Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Merritt]

Please also remove Starly and Psyduck, and possibly Azurill. I know that you said before Azurill moving down gets people out of the woodwork, so I'd understand if that's a no, but Azurill is really kinda bad.

Starly is pretty much completely outclassed. Sure, it hits pretty hard, but it's also slow for how frail it is and it doesn't hit that hard. It also murders itself incredibly fast. If it got Close Combat like its evolution then yeah, it could stay, but I can't find any reason to use it over Taillow or Fletchling or Doduo at any time.

Psyduck I'm kind of completely clueless about why it's here. Is it because of Cloud Nine? Does it have some incredibly unique set that lets it beat grass types? Is it just sneaking by because it's so bad people don't realize it's there? I am actually at a loss.

Mankey and Skiddo can stay, for the reasons cityfolk listed. They both have usable niches and can work on a serious team, and Mankey's original nomination post is still applicable. They both work, although Skiddo is worse.

Other things to consider in D- Paras and Shroomish are pretty bad, I've never seen someone use them successfully. Smoochum is something that I can see staying, but also going. It's just so frail and not very fast, although ice STAB is hard to find.

 

[tcr]

Yo dont remove skiddo its so cool of a mon!

As stated its access to somewhat decent bulk, milk drink, a boosting move, and sap sipper give it an awesome niche as an anti-snivy mon, so kinda anti-anti-meta, which is really cool. Being able to completely wall things like Chespin, Snivy, Cottonee, Ferroseed (although it needs to be your win con or you'll have to deal with full hazards) all relatively common mons on teams meaning that it can find things to set up on.

On top of that Im sure there are tons of sets that havent fully been discovered yet in its movepool, so I would like to keep it D-rank for a while, and I am going to make it my goal to get it bumped up, bc its so cute and cool.

The other mons arent really all that cute, only chikorita is cute but chikorita sucks, so I'm fine with removing the rest of them. However, I'll probably theorymon a bit and test some stuff to see how viable these mons really are, as the LC community has a tendency to pass through most mons that arent B+ or higher and dismiss them as garbage so I'm always skeptical.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Everything out of D is utter garbage that has no viable use, so I feel that minccino, while still being quihard to fit into a team, is a wallbreaker that hits quite hard and should not be underestimated. It has access to great coverage and U-turn to pivot; few things in the LC meta can switch in safely on a LO set. It has above average speed (17), fastest mon in that rank. Multi-hit moves also break Sturdy and Sashes. Problem is that Minccino is really frail, is weak to fighting-types, and is almost entirelly outclassed by other wallbreakers; for that I think it would be reasonable to take Minccino out of D-rank, but Minccino sheer power, decent speed, Knock Off and pivoting capabilities (and being seem by everyone as a liability) may grant him a spot in dedicated teams.

 

[cityfolk]

Everything out of D is utter garbage that has no viable use, so I feel that minccino, while still being quihard to fit into a team, is a wallbreaker that hits quite hard and should not be underestimated. It has access to great coverage and U-turn to pivot; few things in the LC meta can switch in safely on a LO set. It has above average speed (17), fastest mon in that rank. Multi-hit moves also break Sturdy and Sashes. Problem is that Minccino is really frail, is weak to fighting-types, and is almost entirelly outclassed by other wallbreakers; for that I think it would be reasonable to take Minccino out of D-rank, but Minccino sheer power, decent speed, Knock Off and pivoting capabilities (and being seem by everyone as a liability) may grant him a spot in dedicated teams.

While Mincinno is cute as hell, there is literally no reason to use it. Aipom outclasses it in every way, and each of its stats are higher tan Mincinno's (bar the useless special attack). Both get skill link + multi-hit moves. Tail Slap is stronger than Fury Swipes, but Aipom has 70 attack as opposed to Mincinno's atrocious 50, so it hits just as hard. However, Aipom hits harder with every other move, and boasts an enormous movepool with many more moves than Mincinno, like Hone Claws, Brick Break, Elemental punches, Switcheroo, T-wave, and many more.

There isn't any reason to use Mincinno, remove it from D rank.

 

[Max Carvalho]

While Mincinno is cute as hell, there is literally no reason to use it. Aipom outclasses it in every way, and each of its stats are higher tan Mincinno's (bar the useless special attack). Both get skill link + multi-hit moves. Tail Slap is stronger than Fury Swipes, but Aipom has 70 attack as opposed to Mincinno's atrocious 50, so it hits just as hard. However, Aipom hits harder with every other move, and boasts an enormous movepool with many more moves than Mincinno, like Hone Claws, Brick Break, Elemental punches, Switcheroo, T-wave, and many more.

There isn't any reason to use Mincinno, remove it from D rank.

Thought Tail Slap hit slighty harder than Fury Swipes D: Damn take it out.

 

[Cheryl.]

changes:

surksit B- -> B
tyrunt C -> C+
Croagunk A -> A-

these are basically done, unless anyone objects

not moving Lickitung. Its bulky support set just struggles to find places on teams. It faces the same sort of problem has Lileep in that, yeah it walls a bunch of shit, but it spends the whole game doing nothing but switching in, then having to recover the damage. It is very prone to getting worn down by hazards, and if it gets knocked off its basically useless. Wish+Protect makes it set up bait for loads of shit as well. Does have a niche on full stall but other than that, it's not great. Good in theory, bad in practice.

