Serious LGBTQ

[Minwu]

I just wanna point out that the firebot thread mentioned in here asked about entering a relationship with a transgendered person and not a sexual encounter and that I would think that a person's safety takes much higher precedence than the other person's dating expectations and just leave that whole thing at that, thanks

Would you agree that a society where everyone can be open and honest about their sexuality is better? Where LGBTQ people would feel safer opening up, and where people did not have to feel in any way ashamed of their sexual feelings? I think this way-- and not only about sexuality; I think the world would be a better place if people could all be more honest, and all be more forgiving with all aspect of our lives that are human, that are animal, that are not perfect or godly. That may not be the way it works, nor might it even be practical-- but I think it's an ideal to shoot for.

And yet, here you are belittling, demeaning, sneering at straight men for having open and honest expression about their own sexual desires; and you're not the only one-- I'm not sure why, but society feels it's ok for men who talk about women or sex to be labelled as "hound-dogs," "Depraved", "horny assholes," or what have you. It took me a long time growing up to realize it was "ok" to feel the way I do about women-- that it didn't make me gross, or evil, or a terrible person for having strong sexual urges; that was a huge part of my growing up in highschool. Yeah thanks modern media.

YOU might feel more apathetic to sex, but for those of us born full "straight male" and with strong sex drives, the urges, and "alphaness", the instincts we feel have a POWERFUL affect and influence on us-- and it's not something we can control or change about ourselves anymore than a straight woman, gay male, gay female, BT, asexual can change about their own sexualities. We are what evolution has made us.

So yes-- not for all, but for some men the drive to have sex just for sex is there, is wired into the DNA. Yes interest in women just because "they're hot" is also ingrained in there. And yes, being able to openly express feelings and frustrations born from those powerful instincts with other men who feel similarly in a safe environment or just openly can be fun, can make us feel good, and wow--

For someone to call that shameful, base, or "shit"-- I don't see how someone can say that and expect any sort of tolerance for their own sexuality.

Seriously, I'm all on-board letting people be people-- but wouldn't that be ridiculous if that sentiment is only meant for minorities?

Especially when in this case, a "majority" of "straight men" also gets the smear-campaign from standard media and sentiment.

I'm sorry because I don't know what sexual taboo you may have dealt with growing up but I'm going to have to make the assumption that Berserker Lord 's post was written under the context of the wider phenomenon of women being largely more sexualized than men, and that being their defining value in the eyes of a noticable portion of society at large, and with the belief that this is something wrong, harmful, and that needs to be tackled (both of which describe my alignment here as well). That random catcalling from strange guys on the street I'm sure you've heard of or can ask the women in your family about if you care, or any other form of casual sexual harassment that's been normalized generally coming from men. And sorry to say, but I don't believe at all that those kind of habits are justifiable by or inherent to "full-on" straight sexuality. Shit, my head is dirty as hell but every time I hear other guys say it's normal or okay to tread on people like an "alpha" I quiver and scream internally, sorry!

eta: Remember that thread where you said raising a daughter in society sounds scary? It's a little something like that!

Another thing that is a mix of both sad and funny is how vehemently some guys deny that they are gay when someone says they are.

-snip-

On the other hand, using "gay" as an insult isn't fucking okay either. ಠ_ಠ

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm sorry because I don't know what sexual taboo you may have dealt with growing up but I'm going to have to make the assumption that Berserker Lord 's post was written under the context of the wider phenomenon of women being largely more sexualized than men, and that being their defining value in the eyes of a noticable portion of society at large, and with the belief that this is something wrong, harmful, and that needs to be tackled (both of which describe my alignment here as well). That random catcalling from strange guys on the street I'm sure you've heard of or can ask the women in your family about if you care, or any other form of casual sexual harassment that's been normalized generally coming from men. And sorry to say, but I don't believe at all that .those kind of habits are justifiable by or inherent to "full-on" straight sexuality. Shit, my head is dirty as hell but every time I hear other guys say it's normal or okay to tread on people like an "alpha" I quiver and scream internally, sorry!

eta: Remember that thread where you said raising a daughter in society sounds scary? It's a little something like that!

The phenomenon I'm getting at is that it's getting harder and harder for men to be men (or rather for boys to become men) in a society where being openly sexual, aggressive, and masculine is constantly labeled as being insensitive, morally degraded, and undesirable by women. Of course there's lots of other media where the opposite is true, but for most educated boys, their heros are going to be characters in regular TV shows, and not WWE.

I grew up with the impression that girls desired a 100% sensitive, perfect gentlemen, overly-caring individual who fawned or played to their every desire-- and that they didn't want men who were assertive or sexual; and I wasn't the only one. For many of my male friends in highschool, the biggest and most traumatic stage in growing up was breaking through that timidness and build up presumptions spoon-fed to us (for better or worse) by modern media and realizing that real women were totally different than what you experience on the TV.

