1. The moderators of this forum are shade, Blazade, GatoDelFuego, Martin, and vonFiedler.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Serious LGBTQ

Discussion in 'Congregation of the Masses' started by Chinchou, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. dwarfstar

    dwarfstar mindless philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    800
    I'm too tired and too stoned to get into the Adichie thing tonight, but with regard to what Josh is asking, yes, it really is that big a deal and I think Varner deserved what he got. Being outed as trans (whether they're living as their own gender or still presenting as the one they were assigned at birth) is liable to fuck up someone's life in a whole bunch of massive ways, including but not limited to social ostracization, loss of a job, and physical violence even going as far as murder, depending on the situation that specific person is in. If we're not out prior to transition, or in many cases even post-transition, there's very real and very serious risks involved in being outed before we've taken whatever steps we can to prepare for that materially and psychologically, particularly for trans women (I know Zeke isn't one but that's info people need to know). What Varner did to Zeke could have been dangerous even just around the people on the show, let alone with his secret being revealed to half the country. And hey, adding insult to injury, it's also just really disrespectful to disregard someone's autonomy like that. As a gay man who also had to come out once, Varner should have known better on both counts, so if anything it's WORSE than it would be coming from a cishet person (which would already have been terrible). Maybe my status as a trans woman who isn't out to the whole world yet makes me ~biased~ or some shit but I feel like the fallout for Varner is no worse than he deserves
    Robert Alfons likes this.
  2. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Secret Boss Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,221
    No one deserves to have their life destroyed over what they say, especially if it wasn't particularly heinous. Sure, being outed isn't ever cool and people who do it deserve flak, but no one should have their life/job crumple from something like that; it's not like he made death threats or ruined Zeke's life, and do you know how I know that? Because it isn't Zeke that's getting chastised or shunned for being outed, it's Varner that had done the outing. So no, he did not deserve what he got.
  3. dwarfstar

    dwarfstar mindless philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    800
    The point isn't "did it turn out all right for Zeke", the point is that Varner acted with a reckless disregard for the potential ramifications of his actions at BEST, and outright malice at worst. I can't claim to know which of the two it was — I ain't in this dude's head — but it damn well COULD have ruined Zeke's life, and it's down to good fortune that it didn't go down that way. Varner did something shitty and potentially dangerous to another person, and it backfired on him hard. I consider that a good thing.

    EDIT: And yeah, elcheeso's right, a big share of the responsibility should rest on the shoulders of the producers who decided to air it
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  4. Zentrius

    Zentrius

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    145
    varner explained that he assumed zeke was out because the season is being branded as game changers, and zeke's first season was the previous one. nobody knew him because while his original season was airing, season 34 was being filmed. so he thought he was brought back as a game changer bc of his situation.

    my issue is that, ok, u thought he was out and all, but the fact that he thought his assumption of being out and proud would justify still outing him to 6 other people at best is kind of a big deal.
  5. elcheeso

    elcheeso
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    954
    Frankly, I think Varner is a shit for outing him, but I consider the people who make the show the ones who were truly responsible for it. They made it go from a thing that was localised to 6 people to something seen or heard about by millions. They had the chance to can the entire thing to prevent the guy from being outed to the world to who knows what effect, but opted against it because they most likely thought it would get attention back on their show. That's the really fucked up thing here. TV executives are douchebags, news at 11.
  6. Josh

    Josh =P
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mafia Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,337
    varner himself said it was a fair edit. zeke did not kick up a fuss about it and said he knew going onto survivor he might have to deal with it. they could not can the entire thing because it directly led to massive discussion and more importantly to the (lack of a) vote. it's not fair to blame the show.
  7. Zentrius

    Zentrius

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    145
    i would agree, but it was literally not possible to not show it. the entire voting phase revolved around it and the unique lack of voting was the direct result of it.
  8. dwarfstar

    dwarfstar mindless philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    800
    It's a reality show, the whole setup is staged anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't watch the show), but I was under the impression they could have redone the round from scratch or whatever so they'd have something to air (and if they had to delay broadcasting for a while, then so be it). Making sure their original setup goes off without a hitch should be secondary to safety concerns for the participants, and this qualifies as a safety concern.
  9. Josh

    Josh =P
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mafia Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,337
    no, it's not really staged. survivor is one of the least rigged reality shows out there. they couldn't redo it, it's an ongoing social game and faking a second tribal council is incredibly unrealistic. tribal actually lasts a couple hours and they only air a small part of it, but this directly resulted in the lack of a vote and therefore had to be shown. there was nothing realistic the show could or should have done to hide it. again, zeke himself said he knew this (not particularly this situation but people finding out he was rrans) was a risk he acknowledged and it didn't ruin his survivor experience. it's not staged and there's no round to redo from scratch.
    Mova likes this.
  10. Cynara

    Cynara
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    539
    Hello,

    I don't really post in these kinds of threads, but I feel I need to do this for myself, I have finally built up the courage to do so, because I don't want to live in a lie anymore. I would like to give a special thanks to anto and Chloe. for being very supportive of me and making this possible, especially Anto for always being there and always having my back regardless, Love Anto.

