Serious LGBTQ

[TheValkyries]

Wait, sooooo what? You came in here to police what can or should be considered offensive to people and then immediately back off because you don't understand the explanation or just any idea what you're talking about in general? Like I mean I get that maybe "you're just trying to understand" but god damn make a fucking effort then. At least make it seem like you give a shit about whether things are hurtful rather than trying to evaluate whether people are allowed to be upset by your standards.

 

[Aldaron]

what?

she asked "is something as silly as genderfucked really on the level that it can be considered a slur?" (note that is a question and therefore no policing) and "i really don't get where you're coming from with this, but i think that's just me not understanding that kind of thing in general, lol." (note that is stating ignorance of a perspective, again, by no definition of policing is that policing).

Where did she police anything? She asked a question, got an answer she didn't understand, and stated that. She also didn't evaluate anything.

She asked a question and got an answer she didn't get and acknowledged that. No where is that any attempt to police or evaluate anything.

Was it actually her usage of the "silly" word what set you off into both accusing her of policing and evaluating offensiveness? Because for someone who has used the "comon you know what the intent was there" phrase as many times as you do basically in every conversation...I'm just going to assume you're trying your best to be a bad troll here.

 

[Pharmasynth]

i really don't get where you're coming from with this, but i think that's just me not understanding that kind of thing in general, lol.

Well, what exactly do you not understand? Was it Minwu's explanation or was it how "something silly as genderfucked" can be found offensive?

I've actually never heard of the term "genderfucked" until Minwu brought it up, but I can see how it can be very offensive. To me, the term implies that an individual is confused or unsure of what their gender is, and that's the last thing anyone that doesn't identify as cis wants to hear. Me being a cis gay man, I'm obviously not going to be offended by the term. And, there are probably non-cis individuals that would also not be offended by the term. But, there are definitely other individuals out there that will be very offended by the word given the implication of the term and the individual's sensitivity and experiences.

Hopefully that adds to your understanding. Because, as Aldaron just pointed out, I don't think you're policing anything at all, either.

 

[Exeggutor]

Wait, sooooo what? You came in here to police what can or should be considered offensive to people and then immediately back off because you don't understand the explanation or just any idea what you're talking about in general? Like I mean I get that maybe "you're just trying to understand" but god damn make a fucking effort then. At least make it seem like you give a shit about whether things are hurtful rather than trying to evaluate whether people are allowed to be upset by your standards.

this is not the first time you've suddenly put up a wall of hostility in response to me saying that i don't understand something. i acknowledged that i don't understand and that i probably wouldn't considering who and how i am - is there a problem with that?
if you want to know why i think it is so silly: it doesn't seem like the kind of thing anyone says to insult. it doesn't seem like anywhere near a slur to me. it sounds like the kind of thing someone would jokingly say if they were parodying their own confused feelings on gender - and that's how i've seen it used, mind you - if that clears it up for you. it doesn't seem on par with anyone casually calling out the name of a bundle of sticks or a more than undesirable word for a black person. it seems insulting to even consider it anywhere near that level. when i saw what minwu said initially, it seemed like a big overreaction to someone who, in the limited context i was given, was joking around. they could have intended it maliciously and meant to offend, for all i know, but that's what i gathered from it. i am in no way "policing" how you feel about language.

and since this isn't the first time this has happened, i'll say this to you (i believe i've said it before): approaching people with hostility when they don't understand things you're talking about isn't helping you. it makes you look like an asshole and makes people less likely to want to listen.

 

[TheValkyries]

See that's exactly the thing: there is a difference in attempting to understand a differing point of view or perspective in genuine respectful solidarity, and then there is you calling into question someone's entire perspective in a culture that already dominantly subdues and questions their views and existence. How tone deaf do you have to be to not see that questioning the validity of point of view and then immediately following claim to be respectful of their point of view and just trying to understand. You have clearly already passed your own judgment and its flowing through your language and attempting to control and hem the people you're asking into questioning whether their feelings are justifiable.

And yes, people have a lot of internalized oppression and will self-referentially say damaging things about themselves all the time. I'm sure you've run across this in some form or another "I'm the fucking worst", but in this case the sentiment expressed is much more virulent and an attack on their identity and personhood. People in that situation are effectively saying their own identity is a punchline to a joke, and you are honestly going to use that as evidence for "well maybe it is okay to make fun of them, they do it too"? Maybe they can find the humor in that on some level, but your default response shouldn't be "Oh then now I can feel easier about my mean spiritness towards their person."

And "considering who and how you are" I honestly don't have the foggiest clue who and how you are. I do know that you've twice tried to pass off sinister passive aggression as just coy questions, so maybe my hostility is blatant and off-putting but sorry if I'm not really aiming to convince someone who is uninterested in actually listening in the first place. My focus here is making sure you know it's not okay to act the way you're acting, not to give you a singular crash course in all the things you don't know.

 

[dhelmise]

See that's exactly the thing: there is a difference in attempting to understand a differing point of view or perspective in genuine respectful solidarity, and then there is you calling into question someone's entire perspective in a culture that already dominantly subdues and questions their views and existence. How tone deaf do you have to be to not see that questioning the validity of point of view and then immediately following claim to be respectful of their point of view and just trying to understand. You have clearly already passed your own judgment and its flowing through your language and attempting to control and hem the people you're asking into questioning whether their feelings are justifiable.

