Serious LGBTQ

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dhelmise

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Sorry if something I say comes off as offensive, I don't really understand transgenderism so I came here.

From what I see people decide to change gender because their interests are stereotypical of the other gender, ie. a guy who plays with dolls wanting to become a girl. I don't agree with this stereotyping. (I don't think personal interest should define gender) Is it because of this you change genders. (This come from the perspective of a straight cisgender who believes in accepting the way you are born btw) Also I don't really buy the 'gender spectrum' concept because quite frankly you are born with a dick or vagina and I don't see why there would be mental spectrum and not a physical one reflected.
Again I don't mean to come across as offensive, I just need someone to explain this stuff to me
No. People don't "decide" to be gay, bisexual, or transgender. Everyone's just born that way. I didn't just wake up one day and say, "Hey! I'm tired of being straight. I like men now!" I was just born like this. For the "gender spectrum," there are a ton of genders. There is cis-male, cis-female, trans-male (Woman into Man), trans-female (Man into Woman), genderfluid (gender identity and biological gender assignments don't "connect" some days, aka some days you are not the gender that your crotch shows). It's difficult to explain the mental "spectrum" for sexuality and/or gender, because a lot of times people will just think you're making it up, so I'll try my best. When you are transgender, you are born with one biological gender, except your gender identity, the gender that you mentally are (and that should connect with who you physically are), don't meet up (if that makes sense). Transgender people don't just decide that they want boobs or a flat chest one random day and then just go for it. They do those procedures just because they want to be themselves, which they cannot do when they are born. They have those interests (guy playing with dolls) because that's what they like to do. Hobbies have nothing to do with cisgenderism or transgenderism, they're just more popular to one gender, and people seeing a person of the less popular gender doing something of the more popular one just automatically assume that he's gay/she's lesbian or he/she's trans. One of my friends is a trans girl (man into woman), but she still likes playing football and doing literally everything normal guys do. Regardless, it shouldn't matter what your sexuality or gender is, we're all people. Feeling different in some way shouldn't change that. Who cares if someone's trans or genderfluid or Gender Nonbinary (i think this is what it's called; basically you're a third gender, hence the "other" option when selecting gender on websites), every person is a person and should be treated as such: a person, not a lowlife or anything lower than human, just human.
 
Thanks for clearing some stuff up rhythms. I guess I was oversimplifying things and had the idea that after a lifetime of being told their interests were for the opposite gender, people gradually identified more and more with the opposite until they became transgender. I'll do some research into the gender spectrum now i guess
 
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vonFiedler

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No. People don't "decide" to be gay, bisexual, or transgender. Everyone's just born that way. I didn't just wake up one day and say, "Hey! I'm tired of being straight. I like men now!" I was just born like this. For the "gender spectrum," there are a ton of genders. There is cis-male, cis-female, trans-male (Woman into Man), trans-female (Man into Woman), genderfluid (gender identity and biological gender assignments don't "connect" some days, aka some days you are not the gender that your crotch shows). It's difficult to explain the mental "spectrum" for sexuality and/or gender, because a lot of times people will just think you're making it up, so I'll try my best. When you are transgender, you are born with one biological gender, except your gender identity, the gender that you mentally are (and that should connect with who you physically are), don't meet up (if that makes sense). Transgender people don't just decide that they want boobs or a flat chest one random day and then just go for it. They do those procedures just because they want to be themselves, which they cannot do when they are born. They have those interests (guy playing with dolls) because that's what they like to do. Hobbies have nothing to do with cisgenderism or transgenderism, they're just more popular to one gender, and people seeing a person of the less popular gender doing something of the more popular one just automatically assume that he's gay/she's lesbian or he/she's trans. One of my friends is a trans girl (man into woman), but she still likes playing football and doing literally everything normal guys do. Regardless, it shouldn't matter what your sexuality or gender is, we're all people. Feeling different in some way shouldn't change that. Who cares if someone's trans or genderfluid or Gender Nonbinary (i think this is what it's called; basically you're a third gender, hence the "other" option when selecting gender on websites), every person is a person and should be treated as such: a person, not a lowlife or anything lower than human, just human.
You didn't answer his question at all.

Why does a person feel that they are different gender if gender has no impact on who you are or what you do with your life? What is mental gender?
 
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dhelmise

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You didn't answer his question at all.

Why does a person feel that they are different gender if gender has no impact on who you are or what you do with your life? What is mental gender?
I misunderstood what he was saying then I guess? All he really asked (clearly) is if people only change gender because their interests match up with those of the opposite gender.

Anyways, "a person might feel that they are different gender" if they're showering, and they might look down and all they would see is a penis, which could just make them sad, which is one sign that their gender identity is opposite of their biological sex. I personally don't know how to answer this question because I'm not trans and don't know what it feels like, and I don't want to answer it wrong, so the best I can really do is provide an example of how you might realize this. Maybe some transgender people in this thread could answer?

E: But a mental gender isn't really what it's called, it's known as "gender identity." Honest'y, just googling "what is gender identity" would be more reliable than me, because I have no idea how to explain it with words.
 

Bughouse

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I think the simplest answer is that people who are cisgender will just always have a hard time understanding what gender means to trans and non-binary people. I've had many conversations with two close trans friends and it just doesn't really click to me. I don't think it ever will.

However, despite not being able to really understand it, the most important thing is to recognize that respecting people and their performance of gender is the decent and right thing to do.
 
Several studies have found post-mortem differences in some regions of the brain in transsexual people (including ones who never took hormones but claimed until their deathbeds that they had the wrong body) that more closely resembled that of cis people of their identified sex, which indicates that gender identity is rooted in neuroanatomy. Many of my saved links are offline, but I can link http://transcience-project.org/brain_sex.html and this video from 1:23:53 onwards.

