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Leading in gen V

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by homestead, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. homestead

    homestead

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    Ok so this is my first post so be kind.

    Ok lets face it despite additions in gen V to alter their standing stealth rock and other entry hazards will remain integral to all metagames. As gen IV proved often the most effective way to set up these key moves was through the use of suicide leads, or bulky leads. Many also found the easiest way to prevent the move's use was through anti-leads meant to kill off the opponents before it can get up stealth rock, or do any serious damage after getting it up. since gen V has brought some new toys to play with in the leading department so I'm briefly gonna explore how each field of leads may change with the B/W metagame as it evolves.

    Feel free to expand on or insult(constructive criticism at its best:P) my ideas.

    Anti Leads- Where in the past anti leads were primarily slow hard hitting pokemon that could take a hit and dish a bigger one back to be followed up by a priority move. This generation opens up possibilities for fast hard hittting anti leads with the addition of espeon.
    Heres how situations could potentially play out

    Infernape @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 64 Atk / 252 Spa / 192 Spe
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
    - Fake Out
    - Stealth Rock/U-Turn
    - Fire Blast
    - Close Combat / Encore/Mach Punch
    (Do note that U-Turn and Mach Punch aren't on the traditional lead infernape set, but they might see some use occasionally)
    &
    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Magic Mirror
    Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk)/Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
    252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 Atk
    ~Calm Mind
    ~Psycho Shock
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Fighting]/Hidden Power [Fire]/Grass Knot
    vs.
    Swampert @ Leftovers
    Torrent
    Relaxed [+Def -Spd]
    240 HP | 216 Def | 52 Sp.Atk
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar

    So traditionally our lead infernape is useless against lead swampert its options consist of faking out for some damage getting out stealth rock on the sash and the switching, or trying to kill swampert which as we know isn't really gonna happen. When we throw Espeon in the mix things change. Infernape Fake outs U-Turns on the rocks or the EQ Espeon comes in takes the hit or reflects the stealth rock and threatens to kill swampert with grass knot. Thus allowing both pokemon to survive and the threats of both Stealth Rock and Swampert are neutralized, and infernape to play a new role as sweeper/scout with its current moveset and counter eliminated.

    Bulky and suicide leads-
    Considering the new limitation of stealth rock no longer being a tm move all the popular old leads will remain relatively the same in order to keep stealth rock on their moveset. There are a few new bulky pokemon that actually learn stealth rock, but they have odd typings so it will be interesting to see how they find their place into the meagame.

    Well apparently I've written a lot so I'm finna call it quits, what do you guys think will happen to leads as we discover more and more about black and white?
  2. rotomnic2

    rotomnic2

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    It's only a thought, but i think that Archaeos will be a good anti-lead, as long as priority moves on leads don't be that popular this gen.
  3. Neto-senpai

    Neto-senpai

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    Aggron@LightBall
    Ability: Sturdy
    Move1: Stealth Rocks
    Move2: Stone Edge
    Move3: Fling
    Move4: Metal Burst\Protect
    Nature: Adamant
    EV: 4 HP \ 252 Atk \ 252 Spe
    With sturdy working as Focus Sash it can run another item for faster rockers in Fling+Light Ball, which brakes their own Sash and Paralyzes them to finish with Stone Edge.
    If the opponent doesn't taunt, Aggron can easily set-up Stealth Rocks.
    For faster hard hitters Aggron can work with Metal Burst as a Counter-Sash combo seen in some leads if Stealth Rock isn't that important.
    Protect can save Sturdy from Fake Outers.
  4. Shimrit As

    Shimrit As

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    Personally I'd want to lead with Infernape when the metagame is still new because it should get favourable match-ups against many other leads. The new Sturdy mons are all screwed over by Fake Out + either of its STAB attacks and it's ability to set-up Stealth Rock itself right from the start will be valuable. The main advantage Infernape has in Gen V is really being able to manage opposing leads well because many hyped-up and "promising" options like Balloon Heatran and Agirudaa will be forced out by it.
  5. STEELDRAGON

    STEELDRAGON

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    Agirudaa looks like a amazing lead, 145 base speed, spikes, baton pass, encore and recover, I expect it to be one of the top leads of the generation.
  6. bubbly

    bubbly

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    I don't even want to think about how to choose a lead before the metagame settles down a bit. There are a number of new pokemon, particularly Agirudaa and Natty which would last gen have been easily some of the most popular set up leads.

    However, I'm not sure if the same kind of approach to leading is going to happen, due to a couple of things, such as Magic Mirror and Shanderaa.
  7. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    I think the most important lead is going to be Borutorosu.

    Something like:
    Borutorosu @ Life Orb
    Trait: Mischievous Heart
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast / Hammer Arm
    - Hidden Power [ice]

    Taunt blocks any set up lead completely. Then you also have the option of beating the crap out of things. Yache or Rock resist berry would be more defensive options.. Thunderwave would be worth looking at as well.

    I havent done any calcs with it, so the EVs are just the default, but I expect its what you will use anyway.