As for a BP receiver, yeah it's bulky as fuck and has a good movepool, but am I seriously gonna bother having Lickitung just as a receiver, when I can put something else in which won't end up being deadweight?

tazz is correct. there's a reason why we don't see Lickitung in tournament play, besides on full stall.

As for cityfolk's noms -

shelmet: C- or D, I don't really care I'd probably keep it C- but it doesn't really matter
karrablast: if people want it in C, then that's fine i guess
binacle: I'd keep in C+, it has a niche on waterspam/smashspam and it's banderoo set is really cool.
wynaut: ass tazz said, it has a good niche in HO, in that it can switch into things easier than gothita and allow for set up. it can pivot in 2 or 3 times a match and encore which is really important on a HO team.


My nomination:

croagunk to B+. We dropped pancham because its niche is too small, I think Croagunk should go the same way. Yeah it's good and versatile, but we all know it lacks offensive presence sometimes, and gets worn down. It's cool as a smash check, but everyone would still rather use timburr. Since ORAS, pancham only gave it more competition as well.

I'd support tazz's nomination of Diglett to A+, and Gothita to A, read his post I guess
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-viability-rankings.3496013/page-83#post-6285678

Snivy to A-. anti meta as fuck right now, the best offensive grass type. its eviolite set is where it shines imo, it can pivot in with ease and firing off knock offs+leaf storm, and lure stuff with random hidden powers. Most of its checks get worn down pretty quickly which is what makes it so good.

I also think Honedge should be in C+ and not C but don't really wanna bother arguing for it

I agree with snivy

 

[Max Carvalho]

It's worth it to mention that assuming nothing in the opposing team has status, there is almost no opportunity cost on using Glare, unlike Thunder Wave (this is quite unique as I think only Snivy and Ekans got that, or at least are the only viable mons that can use it)

 

[Anthiese]

It's worth it to mention that assuming nothing in the opposing team has status, there is almost no opportunity cost on using Glare, unlike Thunder Wave (this is quite unique as I think only Snivy and Ekans got that, or at least are the only viable mons that can use it)

Helioptile also has access to Glare. It faces stiff competition with Chinchou who outdoes it in many ways. They share Water/Elec Coverage (Helio doesnt get STAB on surf) and a pivoting move in Volt Switch (U-turn as well for Helio) But Helio's typing is worse and suffers from either getting mediocre bulk and not hitting hard enough or hitting somewhat harder and being frail. But being an Electric type who can pivot out of Grounds and having a move to paralyze Grounds as well as coverage to hit them isnt all bad. Also Surf + QA eats up Sash Diglett on the switch.

 

[Berks]

Snivy has deserved to be in the A ranks for so long now, for sure move it up

I support the trapper moves too

 

[The Quasar]

IMO, Mincinno has to move from D.

I give my little cent tomorrow about that, but I can't see why we should prefer it over Aipom that easily outclasses it.

Edit: Mincinno's stats are all lower than Aipom (except SpA that is the same), it's frail and despite Tail Slap is stronger than Fury Swipes, Aipom attacks allows harder hits.

So, why anyone could use it? So I think it's right to remove it from D-rank.

 

[cityfolk]

Phanpy from Unranked to C- or C Rank
I was really surprised to find that this isn't even listed. This thing has insane bulk (90 HP/60 Def/40 SpD) and access to a pretty good movepool. It gets a strong STAB Earthquake (coming off a decent 60 attack), Ice Shard for priority, Knock Off, and some weird coverage options in Superpower, Play Rough, Gunk Shot, Seed Bomb, and even Head Smash. This thing also has access to Stealth Rock and has no trouble setting it up due to it's good bulk. Also, since it has Knock Off, it can easily wear down spinblockers.

Bulbasaur from C to C- or D Rank
There's no reason to use this over Foongus, except if you're extremely desperate for a Knock Off user for some reason or another. Also, it's outclassed severely by Bellsprout as a chlorophyll sweeper (and can't get Chlorophyll + Weather Ball iirc).

Oddish from C- to D Rank
Bellsprout outclasses this. Sure, Oddish has more bulk and 1 more Special Attack, but Bellsprout has access to Weather Ball and can actually run physical coverage moves (Knock Off). I see no reason to use Oddish over Bellsprout so I'm supporting it to move down.

Meowth from C to C+ or B- Rank
This thing hits pretty hard with it's Technician-boosted moves. It is the only thing with access to Technician Fake Out besides Mime Jr. (LOL) and is the sole user of Technician Feint in LC. It's the strongest abuser of Fake Out + Feint with Technician, although it has a low attack stat, it's overshadowed by Technician + Life Orb. It has access to a shit ton of coverage moves, such as Aerial Ace (boosted by Technician; Knock Off + Aerial Ace can KO some fighting types), Gunk Shot, Seed Bomb, and U-Turn (for pivoting!!). It can also run some special moves since it has the Technician boost on some of them, including Technician-boosted Hidden Powers. Specially, it has Hyper Voice, Petal Dance (wtf), Water Pulse (Technician boosted), and Thunderbolt. This thing makes for a fantastic revenge killer, hitting the 19 Speed Tier and putting a huge dent in things with Fake Out + Feint. This thing is pretty underrated and is more of a threat than some would think.