If I hadn't been in a wrestling team where "manliness" and aggression were fostered and had role models who pulled it out of me, I would have had a much harder time developing into a socially functional individual. And I fought it. I fought the culture and attitudes (especially of my upper classmen towards women) all the way through my sophomore year of highschool-- until a huge breakup with my girlfriend at the time (for frankly being too weak and unassertive), and growing tensions with my teammates made me realize that the more I fought it, the more "wrong" I felt, and the more contradiction I felt in myself.

It was only after I realized-- "fuck, what's wrong with being a fucking man?" and let myself say sexual things, make incredibly dirty jokes, and just laugh and be honest and natural with the other guys on the wrestling team did I feel a HUGE sense of RELIEF. That I okay being a MALE but also not being a terrible person.

And of course as I became more aggressive and assertive, my popularity with girls changed dramatically-- and I had the chance to date more women.

The ironic thing is that at the same time a lot of my non-wrestling friends who were still "not awakening" to what I "awakened" to now labeled me as a "play-boy", a "sex hound", etc. And yet, all of them were also constantly frustrated with the same inner-conflict along with plummeting self-esteem that was also tied to unpopularity with women (because guess what, a guy uncomfortable with being sexual sucks at the man-woman dating game). These guys would stay socially mal-adjusted for a long time, and only experience this "awakening" and "maturity" as men painfully in their 20's. Yeah guess who had to coach them through it.


Most ironic of all was that when I described all of these things to my Dad, he said:

"Oh wow... really? Your guys gen is... wow, that's screwy. That type of problem just wouldn't exist in my generation."

A generation ago, "nice guys finish last" wouldn't even be a cultural concept because the need for it wouldn't exist-- men were men. And this coming from my Dad, who was like the definition of NERD in highschool-- even he was more manly than most of my friends were growing up.

Of course the dynamic between men and women is a complicated one-- but I'm convinced that for healthy relations, we have to be aware of and understanding of the biological truth: That men need to be aggressive, and that without a degree of aggression from men, you can't have healthy men-women relationships. Violence or coercion is in no way condonable, but I'd say something like cat-calling is healthy, and even vital. Of course the real truth is that sensitivity AND a bit of manly-man are both needed from a guy in a good relationship (most of the time)-- striking that balance is a big challenge for every straight man.

You can think of it as serious or not as you will, but countries like Japan and Korea (where men have a REAL problem with being gutless, not out-spoken, and not aggressive), they're having a birth rate crisis-- one that's caused by a lot of other factors sure, but this one only aggravates it. True these cultures also have an issue with gender inequality, predjudice, and really insensitive men-- but the bigger complaint from Japanese women is that Japanese men are spineless and don't "come get it" even when it's obviously waiting for them. Gender inequality and insensitivity won't stop men and women from getting together and having kids (look at human history...), but spineless men who don't take initiative definitely will.

Or we could always realize that the Indians are genius for having an acceptable cultural precedent that it's ok if we side-step all this bullshit by having Parents decide mates for their kids. Not saying that arranged marriage is a good social norm or at all workable for western countries, but saying that I see the advantages.

There are consequences for raising boys who are "perfect gentlemen" who only know how to sit in their seats and follow the rules.

 

[Crux]

Or maybe you just need to recognise that maleness and masculinity are separate and don't follow from one another and that all of the concepts you see as being besieged probably should be besieged because they are incredibly normative at best and manifestly harmful at worst.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Or maybe you're just not getting it.

 

[Age of Kings]

lol you go on TRP way too much. I suppose your post calls for a rebuttal from a female perspective.

The phenomenon I'm getting at is that it's getting harder and harder for men to be men (or rather for boys to become men) in a society where being openly sexual, aggressive, and masculine is constantly labeled as being insensitive, morally degraded, and undesirable by women.

The problem isn't that masculinity is bad in of itself, it's that it's being redirected in bad ways. Does being masculine mean having to be insecure and objectifying women? Seeing women as nothing more than a vagina and a walking pair of tits has nothing to do with being "openly sexual" or expressing your preferences. That attitude carries on outside of friendly conversation with friends and into the real world whether you're conversing with women you have an interest in or not (which is in itself a bad dichotomy to make when you're interacting with human beings). Also, being openly sexual is taboo for women as well - I don't understand how you get the idea where this is a problem that only concerns men. You see the ideal of a successful man in TV shows and movies sleeping around with a ton of women (think James Bond, Indiana Jones, prolly others). If a women sleeps around, we reserve special words in our language for that - "whore", "slut", "bitch", etc. Women who sleep around in popular culture are generally evil and have that used against her. For instance, Cersei Lannister is incestuous, evil, and generally reviled. Her sexual habits actually have a lot to do with her character. I can't really think of many other examples since it's so rare to portray women as sexually prolific.