    So yeah, if you want an SR lead, the first thing to check is can it beat this thing..

    Have a nice day.
  8. Da Letter El

    Da Letter El Officially internet famous
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    I will say that the mere threat of stealth rocks being reflected back on their user will make pokemon leading with stealth rocks much more hesitant to immediately use them.

    However, depending on how we decide to play gen 5 I think will play a huge role in what kinds of leads we will use. TheMaskedNitpicker made a really good point in his OP of the "End of Scouting" thread; since opponents likely will be able to see our entire team, it isn't nearly as reasonable nor as effective to have a team with one standard go-to lead, but rather multiple pokemon that can fill a leading role depending on the opponent's team. Of course, you can always play mind-games with this and use non-lead azelf/aerodactyl and lead with something else, for example, but that's beside the point. I think that "leads" like metagross, jirachi, and swampert will be much more prevalent than pokemon who tend to specialize in leading, i.e. aerodactyl, azelf, and ninjask (lol); I mean, who uses non-lead ninjask (who uses ninjask is probably the better question, though...). This encourages audibling who one would lead with, makes it less predictable to an opponent in terms of their own lead selection, and drives teams to have at least two pokemon who can lead that are able to, combined, take on a large majority of pokemon that might be used to lead. As a consequence, I'm not quite sure how effective espeon will be should "leads" decide to follow that path and be potentially multiple different pokemon, since stealth rocks on more than one team member seems redundant. That would mean that actually leading with a pokemon with stealth rocks might not always be used.

    Eh, i just kind of clumped a bunch of different thoughts together. Hopefully things came out coherently.
  9. Luisv96

    Luisv96

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    I prefer Iron Fist Infernape for Mach Punch. Blaze sucks.
  10. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    NINJA CLAM

    Agirudaa @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Spikes
    - U-turn
    - Bug Buzz
    - Yawn

    I've been using this and it's pretty consistent imo. I hope I don't have to explain how this works lol. Unfortunately, the lack of Taunt means the enemy will set up as well, and Agirudaa vs Agirudaa leadwars aren't exactly pretty. Fortunately, it makes up the lack of Taunt with U-turn, allowing it to escape Erufuun and Borutorosu on their Taunts (Lepardas is annoying though since it gets Fake Out and Sucker Punch along with MH Taunt, but oh well). As Mischievous Heart makes Taunt a priority move, you can react easier against the latter since it's either taunting or attacking. Yawn ensures nothing really sets up on this, and with Spikes/U-turn it can cause quite a bit of damage. Being a Bug type, it also ruins most Magic Coat users with its STABs :)
  11. Elliot Gale

    Elliot Gale

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    Kojondo @ Life Orb
    Regeneration
    Jolly: 252 atk/252 spe/6 hp
    ~ Fake Out
    ~ U-Turn
    ~ Low Kick/Hi Jump Kick/Drain Punch
    ~ Taunt/Knock Off/Protect

    A lot like Nape, but with a bit more staying power.
  12. red12345

    red12345

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    Zoroark leads, Sturdy Leads and Magic Mirror switch in are the new ones
  13. Ginku

    Ginku Farbenprächtig
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    Erufuun@leftovers
    Bold nature, 252 hp/ 40def/ 212 Sdef

    Taunt
    Encore
    Protect
    U-turn

    This is the bane of spike stackers, SR, DDers, Agility passers/sweepers and SD sweepers without priority. I probably forgot something, but you get my point. It also serves as random scout/sponge/fast encore (which is awesome in general) and taunt etc. I´ve been using it as a lead because it prevents SR 100% of the time while being almost impossible to OHKO (EVs are balanced as a result of not having a stable metagame and knowledge of specific threats that need investment to be handled while hacing asmuch overall bulk as possible), allowing to switch out and come back in later to stop a sweeper or act as fodder (which is mentioned because it can possibly, depending on health left, encore a move, allowing you to easily force out the threat).
    Protect is just for some scouting and encoring to get harmless switch ins, while u turn is for scouting after you encored a support/set up move. No speed EVs because the only attackingmove is U-Turn, which in many cases is even better when it´s slow.

    This set has actually been tested and worked great.

    mind to explain how this has more staying power than ape?
  14. DrunkRaccoon

    DrunkRaccoon

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    If the Sturdy leads carry lefties that won't work.
  15. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

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    It would only work if you can outdamage Leftovers with a Fake Out on the first turn. Highly unlikely.
  16. Elliot Gale

    Elliot Gale

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    It can heal off any Life Orb recoil by U-turning out, and it also resists Stealth Rock making its return more or less unhindered.

    Obviously it's not going to be taking any significant hit - it's more frail than 'nape stat-wise. It's all in the ability.
  17. Ginku

    Ginku Farbenprächtig
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    Ah you meant that. I got confused by "staying" power.