And yes, people have a lot of internalized oppression and will self-referentially say damaging things about themselves all the time. I'm sure you've run across this in some form or another "I'm the fucking worst", but in this case the sentiment expressed is much more virulent and an attack on their identity and personhood. People in that situation are effectively saying their own identity is a punchline to a joke, and you are honestly going to use that as evidence for "well maybe it is okay to make fun of them, they do it too"? Maybe they can find the humor in that on some level, but your default response shouldn't be "Oh then now I can feel easier about my mean spiritness towards their person."

And "considering who and how you are" I honestly don't have the foggiest clue who and how you are. I do know that you've twice tried to pass off sinister passive aggression as just coy questions, so maybe my hostility is blatant and off-putting but sorry if I'm not really aiming to convince someone who is uninterested in actually listening in the first place. My focus here is making sure you know it's not okay to act the way you're acting, not to give you a singular crash course in all the things you don't know.

I honestly have no idea why you're calling Exeggutor tone deaf when she just explained her point of view to you clearly and you still are refusing to understand. What you're implying here is that nobody can understand if something is a slur, albeit a LGBTQIA+ slur, unless they are in fact a part of the LGBT community (from what I'm understanding, that is). You literally stated it in your first paragraph; all she's trying to do is understand how "genderfucked" is seen as a slur and not a meaningless phrase people say to jokingly insult their friends. She's allowed to have her perspective, and you don't need to be an opinionated, condescending prick just because she has one that is different from yours. I don't even see "genderfucked" as a harsh slur. Yes, if used in the right context, it can be very rude. However, that's not what she's seeing it as. Exeggutor even STATED her view on the slur and her reasoning as to why she doesn't see it as a slur. You shouldn't be forcing your opinions onto her, and you don't even have the authority to tell her that she's wrong.

In no way was Exeggutor implying that it's okay to make fun of people that call themselves or others insulting slurs in a non-serious manner. She was just saying that the phrase just seemed like so, and that it didn't seem as bad as the respective slurs for gays and black people.

One last thing. You, of all people, are saying that Exeggutor's actions are unacceptable, when all she's doing is trying to understand the community more? No. That statement of yours is completely false. You're the one giving off an unnecessarily harsh attitude. You're the one showing inappropriate behavior just because someone wants to understand the LGBT community more. You're the one insulting any poster in this thread for only God knows why. I posted in this thread originally because I thought it was a safe place for people to show themselves and not feel all bottled up. Your attitude in your posts towards Exeggutor and others are the types of posts that made me hesitant to post in here at first. Like Exeggutor said, "and since this isn't the first time this has happened, i'll say this to you (i believe i've said it before): approaching people with hostility when they don't understand things you're talking about isn't helping you. it makes you look like an asshole and makes people less likely to want to listen."

Just my thoughts~

 

[jumpluff]

There are nonbinary people in this thread. 'genderfucked' people so to speak. Hi! This is the height of disingenuity, it's one thing to ask a question and it's another thing to ask a person who expressed having harm done to them by such a word why it's offensive and then reiterate that it's unfathomable to not be understood. If Exeggutor did not mean to delegitimise Minwus feelings I'm sure she is sorry for having done so, and I don't want to focus on her first post. That being said it'd be nice if people would try further to understand the effects of words, unintentional or intentional and I believe since she appears to have asked the question in good faith she would surely appreciate an explanation. Of course I am not Minwu, whose reaction is theirs entirely and I support them unconditionally, but I hope I can offer clarity.

So rather than speak over Minwu I am just going to offer my own feelings, which is that I would not like the word applied to me, I accept multiple terms to describe various facets of my gender identity (nonbinary, nb, genderfluid, transgender, trans, queer), I certainly don't accept words which I perceive as insults (and from most people it would absolutely be implying something was wrong with my gender for not fully being encompassed by a binary, or for falling outside cis norms—it is intended to emphasise the alienation that brings as a deviation). And it does matter that my feelings are respected on the matter and I am afforded respect on my gender especially given that I have much less freedom and space to express it safely than most.

Furthermore I want to explain that it is alienating, even if unintended, to come in and ask a question of someone who is seeking to make themselves understood in an ostensibly sympathetic space (especially given that Minwu was talking about a time where they went to a queer group and met with unsympathetic treatment!), then respond to the answer with a flat disengagement, lack of sympathy, and claim not to be able to understand. Eggy acknowledged her own biases impede her understanding, but she should, I think, be sympathetic to the general experience ofhow it feels to go to a space and be insulted or have terms you do not like used thrown at you—and that the term is intended negative in the general context should with some reflection be able to grasp. So I guess if you want to build solidarity, please try to understand, and realise that as a cis person you reiterating that a queer persons feelings are not fathomable is alienating, makes it hard to feel like it's okay to speak up when the majority will dismiss your experience, etc., and its important to try and avoid that when talking to anyone really.

However Eggy then doubled down on reiterating that the feeling is not worth having, and responding to false equivalences nobody made. No one said genderfucked was on par with the n-slur or the f-slur. That doesn't make it okay. This is an LGBTQ thread, not an LGBTQ petting zoo, kindly keep that to yourself—even if I can't get you to agree I do hope you can se the harm now. If you have an issue with Valk take it elsewhere rather than further demean Minwu. And fwiw the time you're referring to where you interacted with him, you were defending someone on irc who was intentionally and in full knowledge misgendering me in hopes I'd get upset and Keith stuck up for me because he understood better than you why there was a reason to be hostile, so you might want to think about how you dismiss abuse levied at trans people before coming into this thread and spouting off, we get cis people's 2c daily and are told to just tolerate it instead of you all just educating yourselves.