At the same time, a woman who isn't passive and has the gall to say no is considered "stuck up" and "uptight". You can look no further than the bossy thread for proof of those sentiments. It's a double-edged sword.

Wouldn't you think that it would improve the situation for both men and women if it were less taboo for women to engage in those things? It's shameful for women to be sexual period - that's definitely factoring into attitudes that you feel besieged by. There's the prevailing social attitude that women must be "protected" from the evil penis. At the same time, seeing women purely as a pair of tits or characterizing them only as "would bang/wouldn't bang" are harmful constructs.

I grew up with the impression that girls desired a 100% sensitive, perfect gentlemen, overly-caring individual who fawned or played to their every desire-- and that they didn't want men who were assertive or sexual; and I wasn't the only one.

Hey, guess what: women are people, and people have different preferences. Some women want what you described. Others don't. Stereotyping everyone is unhealthy. If your attitudes were shaped by high school, grow up.

It was only after I realized-- "fuck, what's wrong with being a fucking man?" and let myself say sexual things, make incredibly dirty jokes, and just laugh and be honest and natural with the other guys on the wrestling team did I feel a HUGE sense of RELIEF. That I okay being a MALE but also not being a terrible person.

No one said there's anything wrong with that. It's the problems that come with objectifying women and having those attitudes bleed in your treatment of others. Can you be masculine without objectifying women? Answer me instead of parroting the garbage that "baaaaaaah being a man means being this misogynist". The two are very much separate.

And of course as I became more aggressive and assertive, my popularity with girls changed dramatically-- and I had the chance to date more women.

lol this comes right out of TRP.

The ironic thing is that at the same time a lot of my non-wrestling friends who were still "not awakening" to what I "awakened" to now labeled me as a "play-boy", a "sex hound", etc. And yet, all of them were also constantly frustrated with the same inner-conflict along with plummeting self-esteem that was also tied to unpopularity with women (because guess what, a guy comfortable with being sexual sucks at the man-woman dating game). These guys would stay socially mal-adjusted for a long time, and only experience this "awakening" and "maturity" as men painfully in their 20's. Yeah guess who had to coach them through it.

Maybe the issue is objectifying men as well, only giving worth to them socially by the amount of women they fuck.

"Oh wow... really? Your guys gen is... wow, that's screwy. That type of problem just wouldn't exist in my generation."

A generation ago, "nice guys finish last" wouldn't even be a cultural concept because the need for it wouldn't exist-- men were men. And this coming from my Dad, who was like the definition of NERD in highschool-- even he was more manly than most of my friends were growing up.

Life was also objectively worse a generation ago as far as technology, crime, social attitudes, and almost everything else go.

The mantra, by healthy people, isn't "nice guys finish last", it's "be yourself".

Of course the dynamic between men and women is a complicated one-- but I'm convinced that for healthy relations, we have to be aware of and understanding of the biological truth: That men need to be aggressive, and that without a degree of aggression from men, you can't have healthy men-women relationships. Violence or coercion is in no way condonable, but I'd say something like cat-calling is healthy, and even vital. Of course the real truth is that sensitivity AND a bit of manly-man are both needed from a guy in a good relationship (most of the time)-- striking that balance is a big challenge for every man.

Women aren't aliens, as someone with almost all platonic friendships being with men I don't see how it can be complicated at all. I actually condemn this concept of the "gender tribes" - men and women being in their own separate spheres and they only interact to fuck. Seeing women as alien beings will ensure that the dialogue will never be healthy. Cat-calling isn't healthy, I love how you complain about the damaging cultural messages sent to men but think women being targets of unwanted attention is ok. You call it assertive, I call it being harassed and rightfully so because no one is here solely for your own gratification. Again, there is a difference between being masculine and being a douchebag.

Every man is different as well and the point you're missing is that quite a few men fail to strike that balance and some toxic attitudes are genuinely unhealthy.

Also, I'd like to hear what you think of women who are assertive or aggressive and men who are not, of their own volition.

You can think of it as serious or not as you will, but countries like Japan and Korea (where men have a REAL problem with being gutless, not out-spoken, and not aggressive), they're having a birth rate crisis-- one that's caused by a lot of other factors sure, but this one only aggravates it. True these cultures also have an issue with gender inequality, predjudice, and really insensitive men-- but the bigger complaint from Japanese women is that Japanese men are spineless and don't "come get it" even when it's obviously waiting for them.

Attributing it to one cause is fallacious. I would say the creepy cultural obsession with sexualizing little moe girls (because they have no wants or desires of their own unlike real women), the stalled economy, and aged Confucian values are all causes as well. What about the women who go to host clubs with the common complaint that men never listen to them? What about the fact that women are characterized as only caring about money and these stereotypes drive people away from the dating scene?

