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Liepard (Taken Over) [QC: 3/3] (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Punchshroom, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Another update sorry :p

    So I took a good long look at the Pivot Liepard and assessed that it is basically a mesh between Sneasel, Skuntank and Volbeat, with some of the attributes they have.

    Sneasel:
    What it shares - Fast Pursuit and revenge killing ability
    What it lacks - Ice STAB, Fighting moves and better speed. Sneasel can revenge kill a good deal more threats than Liepard can with Ice moves, most notably having Ice Shard as priority that does not fail against faster priority like Swellow's Quick Attack, and Sneasel's better speed, coverage and to an extent, power, can revenge kill the likes of Serperior, Swellow, weakened/+2 Scolipede (with Foul Play which it has room for), and Tauros (Fighting move or Foul Play). While access to Fighting moves don't make Sneasel's matchup against Rocks and Steels much better, at least it can strike back when it needs to; Liepard isn't beating any of them one on one.

    Skuntank:
    What it shares - Sucker Punch and Pursuit
    What it lacks - Better bulk and Poison typing. Skunk matches up well against bulky teams while still potentially troubling offense; this Liepard does jack all against almost anything remotely defensive (well, neither of the suggested sets do, except Toxic Utility Cat or NP Cat). Skunk has STAB Poison Jab which can harass defensive pokemon while boasting Toxic immunity and Taunt prevents recovery and the like; Liepard's Encore can't actually stop the move from happening.

    Volbeat:
    What it shares - Prankster Encore and U-turn
    What it lacks - Actual supporting options. Liepard's best attempt to support its teammates is with a well-timed Encore and then U-turn to gain the advantage. Volbeat can do that and more, usually not even needing U-turn. Volbeat can Glow/SubPass and has room for Thunder Wave, which can be just as devastating to sweepers if not more so than Liepard's Sucker Punch. I know it doesn't KO them, but they are neutered, allowing your teammates to setup (which is its job).

    So are Pivot Liepard's advantages enough to outweigh what it doesn't have and justify its use over these other pokemon? Will this hurt its viability? Of course I do note that Liepard has the other attacks that each of its competitors does not share with it, especially Sucker Punch + Encore which is nifty, but still something to think about.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  2. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Encore always has that risk, doesn't it? Find chance to Encore first, look to setup later like regular Liepard. Actually, Nasty Plot Liepard can turn the tables on Mandibuzz and T-Wave Mushy (that has not attacked) with Taunt, which is why I have it slashed in there. But I'll just have to face the music and accept this 1st QC reject.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  3. ebeast

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    QC Reject 2/3

    I agree with everything tennisace said, I just don't see a reason for this to go on site. It's not that bad, but it's not good by any means I'd rather it get a mention in OO than anything.

    Also you need to trim down this analysis, it is way to large and full of many irrelevant points. (I think I saw Yawn in AC...)
    DTC and TROP like this.
  4. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Something about this sentence right here has alerted me to something: isn't this how you usually play an Encore Liepard (also applying to regular one)? Because this is what I do all the time (living on the edge), and it pays off in spades the majority of the time due to good timing. I think I finally understand why you guys like Pivot Liepard so much: its Encores are safer, thanks to the threat of Sucker Punch. I think I've achieved a feeling equivalent to enlightenment having figured this out, Jesus Christ.

    Edit: Whoops, Yawn is still there. Removed. :P
  5. FLCL

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    as annoying as it is, thunder wave should probably be slashed before encore on the first set since it's much easier to use for most players and is in my opinion what makes liepard so annoying to deal with since you have to bypass two forms of disruption before you even get to hit it.
  6. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Yet another controversial choice, Encore and Thunder Wave both aim to do the same thing: buy free turns. Encore works much better with defensive teams who have multiple setup fodder, whilst Prankster Thunder Wave can halt rampaging threats for teammates to revenge kill. I gave the edge to Encore because it rewards better play by guaranteeing the free turn with timely switches and it has a very useful secondary purpose which is to disrupt bulky pokemon that heal to impede Liepard's advances and increase their chances to break through; Thunder Wave's secondary purpose in halting sweepers has a high chance to only be used once before Liepard dies, and also makes it a terrible paralysis spreader when compared to, say, Scrappy Miltank, unless you manage to survive the gauntlet of odds against you with Swagger and whatnot. Thunder Wave is easier to use but is less rewarding, and suits offense better; Encore is trickier to use but is more rewarding, and suits defense better (but is still effective against offense both against and with setup sweepers). It really depends on the user's choice, so you can see how hard it is for me to make the slash.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  7. Raseri

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    rejecting NP as well. It just doesn't work well right now. Maybe in the future it will be OK, and it can be revisited then.