    But yes, i can see that set working.
  18. JSND

    JSND

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    Who agree with me that Kojondo is one of the best new anti lead in the game ?
    With scarf it can be an effective and consistent anti lead that can revenge kill
    mant threats later in the game. It has 105 base speed and 125 attack IIRC
    Pretty much like Flygon(yeah i am saying that hes far superior than Flygon if not for
    Levitate but Kojondo have regeneration so who cares ?) since he has HJK too.
    Except for typing and better defense it outclass flygon in many ways.
    I think a dual leading with Kojondo + 1 Hazard user might work
  19. Wafflez

    Wafflez

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    Actually i dont think hes THAT good of a lead.He has what ever other fast powerful sweeper has.With a little bit of good coverage anythign can make a pretty well anti lead.Its just his ability that makes him stand out.
  20. Ginku

    Ginku Farbenprächtig
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    it´s more fake out + his good speed and attack that make him stand out, but thinking about it again, i would prefer infernape in pretty much every case. I´d even go that far and say it´s outclassed but i´m not sure about that (i started thinking when i started writing).
  21. Shimrit As

    Shimrit As

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    Sturdy leads aiming to get hazards up ASAP wouldn't be carrying Leftovers really. More likely Lum (Skarmory) or Custap (Forretress, Gigaiasu). Jibaku the set you posted looks really nifty, I would love to try it out.
  22. sax king

    sax king

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    Sableye@ Focus Sash
    Mischievious Heart
    EVs: 252 Atk 252 HP 4 Def
    Nature: Adamant

    Fake Out
    Taunt
    Metal Burst
    Trick/Toxic/Will-o-Wisp/Sucker Punch

    First turn, use fake out just to be annoying. Second turn, use priority taunt if you suspect that they are going to try to taunt you, set up, or do something else. If they look like they will attack, take the attack with your focus sash, then hit back with a super powerful Metal Burst. When they switch in a new pokemon, use taunt if you need to. If you don't need taunt, use priority trick to take away their item and keep it before you die (I'm not sure if trick works if you don't have an item). You can also use priority Toxic or Will-o-Wisp, although Wiss-o-Wisp is less reliable. STAB Sucker Punch can also be fun if you think that they will try to finish you off.


    goruggo@ leftovers/life orb
    Adamant/Impish
    252 HP/252 Atk/6 Def
    No Guard

    -Dynamic Punch
    -Earthquake/smooth over
    -Shadow Punch
    -Thief/Whatever

    Goruggo is a great anti-lead. Goruggo can abuse the no-guard dynamic punch combo, and he can do it quite well due to his high attack stat. Goruggo is also immune to fake out, explosion, and dynamic punch. Goruggo is 4x resistant to U-turn, which is found on many leads. Goruggo has considerable bulk and can survive a few hits as well. The only down side is the lack of physical ghost STAB to hit ghost switch ins. But STAB shadow punch coming rom a 124 attack stat is still going to really hurt ghost type switch ins. Dynamic punch and Shadow Punch have perfect coverage as well. For strong STAB, use Earthquake after the other lead is impaired. If you want a lead that functions somewhat like an icy wind lead, use smooth over to break their sash and then kill on the next turn. This may be unnecessary with Dynamic punch. Thief is another support move, but if you use it, you can't use an item. It's essentially a lesser Knock off, but it works well on a lead.


    Dasutodasu@ focus sash
    252 HP/252 Spe/4 Atk
    Jolly
    Broken Armor/Aftermath

    --Spikes
    --Toxic Spikes
    --Explosion
    --Gunk Shot

    A suicide lead, but it can lay down two important entry hazards as well as severely damage the opponent. Max speed to ensure that you can put down as many hazards as possible. If you've been taunted or you have enough hazards, you can use gunk shot for a powerful STAB attack or Explosion just to take down the opposing pokemon. It's abilities also really help it be a lead. Broken Armor works well with its sash. It lays down spikes while others break its sash, and the next turn you lay down more spikes with your raised speed. Aftermath also helps it damage the other lead. It works well on suicide leads, and especially those with explosion
  23. Forsety

    Forsety

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    Come to think of it, theres nothing to stop new anti-leads cropping up with the buffs to Magic Coat reflecting Spikes/SR/Taunt as well this gen. You might actually end up seeing new anti-leads cropping up this gen in Kecleon/Porygon2 and Musharna.

    I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that Red Card users may become very big this generation for leads, with that said Pory2 has the ability to Magic Coat and Recycle Red Cards.
  24. Niched

    Niched

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    When it comes to leads, I immediately think of zoroark. Since you see the whole team beforehand, just seeing Zoroark on your opponents team makes should make you immediately suspicious of any pokemon they lead. Any popular lead could actually be a Zoroark in disguise. For example, as stated earlier, you could have a non-lead aerodactyl and send in Zoroark to bluff a leaddactyl. I have found that this strategy works well both when you send out Zoroark and when you don't! The mere thought that this pokemon may not be what it seems to be means some great mindgames. Of course, don't try to bluff T-Tar, pressure pokemon, etc...
  25. UnholyCrab1

    UnholyCrab1

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    I'm seeing Sableye get a rise of fame. Not only does he get priority Taunt, but he can also priority WoW any Explosion leads.

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