Honedge from C to C+ Rank
Basically, the bane of this thing's existence is Knock Off. However, it has a crazy physical bulk of 45 HP/100 Def (it's SpD is pretty lacking, however). It has coverage options to beat things that threaten it, such as Rock Slide (which won't miss, thanks to No Guard) to catch Fire Types on the switch, and Sacred Sword for Pawniard (and other dark types). It has access to STAB priority in Shadow Sneak, and acts as a set-up sweeper with Swords Dance. This thing is also a good trapper with pursuit, and basically counters Abra.

I also support Snivy to move from B+ to A- for the reasons stated earlier in other people's posts.

Edit: I also think Anorith should be higher than C- but I don't feel like writing another paragraph.

 

[kingmidas]

Phanpy from Unranked to C- or C Rank
I was really surprised to find that this isn't even listed. This thing has insane bulk (90 HP/60 Def/40 SpD) and access to a pretty good movepool. It gets a strong STAB Earthquake (coming off a decent 60 attack), Ice Shard for priority, Knock Off, and some weird coverage options in Superpower, Play Rough, Gunk Shot, Seed Bomb, and even Head Smash. This thing also has access to Stealth Rock and has no trouble setting it up due to it's good bulk. Also, since it has Knock Off, it can easily wear down spinblockers.

Bulbasaur from C to C- or D Rank
There's no reason to use this over Foongus, except if you're extremely desperate for a Knock Off user for some reason or another. Also, it's outclassed severely by Bellsprout as a chlorophyll sweeper (and can't get Chlorophyll + Weather Ball iirc).

Oddish from C- to D Rank
Bellsprout outclasses this. Sure, Oddish has more bulk and 1 more Special Attack, but Bellsprout has access to Weather Ball and can actually run physical coverage moves (Knock Off). I see no reason to use Oddish over Bellsprout so I'm supporting it to move down.

Meowth from C to C+ or B- Rank
This thing hits pretty hard with it's Technician-boosted moves. It is the only thing with access to Technician Fake Out besides Mime Jr. (LOL) and is the sole user of Technician Feint in LC. It's the strongest abuser of Fake Out + Feint with Technician, although it has a low attack stat, it's overshadowed by Technician + Life Orb. It has access to a shit ton of coverage moves, such as Aerial Ace (boosted by Technician; Knock Off + Aerial Ace can KO some fighting types), Gunk Shot, Seed Bomb, and U-Turn (for pivoting!!). It can also run some special moves since it has the Technician boost on some of them, including Technician-boosted Hidden Powers. Specially, it has Hyper Voice, Petal Dance (wtf), Water Pulse (Technician boosted), and Thunderbolt. This thing makes for a fantastic revenge killer, hitting the 19 Speed Tier and putting a huge dent in things with Fake Out + Feint. This thing is pretty underrated and is more of a threat than some would think.

Honedge from C to C+ Rank
Basically, the bane of this thing's existence is Knock Off. However, it has a crazy physical bulk of 45 HP/100 Def (it's SpD is pretty lacking, however). It has coverage options to beat things that threaten it, such as Rock Slide (which won't miss, thanks to No Guard) to catch Fire Types on the switch, and Sacred Sword for Pawniard (and other dark types). It has access to STAB priority in Shadow Sneak, and acts as a set-up sweeper with Swords Dance. This thing is also a good trapper with pursuit, and basically counters Abra.

I also support Snivy to move from B+ to A- for the reasons stated earlier in other people's posts.

Phanphy's bulk is good but its not insanely good when you realize how shitty a defensive typing ground is. Its outclassed by sandshrew and drilbur, of which the former has knock off and greater physical bulk (which is more relevant) and higher attack to use EQ/rock slide/koff, and the latter has a very important benchmark speed hits much harder, has access to stuff like SD and can actually threaten stuff with its powerful stab from the get go. Ice shard is weak and doesn't hit anything important, why would you run it. The rest of the moves are just random coverage that doesn't accomplish much bar gunk shot which is decent for hitting grass types. It doesn't even get rapid spin, its just an SR mon that can't do much outside of it. D rank at best.

I find it hard to believe you ever used bulbasaur if you think its outclassed by bellsprout that badly. No one is gonna use it over foongus, that has nothing to do with it. What it has over bellsprout is actual bulk, it can tank hits from fighters and get in much easier, as well as wear down its answers with knock off before finishing them off, making up for its lack of power initially and its less useless outside of sun because of that. It doesn't rely on sludge bomb poison chances to break through vullaby n company. Weather ball would be cool to have but in return you have the added bulk to take priority from pawniard and I believe 21/12 with eviolite can take an acro from fletchling if it needs to. It works much better on sun balance than sun offense where bellsprout is superior because it doesn't just do its own thing with support from the rest of the team.

