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Serious LGBTQ

Discussion in 'Congregation of the Masses' started by Chinchou, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. Demoness

    Demoness

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    Or, and here's a radical though apparently, maybe he can take what we said on what he is saying being transphobic and garbage lip service and actually re-evaluate what he thinks. His wording very much just perpetuates that trans woman/girls are unnatural things, which is pretty damn garbage to let out when you're trying to pretend you actually care about trans people in general tbh. Why is it such a horrible thing that i got angry at that? Am I supposed to just sit there and not get angry at all at people just casually dehumanizing and othering us like that? Be a good little trans girl that doesn't get mad at shit cis boys saying garbage things and just coddle them? Hell, i would consider my response restrained actually compared to how much I could've torn into them, and Seraph's was more calm then mine, but nope, apparently too harsh and jumping down his throat.

    Like, why do we need to be respectful and meek towards "potential allies" who just casually dehumanize us like that? Thats frankly really insulting to say at all to a group that is dealing with bigotry that gets them fucking killed.
    Mymble, Mowtom, Isa and 7 others like this.
  2. TheValkyries

    TheValkyries proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE

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    Yeah it's almost funny how bughouse you bring up violence against trans women to try and downplay the importance of us challenging this guys bad ideas about all of this, when quite often violence against transwomen is the result of men who cannot handle their actual real attraction to trans women because they hold beliefs like the ones being talked about here. They lash out at trans women for being threats to their straightness because god forbid a straight man is attracted to a woman.
    Mymble, Stocke, Myzozoa and 2 others like this.
  3. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    If you don't get the difference between changing the tone of your criticism and communication vs not criticizing at all, then I can't help you
  4. Demoness

    Demoness

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    Well, good to know that being kind of angry at shitty cis boy apparently invalidates everything we say, and makes it okay to ignore it. Maybe he and you can learn to not double down and actually take criticism from the very people that have issues here, and are actually affected by what he says.

    Edit at below: How is fucking dating not a serious issue for trans people? How is being worried and afraid of trying to start a relationship or date someone because you have to take in the possibility they will fucking kill you out of rage due to being trans not a serious worry? It fucking happens a good amount of the time. I can already tell you know jack fucking shit about trans issues because that is one that is kinda common.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
    Marjane, Mymble, TheValkyries and 2 others like this.
  5. MaceMaster

    MaceMaster

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    About the normalization of queer people: we're not normal. Define normal as "typical or expected." The average person is straight and cisgender. Queer people are therefore not normal. Note that normal does NOT mean non-human, or exemplify badness in any way. Sure, a good long-term relationship isn't based solely on sex. But maybe that's not what BlackMalachite is looking for. The man wants to have sex with someone who has a vagina, and that isn't transphobic. Some of you expressed displeasure on Bughouse's views of focusing on the real problems rather than dating. Let me use this metaphor: let's say we use 1 million dollars to help cut down on pollution in the US, which has relatively clear air - clean, but not perfect. We only cut down on the pollution index by less than .1%. Now let's say we spend that money to help with pollution in Beijing. The money would make a massive difference! Similarly, by focusing on people who suffer minor social injustices is silly. Our attention should be on those who are really suffering transphobia.
  6. TheValkyries

    TheValkyries proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE

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    "Your personality sufferings don't actually matter until someone violent attacks you based on attitudes that are the cause of your personal sufferings."

    Jesus why why why why why do people insist on tone policing us for getting mad at people who are trying to pretend being "not normal" doesn't have any negative connotations to it that's it's strictly a classification thing. Why is this an acceptable tone? Polite condescension that insists your existence and problems are meaningless is upholding decorum therefore it's a ok nobody's feelings are hurt. But being mad at or pointing out how fucked up those types of things are could make Potential Ally over here get upset and then he won't listen to us. Oh nooooo.

    Tone policing is bad stop doing it. Every time you get the urge to do it instead tell yourself to eat an ice cream sandwich.