    I do believe Encore > Thunder Wave for SubSwag set. Also the order of the moves should probably be different. Substitute / Swagger / (Encore/Twave) / Foul Play imo

    Also im just going to say the pivot set owns so much and everyone should use it :)
  8. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Alas dear Nasty Plot, you held on as long as you could, but you will be remembered as the most viable choice in OO~ :(

    Okay so I want Encore/T-Wave first, tennis wants that last, and now Raseri wants it above Foul Play (I agree) but below Swagger. What do you people want from me???
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  9. tennisace

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    Sub
    Swagger
    Encore / Twave
    Foul Play

    roll with it
  10. Punchshroom

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    Made the change, but since Sub is now the primary move, I went ahead and put Torment in the AC (it really doesn't fit anywhere else) due to its potential against mono-attacking mons like Miltank and Alomo. Is that fine with you?
  11. Hollywood

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    Maybe it's just me because I've been playing with it a lot lately, but I am strongly advocating for the Pivot set to be first on the analysis. It has been far more consistent for me than what the Utility set ever has when I've played with it. While it might not have the capability of taking out nearly an entire team with the right coin flips, the combination of consistency and ACTUAL utility (because let's face it, the only utility that the "Utility" set has is Encore or Thunder Wave which means it provides the same exact amount that the pivot set does) are enough to make it first in my honest opinion.

    On a similar note, "Utility" should probably be named "Swagger" or "Sub Swagger" because it doesn't actually provide any utility outside of that one moveslot.

    I'd also like to see Pursuit slashed first. Against more defensive teams, it makes it a bit less reliable, but filling the role of beating Jynx (reliably, no less) and other frailer Pokemon weak to it (Haunter, Gardevoir I suppose) is such a great thing, especially considering that 99% of the time, if you're using a Pursuit trapper, it's probably going to be Skuntank. Liepard gives another option for a Pursuit trapper while also providing utility with Encore and playing the role of an awesome pivot for both balanced and offensive teams. Night Slash is still good though and should stay on the set.
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  12. Punchshroom

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    I do see the potential in the Pivot set, but not so much that it deserves the first spot. The pivot set may be able to pull off more reliable Encores but can't actually make good use of that free turn for itself other than trying to KO the target, rather it needs to U-turn out to a teammate for that to be done. The first set may require timing with its Encore, but once you do get it Liepard is usually pretty set and really gets going. Between Encore, Toxic, Substitute (which guards against status to Encore against) and Foul Play, Liepard screws up so many pokemon by itself I swear it's more torture than the parafuse Liepard, because you can at least have a shot at breaking through the latter with hax; my Toxic Liepard (I think I saw one other Toxic Liepard in my entire NU career) can cripple your defensive pokemon and there is little you can do about it without giving it more free turns which you do not want, while offensive pokemon do not like Foul Play one bit.

    While both Liepards can use the same utility moves, Sub + Foul Play Liepard makes far better use of them itself than Pivot Liepard does. The latter does this mainly to support teammates, as it cannot actually do much to a pokemon locked into a harmless move that stays in; the former gets its way regardless of whether the opponent switches or not as it proceeds to walk all over them while not caring about defense boosts (as they usually boost the user's power as well). The thing is, the SubStatus Liepard can fit on both offense and stall, while Pivot only fits on offense and is pretty deadweight on stall. Imo, the Liepard that is more self sufficient and versatile should get the first slot (but whichever Liepard works best for you and me I suppose). That said, I probably should change the name, so I'll get to that. Or maybe not, since the Offensive Pivot Cat is, well, a pivot, not primarily a utility supporter, while the first Liepard is (maybe not so much with Swagger, more with Toxic as of my original analysis..what do I do???).

    Also derp, Pursuit should definitely be first. Changed.
  13. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Also in the first set (still having trouble naming it because of...->), I added that the AC moves should be used over Swagger first, as I find Swagger doesn't really contribute to Liepard's overall playstyle, whereas the AC moves can actually play a role in a match, as opposed to Swagger's hit-or-miss style.
  14. Hollywood

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    The thing about the pivot set is that I would RATHER make use of Encore by U-turning out and disrupting the opposing team's offensive momentum while giving yourself the upper hand. On top of that, Pivot Liepard is honestly a great revenge killer. Sucker Punch hits a lot harder than you would think between it's ok Attack stat and Dread Plate. I'll wait for other QC members to comment on this (because I know I'm a bit biased based on my experiences with the Pivot set, but then again, I'm only biased because I've used both and know that the Pivot set works really well), but I'm still unconvinced that Pivot should be second.
  15. Punchshroom

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    Like I said, to each his own with every Liepard set (I'd rather have Toxic in the main set, but nooo~). I won't deny Liepard is a great revenge killer, its slew of moves makes it very tricky to play against (like all Liepards really) compared to other revenge killers, but I think Utility gets the nod from me (still debatable!) as it can fit on a greater variety of teams as both offense and defense like what it offers: the ability to cripple both defensive and offensive mons alike (with good play); Pivot only really works on offense who can capitalize on the free turns Pivot Liepard gives with much greater efficiency than a stall team does, though that makes it pretty good in its own right. While Pivot Liepard is effective, Liepard's problem has always been bulky pokemon, and since Utility Liepard can still take them on while Pivot Liepard has like no chance one-on-one, I believe Pivot is 2nd best (yes I admit this is much better than Nasty Plot, okay?).
  16. tennisace

    tennisace
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    I discussed this briefly on irc with Raseri, but he mentioned that Pivot should probably be listed first and I agree with him. You keep hyping up Prankster Encore (which Pivot has) and devaluing Prankster T-Wave and Swagger (which Pivot doesn't have). Liepard doesn't have much bulk to speak of anyway, and the extra attacking power is quite nice for picking off say, weakened sweepers or trapping something like Haunter.
  17. Punchshroom