Meowth has 4mss and its a pick your poison on what you wanna lose to and hit. You cannot have koff and aerial ace if you want water pulse or u-turn instead of aerial ace, not to mention u-turn is not tech boosted. Meowth is a decent revenge killer, but even with tech he is weak, especially when fake out and feint have extremely low bp to begin with, theres issues there. Fire types and ferroseed are major problems, as they both switch in easy on (water pulse on ponyta doesn't hurt that badly to my knowledge but larvesta cannot as well) and ferroseed just sits in front of it. Its outclassed by aipom who has ways of getting past its answers and hits extremely hard, have a spammable stab, and an amazing movepool + the same speed tier, while it lacks priority its much more threatening, and suffers teh same issues as fires/ferroseed (except it can actually beat ferroseed).

Honedge's physical bulk is undermined by the slightly low hp so theres an issue there. Rock slide just hits larvesta and pony, and in return you give up SD or pursuit, which are its best parts. Abra can just run shadow ball and nuke you if it has its sash up its a strong check but not a counter, its an easy switch in for most mons because its stabs don't hit hard enough and swords dance relies on shadow sneak to do damage to anything faster to prevent an RK.

 

[cityfolk]

Phanphy's bulk is good but its not insanely good when you realize how shitty a defensive typing ground is. Its outclassed by sandshrew and drilbur, of which the former has knock off and greater physical bulk (which is more relevant) and higher attack to use EQ/rock slide/koff, and the latter has a very important benchmark speed hits much harder, has access to stuff like SD and can actually threaten stuff with its powerful stab from the get go. Ice shard is weak and doesn't hit anything important, why would you run it. The rest of the moves are just random coverage that doesn't accomplish much bar gunk shot which is decent for hitting grass types. It doesn't even get rapid spin, its just an SR mon that can't do much outside of it. D rank at best.

I find it hard to believe you ever used bulbasaur if you think its outclassed by bellsprout that badly. No one is gonna use it over foongus, that has nothing to do with it. What it has over bellsprout is actual bulk, it can tank hits from fighters and get in much easier, as well as wear down its answers with knock off before finishing them off, making up for its lack of power initially and its less useless outside of sun because of that. It doesn't rely on sludge bomb poison chances to break through vullaby n company. Weather ball would be cool to have but in return you have the added bulk to take priority from pawniard and I believe 21/12 with eviolite can take an acro from fletchling if it needs to. It works much better on sun balance than sun offense where bellsprout is superior because it doesn't just do its own thing with support from the rest of the team.

Meowth has 4mss and its a pick your poison on what you wanna lose to and hit. You cannot have koff and aerial ace if you want water pulse or u-turn instead of aerial ace, not to mention u-turn is not tech boosted. Meowth is a decent revenge killer, but even with tech he is weak, especially when fake out and feint have extremely low bp to begin with, theres issues there. Fire types and ferroseed are major problems, as they both switch in easy on (water pulse on ponyta doesn't hurt that badly to my knowledge but larvesta cannot as well) and ferroseed just sits in front of it. Its outclassed by aipom who has ways of getting past its answers and hits extremely hard, have a spammable stab, and an amazing movepool + the same speed tier, while it lacks priority its much more threatening, and suffers teh same issues as fires/ferroseed (except it can actually beat ferroseed).

Honedge's physical bulk is undermined by the slightly low hp so theres an issue there. Rock slide just hits larvesta and pony, and in return you give up SD or pursuit, which are its best parts. Abra can just run shadow ball and nuke you if it has its sash up its a strong check but not a counter, its an easy switch in for most mons because its stabs don't hit hard enough and swords dance relies on shadow sneak to do damage to anything faster to prevent an RK.

I agree that ground isn't fantastic, but Phanpy really deserves to be ranked somewhere.

You say that Bulbasaur can "wear down its answers with knock off before finishing them off" but Bellsprout also has access to Knock Off and has a great 75 Attack stat as opposed to Bulbasaur's sub-par 49. You also claim that Bulbasaur "doesn't rely on sludge bomb poison chances to break through vullaby n company" but how exactly is Bulbasaur supposed to break through Vullaby and "company" (I suppose this means walls like Porygon which are 2HKO'd by Solarbeam, but please feel free to explain what you meant) any better than Bellsprout can?

"You have the added bulk to take priority from Pawniard" so can Bellsprout ??
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Bellsprout: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And you imply the added bulk makes up for not having Weather Ball but that really isn't true, since HP fire is a lot weaker.

Also, Bulbasaur can't take a Fletchling Acrobatics with 21/12 bulk, as you thought.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Eviolite Bulbasaur: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(and this is without Stealth Rock).

As for Meowth, it really isn't all that weak. Fake Out + Feint kills Fletch after rocks, and can pretty much revenge every Choice Scarf user. Also, Feint has +2 priority which is extremely valuable. Sure, Meowth has 4mss but each moveslot is extremely valuable and lets it plow through a ton of its checks (Water Pulse for Pony/Larv/Rock Types, Aerial Ace for fighters, U-turn for pivoting, various Hidden Powers).