And I love educating people and am happy to do it but when we do we get told off for having feelings instead of apologised to for offence the way you would want done to you if someone offended or marginalised you, I see no reason to condone that when there is no gain to be made, so: If you're asking from a majority standpoint about someone's personal experiences, please consider the power over the conversation you hold and the need to be sensitive to them and that your own experiences cloud your views, the same way you think it's important we are always sensitive to those who attack us. You lashed out in your defensive, it's something to keep in mind. If you reach out to be educated, open your mind and listen; you'd already failed to do this before Valk said anything and your response to him was utterly disrespectful to Minwu in the process. which shows you weren't really super inclined to listen and at least understand where they were coming from, even to non hostile answers.

Otherwise all you're doing is asserting a majority take we already deal with constantly from a position where most people will take your side just because you are cis and have stock standard opinions coming from your 'default' predisposition to not understand, and framed your question innocuously, without considering how we might feel, and that is the truth of it, and something you must be responsible for when opening discourse. Akash didn't feel the same way we did but was perfectly nice and sympathetic about it, for example.

And no Valks firmness in the face of your first post was not unwarranted and I felt the same upon reading it. And you can express that you don't like someone's tone without shitting on their ideas or identities, so no his correcting you is not remotely equivalent to you making anyone in this thread unhappy over an existing source of harm from the public, our transnsss.

And Rhythms, nonbinary trans people have as much claim on this space as anyone else does. Im really sorry this thread was intimidating to you, on top of the intimidation you may have felt in making your post (and I'm glad to have you here and expressing your thoughts!), and I hope we can resolve the argument peacefully. But please consider how it feels for some of us: It makes me feel unsafe to post on this site and in this thread knowing ppl intentionally use this knowledge to make insults out of misgendering me or my nonbinary identity, it makes me feel unsafe to come in this thread and see my friends and myself insulted for expressing dislike of a term that is used to insult us specifically. I can't speak for Minwu but as a 'genderfucked' person I appreciated being supported by at least one person and feel my views were accurately defended. Trans ppl talking among ourselves is one thing and I don't have any problem with theAkash e.g. having personal preference. But that's bc she's (hey ada sorry I use they as a default third person pronoun and missed your intro post so wasn't sure off the top of my head what gender, sorry I messed up in the original version,;-; welcome to the thread btw! <3) not telling people it'd be okay to call me shit that I find transphobic or that I can't dislike the term especially in reference to myself—it's a personal preference. Neither would I say she should react vehemently to that descriptor, it's cool for her that she is relaxed about it.

Similarly (Exeggutor too since this addresses a comment you made and might help clarify) some people might even use terms like genderfucked as a self identification which is up to them. In that case it might be something positive or recontextualised for them. I know a bunch of people use terms like genderweird even (which I would not react to so negatively, I say that to express I don't see it as the same, but still wouldn't enjoy), they like to emphasise that aspect of their gender as it pertains to cisnormativity in such a way. But they might have mixed feelings on whether it should be used to describe them even or in what contexts because not all are the same. It's a self preference but it's understood in the context it's insulting to use on those who do not welcome it. I don't think that applies to the hard n-slur for example, context matters, but similarly trans people saying a negatively semiotic word that affects them is generally a bit different and an internal matter from a cis person throwing it around. I think Valk summed up why very eloquently.

And fwiw I think it's p uncool for trans people to levy potentially offensive words at other trans people or expose them to e.g. the t or f slur without mutual understanding, no not everyone knows that word might be offensive although it seems quite clear to me it could be, but it should be okay to express that you do not like it without being insulted further or pressured not to make a fuss, otherwise its just shitting on people without regard to their feelings about it.

Basically what I'm saying is Minwu should be allowed to use this thread to talk about their experience with the word without being made to feel isolated, as should I and as should akash and so should you etc. To have people come in here and insult them for their reaction as well as just imply it's not understandable is alienating and isolating. It definitely is for me as a person who feels similarly to Minwu. When people post in here it's usually because they want to talk in an LGBTQ space where they feel understood or at least able to explain without fear of judgment or having their problems being belittled by unsympathetic outsiders. It feels really shitty and like we're expected to shut up for not liking something a cis person is doing to us, in an LGBTQ space. Being silenced isn't great either.

Finally, I don't want to make any assumptions but if you're cis, you're not helping by doubling down on the trans people itt, though you're of course entitled and welcome to talk about how the discourse is affecting you so thank you for that. There aren't many straight people in this page but there are a lot of cis opinions and very few trans people speaking up and I know for a fact having dealt with many trans friends who have left this site due to how trans people are generally treated here that the environment is rarely conducive for us to do so. I've given up on being respected by this community, I care more about being out and healthy (which has led me to leave this place for long stretches of time). Other trans people do feel uncomfortable speaking up when they see posts like Aldaron's and just leave. How do I know? I talk to multiple outside of this website.

That being said I do really deeply take to heart what you said about the hostility, I don't think it makes it safe. And I'm super sorry about that and hope this post can help everyone settle? I really hope I have not said anything hurtful to you Rhythms or made you feel intimidated by the length or passion of my post, and if I have not sufficiently alleviated if I hope to make amends. But I think we should be able to react honestly within this space especially if cis people come in and insult us (and if Eggys insult was not intended, Aldarons was explicit and an unnecessary stirring up of conflict that should have been resolved within this community and made it worse for at least two people ITT including myself).