Truth is that birth rates are decreasing all over the industrialized world and for a number of causes. Birth rates are generally higher in poor regions and equated with low economic prosperity - among other things, strict enforcement of traditional gender roles. I don't think a "girly man" or "assertive woman" will fly in Niger, Mali, and Afghanistan (top 3 in birth rates) for instance, and look how well they're doing.

 

[Chou Toshio]

lol you go on TRP way too much. I suppose your post calls for a rebuttal from a female perspective.

What's TRP?

The problem isn't that masculinity is bad in of itself, it's that it's being redirected in bad ways. Does being masculine mean having to be insecure and objectifying women? Seeing women as nothing more than a vagina and a walking pair of tits has nothing to do with being "openly sexual" or expressing your preferences. That attitude carries on outside of friendly conversation with friends and into the real world whether you're conversing with women you have an interest in or not (which is in itself a bad dichotomy to make when you're interacting with human beings). Also, being openly sexual is taboo for women as well - I don't understand how you get the idea where this is a problem that only concerns men. You see the ideal of a successful man in TV shows and movies sleeping around with a ton of women (think James Bond, Indiana Jones, prolly others). If a women sleeps around, we reserve special words in our language for that - "whore", "slut", "bitch", etc. Women who sleep around in popular culture are generally evil and have that used against her. For instance, Cersei Lannister is incestuous, evil, and generally reviled. Her sexual habits actually have a lot to do with her character. I can't really think of many other examples since it's so rare to portray women as sexually prolific.

At the same time, a woman who isn't passive and has the gall to say no is considered "stuck up" and "uptight". You can look no further than the bossy thread for proof of those sentiments. It's a double-edged sword.

Wouldn't you think that it would improve the situation for both men and women if it were less taboo for women to engage in those things? It's shameful for women to be sexual period - that's definitely factoring into attitudes that you feel besieged by. There's the prevailing social attitude that women must be "protected" from the evil penis. At the same time, seeing women purely as a pair of tits or characterizing them only as "would bang/wouldn't bang" are harmful constructs.

When did I ever say it wasn't an issue that didn't concern both genders? When did I ever say there was an issue with aggressive women? When did I say women shouldn't also be free to be more sexually open or honest?

I think I've said EVERYWHERE that I'd be totally on board for more sexual freedom and honesty for EVERYONE-- every gender, every orientation, every person.

Did I ever say that there would be a problem with women objectifying men sexually? I wouldn't care less if they did. Even if a woman objectified me sexually, it wouldn't make me feel like I was seen as less-than-human; our bodies and existence as animals are a part of our being human.

People aren't perfect beings. This "objectifying" (and generalizations in genera) business is as natural, as it is unavoidable-- and I don't see a problem with it going in either direction as long as it doesn't result in real problems of prejudice

Attributing it to one cause is fallacious. I would say the creepy cultural obsession with sexualizing little moe girls (because they have no wants or desires of their own unlike real women), the stalled economy, and aged Confucian values are all causes as well. What about the women who go to host clubs with the common complaint that men never listen to them? What about the fact that women are characterized as only caring about money and these stereotypes drive people away from the dating scene?

Truth is that birth rates are decreasing all over the industrialized world and for a number of causes. Birth rates are generally higher in poor regions and equated with low economic prosperity - among other things, strict enforcement of traditional gender roles. I don't think a "girly man" or "assertive woman" will fly in Niger, Mali, and Afghanistan (top 3 in birth rates) for instance, and look how well they're doing.

You can think of it as serious or not as you will, but countries like Japan and Korea (where men have a REAL problem with being gutless, not out-spoken, and not aggressive), they're having a birth rate crisis-- one that's caused by a lot of other factors sure, but this one only aggravates it. True these cultures also have an issue with gender inequality, predjudice, and really insensitive men-- but the bigger complaint from Japanese women is that Japanese men are spineless and don't "come get it" even when it's obviously waiting for them. Gender inequality and insensitivity won't stop men and women from getting together and having kids (look at human history...), but spineless men who don't take initiative definitely will.

Jus' sayin'

 

[Shiny_Tyranitar]

Age of kings said everything I was thinking, just smarter. The idea of "maleness" and this "alpha-beta" dichotomy that some guys get on is just silly (not saying Chou in particular, but I've seen it here). The guys I find most attractive, and other women I talk to, aren't the ones who turn the macho up to 11, it's the one's who, like AoK said, are themselves. Say what you will about what girls refer to as eye-candy, but there is a certain something about a guy who is just laid back and doesn't seek to prove something to others--especially to women.