Preferences regarding gender expression, preferred activities, etc. don't necessarily have anything to do with gender identity (but they can definitely be socially influenced). It is very difficult to study just how much innate influence gender could have, because it's nearly impossible to prevent social influence.

I know of a lot of butch trans women who primarily prefer masculine activities, just like there are trans men who are effeminate.

People don't transition because of what they'd like to do, but because of feeling miserably depressed over how their body looks and/or how society genders them, compared to what their brain is telling them they are. This is very hard to grasp for cis people since they cannot imagine how that would feel, or a scenario in which they could feel that - many assume if they woke up in the body of the opposite sex tomorrow, they'd just be ok with it.

In the end, cis people just have to take medical professionals' word that gender dysphoria exists and isn't just being delusional/insane, that it can lead to severe depression and anxiety, sadly all too often suicide, and the only known treatment that works is transitioning to the opposite sex.

As for non-binary people, I'm not familiar enough with their journey.

Also I'd like to quote one of my previous posts in this topic:

For people who want to understand more about gender, gender dysphoria and in general trans woman issues, I'd recommend Julia Serano - Whipping Girl, probably the most important and best-written book on the subject I've read so far (if anyone has read that as well as a book they thought was better, I'd be very curious to read that book as well).

Julia Serano herself described feeling like a woman as:
All of the words available in the English language completely fail to accurately capture or convey my personal understanding of these events. For example, if I were to say that I ‘saw’ myself as female, or ‘knew’ myself to be a girl, I would be denying the fact that I was consciously aware of my physical maleness at all times. And saying that I ‘wished’ or ‘wanted’ to be a girl erases how much being female made sense to me, how it felt right on the deepest, most profound level of my being. I could say that I ‘felt’ like a girl, but that would give the false impression that I knew how other girls (and other boys) felt. And if I were to say that I was ‘supposed to be’ a girl or that I ‘should have been born’ female, it would imply that I had some sort of cosmic insight into the grand scheme of the universe, which I most certainly did not.

Perhaps the best way to describe how my subconscious sex feels to me is to say that it seems as if, on some level, my brain expects my body to be female.
 
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You didn't answer his question at all.

Why does a person feel that they are different gender if gender has no impact on who you are or what you do with your life? What is mental gender?
How many regular posters in this thread do you think want this to be a "debate" thread, especially wrt their own identity? I wouldn't be surprised if the same exact question has been asked several times.
 
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Myzozoa

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first in regards to some questions that were engaged with in recent posts:

https://androgyneity.wordpress.com/...are-actually-the-same-thing-but-bear-with-me/

"If someone identifies as male, then they are male and their body is male. If someone identifies as female, then they are female and their body is female. I identify as an androgyne, I am an androgyne, and my body and sex are (you guessed it) also androgynous — regardless of my medical decisions or transition status.

The purpose of trans inclusion is not to concede to the self-determined nature of gender while holding steadfast to the social construct of biological sex, and in fact these two things cannot exist in tandem. Trans people cannot truly have agency to self-determine their genders unless they also have agency to self-determine their bodies as being in alignment with that.

Trans inclusivity should redefine our understanding of gender and sex so that trans people are able to fit seamlessly within them (or better yet wouldn’t need to if the notions can be discarded entirely), not to have trans people straddle narrow, arbitrary classifications with certain parts of their personhood on one side of a line and certain parts on the other."

"
First of all, the things we currently know about the intrinsic differences in male and female physiology are basically just that we know a heck of a lot less than we thought we did. Recent findings have shown that there are no significant differences in male and female brain structure and that chromosomes do not determine sexual development, and many things we previously accepted as “hard facts” are turning out to be just antiquated speculation.

It’s almost as if the gender/sex binary was invented by people who then manufactured artificial qualifiers to reinforce it, which then became woven into our study of biology, medicine and psychology. Huh. Weird.

In reality, everyone’s medical needs are different. Yes, a trans man and a cis man will never have exactly the same medical needs, but also an able-bodied man will have different needs than a man with a disability, and there are even certain differences in medical treatment that exist between different ethnicities. Only a small portion of our medical treatment is actually affected by what’s between our legs, and when that becomes relevant to medical treatment, it needs to be discussed on an individual basis anyway."

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/myths-non-binary-transition/

note that i do not 'agree' with a lot of the content of these links, nonetheless there is relevant information and ideas in them. the point is not just to agree or disagree about such content or even to debate concepts at the level of whether or not to recognize certain identities.

sometimes i find myself thinking like Bughouse, except i dont really believe in cisgender people. the sentiment is similar tho: trans*/queerness in the imagination of 'cis' ppl has nothing to do with the reality of trans* people's lived experiences.

going off of minwu's comments (can't post from my other computer's internet explorer so if this is repetitive it's because it's late):

i can't speak for other posters itt, but perhaps the title and op of this thread could reflect that the purpose of this thread is not necessarily to explain words to people, even the words that apparently make up the acronym.