    I am a Transgender female named Sarah, for the past 5 years roughly I have suffered with my gender identity and dysphoria trying to figure out who I am, over the past recent months I finally discovered my true self and being a girl is what makes me happy and I finally learnt to accept the girl I am. In most of my dreams I am a Girl and when I look in the mirror, I see a girl, not Daniel, as everyone perceives me as, I just want to be female. For all friends out there and anyone else reading this post, I would like to be referred to by female pronouns from now on.

    Coming out to my mother was extremely hard and after a long discussion she was accepting of who I wanted to be and she is happy for me, one of her colleagues at work is transgender, so her understanding my situation was probably a tad easier, but I wasn't sure how she would take it from her own child, I feel like telling my parents is the true initial step to openly accept who I am, and that's why I am writing this post. I am very glad I don't have to tell my father as I know he would not take it very greatly, luckily my parents are divorced and he hasn't been in my life for over 14 years, telling my other members of family is gonna be a huge challenge for me I am scared of how they will take they will take it, but I feel that's natural, I'm very concerned about coming out to the older generations of my family such as my grandparents as they hold older beliefs which are not really shared in today's society.

    To be quite honest I was more fearful of telling one of my closest friends and it was another step I had to make, I was frightened that I'd lose my closest friendship, but now I feel I felt extremely silly thinking that... as they were extremely supportive and happy for me and that really lit up my day.

    In the past I have had some very depressive episodes of being unclear of my gender identity,that was to be expected and I fought through all of it, but I am sure now things will definitely improve after accepting who I am, I'm sure I will still experience some upsetting moments, but I feel reassured that I have people to comfort me whenever needed.

    Never be afraid of your true self, no matter what that may be.

    Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

    - Sarah
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    Sondero, Earth, Joyverse and 65 others like this.
  11. dwarfstar

    dwarfstar mindless philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    800
    Question for other trans folks (especially fellow trans girls but it's open to anyone who feels like contributing): anyone else here go through that progression of questioning --> realizing you were trans --> coming out in a really short time? That's how things worked out for me (I haven't really identified with masculinity for a couple years now, but I didn't start seriously questioning till last June due to some deep-ass conditioning, realized for sure I was trans in October, and then came out publicly to pretty much everyone I know via Facebook on election night at the end of a drunken rant about the necessity of fighting neo-Nazis and crushing fascist movements). I figure statistically speaking there's gotta be at least a few, but I don't think I've met any other "quick-change artists" in a situation like mine. And for those of you who had similar experiences, did that change the way people treated you or interacted with you if you told them the full story? Most of the people I associate with have been loving and accepting regardless but there's a couple cases where I feel it made a difference as to whether people believed me or how they've adjusted to my new identity.

    If I'm overstepping my bounds or making anyone feel uncomfortable, let me know and I'll delete this post. Just wanted to know how my experiences stacked up with those of others cos it's kinda been gnawing at me lately.
    Yato-Bunny likes this.
  12. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa I did then what I knew. Now that I know better, I do better.
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    2,260
    cw:ablism, depression, addiction
    https://monomaniacism.com/2017/04/16/dont-tell-me-youre-queer/

    "
    Show me your queerness with care and with actions. In the ways you take up space, and the ways you support the spaces of others that are not intended for you. Show me your queerness in the questions that you ask, because of course you would ask directions before walking the roadmap of another person’s body, before you would increase someone else’s risk profile by kissing them on the street. Show me your queerness in the way you think and analyze how you move through the world, through the way you claim your desire as your own, and not an expectation on my body. Show me your queerness with that complicated look behind your eyes that is the struggle inherent in the language and history, in the understanding that this is not a word that can be claimed and held lightly.

