STAB attack. The other moves that could activate it also come with similar issues. Moonblast's 30% chance to reduce SpA is fine for Pawniard, who's neutral, but Moonblast murders Mankey. Memento off Cottonee (lol @ switching with Diglett) runs a similar risk as Defog since Cottonee can decide to DG instead. While Defiant isn't useless, it provides Mankey with limited utility.

Its lack of Knock Off hurts its usefulness a lot. While it can run Night Slash, it would like to be able to support the team just a bit with Knock Off. Its coverage is good despite that, especially the utility of Earthquake to hit poison types, but no recovery move is painful when you consider Mankey's terrible 40/35/45 bulk.

Mankey falls behind for me when you look at its speed and attack. It only hits 18 with Adamant, 17 if Jolly, which while not bad isn't enough to OHKO on neutral hits a lot of the time. Its speed also means it has a lot of ties to work through if it doesn't run scarf, and when scarfing Mankey it runs into its issue of power, only magnified as it can't make full use of its good coverage options.

Despite these flaws, Mankey is not unviable. It's just not anything more than a D-rank, with little reason to run it over other fighting types.

 

[Berks]

I'd like to make a special nomination

Wooper Unranked -> Smog Frog specifically
in light of one user and his persistent comments, I'd like to go over how incredibly terrible Wooper is

• a 100% filled out ev spread (hackmons style) gives wooper a spread of 25/14/14/12/12/11, in comparison to chinchou's univested spread of 24/10/10/12/12/13
• could run unaware or water absorb but really needs them both
• doesn't even have rocks
• 4x grass weakness = 100x ass weakness

to conclude shitpost wooper is bad/10

if i have to i'll add real noms later

 

[kingmidas]

I'd like to make a special nomination

Wooper Unranked -> Smog Frog specifically
in light of one user and his persistent comments, I'd like to go over how incredibly terrible Wooper is

• a 100% filled out ev spread (hackmons style) gives wooper a spread of 25/14/14/12/12/11, in comparison to chinchou's univested spread of 24/10/10/12/12/13
• could run unaware or water absorb but really needs them both
• doesn't even have rocks
• 4x grass weakness = 100x ass weakness

to conclude shitpost wooper is bad/10

if i have to i'll add real noms later

water absorb wooper counters magnemite and chinchou without hp grass in one slot, and not even porygon can really claim that.

 

[Berks]

water absorb wooper counters magnemite and chinchou without hp grass in one slot, and not even porygon can really claim that.

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

152 SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Two attacks Pory (with HP Fight cause imo it's the best option) beats both those mons, even if they run hp grass

 

[kingmidas]

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

152 SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Two attacks Pory (with HP Fight cause imo it's the best option) beats both those mons, even if they run hp grass

you do realize magnemite can just either volt switch out, or stall hp fighting with recycle. Hp fighting means you're huge fighter bait and it prevents you from reaching 26/16/16.

 

[Merritt]

water absorb wooper counters magnemite and chinchou without hp grass in one slot, and not even porygon can really claim that.

To be fair, so can Eviolite Chinchou.

I can't think of any reason to actually use Wooper outside of Unaware, because honestly it runs into an issue of low stats. Even though it does counter both Chinchou and Magnemite, it has little utility outside of that, having incredibly low defensive stats and offenses that fail to do much of anything to neutral targets, let alone resists.

I don't support it for Smog Frog, however, since I don't see wooper as so completely unviable that you might as well not have it at all. Wooper has some theoretical uses (they're just really specific and bad) which means it's deserving of unranked status, not blacklisting it.

 

[Berks]

To be fair, so can Eviolite Chinchou.

I can't think of any reason to actually use Wooper outside of Unaware, because honestly it runs into an issue of low stats. Even though it does counter both Chinchou and Magnemite, it has little utility outside of that, having incredibly low defensive stats and offenses that fail to do much of anything to neutral targets, let alone resists.

I don't support it for Smog Frog, however, since I don't see wooper as so completely unviable that you might as well not have it at all. Wooper has some theoretical uses (they're just really specific and bad) which means it's deserving of unranked status, not blacklisting it.

Baltoy, Chimchar, Eevee, Squirtle, and Yamask are all in Smog Frog and have quite a bit of theoretical usage.

why my shitpost gotta get taken down so hard

 

[absdaddy]

lately im tearing shit up with Venipede Ultra Turbo Hyper Offense using purple spikes soaked in a powerful poison that can down strongest pokemon, basic iron spiky spikes, endeavor and last but not least pin missile ,,, my item of choice is a silky Focus Sash that allows me to survive many powerful attacks while leading and spiking and pissing off opponent.
poison pokemon are easy to get rid of, all it takes is another Abs core of Venipede/Diglett/xy ubers gothita(specially defensive; carries evio, likes to rest alot, its mind is very calm, can shock you with its psychic powers hitting your physical defense, likes to play some nasty tricks with your room)


tldr
veni ho with said core or literally anything that helps it achieve its job as a lead makes it viable and its pretty fast to start with, has dual spikes, endeavor+pin beats faster shit without prio, quad resists fight

not an S rank mon or something but D is far too low,,
also tspikes justify using fake out mienfoo for strong chip damage game so people addicted to that ass move get a good excuse
id put it to C

also funny how everyone bitched about my stunker suggestion and now players well above them chirpers actually noticed how big of a mon it is and keep using it

To be fair, so can Eviolite Chinchou.

does it like switching on modest hp ground from analmite after sr or one spikes
im afraid it doesnt

to check what analmite does vs chou switching in(countering as you said) just give it analytic and lagging tail in calc

240+ SpA Analytic Magnemite Hidden Power Ground vs. 76 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Merritt]

does it like switching on modest hp ground from analmite after sr or one spikes
im afraid it doesnt

to check what analmite does vs chou switching in(countering as you said) just give it analytic and lagging tail in calc

240+ SpA Analytic Magnemite Hidden Power Ground vs. 76 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Since the original quote said without hp grass I took it a bit further to make it without a SE hidden power at all. HP grass isn't an uncommon coverage move on either Chinchou or Magnemite (although more Mags run ground) and destroys wooper. I should have stated that more clearly though.

Yeah, Venipede is better than D rank (although trick room goth is) although I wouldn't say full C. After leading, and it is a damn effective lead, its utility is way lower, and it really does mandate Gothita support (that can hit based stunky) since it can't come in multiple times like other bulkier t-spikers.

 

[absdaddy]

Since the original quote said without hp grass I took it a bit further to make it without a SE hidden power at all. HP grass isn't an uncommon coverage move on either Chinchou or Magnemite (although more Mags run ground) and destroys wooper. I should have stated that more clearly though.

Yeah, Venipede is better than D rank (although trick room goth is) although I wouldn't say full C. After leading, and it is a damn effective lead, its utility is way lower, and it really does mandate Gothita support (that can hit based stunky) since it can't come in multiple times like other bulkier t-spikers.

diglett is for stunk and pawniard, properly eved goth for whatevers left of opps team, also I've never seen a single hp grass mag. Rest shock tr cm fatgoth literally destroys teams once either of troublemons mentioned above is gone which isn't hard

 

[boo836]

diglett is for stunk and pawniard, properly eved goth for whatevers left of opps team, also I've never seen a single hp grass mag. Rest shock tr cm fatgoth literally destroys teams once either of troublemons mentioned above is gone which isn't hard

I'm not really a fan of TR fatgoth, but goddamn is RestCM an underappreciated set.