Precisely because of this, and that the experiences of two trans* people may be vastly different, there is no reason to always engage with these definitive questions. Especially as there is a risk of flattening the complexities and richness and nuance of such experiences/identities. Trans/non-binary people will exist regardless of whether the validity of their identity is granted itt/forum, explanations for trans* identities are scrutinized, tested for validity, in a way that experiences of trans people neither can nor should be. these tests may be set aside.

and briefly note that the binary, taken as historical project, is very "Western" (christian even), emerging globally as a legacy of Western imperialisms in the last 500 years. so consider what sort of affirmation it is to identify that way when asked (and i really am not trying to be offensive because i have no problem with people who identify as binary). Also will the affirmation be motivated by coercive factors? in what circumstances/context, and what caused the circumstance/context to emerge historically?

the letters in the acronym are each an acronym all itself, a bricolage of supposedly analytically unifiable ways of being. But as was mentioned in the links above, justice is about doing the particulars/individual details appropriately, and that means attending to the differences that may divide people internal to these labels/categories (and I dont use 'label' negatively, labels may turn out to be essential). And note that sharing experiences is essential to coming to terms with difference, which is why part of the point of this thread is to discuss users' experiences. But the aim, for me perhaps, is actually to 'reveal' these identities more through that process of the 'sharing of experiences' (meant in 2 senses: the literal/political meaning, to be present in the same moment, but also in the normative sense of users writing their experiences), rather than through a definition given for an educational task. And under no circumstances should this be taken to mean that anyone has to respond to definitive questions by sharing their life experiences, as that would be hella unsafe and intrusive and messed up. Rather, I would suggest that the op direct users asking definitive questions try a search engine, and that a parenthetical be added to the title, something like " LGBTQ (read the op)" along with something in the op about how the point of this thread is not to provide abstract definitions for these terms or smthg.

just some of my thoughts.
 
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Okay so, on the LGBTQ topic but not necessarily in line with the previous discussion. It's been annoying me lately about the automatic anti-intellectual response of genuine and legitimate criticism within or of 'the' community (I quote 'the' because I don't believe at all it's a single community but w/e). There are actual problems and completely integral discussion points to be made but are shrugged off with a 'if you're not with us you're against us' mindset. If you make a single comment about LGBT that isn't 100% 'omg lgbt is awesome' type dealio then you're passed off as a terrible person to be ignored. I am LGBT before anyone does what I described to me, but there are shortcomings within 'the' community that are going completely addressed due to the defensive nature. For a community about being open minded there are people that are really closed.

Btw I'm not pointing out anyone here, it was a discussion point on a stream one day.
 
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EV

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Marginalized communities often insulate and protect themselves like that. It's a byproduct from being, well, marginalized.

In terms of not taking criticism about the community to heart, it's difficult to address the concern without knowing where the criticism is coming from. Is it internal? (Some good examples of that would be gay men saying bi men are just afraid to be "fully" gay. Another is the divide between PrEP advocates/Truvada whore skeptics.) Is it external? ("Gay people are promiscuous," "The LGBTQ+ community is too 'in your face,'" and "Same-sex couples can't raise children" are common outsider stereotypes/criticisms.)

I don't blame the community for being defensive. Other people--even those within our community--use criticism to subvert one another, not as a way to broach intellectual discourse. Could we work on responding to criticism more positively? Sure, but a lot of it comes down to context, so without that, it's hard to confront the problem head-on.
 
I was thinking more of an non-specific amalgamation of legitimate criticism, not bs like 'gay couples can't raise children'. But if you want a specific point the one that came to mind was the popularisation of LGBT. It's now become cool to be gay, which is stupid. Anyone on Quotev will know what I mean. I wasn't going for a specific source, rather a deflection of all criticism regardless of source.

I understand why a marginalised community would be defensive generally. However just because I understand it that doesn't mean I like it. Ideally everyone should be either intergrated together or judged on individual aspects like personality and mentality with broad strokes like sexuality playing no part, since sexuality denotes no difference. The LGBTQ community is doing great on being acceptable but not so great on being integrated and 'normal'
 
I haven't posted here for about two and a half years, so I figure I might as well give you all an update on how I have been going since mid-2013. This post is quite long, so I split it into years for your convenience.

2013
I accomplished absolutely fuck all for a long time after making that post. This was a result of a combination of unfortunate circumstances. Not only was I completely ignored by my school when I explicitly stated multiple times in writing that I was having severe issues with my identity, there were just literally no opportunities available for me to do anything. Both parents were struggling with their own issues for a while after August 2013, which deterred me from adding to these issues with my own (admittedly large-scale) problems. Pretty much all I did was quietly change my Facebook gender to female.

2014
2014 was a year that was similarly poor in terms of progress. While I did tell a few people I trusted, albeit in a very awkward manner involving 3:00AM Facebook messages, it was also a year where suicidal thoughts began to become somewhat more prevalent in my mental space than they had ever been. I thought that removing myself from existence by jumping in front of a train just after school was a brilliant idea that would have resulted in a quick death with little pain. However, further reading revealed that, a lot of the time, jumping in front of a train does little more than amputate limbs and/or result in catastrophic brain damage. On top of this, every time I got very close to committing suicide, something in me urged me not to do so, reassuring me that 'everything would get better eventually'. This happened several times throughout the year, which, while disheartening, reminded me that there was really only so much I could take and that I was reaching the end of my tether.

I decided to try coming out in a subtle manner through my school, so I wrote a story heavily based off my life for the Journeys module in English. It involved someone who, after a journey of self-introspection, decides to come out to their parents and commence the real journey of self-fulfillment. While it got decent marks, nothing more was said after the paper got handed back to me. It kind of sucked, but I wasn't deterred. I could always try again the next time I had the chance. Things remained dormant until November, where I came out to my mum (again) in a tear-stricken meltdown. She promised that we would book some sort of therapy, and I thought that things would finally change for the better. It was, after all, seemingly the most fruitful of all my attempts to come out, since the reception was nowhere near as hostile or dismissive as before.

I was wrong. Nothing came of it, and I was left reeling at what I took as wilful ignorance of my identity due to a reluctance to confront the fact that I was not all I seemed. Like 2013, 2014 thus came and went with very little to show for what had been an unpleasant year; I had struggled immensely socially this year as well, being passed over by several people I considered friends when they were organising things that everyone else in my social group got to attend.