    Queerness is not any one of these things, does not exist in a vacuum, cannot be defined in a word or a phrase plucked out of context, but it the compilation of movement and thought, analysis and perspective, fucking and fighting, angry, quiet, afraid yet still unwilling to be anything other that exactly who we are."

    https://soundcloud.com/letstoastpod...o-rejecting-the-apology-feat-sasanka-jinadasa
    I'm paraphrasing a clip from this and don't claim to be familiar with much of the podcast or to have listened to the whole thing, but gold near the beginning:
    (if you continue listening past the beginning it gets into violence against black bodies real quick)
    "
    I want to say upfront that my pronouns are they/them/theirs.

    I mis-gender myself daily: how is that for 'unapologetic'? Sorry: socialization is real.

    If you call me she/her, it's okay... like if you can't figure out they/them, I don't bite."

    actually the whole thing is gold
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    dice likes this.
  13. BenTheDemon

    BenTheDemon Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    I know people are gonna accuse me of being a flip flopper for this, but so be it:

    So, I've always been critical of the idea of genders beyond male and female. I had accepted the science of some people being transgender, since some people have a ratio of testosterone to estrogen that doesn't match their genitalia, so I accepted that on a Scientific basis. However, after this recent debacle with Bill Nye and his statements on gender, I've been bombarded with videos either agreeing or disagreeing with him, some being very vocal. Because of this, I looked into the issue and discovered that I had always thought of gender the wrong way. I had never thought of gender as as a social construct. Some things are masculine. Some things are feminine. I always knew this, but never tied that to the idea of gender. The whole idea of what we know as gender never really felt important to me. I never gave a shit whether I was male or female, and because of this, I never really considered how feminine I really am. I liked to cross dress growing up, despite huge disapproval from my parents. But I never really felt compelled to identify as a woman. At the same time, though, I never felt compelled to identify myself as a man. I just kinda did it by default, because I have a penis, but my male and female tendencies are basically equal.
    So I now question whether or not I'm genderfluid. Going by the definitions, what I read on genderfuidity seems to describe me quite well. I've always said that I'm male, but I never felt strongly one way or the other. I now question whether I was right to just default to my genitalia. I feel like not giving a shit about social norms in general is why I never felt it worth looking into my true gender. I like whiskey, guns, and pussy. But I also like my hair, shoe shopping, makeup, and dick. Is Pansexuality a sign that I may be genderfluid?

    Pardon my huge ineloquence, but this is my semi-coming out post. I'm not explicitly saying that I'm genderfluid, but I'm not really sure, so maybe I am.

    Please don't get mad if I got this all wrong. I came to this conclusion after like 10 minutes of reading definitions.
    Total Clefairy and pancake like this.
  14. dwarfstar

    dwarfstar mindless philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    800
    You could very well be genderfluid — that's not a question I'm qualified to answer on account of me not being in your head — but interests and sexual orientation don't really have anything to do with your gender identity. Taking me as an example, more of my interests and mannerisms are stereotypically masculine than feminine, and I'm much more strongly and more commonly attracted to women / feminine-presenting people than I am into men / masculine-presenting people, but I have come to the conclusion that I am a woman and I'm more sure of that than I have been of pretty much anything else in my life. Your gender is a product of your own feelings and experiences and how you move through the world, and unfortunately there's no hard and fast indicators or universal boxes to check off that can cut that questioning period short.

    What I can tell you, however, is that everybody goes through that period of questioning whether they may be genderfluid or transgender or nonbinary or whatever else in their own time and at their own pace. That process has gotta start somewhere, as it apparently has here with you, and however long it takes you to figure it out is fine and doesn't make the end result any less valid. Could be something you figure out more or less immediately, could take you a few months like it did for me to figure out I was transgender, could take a couple years, but whatever the case may be, nobody can make that determination for you or dictate who you are except you. Don't let anyone give you shit for it, and remember there's a community here willing to support you and help you work through it if you need. Good luck!
  15. Demoness

    Demoness

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,283
    Oh hey look, this thread is still up, thats kinda neat

    Think I told this thread that i was transgender like, over 3 years ago, or something like that? Not expecting anyone to actually remember that, but what i will say is this: Holy shit can stuff change in 3 years. Like, drastically fucking change. Can still kinda rememeber how reserved and scared I was when trying to think and talk about it because I didn't think anyone would actually care, or worse, would be shitty assholes to me because yay fear!

    Anyway, as for whats changed in those years, I've gone from being like "I'm 100% a girl in every single way, and thats my gender" to just more... laid back about it in a way? Like, to the point that i guess i could see myself as being more non-binary the anything else, but also still like to be called a girl and woman and all that other stuff. Also, don't really have any issues with my voice, which is surprising, considering how many other trans people I know do have noticeable distress from it. Guess i'm just lucky on that front. And also haven't started hormones because also, fear and stress and worry about how it would screw over attempts to get a job, and also parents i'm fairly sure wouldn't really approve all that much. It's juts kinda a shitshow in all honesty.