Rhythms: Also I'm really sorry our first interaction was like this, I read your post recently but was too unwell to respond—I know I found it very difficult to be out when I was younger (and many people still think I'm straight offline by assumption) and sympathised very deeply, and was heartened and glad to see you have support at least online and felt safe in coming out here. Coming out online helped a lot in my coming out as not straight (I am closeted as a trans person offline) to my family and friends offline.

It would've been nice to post to the new people in this thread but I'm away and came back to this thanks to interference so lol. Actually I wanted to talk about the whole not coming out thing but yknow people needed to come in and stir shit up and make it needlessly aggro so hopefully we can just stop and get on with talking! I'll post to everyone else when I'm home or sth, hi to our new members! :3

(P.S. Aldaron the trans and queer community can discuss this among itself perfectly ok, it's unhelpful at best to come in and aggressively dismiss trans people and to centre the conversation around TheValkyries and in the process add more weight to the dismissal of Minwu, Eggy spoke for herself and if we are to take her in good faith I assure you we have every reason to take Keith in good faith and I am grateful he spoke on the matter, whether you are privy to the context or not.) I would likely not have been so conciliatory had he not expressed so succinctly both his and my thoughts and emotions previously.

Also thanks for trying to understand both sides and your position in the matter Pharmasynth! I missed your post but I appreciated it and it's certainly more succinct than mine

Also do consider vocal and angry queer people's voices and actions have been pivotal in gaining attention, awareness, and raiding consciousness in tandem with those of us who have more patience for outreach—what trans and gay rights exist in the USA were catalysed by a riot and only the mixed approach could give moderate voices any force or contrast to appear moderate against.

I really don't want the thread to be further derailed so I'm happy to explain stuff to people or talk it out in PM when I have Internet access and if anyone wants to talk about being trans or questioning or anything in between I promise I don't bite like this normally and have lots of love to give, just I am away for a week rn with sporadic access and time

 

[jumpluff]

yeah, it's not necessarily as harmful as a slur (depending on the person and situation, that is) but it's definitely an assholish term to use. i personally wouldn't mind "genderfucked" in most situations, but i'm pretty resilient when it comes to such things; i can think of some people who would have issues with it.

and you've also pinpointed the reason i dodge GSA circles most of the time (aside from living in the bible belt; there are maybe half a dozen of them in the state anyways). damned by faint praise; yes, i've better odds of finding non-transphobic people there than most other places, but it's easier imo to stick to close friends than to out myself to dozens of people and hope it goes well.

same tbh, I have admittedly unusual political views and have cultivated a mostly gsa social circle online since online I think some of us stick together a bit more when aligned by other interests or politics, but I've avoided general spaces mostly due to being trans and mixed poc, good odds of running into both transphobia and racism sadly. Most of my cis and straight friends have proven over and over their friendship by supporting me and extending solidarity and proactively trying to understand and make me feel ok to speak up, and I do know the close friends I have now will do me the justice of listening at the very least, so it's easier to stick to an automatically at least friendly circle for me. The ones that didn't, I guess it didn't work out. I'm fortunate to have them

Sorry to hear the place you live is so aggressively exclusionary/unsafe btw :( I live in a small and very conservative rural town so yeah lol, not quite Bible Belt but not a safe place to be out.

Whoops double post someone feel free to merge, just I lack access to a computer

 

[Exeggutor]

See that's exactly the thing: there is a difference in attempting to understand a differing point of view or perspective in genuine respectful solidarity, and then there is you calling into question someone's entire perspective in a culture that already dominantly subdues and questions their views and existence. How tone deaf do you have to be to not see that questioning the validity of point of view and then immediately following claim to be respectful of their point of view and just trying to understand. You have clearly already passed your own judgment and its flowing through your language and attempting to control and hem the people you're asking into questioning whether their feelings are justifiable.

And yes, people have a lot of internalized oppression and will self-referentially say damaging things about themselves all the time. I'm sure you've run across this in some form or another "I'm the fucking worst", but in this case the sentiment expressed is much more virulent and an attack on their identity and personhood. People in that situation are effectively saying their own identity is a punchline to a joke, and you are honestly going to use that as evidence for "well maybe it is okay to make fun of them, they do it too"? Maybe they can find the humor in that on some level, but your default response shouldn't be "Oh then now I can feel easier about my mean spiritness towards their person."

And "considering who and how you are" I honestly don't have the foggiest clue who and how you are. I do know that you've twice tried to pass off sinister passive aggression as just coy questions, so maybe my hostility is blatant and off-putting but sorry if I'm not really aiming to convince someone who is uninterested in actually listening in the first place. My focus here is making sure you know it's not okay to act the way you're acting, not to give you a singular crash course in all the things you don't know.

alright. what i'm getting from this is that you're saying
1. i am tone-deaf and policing how others feel,
2. self-referential humour is self-deprecating and use of genderfucked is making fun of people,
3. attempts at understanding the community i'm a part of are sinister and passive-aggressive.

i am genuinely interested. i expressed frustration towards you after you acted with hostility towards me, stated how i felt with that frustration (which probably wasn't the best idea), and i got nothing but hostility and "i'm not going to educate you" back. i sure do feel welcome.

in a quick response to jumpluff
i never came in here to insult how they felt about it. i came in here unsure of how it worked and expressed that i probably couldn't relate to it or properly understand but intended to leave the discussion there just knowing how i and they felt. instead i got told i'm being passive-aggressive when i intended to not have a hostile discussion and figured it was better to leave discussion where it was with my own self-reflection. i did not mean for it come across as me telling anyone off. i did not intend to "dismiss abuse" or insult people.

our first interaction was not me coming in to defend anyone because i honestly did not care about what was going on on either side of that debate - i did want to see what people in there thought about that kind of thing. i joined and tried to understand the POV of people in there and was welcomed with the same hostility because me struggling to understand every view is apparently passive-aggression and willing ignorance. i've talked about my views on the whole "angry queer people's voices" thing already: i don't think it's necessary in the majority of western countries today.

it's whatever, though. i'll leave this thread alone.