2015 (nothing)
At the beginning of 2015, my cousin came to live with us for the year while she started studying Psychology (later changed to Primary Education), and I just knew that this would complicate things for me. It just meant there was another individual to overcome when I (hopefully!) got to come out. As it turned out, nothing happened (once again) for the majority of the year. My cousin ended up becoming my best friend (although I never told her anything) and my social life improved drastically for a short period of time in the middle of the year, but I soon ended up getting rejected from everything again all of a sudden for God knows what reason, which did not help matters. On Smogon, which had been (and still is) my safe haven all of that time, Bloo revealed that she was, in fact, a girl who had been concealing her gender from the vast majority of the community for ages due to both a (legitimate) fear of being stigmatised and the need to continue a masculine facade. This greatly resonated with me and made me really determined to make 2015 the year I could reflect on as having done something useful for myself.

In June 2015, I came out to my mum (again!) in similar circumstances to my November 2015 attempt. This time, my mum said that she would definitely seek out a referral to a therapist of some sort for me. She told my dad that I was probably going to seek therapy for my issues with socialising with people without mentioning my gender identity, and he didn't care - just as long as I didn't seek out the services of any school counsellors in the meantime. Fair enough, I thought. Surely this time I would get a referral, leaving no need for visits to the school counsellor!

lol

A crucial moment in my social life that would almost certainly have resulted in a referral being sought ended up having drastic repercussions for everybody in my family. I had been invited to a party, and I had an absolutely awful time thanks to me being forced to repress myself in front of everybody, as always. On the way home, I told my dad that I had an awful time. Aside from being told that I 'was probably more autistic than [we] thought', my dad, seeing I was tear-stricken, told me not to tell my mum that I had a terrible time. I don't know what he was thinking, but I can only assume he did not want my mum to get upset late that night. Unfortunately, this moment of social failure would have been the catalyst to getting a referral, as I learned later on in the year, and the fact that I never told my mum that I was still struggling socially meant that she thought that there was no need for me to seek therapy. After all, everything seemed fine on the surface.

Time wore on, and I continued to struggle. I was becoming quite depressed and withdrawn from people at school, and it was ever so slightly showing in my academic results. Suicide became a constant thought for me, and although my ever-strong willpower stopped me from doing anything, it was becoming abundantly clear that, once again, something had to give. In a spur of creative 'genius' in September 2015, I found my chance to do something in - surprise, surprise - another creative writing story for Belonging, where, using a perfect stimulus, I wrote a story about someone who does not belong due to hiding their gender identity from everybody. Again, I drew heavily from my own experience. I submitted it with the expectation that nothing would come of it.

2015 (something, nothing, then something again)
The next day, I was summoned to the school boardroom, where my English teacher and another teacher sat me down and pulled out my story. As it turned out, they were concerned as I 'had written something very similar' before. I allayed their concerns by saying that I simply had an interest in the subject of transgender people, but it was clear from my shaking and quavering voice that I was lying. This played on me for the rest of the day and all of the next day, so I decided to email them telling the truth: I identified as female and wrote from the heart. I got very supportive responses and they said they would talk to me the next day. Unfortunately, the next day was when I had an English yearly exam, and I was nervous as fuck about literally everything. This cost me valedictorian, as I ended up coming second to the eventual valedictorian by a lousy mark. Such is life. I did have a very productive talk with the teachers, though, who was were very good and suggested I see the school counsellor. Knowing how fucked I would be if my parents caught wind of this, I declined. However, days of little sleep and terrible appetite meant that I eventually gave in and opted to see the counsellor.

I didn't expect her to be as accepting and helpful as she was, but she was (and is), and was a constant source of support over the tumultuous final weeks of that term alongside the two teachers (three more ended up being told by necessity). She suggested that we organise an in-school meeting with my parents regarding my being transgender, as all my other shots had failed. I gave this an OK, and waited out the school holidays (which sucked) until school resumed.

The school, with my permission, rang my mum out of the blue and told her that I wanted a meeting of sorts at the beginning of October, when school restarted. Clearly shaken, my mum confronted me later that day, and suggested I tell her and my dad what was going on before any 'meeting' happened. I did, and the reaction I got was far better than I expected. I thought this would all work out, and the meeting, which happened on that Friday, seemingly did work out, with someone from The Gender Centre coming down to my school to help explain to my parents what the fuck was going on.

I couldn't have been more wrong. On that Sunday, my mum called me over to the house next door (we own both, long story) for a private talk. As it turned out, the meeting was organised very poorly, with my parents being exposed to the wider school community upon arrival, which put them off. Furthermore, the person who came from The Gender Centre was, according to my mum, far too forthright. She was right in some respects, but most of her 'forthrightness' was just her being hypothetical about what COULD happen should I ever officially be diagnosed as suffering from gender dysphoria. The biggest gripe was that I hadn't told my parents I was organising any of this and that I had told the counsellor literally everything about what had happened with me over the preceding six years, which, to my parents, was a betrayal. Of course, I had not meant this. I did not want them to be hit with such a hard blow, yet the way I had gone about this just made the blow harder for them - I had made 'family issues' known to a much larger base of people. I also learned that day that my diagnosis of Asperger's as a young child, which had constantly been hammered into me for years, had been challenged and essentially mooted five years ago by another psychologist. My dad reacted in an even more emotional manner, expressing his extreme anger at me for having 'betrayed' him and my mum and chastising the Gender Centre person for her (hypothetical) 'overstepping the mark'. I was still promised external therapy, but this cut really deep. It hurt me so much, and still does today when I think about it.

Things went alright for the rest of the term, surprisingly. I finally got to see an external therapist, who I really hope to work with over the next year (I've only managed to see them once due to how little time I've had). I also wrote yet another creative writing piece about being transgender, which got full marks and was described as 'the best story [the teacher's] ever seen a kid do'. Unfortunately, at the term's end, one of the really supportive teachers at my school left to go on a year's maternity leave, which was kind of upsetting. However, what really pissed me off was the fact that a member of staff told me that I should leave 'exploring myself until you leave school' and just 'focus on your studies for the time being' when there are high school kids fucking everywhere who are going through the exact same thing as I am. I know he was told to say it by a member of the executive staff, which is even more fucking incensing. Now I have no idea what I am going to do or if anything will even happen this year, after I made so much progress.