"Water Pulse on Ponyta doesn't hurt that badly"
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also Ferroseed does not just "sit in front of it," since it has technician-boosted hidden power to cripple it's checks as I've stated several times.
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If you're really weak to Ferro, you can run HP Fire, but if you run the typical HP Fighting set, Ferroseed can only reliably switch in one time.
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Hidden Power Fighting vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It most certainly is not outclassed by Aipom, since their roles differ. You said Aipom can "actually beat Ferroseed" but Aipom really doesn't have a lot of room (Fake Out, Fury Swipes, Knock Off, U-turn - and it would probably prefer Brick Break over Fire Punch anyway) and Meowth has Technician Hidden Powers.

As for Honedge, it does obviously have it's flaws. However, Abra fails to ohko with Shadow Ball (240 SpA Abra Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 140 SpD Eviolite Honedge: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - you mentioned sash abra not life orb, since life orb abra is obviously OHKO'd by shadow sneak). It also serves as a fantastic check to normals, fairies, and some birds (not all of them - mainly Taillow and non-overheat fletch). Also Abra doesn't have room for Shadow Ball on the Sash set (psychic/dgleam/hp fighting/protect) and although Life Orb can run Shadow Ball it dies to Shadow Sneak, so Honedge is a pretty efficient check. However I do agree with what you said about it's low HP and I think it's lack of special bulk also does hold it back.

Also, you have no idea what mons I do and don't use, so feel free to never make that accusation again. Thanks for the reply, though!

 

[kingmidas]

I agree that ground isn't fantastic, but Phanpy really deserves to be ranked somewhere.

You say that Bulbasaur can "wear down its answers with knock off before finishing them off" but Bellsprout also has access to Knock Off and has a great 75 Attack stat as opposed to Bulbasaur's sub-par 49. You also claim that Bulbasaur "doesn't rely on sludge bomb poison chances to break through vullaby n company" but how exactly is Bulbasaur supposed to break through Vullaby and "company" (I suppose this means walls like Porygon which are 2HKO'd by Solarbeam, but please feel free to explain what you meant) any better than Bellsprout can?

"You have the added bulk to take priority from Pawniard" so can Bellsprout ??
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Bellsprout: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And you imply the added bulk makes up for not having Weather Ball but that really isn't true, since HP fire is a lot weaker.

Also, Bulbasaur can't take a Fletchling Acrobatics with 21/12 bulk, as you thought.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Eviolite Bulbasaur: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(and this is without Stealth Rock).

As for Meowth, it really isn't all that weak. Fake Out + Feint kills Fletch after rocks, and can pretty much revenge every Choice Scarf user. Also, Feint has +2 priority which is extremely valuable. Sure, Meowth has 4mss but each moveslot is extremely valuable and lets it plow through a ton of its checks (Water Pulse for Pony/Larv/Rock Types, Aerial Ace for fighters, U-turn for pivoting, various Hidden Powers).

"Water Pulse on Ponyta doesn't hurt that badly"
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also Ferroseed does not just "sit in front of it," since it has technician-boosted hidden power to cripple it's checks as I've stated several times.
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If you're really weak to Ferro, you can run HP Fire, but if you run the typical HP Fighting set, Ferroseed can only reliably switch in one time.
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Hidden Power Fighting vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It most certainly is not outclassed by Aipom, since their roles differ. You said Aipom can "actually beat Ferroseed" but Aipom really doesn't have a lot of room (Fake Out, Fury Swipes, Knock Off, U-turn - and it would probably prefer Brick Break over Fire Punch anyway) and Meowth has Technician Hidden Powers.

As for Honedge, it does obviously have it's flaws. However, Abra fails to ohko with Shadow Ball (240 SpA Abra Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 140 SpD Eviolite Honedge: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - you mentioned sash abra not life orb, since life orb abra is obviously OHKO'd by shadow sneak). It also serves as a fantastic check to normals, fairies, and some birds (not all of them - mainly Taillow and non-overheat fletch). Also Abra doesn't have room for Shadow Ball on the Sash set (psychic/dgleam/hp fighting/protect) and although Life Orb can run Shadow Ball it dies to Shadow Sneak, so Honedge is a pretty efficient check. However I do agree with what you said about it's low HP and I think it's lack of special bulk also does hold it back.

Also, you have no idea what mons I do and don't use, so feel free to never make that accusation again. Thanks for the reply, though!

Bellsprout is better off using sleep powder, as it doesn't wanna risk koffing on the switch when it could be KO'd, LO is the superior set and already hits hard enough. Yes its outclassed still, but its not d ranked worthy. OMG WOW YOU RAN A CALC?? I wasn't sure w.e sue me, neither is bellsprout living.