 

[jumpluff]

Okay cool I don't know what your opinions on queer activism are since I was not fully present for whatever you're alluding to it seems, but given the absurd rates of homeless trans youth and poverty, suicide, hate crime, discrimination p much everywhere, institutional misgendering and travel and medical problems that arise as a result, the terrible treatment of trans women in police custody, inability to access hormones surgery etc. if wanted and good gender therapists, mental health problems, all kinds of abuse and family disowning, let alone the condition many cis queer people are in, I assure you on good authority that there is a very urgent problem that is not being addressed via politeness and the slowness of reformism to address even the slightest of these problems is with disregard to the deaths and suffering of trans people now, who may wait fifty years for even tiny advances (the cis queer community even now despite Western activism for centuries has a long way to go) and who have lives they want to enjoy fully now while it is here, which itself is sufficient reason to be put out occasionally. Shortly put, and speaking as an activist (yes, I can be professional)—your belief is ahistorical given that most civil rights movements have only made progress in such a fashion, and this continues to be the case.

Since you dealt only with my commentary on your intention, wherein I largely gave you the benefit of the doubt, continued to argue at me about TheValkyries as if I were his owner or something, and ignored everything I said about the effect of your speech despite intent in a sincere effort to show that whether you meant well or not there were consequences you might not have understood (inferred from your doing the exact thing I expressed was hurtful again just then), I do agree I can't have this conversation with you anymore simply because we are repeating ourselves, though I am happy to talk to you about it or any other such issue again with no hard feelings, should you feel comfortable and be so inclined. It is pretty outrageous to tell me after literally four people in this thread tried to help you that nobody tried to educate you. I can't answer to whether we made you feel welcome or not and I'm sorry that you didn't, but I'm sorrier for those you made feel unwelcome.

 

[Aldaron]

and if Eggys insult was not intended, Aldarons was explicit and an unnecessary stirring up of conflict that should have been resolved within this community and made it worse for at least two people ITT including myself).

What are you on about here? _Everyone_ I spoke to, INCLUDING some lgbtq members in THIS community, said they thought thevalkyries post was uncalled for. It's great you and whoever you talk to believe that me coming in and defending a member of the community against an unwarranted attack was "explicit and unnecessary stirring of conflict", but I will defend people I feel are unfairly attacked everytime. I love how you write an entire tl;dr theorymon style post about feeling safe and seeing the other perspective and you go out of your way to try and insinuate a post DEFENDING a member of this community is "unnecessary stirring up of conflict."

First of all, the complete dismissal here is particularly hypocritical given the seeming intent of your post. But even if I were to ignore that, there is literally no objective individual who would claim thevalkyries' post was appropriate tone wise (even if he was justified content wise), and therefore there is no objective reason to feel a leader of the site is "unnecessarily" stirring anything up by responding to it. I could have deleted and infracted him (and I had support to do so), but I chose instead to give a chance to explain himself in a less hostile tone, and he did.

Guess what? Even if you thought thevalkyries' post was justified in its intent, THAT WAS THE ONE that "stirred up conflict" and DEFINITELY unnecessarily. The intent / content of the post may have been justified, but guess what, you have to say it the right way. That is how it works.

You seem to brush off the tone of his post just because you agreed with his intent...that's not how it works? If you're going to call out my post of all posts for stirring up conflict at least have the even single iota of decency to keep the expectations the same for both sides. If my DEFENDING of exeggutor's intent is stirring up conflict, how exactly is thevalkyries' tone not far worse (especially because it was first)?

P.S. Aldaron the trans and queer community can discuss this among itself perfectly ok, it's unhelpful at best to come in and aggressively dismiss trans people and to centre the conversation around TheValkyries and in the process add more weight to the dismissal of Minwu, Eggy spoke for herself and if we are to take her in good faith I assure you we have every reason to take Keith in good faith and I am grateful he spoke on the matter, whether you are privy to the context or not.)

How about you don't assume intentions or how conversations are centered on anything? If a post is unwarranted and uncalled for and borderline attacking, we are going to address it. Addressing it entails responding to it, at least for forums. Yes, (if thevalkyries is keith I have no idea) "Keith" can be taken in good faith. It doesn't mean his post was appropriate at all. And a leader of the site calling that out is none of dismissing trans people, centering the conversation on thevalkyries, or whatever you are attempting to imply. It's responding, and frankly, valk's response was "good enough to me." I didnt respond to his response and I let it die.

YOU decided to continue this and thereby "center" the conversation around this more. How about you look at the actual progression and flow of the conversation before jumping to unjustifiable accusations? Valk makes an unnecessarily harsh (even if with justified content) post; a leader responds asking why; exeggutor responds; valk responds; there is no further response from the leader. YOU decided to continue the leader's involvement in this conversation.

The bolded part is especially precious considering half your post focuses on the exclusion and bias the trans community experiences. Listen, the trans community should not be prejudiced against. That is a sad reality of our world. But the trans community still lives within the context of the overall community, both irl and on the internet. If a person attacks a person in the lgbtq thread, that doesn't need to be policed or handled or discussed solely through the lgbtq community? Sorry but that's not how anything anywhere works? If valk is breaking a rule, any leader on this site, regardless of lgbtq status, can call that out. You may not like that, but that's how it works.