This post is really fucking long, and I apologise for that, but I am actually quite frustrated at the moment and just felt the need to vent a little (or a lot, as it turns out). Hopefully, I can work around the sudden reluctance of my school to help me through coming out and actually, FINALLY, start living life the way I have NEEDED to live it for the last six years plus. Thanks for reading.
 

KM

slayification
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It's now become cool to be gay, which is stupid.
No, it really actually hasn't! Are more people coming out as LGBTQ than in the past? Yes, but that has nothing to do with some perceived "coolness" of being a marginalized group, and to suggest that it is is pretty insensitive. There's a couple of factors that go into this surge - real or not - of coming out.

1. Increased acceptability leads to lowered threshold. What I mean by this is that for every closeted queer person, there is some amount of desire to come out, however small, and they actually do come out when that desire overcomes the factors in their life that make coming out scary/negative/possibly threatening (a slight oversimplification, perhaps, but on a macro scale it's just true). When the consequences for coming out are decreased through a society that is becoming more accepting of queer people and increased resources, that means more people come out. Obviously there's somewhat of a positive feedback loop associated with this as well, because more people coming out = more acceptability etc etc.

Furthermore, there are probably some people who are coming out now who did not consider themselves "queer enough" to make it worth their while coming out - in the sense that if someone is bisexual, they might have chosen to present as straight their whole life twenty years ago but not today (please note that I am not at all saying "bisexuals have it so easy they can just pretend to be str8!!"). Someone who identifies as genderqueer might have simply dealt with occasional dysphoria in the past.

2. Increased visibility and access to education leads to increased awareness. With the advent of the internet, you can't /not know/ about LGBT people, which can help a lot of people far more quickly come to terms with their identity than in the past. The ability to use the internet as an anonymous forum for meeting others like you is highly valuable in helping people discover themselves.

Are there a handful of kids out there slapping every label they can find on themselves for fun or attention? Probably, but if that's what you're referring to when you say "being gay is cool now", that's extremely reductive and honestly really ignorant of the very real struggles that queer people still face, as you obviously know.


. However just because I understand it that doesn't mean I like it. Ideally everyone should be either intergrated together or judged on individual aspects like personality and mentality with broad strokes like sexuality playing no part, since sexuality denotes no difference. The LGBTQ community is doing great on being acceptable but not so great on being integrated and 'normal'
i don't exactly know what you're getting at, but no, this idea of sexuality as a separated trait that has and has had no bearing on your life other than who you will fuck in the future is simplistic and essentially the queer equivalent of "race-blindness". The fact that I am queer contributes to the life experiences that I have had and the specific queer shared experiences that I can discuss on this forum. The fact that I am queer enables me to interact with queer culture in a way i would not be able to were I not queer. The fact that I am queer means that I have been oppressed, am oppressed, and will continue to be oppressed, and that oppression has and will constantly shape my life experiences and my opportunities. The fact that I am queer and thereby oppressed means that I am at risk health-wise both physically and mentally, and I am aware of how my physical and mental health has been affected by my queerness. It means that my childhood was colored by discovering and hiding a secret, and that my adulthood will probably continue on with awkward omissions at family events, fear of affection in public, and suppression of my own gender and sexual expression to conform with heteronormative requirements in my workplace and outside.

sorry for going all preachy on you but i feel strongly about this and this rhetoric of needing to integrate with the straights is pretty harmful.
 
No, it really actually hasn't! Are more people coming out as LGBTQ than in the past? Yes, but that has nothing to do with some perceived "coolness" of being a marginalized group, and to suggest that it is is pretty insensitive. There's a couple of factors that go into this surge - real or not - of coming out.
I'm not talking about more people coming out. I understand why that happens. I'm talking about the popularisation of LGBT people for nothing other than that they are LGBT. I'm talking about sites like Quotev, and irl as well. If you go on quotev, spend a good amount of time browsing profiles you'll hardly be able to list the amount of comments that say things like 'I wish I was as gay as you' or 'I'm super hella gay'.There are a fair amount of people who are straight but pretend otherwise to merge into the more popular social groups. This is ridiculous, a straight person shouldn't pretend to be gay any more than a gay person should pretend to be straight. Our sexualities shouldn't really influence how others see us at all is my point.

That goes onto the second part, which you've misunderstood. My fault though, I didn't really word it correctly. Ideally people should all be equal initially, and then separated by skill, competence, experience, personality etc. Whether your gay, straight or whatever else ideally won't affect your social or at least your professional standing in any way. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything but it's simple fact that an employer wants more qualified people. This is probably just my naivety, but if ideals don't exist then there'd be nothing to work to. I care less about current standing and more about what our standing could and should be and working to it.

Also could please you not say queer so much e.e? I realise it has legitimate implications but throughout Europe and the UK queer is nothing else but a offensive term that we find very distasteful. Not saying to stop, just reduce it a bit :3? Thanks.
 

vonFiedler

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That goes onto the second part, which you've misunderstood. My fault though, I didn't really word it correctly. Ideally people should all be equal initially, and then separated by skill, competence, experience, personality etc. Whether your gay, straight or whatever else ideally won't affect your social or at least your professional standing in any way. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything but it's simple fact that an employer wants more qualified people. This is probably just my naivety, but if ideals don't exist then there'd be nothing to work to. I care less about current standing and more about what our standing could and should be and working to it.