And, again, like AoK pointed out, cat calling and "friendly compliments" are harassment. And I can say this from experiencing both sides of the equation. Before being a girl, I never got the sheer number of random compliments I get now. So I in no way believe the narrative that they "friendly" or given to just anyone like some guys try to rationalize. The only compliments I got were from women, usually about my hair, which had an entirely different, friendlier, context. Now, it's the opposite. I can't go for a walk through the mall without some guy hitting on me. Or being cat called on my way to class. Or that one time someone stopped me in the middle of the road to tell me how good looking I was while oncoming traffic was approaching... The fact that only women put up with this, on such a regular basis, shows me that it does stem from social views of women, which are related to the masculinity Chou values. It's objectifying, it's harassing, and it's creepy. I know from being trans that this is one of those things guys don't understand--before coming out, I didn't. However, when a majority of women tell you it's not pleasant, I think it's a testament to different experiences between the genders.

And to kind of wrap this up, I may find athletic guys more attractive, but assertive--no. I think back to so many of those "friendly compliments" or cat calls and just think "what was wrong with him?" I can't think of one that I would've gone for, largely because I (and certainly other women) associate "assertiveness" with "he won't respect me if I tell him 'no.'" It just reeks of entitlement to sex and ignoring others' wishes. To the contrary, one guy I dated was a complete dork. Athletic, funny, very nice, but no confidence around women. I liked him because he said the right things at the right time. When he relaxed enough to just be himself, he was fun to be around. And to bring this back to the topic of the thread, when I came out to him, he stopped talking to me.

And I do blame having these experiences (boy meets girl, boy likes girl, girl likes boy, girl tells boy she's trans, it's over) on cultural views regarding transsexuality and masculinity. A trans-woman is not a "real woman," no matter how much a guy attracted to her or liked her as a person. Likewise, there is a stigma attached to men who date transsexuals. The view that "no, that's gay, I can't do that, I'm a man," I think just really keeps men in a self-policing role, and not just about dating trans-women. Being on that side of the fence in a past life, men don't talk about their feelings and are in a constant "arms' race" with one another to be the most "macho," which contributes a lot to male suicides and depression. In short, I don't think this "be a man" culture benefits society. Maybe a few individuals, but at the expense of women, less "masculine" men, and LGBTQ-folk (the purpose of this thread). Breaking from this self-policing mask of masculinity is personally the thing I find most attractive. I see a guy like that as being "more real" than the guys who try to impress others on a regular basis.

Which, in closing, I think this topic of masculinity and culture may be something to discuss, but I also think this thread risks being shut down because an impending back and forth tangential arguments. I don't want to play backseat mod, really, but I think maybe we should create another thread since I like this one.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Shiny_Tyranitar -- The problem for most men (in dealing with women) is that what women believe they want consciously, and what they respond to in practice are often completely different. I know that sounds absurd, but if you have dated women as a man you know it's true.

In other words, what girls say they want, and the guys they choose to date are often contradictory. Now, this is not a universal truth; and not true at all of my wife, who is the most open, frank, and honest person who will never hesitate to call out my bullshit-- she's kind of the exception to the rule (and that's why I married her-- because she was different and AMAZING compared to any woman I've met until now).

Of course being sensitive, smart, funny, natural are desirable things, but often they don't shine through without the confidence (almost self-assuredness) to carry them, and the assertiveness to initiate a relationship in the first place. Even as you date, women don't usually like (or respect) men who are absolute push-overs, and from what most women have both expressed and told me-- a guy who "takes the lead" and can "be the man" is something very desirable. There's nothing wrong with those women for responding in that way either.



Also getting at the transgender issue-- (oh that's right, this is the LGBTQ thread, sorry for the massive de-rail):

(boy meets girl, boy likes girl, girl likes boy, girl tells boy she's trans, it's over)

I'm not sure about men who feel "grossed out" or the cultural issue, or whatever-- but for myself, as my own life-decision, I don't think I could fall in love with a partner (transgender or not) with whom there was no chance of having children. The choice to have or not have children is a huge part in a person's life, and I think it's natural and completely acceptable that it be something that people desire, and that can make or break a romance for people.

Now that I've become a father to my first daughter, I believe this even more-- that she is the most meaningful and beautiful thing in my life, and I couldn't imagine a life for me where I didn't try my best to be a successful parent to my own genetic children. If I failed, I wouldn't be the first, but having succeeded in having this healthy and beautiful child, it is without question the most blessed thing for me in my life-- except maybe grandkids! For that too, I got to raise up a strong, intelligent, confident, independent and family-oriented young woman!

Every cultural issue aside, I think knowing about your partner in this regard and having the freedom to make this choice being well-informed is a right of every person in their own romance and happiness.

If I dated a girl who lied to me about that (forever-- don't have to come out from the get-go), I would feel betrayed. I think anyone would.



I can appreciate real threat of physical danger Jumpluff outlined in her post-- and I also understand (though probably cannot imagine fully) the pain that comes in the greater challenges for transgender people in finding love-- love that comes so hard to ALL people, even those who have everything going for them in terms of easily finding someone. But love without honesty can never be love-- and while that's a greater hurdle to tackle for transgendered people, it's one that won't be moved by deception.