And if you truly wish to not "derail" this topic any further, you're welcome to respond on my wall. Remember, my perspective on derailing is NOT responding to posts, so it's ok to me if you do respond here, but apparently your perspective derailing threads does involve that so it's on you.

I don't really want to focus this thread anymore on the thevalkyries / exeggutor situation, but I'm going to respond if you call me out, particularly if you call me out with such contrived justification.

 

[Bughouse]

And here I thought jumpluff was a nice user and Aldaron was a mean one

 

[Exeggutor]

It is pretty outrageous to tell me after literally four people in this thread tried to help you that nobody tried to educate you. I can't answer to whether we made you feel welcome or not and I'm sorry that you didn't, but I'm sorrier for those you made feel unwelcome.

i did say it was a quick response. i was getting ready for school and intended to talk with you privately once i returned home, but i can't expect you to have known that. i said he himself said that it wasn't his job, not that you - or anyone else responding - said that, nor did i mean to imply that none of you tried. and it did work! i understood even before valk's initial post, but here we are! i do find the idea that my belief is ahistorical funny - we talked about that kind of thing the same night valk and i first interacted. but i digress. i did not intend to make anyone feel unwelcome, and i apologize; i'm sorry for all this.

i do not wish to derail this further as others have said before, though, so i'll talk about what i'm actually going through related to the topic that i meant to talk about:
there is another girl who likes girls in my IT class that i'd like to get closer to. i'm not interested in her or anything, but i thought it'd be cool if i was able to talk to her. i'm pretty shy outside of class and don't interact with people i know IRL all too much. any ideas? :?

 

[blank]

can we stop being mean to each other? :c

Exeggutor is a nice person, and she definitely didn't mean any harm. leave her alone ;~;

 

[TheValkyries]

What are you on about here? _Everyone_ I spoke to, INCLUDING some lgbtq members in THIS community, said they thought thevalkyries post was uncalled for. It's great you and whoever you talk to believe that me coming in and defending a member of the community against an unwarranted attack was "explicit and unnecessary stirring of conflict", but I will defend people I feel are unfairly attacked everytime. I love how you write an entire tl;dr theorymon style post about feeling safe and seeing the other perspective and you go out of your way to try and insinuate a post DEFENDING a member of this community is "unnecessary stirring up of conflict."

First of all, the complete dismissal here is particularly hypocritical given the seeming intent of your post. But even if I were to ignore that, there is literally no objective individual who would claim thevalkyries' post was appropriate tone wise (even if he was justified content wise), and therefore there is no objective reason to feel a leader of the site is "unnecessarily" stirring anything up by responding to it. I could have deleted and infracted him (and I had support to do so), but I chose instead to give a chance to explain himself in a less hostile tone, and he did.

Guess what? Even if you thought thevalkyries' post was justified in its intent, THAT WAS THE ONE that "stirred up conflict" and DEFINITELY unnecessarily. The intent / content of the post may have been justified, but guess what, you have to say it the right way. That is how it works.

You seem to brush off the tone of his post just because you agreed with his intent...that's not how it works? If you're going to call out my post of all posts for stirring up conflict at least have the even single iota of decency to keep the expectations the same for both sides. If my DEFENDING of exeggutor's intent is stirring up conflict, how exactly is thevalkyries' tone not far worse (especially because it was first)?



How about you don't assume intentions or how conversations are centered on anything? If a post is unwarranted and uncalled for and borderline attacking, we are going to address it. Addressing it entails responding to it, at least for forums. Yes, (if thevalkyries is keith I have no idea) "Keith" can be taken in good faith. It doesn't mean his post was appropriate at all. And a leader of the site calling that out is none of dismissing trans people, centering the conversation on thevalkyries, or whatever you are attempting to imply. It's responding, and frankly, valk's response was "good enough to me." I didnt respond to his response and I let it die.

YOU decided to continue this and thereby "center" the conversation around this more. How about you look at the actual progression and flow of the conversation before jumping to unjustifiable accusations? Valk makes an unnecessarily harsh (even if with justified content) post; a leader responds asking why; exeggutor responds; valk responds; there is no further response from the leader. YOU decided to continue the leader's involvement in this conversation.

The bolded part is especially precious considering half your post focuses on the exclusion and bias the trans community experiences. Listen, the trans community should not be prejudiced against. That is a sad reality of our world. But the trans community still lives within the context of the overall community, both irl and on the internet. If a person attacks a person in the lgbtq thread, that doesn't need to be policed or handled or discussed solely through the lgbtq community? Sorry but that's not how anything anywhere works? If valk is breaking a rule, any leader on this site, regardless of lgbtq status, can call that out. You may not like that, but that's how it works.

And if you truly wish to not "derail" this topic any further, you're welcome to respond on my wall. Remember, my perspective on derailing is NOT responding to posts, so it's ok to me if you do respond here, but apparently your perspective derailing threads does involve that so it's on you.

I don't really want to focus this thread anymore on the thevalkyries / exeggutor situation, but I'm going to respond if you call me out, particularly if you call me out with such contrived justification.

Sorry sorry, I'm lost Aldaron, who did you speak to precisely that decided my tone in checking someone's passive aggressive remarks about trans experiences as being uncalled for? Because you are aware that Trans people have their own voices and are not spoken for by Gay or Lesbian people despite the LGBTQ name, right? In my case we actually had a trans person (Alice) come in and endorse both the tone and content of what I said. Do you really want to play a zero-sum game about whose LGBTQ credentials or endorsements are strong enough to control all discourse? It's great that you and whoever you talk to believe that defending a person who is saying openly hostile things is considered not also an act of further hostility as well.