    Eh, i know i'll be able to start them eventually, just want to get kind of settled down and actually not in my parents home ideally and with other trans people so I can have some legit support on that end. Also get my legal name chnaged at the same time, which could help some too

    (also would be nice to have the name of this account changed too because of what it represents to me personally, but *shrug*)

    edit: well, got the forum name change now at least :3
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  16. Cynara

    Cynara
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    539
    Been a month since I came out and finally found it in me to come out to the majority of my friends so thats a good step forward for me.

    Questioning was definately a big part of it all. I'd say I strongly started to question it around late 19, when I had this dream that I woke up and was female, that was tipping point for me... it hit me really hard and I started to see myself as a girl more and more. This was during Uni and I would have dropped out without meeting someone who is now an amazing friend of mine (anto), I was so depressed and unhappy with myself, I would spend all night thinking about it sometimes, among other Irl issues, I could not sleep half the time. I was very convinced that I wanted to be a girl.

    I did note I have questioned myself in the past 5 years around Late 16 yrs old, was when I mildly seriously started to question myself though I threw it in denial and tried to not think much of it and I think my initial denial was what made it so much longer than It had to be.

    Realising I was Transgender was a huge thing for me, it was a lot to take in, but it made me feel happy, it made me feel ALIVE, I stared to realise and become accepting in the past 7 months, I felt I HAD to come out to people so I guess my experiences reflect what you're asking. 5 years questioning, 7 months realising and in the last 6 weeks, finally coming out to people and its amazing how accepting people really are.

    Thanks for asking these questions, Im more than happy to be open about my experiences as much as I am happy about being open about Transfemale, coming out and being open has really turned my life around for the better.

    P.s: I bought some slipper boots for myself in the womens section on the weekend!!
  17. Stocke

    Stocke

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Messages:
    370
    I've had the gender option on my account set to "female" for awhile now, but I figured I should probably take a post out to come out as a trans girl; while I don't think that I'd ever identified particularly strongly as male, I passively accepted it for my entire life until a couple years ago when a friend coming out to me made me realize that there was something else I could be. From then it took me up until a few months ago to come to certainty that I was indeed a girl, but I came out to some of my friends on other sites as well as my parents only a short time after that because I knew that trying to keep it in for too long wouldn't have been of benefit to me. Fortunately, especially considering I live in a fairly conservative area overall, my parents are wonderful and accepted me for who I am without hesitation, with my mother getting me some feminine clothing (plus giving me a few of her items that were too small now) and a bit of makeup, the former of which is definitely helping me out a lot at the moment; I'm hoping they'll be able to find a supportive therapist soon too, though that might be hard given the area's aforementioned conservatism.

    The name I chose for myself is Lauren. There's no particular story behind why I chose this name, although I've always liked the name and I think part of the reason why I like it might be because I had a friend whose name was Lauren when I was very young.
  18. dice

    dice

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,361
    i've been seeing this pop up in queer spaces & dating apps, probably as a defense mechanism in order to act more Enlightened and Cultured, but being a 'sapiosexual' does not exist & is rooted in settler colonialism, ableism, and classism so plz don't use that term thx
  19. Demoness

    Demoness

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,283
    Oh holy shit, sapiosexual. It's just a term for basically shitty people to try and seem as though they are better and higher up then anyone they consider "not intelligent", which is such an inherently ableist statement, and is also rooted in other disgusting shit, considering the people who do use it (pretty much shitty white people). Like, the literal only good thing about it is that ithelps serve as a pretty clear signal that said person is a huge asshole who we should just flat out avoid entirely.

    Yeah, like Dice said, don't use it please. it's a garbage and disgusting thing in like, every way
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
    Tortferngatr, dwarfstar and Stocke like this.
  20. dice

    dice

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,361
    phrases to remove from ur vocabulary:

    'preferred pronouns'
    dwarfstar, Demoness and Myzozoa like this.
  21. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte and at once I knew I was not magnificent
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,280
    Hey yall.