Fletchling isn't exactly that bulky, and choice scarf magnemite is the most common rn and takes a shat on meowth trying to revenge kill it. I didn't realize you were running naive on it, less bulk but w.e. ponyta runs 12 sdef which won't make much of a difference. I feel like you are just nitpiking what few things I assumed just to feel right. So now you mention hp fire, the god set, u-turn fake out feint water pulse aerial ace hidden power fire knock off, k. It has bad 4mss. Aipom doesn't run fake out. Aipom outclasses it by being harder to revenge kill due to actual bulk, it doesn't need LO, it can switch into things, meowth is a glass cannon that requires you to predict right to actually eliminate threats, at the risk of you sacking your mon. I fail to see a reason to run this over fletchling or aipom because they both offer similar things at the ability to run bulk alongside their power. Protect is for ladder with all the fake out foos, no one seriously playing ever uses it. Honestly if you want meowth to ever be useful you need to run aerial ace or water pulse alongside koff, the rest of the moves are just fillers that attempt to provide depth but are honestly underwhelming.

 

[cityfolk]

Bellsprout is better off using sleep powder, as it doesn't wanna risk koffing on the switch when it could be KO'd, LO is the superior set and already hits hard enough. Yes its outclassed still, but its not d ranked worthy. OMG WOW YOU RAN A CALC?? I wasn't sure w.e sue me, neither is bellsprout living.

Fletchling isn't exactly that bulky, and choice scarf magnemite is the most common rn and takes a shat on meowth trying to revenge kill it. I didn't realize you were running naive on it, less bulk but w.e. ponyta runs 12 sdef which won't make much of a difference. I feel like you are just nitpiking what few things I assumed just to feel right. So now you mention hp fire, the god set, u-turn fake out feint water pulse aerial ace hidden power fire knock off, k. It has bad 4mss. Aipom doesn't run fake out. Aipom outclasses it by being harder to revenge kill due to actual bulk, it doesn't need LO, it can switch into things, meowth is a glass cannon that requires you to predict right to actually eliminate threats, at the risk of you sacking your mon. I fail to see a reason to run this over fletchling or aipom because they both offer similar things at the ability to run bulk alongside their power. Protect is for ladder with all the fake out foos, no one seriously playing ever uses it. Honestly if you want meowth to ever be useful you need to run aerial ace or water pulse alongside koff, the rest of the moves are just fillers that attempt to provide depth but are honestly underwhelming.

Yes it's true that Bellsprout prefers Sleep Powder, but Knock Off is still useful like it could be on Bulbasaur (who, imo, should also run sleep powder). Yes I ran a calc - don't include incorrect information in your argument if you don't want to be proven wrong. And no, I didn't expect Bellsprout to live - the calc just showed that Bulbasaur isn't bulky enough to tank a Fletchling acrobatics, even though Bulbasaur's bulk is it's niche over Bellsprout.

I know Fletchling isn't all that bulky, but being able to revenge kill without being worn down by acrobatics is very nice. Also that Magnemite mention is pretty irrelevant since I can just run teammates to check scarf magnemite (which wasn't part of the argument anyway). And yes, Naive is best for mixed Meowth since Meowth really isn't taking a hit either way so bulk doesn't matter. I'm not just "nitpicking" at things you're saying, I gave reasonable arguments against most of your post (I did forget to mention what you said about meowth's 4mss, but I do agree that it has this, however it basically picks what counters it with all of the viable moves it has at its disposal). "So now you mention hp fire, the god set, u-turn fake out feint water pulse aerial ace hidden power fire knock off, k." Again, I'm just saying it can run any of these moves easily, it picks its counters and can run any of these.

Aipom does like to run Fake Out, since Fake Out + Fury Swipes singlehandedly KO's Mienfoo and puts large dents in walls. Yes Aipom and Fletchling both have bulk unlike Meowth, but bulk isn't Meowth's niche, and the viability of Fletchling and Aipom don't make a difference when it comes to Meowth. Also Protect on Abra isn't just for Mienfoo, it's for any Fake Out user, and can be used to scout moves.

I agree that Aerial Ace/Water Pulse are the best fillers for Meowth, but it can still easily run other ones to eliminate it's checks and actually aren't underwhelming since many of them receive Technician boosts.

 

[kingmidas]

Yes it's true that Bellsprout prefers Sleep Powder, but Knock Off is still useful like it could be on Bulbasaur (who, imo, should also run sleep powder). Yes I ran a calc - don't include incorrect information in your argument if you don't want to be proven wrong. And no, I didn't expect Bellsprout to live - the calc just showed that Bulbasaur isn't bulky enough to tank a Fletchling acrobatics, even though Bulbasaur's bulk is it's niche over Bellsprout.

I know Fletchling isn't all that bulky, but being able to revenge kill without being worn down by acrobatics is very nice. Also that Magnemite mention is pretty irrelevant since I can just run teammates to check scarf magnemite (which wasn't part of the argument anyway). And yes, Naive is best for mixed Meowth since Meowth really isn't taking a hit either way so bulk doesn't matter. I'm not just "nitpicking" at things you're saying, I gave reasonable arguments against most of your post (I did forget to mention what you said about meowth's 4mss, but I do agree that it has this, however it basically picks what counters it with all of the viable moves it has at its disposal). "So now you mention hp fire, the god set, u-turn fake out feint water pulse aerial ace hidden power fire knock off, k." Again, I'm just saying it can run any of these moves easily, it picks its counters and can run any of these.