You may not know the entire context of my previous interactions with Exeggutor, but there is no mistaking clear attacking posturing guised as innocuous innocence of understanding. This was blatantly made clear when she responded and made explicit what I called her out for implicitly stating in her first post. She already had an opinion and was coming in to see if anyone could convince her otherwise. How you can come in and continue under the conjecture that she wasn't being passive-aggressive is bewildering. This is not even the first time she has done something of this ilk, as Alice pointed out, defended someone actively misgendering them to cause harm along with other defenses that are even more unsavory. So really, you not understanding why my attack was "unwarranted" shows how clearly you didn't understand the dialogue going on in the first place, and your need to come in and defend someone who was already on the attack, and who otherwise is very capable of defending herself and her own onions, is itself entirely the unwarranted response. Your position as a community leader should be to understand the argument before joining and guiding it, not taking a side as soon as it starts based on who you perceive to be the aggressor of the moment.

Seriously it's very amusing that you continue to stress your position as a defender against an attack, which is poetically beautiful considering my initial post was about the disingenuity of playing the defender of hostility in the first place. Exeggutor came in stating questioning whether genderqueer people can perceive genderfucked as an insulting slur. As if the original insulting statement had a different intent and wasn't meant to be harmful; as if maybe they were just a really nice person who didn't fully understand these things lol. So I called her out on defending the hostility, reinforcing it and reifying it, to make explicitly clear that if someone says something is harmful you should listen, take note, pay attention before writing off that experience as simply silly. To then have you come in defending her tacit defense of slurs. Damn. Coming to the defense of something does not make you the righteous hero on the side of fairness and justness.

Combine that with your paragraph about the necessity to say things the right way, as if passive aggression is not equally as aggressive at times as open aggression. As if defending hostility towards others isn't an act of hostility in and of itself. Why precisely is my post a more egregious version of hostility than Exeggutor's? Why is the more aggressive post the on that's being upset at someone saying the equivalent of "you're overreacting" and passionately telling them to recognize how damaging that is and how it causes many people harm?

And to be clear, I didn't post after her first post, I posted after her second one which let her hide behind a veil of ignorance as if she can't get the complex ideas of "someone says their feelings are hurt when someone says something that makes fun of their identity". Realllly? Sounds more like mocking judgment than it does sincerity in not understanding why that could be hurtful. But let's reduce it to the most benefit of the doubt (which I did) she's still at best coming in and questioning trans experiences and then not really giving any attempt to really truly understand the answer. That's some real insidious shit no matter what and that needed to be stated. That point has been reiterated a few times now, but damn it's important when you're saying that my post is the one that needed attention from you personally. That I was the one that needed the checking.

 

[Aldaron]

OK, I'm not going to bother to respond to your wild accusations nor anyone else from your particular group.

Yes, I decided that your post's tone was unacceptable, and yes, I decided to defend another user against that. Like I stated previously, I had other leaders agree with the potential to both delete and infract your post. My mistake was not doing that and giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You might not like it, but the leaders of this site and community decide the parameters for what is acceptable or not in terms of tone of a post and whether or not that is acceptable.

This is literally the last of this silly conversation I'm going to tolerate in here; any further posts about this situation will be deleted and possibly infracted.

Next time, try not to attack people in a fit of gimmicky rage. That's all.

 

[dhelmise]

Ok to get this thread back onto its rails...

[21:35] Rhythms: k back
[21:35] Rhythms: so when i went to the thing today
[21:35] Rhythms: there were a lot of new people so we went around in a circle stating our name, age, grade, sexuality, and pronouns
[21:35] Rhythms: and of course
[21:36] Rhythms: the one time i go to gsa
[21:36] Rhythms: there are homophobs there
[21:36] +m00ns: huh
[21:36] +m00ns: that's odd
[21:36] +m00ns: of them to be there
[21:36] Rhythms: they probably went so they could "out" the people who werent already out
[21:36] Rhythms: :(
[21:37] Rhythms: some of the seniors in the group told the supervising teacher
[21:37] Rhythms: but idk what will happen

thing = gsa (i almost typed gas lmao)

Basically, It's fall break. My school has a GSA (Gender Sexuality Alliance for those who don't know). I went this week because it was an all day club special thing (more like three or four hours but w/e), and that's about the same length as four meetings, which let me get a feel for the club. I also went because I didn't have to go to the club room after school and have people see me go and start spreading rumors.

Today in the club, there was a huge amount of new members, so we went around in a circle and states our name (Not saying this), age (14), grade (9th), sexuality (gay), and pronouns (he, him). Now, I just recently "fully accepted" my sexuality (I was unsure for a bit so that's why I'm saying "fully"), so I thought this would be the most awkward part. I was glad that I went, but an hour or two after I came home (also I told my parents it was like art club or some shit), I found out that three of the "new members" were actually very well known in school for being homophobic, and that on their freshman year, they joined the club once just to out a ton of closeted people. Now they're seniors, and I'm fearing that this might happen to me and I don't know what to do. The school's staff already knows about it, but even if they're suspended or w/e, there's still texting and various social media. I'm not ready for this. What do I do. :(

 

[Tressed]

Ok to get this thread back onto its rails...