 

[Shiny_Tyranitar]

As for "what women want" I think we should agree to disagree. Two women have told you to the contrary, and it appears you'll remain intransigent on this issue.

And also, I don't buy that "biological children" point. To me, everyone that makes it seems to make it as a "gotcha, (BAN ME PLEASE)s can't have kids, I'm off the hook, not a bigot" thing. Hypothetically, and I know this is a distressing scenario, your wife and daughter are in a car accident. Your daughter is killed, wife is seriously injured and can't have kids; would you divorce your wife? Likewise, while I'm offended that people get so caught up on something I see as trivial, I'm more offended as a woman than a trans-woman. It's rather telling that a guy likes you one minute, and then when he finds out vagina won't be involved, he loses interest. It shows that focus on women isn't about us as people, but on sex (which again goes to masculinity and objectification).

As for disclosure, like Jumpluff outlined, the burden shouldn't be on transsexuals to be open with just anyone. Before I started passing, I've had guys harass me and I was put in many situations where I felt unsafe. Last June, after I began passing, I met a guy and told him later that night after he made repeated attempts to get his hand into my jeans. He wound up getting extremely belligerent and aggressive, and, if not for a friend, I don't know what would have happened. There is no hard and fast rule for when the safest time to come out is, because as you said earlier in the thread, straight people aren't a homogenous group. For some, I should wear a T-shirt saying "bet you didn't know I'm trans." For others, before the first kiss. Of course some are like "it's whatever, you're cute." Then, there are some that are just mad because I exist. Thing is, there is no perfect time to just let anyone know. Therefore, while my rule is always before the first kiss, I'm not going to tell anyone else how to deal with this situation. If I'm not in a position to tell other transsexuals when to disclose, then no cis-person is in that position.

I feel like that's everything, I'm up way past my bedtime.

 

[Crux]

YO seriously can we make this thread a safe space? Like, the reason this thread exists and is at its best is when we are able to provide assistance to people who are facing LGBTIQ problems and talk about LGBTIQ issues. We don't need this thread getting spammed with conceptions of gender and sex that haven't been relevant since 1950 making it even more difficult for the people in this thread who never fit into those normative constructs anyway every few months. Can that be like, a moderation standard set for this thread if people agree?

If you want to talk about cis str8 problems and how hard it is for you to be sexually aggressive or something (HOLY FUCK DUDE WTF) go start a thread and entitle it WHY I LOVE ROBERT MENZIES AND RONALD REAGAN!!!!

 

[Chou Toshio]

As for "what women want" I think we should agree to disagree. Two women have told you to the contrary, and it appears you'll remain intransigent on this issue.

And also, I don't buy that "biological children" point. To me, everyone that makes it seems to make it as a "gotcha, (BAN ME PLEASE)s can't have kids, I'm off the hook, not a bigot" thing. Hypothetically, and I know this is a distressing scenario, your wife and daughter are in a car accident. Your daughter is killed, wife is seriously injured and can't have kids; would you divorce your wife? Likewise, while I'm offended that people get so caught up on something I see as trivial, I'm more offended as a woman than a trans-woman. It's rather telling that a guy likes you one minute, and then when he finds out vagina won't be involved, he loses interest. It shows that focus on women isn't about us as people, but on sex (which again goes to masculinity and objectification).

Two women? I'm sorry, was this in firebot?

Yeah, and to me, it seems entirely bigoted for you (or anyone) to assume there's "legitimate reasons" and "illegitimate" reasons for anyone to choose a partner/mate.

To me, choosing one in the hopes of having children is especially legitimate because it's a huge, and defining decision for many people. If you can't at least appreciate and respect that it matters to many people-- well wow.

That said, it doesn't matter if it's having children or anything else-- when you're choosing who your life partner will be, that decision belongs to you, and you alone, and not society, not armchair philosophy, not reason nor anyone else should have the right to tell you why you should or shouldn't choose a partner. It's your own choice, and one you'll live with your whole life.

THAT is at the heart of my Legal High 2 quote-- everyone is free to pick a partner for whatever reason (or lack of reason).

YO seriously can we make this thread a safe space? Like, the reason this thread exists and is at its best is when we are able to provide assistance to people who are facing LGBTIQ problems and talk about LGBTIQ issues. We don't need this thread getting spammed with conceptions of gender and sex that haven't been relevant since 1950 making it even more difficult for the people in this thread who never fit into those normative constructs anyway every few months. Can that be like, a moderation standard set for this thread if people agree?

If you want to talk about cis str8 problems and how hard it is for you to be sexually aggressive or something (HOLY FUCK DUDE WTF) go start a thread and entitle it WHY I LOVE ROBERT MENZIES AND RONALD REAGAN!!!!