Aipom does like to run Fake Out, since Fake Out + Fury Swipes singlehandedly KO's Mienfoo and puts large dents in walls. Yes Aipom and Fletchling both have bulk unlike Meowth, but bulk isn't Meowth's niche, and the viability of Fletchling and Aipom don't make a difference when it comes to Meowth. Also Protect on Abra isn't just for Mienfoo, it's for any Fake Out user, and can be used to scout moves.

I agree that Aerial Ace/Water Pulse are the best fillers for Meowth, but it can still easily run other ones to eliminate it's checks and actually aren't underwhelming since many of them receive Technician boosts.

Look, its clear you're being to stubborn to back done on the meowth thing, as noted by your lack of regard for choice scarf magnemite being a scarfer, something that you said could revenge kill. One last thing though, aipom does not always run fake out anymore, it doesn't need it, it wants koff u-turn brick break fury swipes, if you wanna talk to me about whats standard, go ahead but I am qc for a reason.

 

[cityfolk]

Look, its clear you're being to stubborn to back done on the meowth thing, as noted by your lack of regard for choice scarf magnemite being a scarfer, something that you said could revenge kill. One last thing though, aipom does not always run fake out anymore, it doesn't need it, it wants koff u-turn brick break fury swipes, if you wanna talk to me about whats standard, go ahead but I am qc for a reason.

So what if Magnemite can revenge kill it? Any frail attacker can be revenge killed by a scarfer it isn't that big of a deal. I know Aipom doesn't always run fake out anymore. And no I won't be discussing what's standard with you since you make every conversation unpleasant, including this one which is now flooding the forums.

ANYWAY, I mentioned this earlier but didn't elaborate, but I do believe Anorith should be higher than C-. It's main problem is meh defensive typing and an inability to hit fighting types. However it hits the great 18 Speed tier and has access to a fast rapid spin and stealth rock. It is a cool check for stuff like Gastly (who speed ties it and can't OHKO), Archen (outsped and KO'd unless you get 2 hits), Larvesta, and others. Knock Off is great for team support and Aqua Jet (although not the best choice) can be used as priority. It's not fantastic but I do believe it's better than everything else in C- (garbage like Natu and Growlithe), so I'm supporting a raise to C.

 

[Merritt]

Meowth is honestly better than originally placed, but a move to B- is too far. It has fantastic coverage, but Meowth isn't actually particularly strong, especially in the neutral game. You rely heavily on Technician, as non-boosted moves are extremely weak, and 4mss is very prominent in Meowth's moveset. If you run the combo of fake out+feint you're hyping then you're left with exactly two moves to deal with everything that switches in. Since feint is doing pretty much jack to everything due to how absurdly weak it is even post-technician, you must be able to have an answer in your other slots. You want knock off, since that allows you to provide support, but you also want u-turn in order to pivot out of bad matchups, which is most of the meta depending on your coverage. Meowth's damage output is frighteningly low when it's hitting neutrally, as it's lucky to 3HKO some of the less bulky threats if it only packs neutral coverage.

36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(yes, this is the best move it has outside Aerial Ace for hitting Mienfoo)

You can run something like Return to actually have a decently powerful STAB option for neutral, but that only reduces your choices more. Meowth cannot afford to fail to KO either, since it's so frail (especially when holding a LO) that pretty much anything can KO it back. Revenge killers (yes, including scarf magnemite) can come in and completely take back momentum, or even just a scarfed mon that can take one of Meowth's neutral hits.

While Meowth isn't dead weight on most teams, it's not on the same level as Aipom, who doesn't have an issue with getting kills despite not having as good coverage as Meowth. C+ would be acceptable, but I can't see it going any higher since its 4mss and lack of neutral power are big issues.

As for Honedge, while I love the little bastard sword, it has severe issues in LC. It's slow, has absolutely terrible special bulk, and even its physical bulk is much less impressive when you consider that you have absolutely no recovery. While it can run SD to help its middling power it's fairly easily killed due to its low speed. It's still a really cool mon though and having actually perfect neutral coverage in two slots is always amazing. It should stay where it is.

 

[Anthiese]

saying a lot here

cityfolk...

You said that MEowth revenged scarfers. KM jus tbrought up one he doesnt. No need to get bent out of shape. It's true that Meowth has to contend with Aipom because well tehy are very similiar. Fast dont lie combined with a plethora of attacking moves. They break teams in different ways. However you cannot ignore the fact that Mag is one of the most common scarfers as of now and still try to say that it revenges scarfers. Also why would you use a mon with barely any bulk to begin with to check scarfers. That doesnt add up in the end. You'd want bulk so that you can secure the KO if you low roll anyways. But that's besides the point.

phanpy tho

Next lemme talk about Phanpy. Sandshrew does horribly outclass it however. High bulk + no recovery is really bad and well, 4mss sucks. Phanpy has a bunch of coverage attacks though

Seed Bomb
KO
Ice Shard
Head Smash
Gunk Shot
Play Rough

But you can only fit 1-2 on a set. SR / STAB / KO or filler / filler are usually what works best. Being an SR mon without Sturdy, or Hazard removal is not really going to work out for it. Sad it cant get spin despite it's evo getting it.

raising anorith and calling natu garbage

Anorith does have the yung Aerial Ace. It's something to hit fighting types. Overall i feel Anorith's underwhelming as fuck. It's STAB combo is really awkward which forces it to run mostly coverage mvoes to cover this up. AJ + KO + SR + Spin i guess is an alright mvoeset but what is it really doing?