    And for the people who feel they are being attacked try and think why what you're saying could make someone feel bad enough to be angry. Reflect on your own words before thinking about theirs.
  7. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Interesting. But why are you assuming a zero sum game? Queer Issues isn't the federal budget. I can care about the real issues (as you so put it) and also care about subtle everyday aggression too. Everyone's oppression is different. Its a matter of taking a stance. Why is there this arbitrarily low radius of concern? What is so silly about wanting to live life with the social security and mental peace that binary people have access to?
    Mova, Hourai, Stocke and 4 others like this.
  8. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    because there is in fact limited political capital. You can only advocate for so many things, especially in the face of a majority that is at best indifferent and at worst antipathetic to our concerns.

    And there's a serious hypocrisy here too. The same people who can't stand me saying focus on trans violence not trans dating were saying OMG STOP USING TIME FOCUSING ON GAY MARRIAGE for the past decade. You clearly like telling other people what to focus on, but can't stand being given the same advice yourself.
  9. Isa

    Isa CHINGUYA
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    this isnt focusing on transdating, this is responding to someone else

    this was a guy that came in uninvited to a thread and shared transphobia within the context of dating. i find it entirely reasonable to respond critically of his views. yes tone can be important but if you believe the tone is more important to the discussion than the message i disagree with that view
    Robert Alfons, Mymble, Mowtom and 8 others like this.
  10. Demoness

    Demoness

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    ah, yes, i forgot that trans people never ever experience violence when they try and date, and shitty cis guy's comments and wording totally doesn't contribute to it in anyway at all.
    TheValkyries and Stocke like this.
  11. TheValkyries

    TheValkyries proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE

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    Didn't I already outline that the attitudes surrounding the transphobia you say is minor and only affecting dating is intrinsically linked to the violence committed. That it stems from "straight" male pride and ego and the inability to cope with being attracted to trans women? Was that a different thread?

    And yes there's limited political capital so we should spend it on the attitudes that source problems not in an endless war that treats symptoms but not the disease. Don't ever confuse the goals of activism for LGBTQ rights as simply being the stop gaps and immediate gains to secure rights to exist as we are. I don't know about the people who told you to not focus on Gay Marriage but I know that for a great many in the LGBTQ community, their activism ended when that right was achieved. And that attitude will mean a return of homophobia in the future unless we keep pushing after and challenging the harmful ideas and not just pretending that these problems are just bizarre random occurances. Trans Women aren't being attacked at such a high rate just for funsies there's actual systemic reasons for it and that needs to be diagnosed and addressed wherever possible in an effort to prevent the attitudes that cause the harm and violence.
  12. dice

    dice

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    this is such a false equivalence in order to justify your ambivalence towards trans issues. this indifference toward gay marriage for many is in part due to the fact that it doesn't attack or eliminate injustice; instead, it just endows more privileged people access to an institution that many see as flawed. there is way more nuance than you're suggesting to this argument--many people have promoted alternates of livelihood and prosperity under the tentacles of white supremacy, settler colonialism, et al. many have interrogated what it means to love outside of these boundaries. many have questioned the construction of love. many have questioned the ways we organise our love.

    given that many of these problems are a result of the institutionalisation of marriage as a whole, it is only natural that people veered away from how it was promoted by liberal actors, especially as the End All Be All of queer oppression. trans dating, on the other hand, affects almost every trans person in the country. it is perfectly acceptable to devote 'limited political capital' (lol thank u for this fearmongering) to causes which aren't 'of the most importance'. in the case of marriage, critiques by radical queers weren't because marriage was seen as a 'lesser issue', but because its enactment only benefited certain bodies and its roots were in reifying capitalist, patriarchal, et al. structures.

    you aren't in a position to stop others from advocating for culturally less desirable bodies. liberals: get the fuck out. thank u
    Mowtom and Myzozoa like this.
  13. Squarewalker

    Squarewalker

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    Honestly, some random insecure man being attracted to me from distance on the street or somewhere (especially if I don´t even see them) and then him clocking me is one of the scariest things for me. They don´t have to date a trans woman without knowing, they can already just get really angry and violent due to not being able to come to terms with having just been attracted to a random trans woman from distance whom they kept creepily inspecting until she or they were walking closer (because obviously women only exist as public property for straight men´s satisfaction to oogle at as much as they desire, right? /s ), thanks to internalized homophobia/transphobia.