Also could please you not say queer so much e.e? I realise it has legitimate implications but throughout Europe and the UK queer is nothing else but a offensive term that we find very distasteful. Not saying to stop, just reduce it a bit :3? Thanks.
Look at this privileged as fuck straight guy somehow worried that gays are of such high standing now that they are gonna take his jobs. That's what your post reads in its entirety, "what about meeeeeeeeee". So typical. You can't even rebut me on this one because you personally believe that "stereotypes have basis in truth".

Don't come into an LGBT thread and ask people not say to queer. What is wrong with you?
 
Look at this privileged as fuck straight guy somehow worried that gays are of such high standing now that they are gonna take his jobs. That's what your post reads in its entirety, "what about meeeeeeeeee". So typical. You can't even rebut me on this one because you personally believe that "stereotypes have basis in truth".

Don't come into an LGBT thread and ask people not say to queer. What is wrong with you?
Excuse me e.e. For starters, I'm bisexual, I'm a long standing member of the LGBT community and I fully support LGBT rights. I am also not very privileged, without meaning to whine it's only a few months ago I've been able to eat more than once every day or two. Also, how did the 'what about me?' come about? I basically said everyone should be equal by default and then employed based on whether they're good at their job. I'm not even employed myself tbh, I'm still in college, but my friends and family members have repeatedly reported being treated differently in the workplace because they've mentioned at some point they have an interest in the same sex. I dislike this is what I'm saying.

Also I didn't tell anyone not to say it, I just asked if they would mind not using the word like 6 times in two sentences. Like I said, I know it has legitimate iterations, but much of the UK and Europe sees it as an offensive word, so I wanted to request that someone uses another word here and there. If they deny it it's fine, just as long as they understand and consider other cultures. If I kept saying a word other people didn't like, I'd expect them to tell me. I don't see how this is unreasonable.

If you want to add legitimate criticisms or add your own belief to why you disagree that's completely fine. in fact I encourage it, I don't mind being wrong if it means I and other learn. But don't call me out on points that are 100% fictionalised.

Tl:dr Don't call me out if you're just gonna spout shit you can't even back up without and not knowing anything.
 

Myzozoa

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could you please change the way you engage in this thread Fresher Than You

your posts are not really adding anything to the discussion as they are very vague or otherwise difficult to engage with:

Okay so, on the LGBTQ topic but not necessarily in line with the previous discussion. It's been annoying me lately about the automatic anti-intellectual response of genuine and legitimate criticism within or of 'the' community (I quote 'the' because I don't believe at all it's a single community but w/e). There are actual problems and completely integral discussion points to be made but are shrugged off with a 'if you're not with us you're against us' mindset. If you make a single comment about LGBT that isn't 100% 'omg lgbt is awesome' type dealio then you're passed off as a terrible person to be ignored. I am LGBT before anyone does what I described to me, but there are shortcomings within 'the' community that are going completely addressed due to the defensive nature. For a community about being open minded there are people that are really closed.

Btw I'm not pointing out anyone here, it was a discussion point on a stream one day.

What organization or group of lgbtqs doesn't receive criticism well according to you? You're not specific here, you only assert that it's the case that 'the lbtbq community' has a problem. But as Kittenmilk said, 'the lgbtq community' exists on the basis of shared experiences of discrimination (the 'joke' is that we would never have met with our peers in the lgbtq spaces if the administration hadn't pissed on apparent lgbtqs to the point that they needed to get organized), so there is a victim-blaming complex at work whenever someone alleges that 'the lgbtq community' is to blame for its own problems. For example, I agree that some spaces apparently 'for' lgbtq people do not handle criticism well, but I take it on a case by case basis. So, there is a distinction between cases of poor leadership, lack of communication/organization/resources, corporate sponsorship and co-optation, etc. All of these could lead to what seem like poor responses to criticism. And lastly, these spaces are made of people and some people suck. Still, it is rather condescending, imo, to suggest that the broader community doesn't handle criticism well, mainly because I doubt anyone is more critical or more invested in lgbtq politics than lgbtq people. It's really not like people are showing up to these spaces just to find people to sleep with... in my experience. People tend to be very critical when theyre personally invested.

Another thing I see you doing a lot in your posts is referencing phenomena that are not relevant to this thread , such as: everything youve seen on quotev, attempts to regulate the diction of other users, that queer is an offensive term (I actually found that offensive, also low key, this sort of defensive response is an indicator, to me, that you aren't that good at listening to, or in this case, reading, what lgbtq people have to say.), and some really problematic claims about how differences in sexuality should be managed (like it or not it does make a difference, the idea that it somehow can make no difference is only thinkable from a certain perspective, i.e, the perspective for which sexuality actually appears to make no difference: the perspective of the privileged person who moves through a world which caters to them seemlessly already, rendering their desires natural, unmarked, unnoticed. kittenmilk was gesturing at this, too, i think.), and then the odd claims about integration and normalcy. If you read the posts in this thread, you will see many users that are much more awesome than normal people, and who live more ethical, happier, productive, and sustainable lives precisely because they do not integrate into certain oppressive structures and spaces. Like, maybe 'society' should be trying to integrate with us, not the other way around, if that makes any sense. Finally, if you don't think sexuality should be cool or be different or w.e it is, I think the issue is with marketing schemes/capitalism/pinkwashing/structures of society not with an apparent homogenous lgbtq community. Corporations have influence over representation and access to media, but their interests are not necessarily the liberation of queer folks which leads to many messages getting muddled by being taken out of context, or even complete erasures of events, subjects, locations, etc, within the series of partial accounts of the world prepared for waiting consumers by corporate media.