Natu on the other hand isnt garbage like you're proposing. It's true it's also underwhelming but Magic Bounce is great and it hits a comfortable speed (17 after max spe + nature) and has typical psychic coverage. Why arent we using offensive Natu to shit on Hazard mons? I know that most hazard mons would be carrying Rock Slide but Giga + Roost (for Onix, Dril, Shrew, and other rock / ground types) and well Colbur Berry cna take a KO from Ferro, and roast it and also block it's status + hazards. Sounds pretty solid if you ask me.

 

[Cheryl.]

I feel as if Scraggy should move up to B+. It's a pretty good Dragon Dance sweeper and has three good abilities and a decent typing. Problems are that it's walled by Fairy types, who can tank a Poison Jab after a boost, and Fletchling being common also doesn't help it, but I feel as if it's better than B rank and should go up to B+. Edit I asyo think Omanyte could use a rise. Its Shell Smash set is fucking potent, especially with 90 special attack. Omanyte has just tn he right coverage to hit everything except forFerrosee hard.Omanyte can also make use of its solid bulk in a utility set, as it has access to every hazard except for Sticky Web. While Omanyte hs trouble with the common Fighting andass types running around, I think it deserves a rise to A.

Damn this thread is sorta dead. Also,any thoughts about a potential Corphish rise? I'm really starting to like how it can just steamroll through weakened teams with Choice Band aqua jet, and it has Crabhammer to crush even some bulky mons like Lickitung. Definetly a cool mon and imo deserving of a rise.

can we get discussion on these noms?

 

[Tymano]

Scraggy B --> B+ Disagree: On paper, scraggy seems good, it gets stab knock off, it has good bulk, it can boost its speed with D-Dance. But when you actually use it in battle, it falls apart. Unboosted, it is outclassed by most other dark and fighting types. And it is checked by most fairies, and countered by snubbull, who can beat it with T-wave to cripple it, lowers its attack with intimidate, and OHKO's it with play rough. Spritzee can tank one, or even two poison jabs and OHKO with moonblast. And a combination of these factors make it not as good as most of what is in B-rank.

 

[tcr]

Er

236 Atk Scraggy Iron Tail vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Snubbull: 22-26 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)

With rocks up Scraggy just needs to DD on the switch to beat Snubbull. Yeah iron tail isnt common, but it can be, and makes it not able to counter. Evio Snubbull loses with rocks up as well.

Shed Skin makes any form of status kinda null, its reliable enough in BW LC for Scraggy to be considered a good Misdreavus switchin that I think its reliable enough to be used.

Its one of the few (if only) Fighting-types with an atk+speed boosting move, and depending on the set wins against other "counters" like Mienfoo, Timburr, Snubbull, etc. A lot of its matchups can be tossups yeah but its not being nommed for A rank. Being walled by Fairy types most of the time shouldnt hold it back from being B+ imo.

As a side note, it also has a ton of cool other options it could use, scarf moxie, a bulky intimidate set, ability to run head smash for larv/vullaby, zen for mienfoo / gunk, iron tail for spritzee / snubbull, bulky taunt sets, etc. i support it to b+

 

[Anthiese]

can we get discussion on these noms?

Scraggy: Stay

Fairies and Fights destroy this thing. Yeah +1 DD Scrag is a monster but it's still underwhelming, having to run the slightly inaccurate Iron Tail to make ends meet isnt the best. Plus it has to choose between longevity and killing power ( Drain vs HJK respectively) I do like it's STAB combo but defensively it's p downhill.

Corphish: Stay

Phish imo is one dimensional. AOA has fantastic Water + Fight + Dark coverage while DD / SD wallbreaks. But in the end, it's too slow to capitalize on things or it has to set up meaning it's not going to pull it's weight until later.

 

[tazz]

Scraggy: Stay

Fairies and Fights destroy this thing. Yeah +1 DD Scrag is a monster but it's still underwhelming, having to run the slightly inaccurate Iron Tail to make ends meet isnt the best. Plus it has to choose between longevity and killing power ( Drain vs HJK respectively) I do like it's STAB combo but defensively it's p downhill.

Corphish: Stay

Phish imo is one dimensional. AOA has fantastic Water + Fight + Dark coverage while DD / SD wallbreaks. But in the end, it's too slow to capitalize on things or it has to set up meaning it's not going to pull it's weight until later.

at 13 speed corphish is fast enough to OHKO the unresisted meta and powerful enough to OHKO much of the faster meta, and can survive a hit or two with reasonable bulk. Just the raw power of crab hammer is extremely difficult for many teams to face, as every time it comes in something will be dented. It doesn't really have to set up to be terrifying, SD/DD are just moves that allow it to make bigger holes/clean

 

[Cheryl.]

Okay. What about my Omanyte nomination in the Scraggy post? I think nobody saw that.