    I pass at a quick glance, I´ve used the women´s bathroom without problems, but lately when I was going somewhere by train, this usually crowded train station only had 3 middle age macho construction workers who evidently kept staring at me, when suddenly one of them shouted "OH MY FUCKING GOD, WHAT THE FUCK. IS THAT A FUCKING MAN?" and then all 3 of them kept shouting "FAAAAAAAAAAAG" at me. There were no security guards or video cameras or other people being present there at the time, it was still long until the train came. I haven´t felt so physically unsafe in my life. I quickly walked as far away from them as possible, they thankfully didn´t follow me. I haven´t gone out alone in girlmode ever since then, and when doing so while with others, men stare and then laugh at me when they clock me.

    Funnily enough, whenever I am in boymode flamboyantly, people don´t give a shit, they couldn´t care less about an apparently gay guy being effeminate. But trans women existing in their general vicinity is often taken as a direct attack by men on their straightness and masculinity, especially when they are together with other guys and might´ve discussed how hot or whatever a trans woman looked like from distance until they clock her and they´ll think they will never live off the shame, so they feel like they have to resort to at least verbally assaulting the trans woman to defend their pride.

    It is important to deconstruct internalized transphobia.

    Normally, passing consistently would not be that important to me, so long as I´m accepted by friends and at my workplace - but it has to be, due to physical safety being of course extremely important.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 5:46 AM
  14. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    First off I am not remotely ambivalent to trans issues. But thanks for telling me what I am dice.



    There will never be a day that people are obligated to be attracted to things (as dice put it bodies, but it's more than just bodies) they are not attracted to. Trying to demand equality in that respect is a battle that makes you appear unreasonable to literally everyone else.

    I'm not saying this is a good thing... sexual racism, weight, cis/trans, etc. these are all under the same umbrella when it comes to dating preferences of "things that shouldn't matter ideally but they do, and you're not going to change people's minds." It does you literally no good to berate these people to their faces. When you do, you make them think you hate them. After all, you're calling them scary words like settler colonials or whatever school of social construct theory is en vogue right now.

    Accept their allyship where you can. You think you should be able to ride public transport without being harassed? Cool, they do too.

    Sexual orientation minorities learned long ago that we could win with people who didn't care for us by advocating the premise that we deserved to be normal people with equal rights to anyone else. We did that by never demanding any right that could be construed as extra, just equal (though we still get accused of it all the time). We deserved access to marriage but only from people who wanted to marry us back. There's nothing extra there. We deserved to not be fired from our jobs (still fighting this one...) for something immutable, similar to race or religion. Every right we have fought for has been couched in the historical battles for equality for other groups.

    Trans advocates don't seem to get this point. When you demand that straight men/women date you as women/men, you are demanding something special. Of course, you are in fact whatever gender you identify as, and to you it doesn't feel like a special right - just equal access to dating. But no person has or ever will be compelled to date anyone they don't find attractive. You're demanding access to a relationship with people who don't find trans people attractive by saying "you must find me attractive." The people who already do (or who don't care) are not the problem right? The demand is only of those who don't find you attractive. And their reasons for not finding you attractive may suck, but they are their reasons. If they still see you as a man, they will not date you. If they see you as a "fake" woman, they will not date you. Even many who accept you as full women will not date you because of some other insecurity or just because of a lack of physical attraction (passing is HARD, unfortunately, even after years of transitioning).

    But these men who won't date trans women can be your allies in so many other ways if you would stop fighting unwinnable battles that turn them off. You win allies by being like them and gaining empathy. Trans advocates don't realize it, but when they demand people perceive them certain ways, they're crossing that line of equal/special treatment in cis people's eyes.

    It's at least somewhat accepted that society can make norms for behavior (i.e. Restaurant has to serve anyone who comes in), but trying to change perceptions top-down is incredibly difficult. 50 years after Loving v Virginia winning the right to interracial marriage, interracial marriage rates are still low and that's because sexual racism did not go away in the past 50 years. Cissexism in dating won't go away either.