[21:35] Rhythms: k back
[21:35] Rhythms: so when i went to the thing today
[21:35] Rhythms: there were a lot of new people so we went around in a circle stating our name, age, grade, sexuality, and pronouns
[21:35] Rhythms: and of course
[21:36] Rhythms: the one time i go to gsa
[21:36] Rhythms: there are homophobs there
[21:36] +m00ns: huh
[21:36] +m00ns: that's odd
[21:36] +m00ns: of them to be there
[21:36] Rhythms: they probably went so they could "out" the people who werent already out
[21:36] Rhythms: :(
[21:37] Rhythms: some of the seniors in the group told the supervising teacher
[21:37] Rhythms: but idk what will happen

thing = gsa (i almost typed gas lmao)

Basically, It's fall break. My school has a GSA (Gender Sexuality Alliance for those who don't know). I went this week because it was an all day club special thing (more like three or four hours but w/e), and that's about the same length as four meetings, which let me get a feel for the club. I also went because I didn't have to go to the club room after school and have people see me go and start spreading rumors.

Today in the club, there was a huge amount of new members, so we went around in a circle and states our name (Not saying this), age (14), grade (9th), sexuality (gay), and pronouns (he, him). Now, I just recently "fully accepted" my sexuality (I was unsure for a bit so that's why I'm saying "fully"), so I thought this would be the most awkward part. I was glad that I went, but an hour or two after I came home (also I told my parents it was like art club or some shit), I found out that three of the "new members" were actually very well known in school for being homophobic, and that on their freshman year, they joined the club once just to out a ton of closeted people. Now they're seniors, and I'm fearing that this might happen to me and I don't know what to do. The school's staff already knows about it, but even if they're suspended or w/e, there's still texting and various social media. I'm not ready for this. What do I do. :(

There's not really much you can do if they're going to be like that. Informing teachers / supervisors only goes so far when it comes to this sort of thing, if they're really into giving you a hard time there's not a ton teachers can do. Obviously if you are getting picked on then go to whoever handles discipline and explain to them what's going on, but I don't think there's a ton of options to prevent this sort of thing from happening unless you want to live under a rock until they forget you're gay.

This is gonna sound naive as hell but if they show up again, try getting to know them a bit. A lot of homophobia stems from not understanding what exactly is going on, and really, what better place is there than a GSA group? Of course there's no chance that they're going to come back at all if they're shunned or everyone is afraid of them (or if they are just there to take names), but if they're included in discussions and activities it's a lot more likely they'll come around to understanding what's going on with us.

also I like the song in your sig (:

Also since I haven't actually posted here yet and the only place I wrote this down went to hell about three posts later, I may as well do this officially. I'm bisexual. I grew up pretty Christian and never really noticed anything off because hey, I like girls, everything's normal. After dumping the religious stuff I started hanging out with some GSA people and started crushing on this trans guy, which kinda clued me in that maaaaybe something was up. Anyways I have one or two irl friends and a couple online friends who know, plus my mom and my sister who have been really good about it. Still unsure about telling more people because a lot of my irl friends are pretty swag and I'm a little scared they won't be interested in hanging out with me anymore.

You can tell I'm nervous about this due to the number of uses of the words also and anyways.

 

[ryan]

They might also be gay. A lot of people who have non-hetero feelings become paranoid about being exposed, so they'll externalize that through doing the only thing that will really convince people that they aren't gay—making fun of gay people. Going to a GSA meeting could be their way of trying to come to terms with themselves while having a pretty easy cover of "we're there to make fun of people" in case they're exposed. With three of them, it's pretty unlikely that they're all gay, but one of them pretty easily could be and just doesn't want his friends to know. If that's the case, that person probably feels miserable. Just keep that in mind when you're dealing with these guys. They might not all be out to get you, and they might actually be looking for help.

Tressed, do whatever you feel comfortable with. From my personal experience, coming out early was great for me. I put up with a lot of shit because of it, but it all helped me develop into the person I am today. The sooner you can be open about who you are, the sooner you can start living your life the way you want to, but I understand that some people are in situations where coming out can cause a lot more harm than good.

 

[Minwu]

These were the runnerups for Oxford Dictionary's word of the year. enby pride!

 

[EV]

People have been abusing "they" for a really long time. Why is Oxford just hearing of it?

 

[skies]

They / them is so common now it just seems difficult to justify respect towards the people who use it because it's become a joke with how it's portrayed... Sad.

 

[TheValkyries]

So yall are just here for the first 3 letters then? That's cool.

Minwu that's actually genuinely really awesome of Oxford I wish the solidarity for enby people would've been chosen especially given a lot of the recent exposure for various genderfluid celebrities.

 

[elcheeso]

They / them is so common now it just seems difficult to justify respect towards the people who use it because it's become a joke with how it's portrayed... Sad.

Likewise, he/him and she/her are common, and we have to reject popular pronouns because we're all big ol' hipsters who hate that sort of shit. Fae/faer/faeself pronouns all around! Neopronouns are the only true path to legitimacy!

That said, I'm not sure how I'd feel if my pronouns were being shown as on par with the word 'lumbersexual'. Why is that a thing? And why do people feel the need to put -sexual at the end of words relating to how men dress? God damn. This shit needs to stop, it's ridiculous.

People have been abusing "they" for a really long time. Why is Oxford just hearing of it?

Judging by the word 'refugee' being on the list, it's not necessarily a "we've only just heard of it" thing, just the words being especially relevant to this year.

 

[blank]

i hate hipster pronouns. call me a bigot idc, but i refuse to use "xe".

they just makes more sense & i've never seen it used offensively :x