For example, when someone says "I wish as I was as gay as you" it could make sense as the case of the bisexual remarking not-too-seriously about how it is perhaps easier to date men than women or something. shit idk, my point is that you should really chill about whatever people say to each other on w.e, especially if they aren't talking to you. don't be sure you actually understand what they're saying immediately.

tl;dr you kind of take other users' posts without context or bring up things without giving any context, which makes it really hard to feel like you're invested in listening/reading this thread, for me.
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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Excuse me e.e. For starters, I'm bisexual, I'm a long standing member of the LGBT community and I fully support LGBT rights. I am also not very privileged, without meaning to whine it's only a few months ago I've been able to eat more than once every day or two. Also, how did the 'what about me?' come about? I basically said everyone should be equal by default and then employed based on whether they're good at their job. I'm not even employed myself tbh, I'm still in college, but my friends and family members have repeatedly reported being treated differently in the workplace because they've mentioned at some point they have an interest in the same sex. I dislike this is what I'm saying.

Also I didn't tell anyone not to say it, I just asked if they would mind not using the word like 6 times in two sentences. Like I said, I know it has legitimate iterations, but much of the UK and Europe sees it as an offensive word, so I wanted to request that someone uses another word here and there. If they deny it it's fine, just as long as they understand and consider other cultures. If I kept saying a word other people didn't like, I'd expect them to tell me. I don't see how this is unreasonable.

If you want to add legitimate criticisms or add your own belief to why you disagree that's completely fine. in fact I encourage it, I don't mind being wrong if it means I and other learn. But don't call me out on points that are 100% fictionalised.

Tl:dr Don't call me out if you're just gonna spout shit you can't even back up without and not knowing anything.
There's nobody in the LGBT community who is arguing that "gays should be cooler than straights". Or that gays should be treated preferentially in the workplace. Or that gays should be more than equal than straights. Or that they should take over. That's the same kind of tripe that every majority spouted about every minority. If you're really not trolling when you say you're bi (something I had taken into account when I first posted), then you should be telling off your so-called friends.

Which brings into new light your argument on the ability to "criticize" the lgbt community. I don't know how well they take to any criticism, but they certainly don't need to entertain absolute nonsense.

FWI, I'm probably not going to let this argument go on much longer.
 
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could you please change the way you engage in this thread Fresher Than You

your posts are not really adding anything to the discussion as they are very vague or otherwise difficult to engage with:




What organization or group of lgbtqs doesn't receive criticism well according to you? You're not specific here, you only assert that it's the case that 'the lbtbq community' has a problem. But as Kittenmilk said, 'the lgbtq community' exists on the basis of shared experiences of discrimination (the 'joke' is that we would never have met with our peers in the lgbtq spaces if the administration hadn't pissed on apparent lgbtqs to the point that they needed to get organized), so there is a victim-blaming complex at work whenever someone alleges that 'the lgbtq community' is to blame for its own problems. For example, I agree that some spaces apparently 'for' lgbtq people do not handle criticism well, but I take it on a case by case basis. So, there is a distinction between cases of poor leadership, lack of communication/organization/resources, corporate sponsorship and co-optation, etc. All of these could lead to what seem like poor responses to criticism. And lastly, these spaces are made of people and some people suck. Still, it is rather condescending, imo, to suggest that the broader community doesn't handle criticism well, mainly because I doubt anyone is more critical or more invested in lgbtq politics than lgbtq people. It's really not like people are showing up to these spaces just to find people to sleep with... in my experience. People tend to be very critical when theyre personally invested.

Another thing I see you doing a lot in your posts is referencing phenomena that are not relevant to this thread , such as: everything youve seen on quotev, attempts to regulate the diction of other users, that queer is an offensive term (I actually found that offensive, also low key, this sort of defensive response is an indicator, to me, that you aren't that good at listening to, or in this case, reading, what lgbtq people have to say.), and some really problematic claims about how differences in sexuality should be managed (like it or not it does make a difference, the idea that it somehow can make no difference is only thinkable from a certain perspective, i.e, the perspective for which sexuality actually appears to make no difference: the perspective of the privileged person who moves through a world which caters to them seemlessly already, rendering their desires natural, unmarked, unnoticed. kittenmilk was gesturing at this, too, i think.), and then the odd claims about integration and normalcy. If you read the posts in this thread, you will see many users that are much more awesome than normal people, and who live more ethical, happier, productive, and sustainable lives precisely because they do not integrate into certain oppressive structures and spaces. Like, maybe 'society' should be trying to integrate with us, not the other way around, if that makes any sense. Finally, if you don't think sexuality should be cool or be different or w.e it is, I think the issue is with marketing schemes/capitalism/pinkwashing/structures of society not with an apparent homogenous lgbtq community. Corporations have influence over representation and access to media, but their interests are not necessarily the liberation of queer folks which leads to many messages getting muddled by being taken out of context, or even complete erasures of events, subjects, locations, etc, within the series of partial accounts of the world prepared for waiting consumers by corporate media.

For example, when someone says "I wish as I was as gay as you" it could make sense as the case of the bisexual remarking not-too-seriously about how it is perhaps easier to date men than women or something. shit idk, my point is that you should really chill about whatever people say to each other on w.e, especially if they aren't talking to you. don't be sure you actually understand what they're saying immediately.

tl;dr you kind of take other users' posts without context or bring up things without giving any context, which makes it really hard to feel like you're invested in listening/reading this thread, for me.
I see your point, sorry for being vague, I'm not a very good writer and it's hard for me to get my point across sometimes. In terms of the community, I specifically mean the community that I see, hear and read about both in real life and on various social media. I highly doubt it is a true representative portion but it was enough to make a comment before it spiralled out of control. It was my original intention to just make one post then leave. My bad on being vague. Also are they difficult to engage in? Well obviously since you said, but I assumed that the intellectual nature of the thread would mean that anyone with an opinion could make conversation? Again if this is not the case that's also my bad. I didn't mind to derail anything, I thought it was in good nature, but apparently not.