    People believe they have a right to be attracted to what they're attracted to (in all respects) and being told they don't, or that they are bad people for it, does no one any good.
    Ununhexium, Kefky and thesecondbest like this.
  15. TheValkyries

    TheValkyries proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE

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    Holy shit bro we're talking about the fact that people already ARE attracted to trans women but go to great lengths to deny it with bullshit excuses that don't actually amount to any meaningful distinction. No one is demanding that you must be attracted to them. That was clarified in like my first response to the original conversation starter.
    Mymble, Mowtom, Demoness and 3 others like this.
  16. Eevee General

    Eevee General I used to be cool
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    Wait, why are we kicking the liberals out?
    thesecondbest, MaceMaster and Kris like this.
  17. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    ^because everybody already knows capitalists are stupid... no point insulting them so liberalism is the next best thing so obvv
  18. Mymble

    Mymble formerly Chenkovsky

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    In and of itself not being attracted to a trans person on a wholly physical level isn't transphobic. Trying to act like the assertion is "we have control over whom we're attracted to" is blatant misdirection. Nobody here is saying that. The point is that denying your own genuine attraction to a trans person based on internalised transphobia and ideas of gender roles is transphobic (and transmisogynistic in this case). Equating womanhood to motherhood denies the womanhood of both sterile cis women and cis women who don't want children, beyond just trans women. Claiming women with penises aren't women denies the womanhood of intersex women, and trans women (so long as you're willing to accept that they're women). Saying that you aren't transphobic and then both equating motherhood to womanhood and denying the womanhood of women with penises really proves the opposite. There is very little easily available information on what hetero sex with a trans women is, and that creates a false equivalence to gay sex. It also generally ignores the discomfort of the trans person with their own genitals. The reality is you have no idea what is expected of you and are working with false assumptions.

    The problem most commonly brought up surrounding "allies" is that they are not as comfortable with trans people as they make themselves out to be, and then use the fact they consider themselves to be allies to deny their transphobic actions. This shouldn't be enough, but trans people regularly have to accept it over nothing at all. Better than nothing should never be good enough. The fact that a trans person is still friends with you even after you've been transphobic, doesn't mean you weren't or they were okay with what happened. If a trans person had to end every friendship with anyone who had done something transphobic in the time that they had known them, trans people would have even fewer cis friends.

    Requesting people be debating in a respectful and calm manner would be reasonable if it weren't for two things. One. The conversation didn't start from a respectful place, it began with transphobic and misogynistic ideas being presented as if they weren't, and then these ideas were defended with further transphobia and misogyny. Saying disrespect has to be met with tranquillity is ridiculous. Anger doesn't prevent a clear and correct point from being made. Two. Not everything is a debate, sometimes you are wrong. A trans person can be wrong even on trans issues, but generally they are going to be better informed and have a wider set of first and second hand experiences to draw from.

    Acting like trans people aren't aware of broader issues and are being petty for focusing on seemingly small issues denies any meaningful discourse as it draws focus from specifics onto vaguer generalities. Downplaying the importance of an issue like trans dating to instead focus on issues that don't force you to examine your own prejudices in no way helps the trans community. Just because you see the issues you've brought up as more important doesn't invalidate the "lesser" issue.
  19. Posho

    Posho
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    I know some people never expected any of this(or maybe they already suspected it lol), but here I go, this might be one of the first serious posts I ever decide to make, I'm usually just here to play competitive mons, have fun winning tournaments, chatting and meeting lots of wonderful people, so you may not expect this kind of post from someone like me.

    Well, despite all the "im gay, i like men"-like memes you guys are used to see me say on the Smogon Discord, I'd like to finally reveal myself, and as a matter of fact, yes, I consider myself gay. The fact that I've been using these kind of jokes quite oftenly is simply because it was my only way to "scream" what I really feel like I am even if it was taken as a joke and noone would believe that, it somehow felt nice, but hiding this is not something I really feel comfortable with, in fact, I feel I need people to know about this side of me. I'm a bit shy so this doesn't come off as easy as you may think, many of you have known me for some years now, and I really can't tell how you're gonna react to all of this. I can say that I'm quite scared as I'm typing this and the closer I get to finish writting the faster goes my heart, but there's something that life's taught me and you have to love yourself as you are, and never deny any of your feelings, even if it is too hard, that's the only way you'll find what makes you happy the most.