A model of understanding, acceptance, and intellectual uprightness.


edit: Anyway, I came into this thread because Berserker Lord's earlier post offended me, and because I thought I could shed some insight that transcends gender and orientation boundaries. Berserker sent me a very appreciated apology message, and I feel I've said my peace.

Talk about safe or un-safe place, I got hounded for the most trivial points from the get-go. It's clear that any sense of reason is sliding away from the current discussion/topic-- so perhaps it's better dropped, and this thread go back to looking at individuals' experiences/issues.

[/derail] (I hope)

 

[CactusCacti]

I can appreciate real threat of physical danger Jumpluff outlined in her post-- and I also understand (though probably cannot imagine fully) the pain that comes in the greater challenges for transgender people in finding love-- love that comes so hard to ALL people, even those who have everything going for them in terms of easily finding someone. But love without honesty can never be love-- and while that's a greater hurdle to tackle for transgendered people, it's one that won't be moved by deception.

I'm just gona say this one thing and then drop out cause the last line bit bugs me, i hope i wont start anything with this tho.
when it comes to trans people, you really cannot call their gender related things in any sort of deception really. If they identify as a girl, it's not a lie to them if they say they are a girl if they really identify as a girl and are going for becoming the girl they are(and vica versa with female to male) and so if they hide their past of their biological gender, it's still bit so-so to call it deception. But this sort of issues are the kind that really depends on the relationship and the people in it really.
It's a bit of a sad thing tho it's kinda hard for many people to understand that trans people (Usually atleast) do not wish deceive anyone, they are who they are.
Tho if you didn't mean that with the deception then I guess I just wasted time and then I dont really know what you meant cause deception can be pretty much anything regardless of gender and so on with liers being liers.

Honesty is very important in all relationships. That is a point that cannot be denied. Knowing important things about your partner and your partner knowing important things about you is important if the relationship is really aiming to become the great oh great love.


And now im out.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Wow, okay, this thread is terrible.

Coming from someone who has recently identified as bisexual, the anti-heterosexual comments some posters have made in this thread are insanely hypocritical at best and extremely offensive at worst. If you can actually legitimately, non-ironically say shit like "straight men are shit," then you are just as bad as the bible-hugging homophobes. You are just as bigoted as they are.

But anyway, my recently-discovered bisexuality: I'm perfectly okay with it, to be honest. Honestly, I see it as "Who cares if I like women and men?". However, what I do see as problematic is coming out. I go to a very LGBTQ-friendly college so I have no problems coming out there, but it's at home where the real problems come into play. My mother is a religious right, extremely intolerant individual. My father is much more tolerant, but it will get through to my mother eventually, and she will give me shit about it. Then there's the rest of my family, who are also extremely intolerant and probably wouldn't like it.

But holy fuck, this thread and its anti-*insert sexual orientation here* comments... I don't care if someone's straight, gay, trans, bi, pansexual, white, black, asian, or purple, that shit has no place here, or anywhere.

 

[Ute]

I haven't been very vocal here recently, but I agree with LucaroarkZ. The vocal minority is a concept a lot of people choose to overlook. Just because a few extremists in a group are detestable individuals, doesn't mean that everyone (or even the Majority) who fall into that category are bad, but the extremists are the most noticeable and most fun to talk about so the respectable portions go ignored. Unfortunately I see this phenomenon extremely often.

eg. a terrorist organization crashes a plane, suddenly ever person appearing to be of middle eastern descent is targeted for being a terrorist. A Christian borderline Cult starts picketing funerals, suddenly every Christian is a raving bigot. Some adult males are found to be sexually abusing children (both male and female), suddenly all gay men are suspected to be pedophiles. The list goes on.

Just because your experiences with a certain type of person has been poor, doesn't mean that every individual that shares that category is like that. This is especially true for groups as massive as a those sharing a sexual orientation, those who share a sex or gender, those who share a skin tone, or even those who share a religion.

If you're going to hate on anybody target those who have committed wrongs in some form rather than those that have caused no intentional harm beyond existing.

 

[Woodchuck]

so guys brief interruption

are these actually for real or are they parodies? i can't tell.

 

[Squarewalker]

What I really hate is that society actively encourages males to be insecure about their masculinity and sexuality, including to be homophobic and transphobic. (see all the trans-related movies that involve everyone being heavily disgusted, and so on)

I myself am a lesbian trans woman and already got a girlfriend; however, despite not wanting to have anything to do with any men ever, simply by just existing, I can still be in very real physical danger if an insecure guy would get attracted to me (even if from distance, without me ever having seen them / ever having talked with them at all) and somehow found out that I'm trans. Merely by existing, due to people's socially encouraged extreme insecurity, I am at risk of physical violence. It's really fucked up and really fucking horrible beyond imagination.