A lot of the points I made were supposed to be non-specific points to highlight an issue, I didn't expect to be asked to expand upon them, all though I should have and it's again my fault.

Despite my fault and things I got wrong I still don't accept any harassment (not you, you're very helpful). I realise I must look like an asshat by now but I'm serious about my contribution either intellectually or otherwise, I sincerely did not mean to cause any disruption. But I'd appreciate it if you told your associates the same, I don't want to start and argument but if I'm attacked I'll defend myself.

Anyway, if I slip again please do call me out, I don't want to cause any more issues and I won't be replying here again for some time to let anythign I may have stirred simmer down.
 
There's nobody in the LGBT community who is arguing that "gays should be cooler than straights". Or that gays should be treated preferentially in the workplace. Or that gays should be more than equal than straights. Or that they should take over. That's the same kind of tripe that every majority spouted about every minority. If you're really not trolling when you say you're bi (something I had taken into account when I first posted), then you should be telling off your so-called friends.

Which brings into new light the ability to "criticize" the lgbt community. I don't know how well they take to any criticism, but they certainly don't need to entertain absolute nonsense.

FWI, I'm probably not going to let this argument go on much longer.
I'll make a quick comment before heading off, I don't want an argument anymore than you. There are examples of LGBT popularisation, enough examples for people I've never talked to before or since have the same or similar experiences as me. If many people completely unrelated to my own experiences has noticed the same issue, then it's an issue worth saying something about. Again, it probably isn't even close to being any sort of representation, but it's still enough to say 'hey people are doing this and I find it kind of silly in my opinion'. I got my words fumbled up there, which I take blame for, but I still believe my sentiment to be correct.

Also my original point in this thread is that much of the community (that I have been in either noticed or been in contact with, to be clear) don't take criticism well. I just used an example that came up in a livestream some few days ago and that I noticed myself. I convultated that in later posts but I made this clear in the first post.

I am seriously bisexual btw, I'm not trolling. I don't confront any friends about this directly because I don't wanna start things but they all know my disapproval of bad behaviour towards anyone. Also if any of them down right harasses anyone else for any reason I take that as a personal offence.

Tl;Dr No I'm not trolling and sorry for making vague points, but hopefully this clarified things. Sorry about swearing at you earlier, that was immature of me.
 

Bughouse

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I'm not a fan of the use of the word queer because it is most often used to lump together both gender and sexual minorities, who face vastly different situations. (read: gender minorities have it, generally, worse.) I don't really think there are many, if any, all-encompassing "queer issues." It's a term that pretends to be nice but in reality just beats around the bush.
 
I think there are plenty of issues common to all "queer" identities, particularly social/"non-legislative" inequality like statistically being susceptible to violence/murder/homelessness but you could apply that line of thought to any minority group
 

KM

slayification
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I'm not a fan of the use of the word queer because it is most often used to lump together both gender and sexual minorities, who face vastly different situations. (read: gender minorities have it, generally, worse.) I don't really think there are many, if any, all-encompassing "queer issues." It's a term that pretends to be nice but in reality just beats around the bush.
I made a similar post on this subject about two pages ago, but essentially I'd argue that much of the discrimination directed towards sexual minorities is directed from an attack on their failure to conform to the ideals of their gender, of which "having sex with the 'wrong' people" is only one facet. Support for this includes the fact that many anti-sexual minority slurs are based in a notion of gender, as well as the fact that "straight-gay" sexual-minorities (e.g. people who are sexual minorities but largely conform to all other heteronormative and cisnormative societal ideals) experience far less oppression and are often ignorantly held up as the example of "how gay people should be".

Despite the fact that words like "gay" or "lesbian" only denotatively describe who the object of the word wants to have sex with, both words are used with weighted gender implications too, or used to explain away deviations from gender norms. As someone who is both gay and "gay", having the word queer allows me to describe myself in an academic setting in a way that isn't reductive.

There's also a fairly strong historical argument to be made, as many organically evolving LGBT subcultures included both marginalized groups and specifically included sexual minorities who also significantly deviated from gender norms (ex: the ball culture of the 1980s and 90s, which largely catered to ftm trans people, drag queens, and "gay" gay people.

To me, the fact that gender and sexuality are largely intersecting in this manner is reason enough to keep them linked. Realistically, these issues are often dealt with in conjunction, and I'd probably go as far as to say that sexuality is just one subtype of gender nonconformity that has evolved to have specific language (in a similar but much more extreme way than how we have specific identifying words for gender expression through clothes e.g. "crossdresser" "metrosexual" "drag queen/king").
 

Bughouse

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The fact that sexual minorities hear slurs that are fundamentally gender-based is massively missing the point. Even putting aside the disproportionately higher rates of being victim to homicide... or homelessness... or joblessness... the day to day life of a trans person is just worse than a LGB person. Slurs are not remotely the same thing as the daily abuse gender minorities face.

For example, a friend of mine was stopped by TSA today. Then the agent, in front of my friend, said that she needed another agent to come over because "I don't want to clear this." Another friend (who btw has also faced TSA abuse - frankly I don't know of a trans person who HASN'T been demeaned in an airport) still is enrolled at her university as Michael, so all correspondence, grades, student health, etc say Michael, even though she has been identifying as a woman for 3 years now and has been undergoing various forms of hormone therapy. They won't change the name. This means for every single class she takes, the roster lists her as Michael, and so she has to have that conversation with every single professor she has.

Let me know when sexual minorities face such debasing treatment on a daily basis and I'll reconsider my opinion of lumping everything together as "queer" issues. Gays want to not get fired (but hey let's abandon trans people in ENDA in order to ensure at least gays can get protected first) and be able to marry (check), and guarantee that all bakers have to make wedding cakes for those weddings. Trans people want to be treated with basic decency. Not much of a comparison there.
 
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