    This is a bit of a long story, but I'd be glad if you bother reading it: I've always been quite shy at first when I meet people, mostly beacuse I expect them to have a good impression about me, so I use to be quite silent and quiet, but once you get to know me and I've deposited enough trust on you then that's when my true self usually blooms out and people may say that I've changed a lot but that's how I really am, you really can't help it, can you? At first I never had it clear about my sexual preferences, I used to have a girlfriend, who I recently broke up with as I wasn't feeling quite comfortable towards our relationship and I was quite unhesitant to tell her, but finally and for my own sake I did. Point is though, that I've always treated both male and female people the same way. Though, I've never felt anything for any women, like at all, even if I had a girlfriend it was not really that special and as I previously mentioned it wasn't going too well, now, you could say that I'm basing my opinion on just some particular case, but the thing is, that I actually find it more pleasing to spend time with people of my same sex rather than the opposing one, not saying that I hate women or anything, I actually have women friends who are just wonderful as people, and mainly, my own mother, someone who I look up to as a person and the person who supports me the most, so yeah.

    I had quite a rough life when I was living in Latinamerica, I moved to Uruguay when I was 10 years old, I had just to farewell my best friends, and could never comunicate with them anymore, which was quite sad for me; but that doesnt compare to what comes next. I met some kids around my neighbourhood, all good, they were welcoming and all that good stuff, but it was just a matter of months when people decided they wanted to be complete assholes with me, never had I been this discriminated and bullied in my life, I'm not the kind of guy that likes picking up fights, I try to be as far away as possible from any violent event, but there were some times where there wasn't any other way out, and man, I really fucking regret all of that. Those events made me want to be isolated in my room, having fun with solely myself and noone else as I didn't feel anyone was good enough to be my friend, and thus I spent many years inside home, with some bare interactions with some of my few friends. All of this made me not develop any feeling towards anyone in particular, I was selfish, only caring about myself as I felt I was one of the few good things that I had left, along with my family sure, but sadly they're not the ones who I specially feel comfortable with talking about this stuff.

    After some years of going through some true shit, my parents decided it was time to move back to Spain, I initially tried to prevent them from doing so, I wasn't aware of the shitty lifestyle I was having and I was scared I'd have through the same suffering once again, but nothing I could do and so we came back to our beloved country to restart another life, which I hoped could go my way this time.

    We arrived around 1 year ago, on this month actually, I was still going through the same lifestyle I had back in Uruguay, but it was fine since I didn't know anyone in the city so I didn't have any friends whatsoever. Later on, highschool started and boy, this is when things were gonna finally shift. Given my previous behaviours, it resulted a bit difficult at first to try and make friends, hang out with them and all that amusing stuff but I had been encouraged and finally could open myself up a bit to other people. One day we had a school trip to some swamp, I was talking with a classmate along the way, we had spoken quite little but it looked like I already gained his trust, so I was invited to go to the cinema(you cannot imagine how happy I felt at that moment), I felt a bit weird because I wasn't that used to hang out with other people, it doesn't mean I had not, In fact I had but in rarely ocassions and it almost resulted in me wanting to be back home because I wasn't comfortable. So we went to the cinema, saw the film, was good, etc etc. So I left him at home, it felt good honestly, finally having a friend who I can hang out with, for the first time in ages I was feeling like all of that lasted a little bit longer, I didn't want to end my fun right there, but I better did or my parents were gonna kill me! As soon as I arrived home I texted him through Whatsapp, and we had some conversation about the classroom, the movie, some other irrelevant stuff, common things about an average teenagers conversation. Out of the blue, I decided I wanted to tell him what I went through Uruguay, and how I was currently feeling towards myself and the way I was carrying my life, I knew I wasn't fine and there was still a chance for me to change. Right after our convo, he gave me plenty of advice and tried to motivate me, that really made me quite happy because noone ever had treated me like that, besides my parents, who are my primary supporters. We started hanging out more frequently, I was personally enjoying the time I spent with him a lot, until I questioned myself if I was in love with that guy, I had my doubts, I hadn't been in love with someone in a long ass time, so this sensation came off as weird to me, but as the time passed I was more sure of myself, and decided to accept it, I had fallen in love with him and there was no denial. Sadly for me though, he was straight so I wasn't gonna jump in and say that I liked him, even though I wished so, I knew it wasn't the time so I decided to see if I could get lucky enough, just like in Pokémon! and let our relationship develop to the point where I could finally reveal him my true feelings, but that time never came, and I will never know what would have happened if I didn't fuck up anything.