    So I havent been on this thread or this website in a while but shit has happened to me irl and I wanted to share some wisdom with all of you. Hopefully you will never ever have to use it but if this helps somebody or saves a life I'll be glad too.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/pep.html

    Being a closeted gay male my whole life I wasnt really well educated in what to expect in a homosexual sexual context and I made the mistake of hooking up with someone I didn't know, unprotected. Obviously lesson #1 from this is always be careful and wear goddamn protection (or better yet, get to know a bitch before you open your legs for them), but lesson #2 is to go to any doctor you can find AS SOON AS you realize your mistake and get PEP if you're not sure of the HIV status of the person you hooked up with (in my case he was fairly trustworthy and said he was clean, but a bitch can never be sure). It is a fairly effective drug when it comes to stopping HIV infection, but it only works if taken soon after exposure and correctly for the 28 days. I took it religiously and my one month test so far is negative. Im crossing my fingers for 3 months. The wait will be long.

    I've come to terms with my own idiotry. People make mistakes, but the important thing afterwards is to do all you can to minimize the risk for consequences. Know your options, do your research, and talk to a doctor to do everything you can to ensure your safety. Thankfully, I haven't had to face any consequences as of now (hopefully I won't ever have to), besides severe anxiety and minor depression from the worrying. But it's better than actually getting something.

    Also! If you are sexually active or thinking of becoming sexually active, get in the habit of getting routine checkups. A lot of dangerous shit can stir up without ever showing outward symptoms so it's best to always be aware and in control of your condition.

    Be safe my friends


    PS Also important part of this post I forgot, pertaining to situations (like mine) where you still aren't out to your parents:

    I was lucky enough to be away at university at the time. So I managed to keep my doctors visits under the radar by playing them off as a Mono scare (not TOO much of a lie anyway) and then borrowing money from people to pay for the medication in cash. If youre worried about outing yourself, remember that your insurance providers are legally obligated to hide medication information from your parents once you become an adult (for most US states, anyway). They also have to keep secret the purposes of your doctor'/ visits, but for some providers (like horizon blue cross blue shield) you must manually fill out a form preventing legal guardians from accessing that information if you want to keep all explanations of benefits secret.

    Also, the PEP medication I linked above is EXPENSIVE. Mine cost $180, with insurance, for Truvada and Isentress to last a month. Luckily the guy paid for it for me (which was shady at first but still pretty nice of him), and without insurance it can easily be hundreds. But, there are certain organizations tht help people access it for free if they cant pay for it; definitely talk to your doctor about that if it becomes a problem.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  22. doublenikesocks

    doublenikesocks

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    278
    Hey all, I'm not sure if asexual counts as LGBTQ at all so feel free to redirect me if need be, but I've recently come out as ace to a few friends, and I'm wondering if I should to my parents as well. They're pretty conservative and Catholic so the questions on how I found out that about myself would be awk, but I think they'd be understanding. Anyone got any tips or experiences about this? Thanks.
    Lina, Isa and TheValkyries like this.
  23. EV

    EV General
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    PS Policy Head

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,152
    Using "clean" to describe someone's neg HIV status (or any disease, really) is derogatory to a lot of people living with HIV. Does that make HIV+ people "dirty?" (Just sharing from first-hand experience I have with friends living with HIV.)
    Mq and Electrolyte like this.
  24. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,578
    While "negative" is definitely a safer word, "clean bill of health" and other expressions equating health with cleanliness date back hundreds of years. I don't think saying "I'm clean" is offensive, but saying "people with HIV are dirty" definitely is. Clean is a convenient one word term with linguistic history to sum up your HIV and STI status.

    Idk, I don't read into the implications that if neg=clean=good then poz=dirty=bad too much. To me this is a case of people who want to be offended reading in meaning where none is intended by most who use the word.

    To me it's like how a dwarf can rightfully be offended by "midget," since a midget is an insect that bites. But now maybe they also get offended by the term one-size-fits-all because it doesn't fit them. It's a term that applies to the majority of people, describes that majority in a non-derogatory way, but because there is a minority, they infer that, since they're not in that non-derogatory majority description, their group's description must be derogatory.
  25. EV

    EV General
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    PS Policy Head

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,152
    (apologies if this was discussed earlier but I didn't see it in the last few pages)

    What are your thoughts on the new pride flag introduced in Philadelphia?

    [​IMG]

    If you're not familiar with the news/controversy, here's an article on NBC about it - http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/controversy-flies-over-philadelphia-s-new-pride-flag-n772821

    I've seen a lot of push back on Facebook from fellow white gay men about the flag. In particular, most of them are saying something like "the flag already includes everyone, you don't need your own stripes," which is countered with "but we don't feel included" by PoC. (pardon the generalization)

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)