 

[mattj]

Woodchuck

They're real. The Blaze has a story about them. The Bible most definitely does condemn homosexual acts, but that pastor is clearly mistaken. Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I can't think of anyone but that man who thinks that means stoning is still justified.

 

[tape]

i wouldnt mind getting stoned with jesus tho no homo

 

[junior]

oh my god at Chou completely steretyping relationships, gender and gender roles and not even realising this is where inequality and discrimination against women and lgbtq stems from. and it seems that you reinvented yourself to fit these stereotypes as well, which by your definition makes you less of a man because where is your confidence and assertiveness to just be yourself rather than a mindless media drone? congratulations.

and besides, haven't you made homophobic remarks and posts before? and now again with your transphobic comments? you need to leave and educate yourself

 

[Chou Toshio]

oh my god at Chou completely steretyping relationships, gender and gender roles and not even realising this is where inequality and discrimination against women and lgbtq stems from.

If I stereo-typed relationships, I will say that wasn't my attention. I was just re-capping on personal experience, and I don't believe my experiences with relationships and women are at all unique. I have seen many people go through the same, and also express similar experiences and views.

I never intended anything I said to be taken as universal truth-- and all people are different. I simply wanted to honestly explain my own perspective and experiences.

and it seems that you reinvented yourself to fit these stereotypes as well, which by your definition makes you less of a man because where is your confidence and assertiveness to just be yourself rather than a mindless media drone? congratulations.

If you read my post, you will-- well, first notice that I didn't give any definition of being a man. Second, I didn't re-invent myself; if you read, you'll understand that it is a story of self-discovery-- I came to accept things about myself, and to embrace what was always there instead of being ashamed of it and continuously trying to ignore it.

I thought about it a lot, and learned from people who had things to teach me. I don't think that makes me mindless.

and besides, haven't you made homophobic remarks and posts before? and now again with your transphobic comments? you need to leave and educate yourself

In this last series of posts, I have tried to make posts that were thoughtful, and well thought-out. I have tried to express my perspective and values so that people who share a similar perspective and values can be respected. I have tried to make posts with an open mind for allowing everyone to be as they want to be, and to foster mutual respect.

Your post was very hurtful to me. I will leave it at that.




I'd like to finish with an idea from the end of legal high-- People are imperfect, and there is an "ugliness" inherent to people; they will never be the ideal you wish them to be. However, the key to changing the world is not believing that you know better than everyone else, and imposing your views on others. If you're serious about changing the world and changing people--

"First, you have to start from loving human ugliness." And accepting that which you see in yourself.

 

[Aldaron]

i love it when junior gets angry

/me pet chou

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I don't know about the sexual end, but I am understanding of Chou's sentiment believe it or not.

In all of this its often easy to forget that being an normal straight cis person is like a thing, that's perfectly fine. I remember when I was questioning, for the longest time I thought aggressive males were just stupid jocks. I tried to deconstruct them and all their thought processes and see them as just stupid morons. While there are certain aspects of the bro-culture which are just moronic, over time I met other intelligent males who shared some of these very same views, and it challenged my poor deconstruction of males.

I distinctly remember that in one of first meditation about all of this, that I wasn't opposed to it because it was wrong, but because it simply was not my way of thinking.

Now there are a few things Chou said about us 'lying' in relationships that's just off, but I honestly don't know enough about relationships to make an intelligent commentary.

 

[Woodchuck]

The ideal solution to the "lying" conundrum is to require everyone in bars to print pictures of their crotches on t-shirts. Ah, social clarity.


Added bonus: this would make EeveeTrainer's survey a whole lot easier.

 

[michael]

so guys brief interruption

are these actually for real or are they parodies? i can't tell.

james david manning seems like a nice guy

 

[Th!nkPi]

Hello! I suppose I identify with this thread. I'm pansexual (and pangender/genderqueer) and I'm not partial to any specific genders. However, I thought I was straight until I was 19 years old! It took weeks of introspection and "Would I...?" to realize I was just sexually complicated.

Anywho, I'd like to gush a little here about a recent experience at Anime Boston this past week, as well as ask a question. Though I've come to terms with my sexuality over 2 years now I hadn't actually made a connection with a guy. I was able to meet a stranger and make a connection, and I made a friend at the con. I ended up flirting with him over the weekend! It was a big step for me. I was at the con with a friend I've known since middle school but that was the first time he saw me act that way with a guy as well, and it felt like a big step to feel comfortable in my skin around people who knew me from long before I came out.

Which brings me to my question for the LGTBQ people here! Do any of you have friends you made from before you came out that you still feel weird about being yourself around? Terrible wording, I know. But in my case, I have friends from when I thought I only liked women, and now that I know I like people I still feel shy around being comfy with guys when I'm around old friends who haven't seen it or aren't used to it. Rather, I'm not used to being that way around them I'd say ^^