    Now, you may be wondering, how'd I fuck it up? Well, let me explain. I wasn't only friends with him, I made some other friends along the way and thus we had some kind of circle. I was a bit tired of containing all of my feelings within me without letting at least anyone know, you could say it'd have been easier if I kept it as a secret, but I didn't feel I was gonna achieve my aim if I at least didn't have some support. So, I told this friend of mine that I liked the guy, though it was a bit difficult to reveal that at first, I was trembling, but I felt it was the best I could do and man, I really do regret having done that, it was such a reckless act. After a month or so, she decided it'd be better if she told him the truth about me, as she felt I was getting too obsessed with him (lol) which wasn't quite true, I only enjoyed spending time with him a lot, I don't feel it's a crime to share your activities with the people you like, but whatever, people like overexagerating things and this little mistake really gave me quite the backfire. I didn't learn he knew I was in love with him until a month later, after I was tired of him being rude out of the sudden and went through some stupid arguements, I didn't know what caused him to become like that(subconciously I did, but I just tried not to believe it) and I suffered a lot from it. I met up with one of my friends and current supporters, and she told me all about this since she knew and recognised I wasn't passing a nice time with all of this unnecessary drama, at that moment I felt so sad, angry, confused, whatever you could imagine, I felt the world fell upon me for a second, everything regarding my relationship with that guy had been just torn apart, and I did nothing but to get mad at that b**ch for what he did, I consider myself easily quite a trust-worthy person, and I always try to help other people as much as possible with their personal problems if they approach me. I felt betrayed, by someone whom I had considered a good friend of mine, I felt I was given some little kicks until they started hurting. I decided to call the guy and try and solve all this mess-up, which I did but it left me with some painful scars that I might last recovering from. After that I never said a word to that girl again, I still had a crush on the guy, but it didn't feel the same anymore, it was weird in fact, but nothing I could do to come back and try to fix everything so I just moved on. Everything was kept cool, or that's what I felt for a month or so when he started being an asshole again for no reason every time I approached him, so I decided to kind of cut out my interactions with him and decided that if he wanted to talk with me, then he should do so. We still talk and stuff sometimes, we're only friends I guess.

    After all those events, I confirmed myself what are my sexual preferences, even if I had to go through some stupid and not needed drama, I've been able to open myself up and little by little been losing my shyness towards this. I mean, it's not that easy to make such reveal, but at last you learn that people actually accept you as you are, furthermore, they support you and encourage you to move on and live the life you want, as long as you're able to find happiness, what's the problem? I have a few friends irl whom I've told all about this, even my own mother, and all of them have been supportive, which at first I took as a surprise, as I thought they were gonna react shocked but turns out they did not and, hell, you don't know how relieved and happy I felt about it.

    Bad thing though, is that I'm aware some people are quite against homosexuality, and even though I know I should not care about anyone's opinion, one of them includes my father: quite the homophobic, he really doesn't know any of this but the way he reacts and talks towards homosexuality is quite repulsive and I really don't know how's he gonna react, and I don't want to know either. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to move on even if it ends up he's against it, but I don't want to end in any family drama of some sort, so my biggest hope is that when I have to tell him, he accepts it.

    Now currently I'm having a good life, I have really good friends both here and in real life, and I couldn't be happier about having met all of you guys, you're people who I will always carry within for the rest of my life.

    Thanks dice for all of our nice conversations, they really encouraged me, I was probably a bit embarassed about posting this but I must not be, this is probably gonna be my best decision.

    That's Posho for you.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017 at 10:35 AM
    Oibaf cune, phil, Lednah and 98 others like this.

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