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    I'm "hyping up" Prankster Encore on the utility set as opposed to the Pivot set for different reasons: the Pivot set itself can't make full use of Encore as well as it could (but is still good) compared to the Utility set. The Pivot set KOes the setup fodder immediately with Pursuit or U-turns to gain the switch advantage/set-up opportunity; the utility set can also KO the setup fodder and allow the teammate to setup, but the key difference is that Liepard can also setup for itself. Granted, there's no switch advantage for your setup sweeper unless you predict well, but with Liepard itself gearing up and ready to go that usually isn't a hard loss, since you have 2 setup threats to worry about instead of one.

    Extra attacking power? Pivot Liepard isn't used for its power, it's for its disruption tactics in priority Sucker Punch and trapping Pursuit that can be easily capitalized with Prankster Encore that it is used over other revenge killers or even other Liepards, who can dent most of Pivot Liepard's targets harder with Foul Play and disrupt pokemon bulky enough to take it. I've tested both sets, and can easily say that Pivot Liepard is weaker offensively as it can fail to KO neutral targets like Zangoose, but otherwise does its job well enough.

    Once again, I agree Pivot works nicely, but still feel that it shouldn't be the first set as it does not have the defining team-dismantling power that utility Liepard has (keep in mind this is without Swagger, I feel the utility set is going pretty wayside actually :( ). Both sets are so good at what they do I honestly think it comes down to personal preference. Tree said there would be further discussion on this, so I'll wait :[

    Edit: So Pivot Liepard is more user-friendly, and can take out a couple of pokes and provides good team support; the utility set is trickier to use, but can dismantle entire teams with the right moveset singlehandedly (ironically, noobs use this). In my opinion, I do find Pivot Liepard to have limited use on stall, while Utility Liepard can find its place on more teams. I think this Liepard analysis has become a bit more than I can chew, but since I like this cat and took it upon myself I will see this through, though I need help. :(
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  18. Punchshroom

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    I think we can all agree that Liepard is pretty damn customisable, and since Pivot Liepard is all set I'll put it in first until I can decide what to do with the Utility set (starting with the name, Swagger isn't really what gives it its niche imo, its huge slew of Prankster disruptive options is).

    Edit: The problem is that C&C is placing greater emphasis on the Utility set as it is harder to outright counter, so I may undo this decision or rewrite the whole of C&C (but it is still a fact that Utility Liepard is harder to beat due to its unpredictability, while Pivot Liepard loses to almost everything Utility Liepard loses to and then some).
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  19. Punchshroom

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    So I gave Pivot Liepard a whirl, and the result....is below expectations. What am I supposed to do with this thing? Gain momentum? Well it seems to be the only thing it can do (albeit well) because it cannot KO healthy non-Ghost/Psychic types worth much a damn. Skunk at least has the bulk to do a double whammy with Crunch/Poison Jab + Sucker Punch; Sneasel has Ice STAB and Fighting attacks that give it a bit more versatality in checking threats; Liepard doesn't have either of that and even ironically suffers Sneasel sydrome: fast and frail, but not quite strong enough.

    Now Prankster Encore + U-turn is something in Liepard's favor, but even with failsafes for Sucker Punch and with Pursuit, Liepard still has to predict. You click Sucker Punch to kill a threat or Encore it if it fails? Whoops, the opponent is already readying a switch into a wall to tank what they would assume to be your bog-standard Liepard, so maybe you'd think twice about U-turn or Pursuit. This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Liepard is frail as shit. Even though a mispredict is pretty unlikely, it will cost Liepard unless you get lucky against a recovery move or something. Sub Liepard can at also guard against status from Misdreavus or Musharna, while Pivot Cat flees from both.

    So what? Pivot Liepard still works well! Yes I agree, but I still think it shouldn't be the first set. Why? Because almost everything that beats regular Liepard beats this set too. Christ, Pivot Liepard without Night Slash can't even scratch Quick Attack Swellow. Let me repeat that: CAN'T. SCRATCH. SWELLOW. Whose frailty is as notorious as Liepard's itself. Just because Pivot Cat works for you guys, doesn't mean it should be Top Cat. SubSwag Liepard is still the one to look out for, as it can trouble everything with a bit of luck, or in my case, a tweak in moveset.

    Also, I've finally settled for a name for my Toxic Liepard: "StallBreaker", because it does it impeccably. So yeah, "SubSwagger" is fine for the main set.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  20. Punchshroom

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  21. Punchshroom

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    Bumped this by adding Assist + Whirlwind in OO.
  22. tennisace

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    You still haven't fixed everything that we asked.

    Leave Pivot Liepard alone, the set is fine, your comments are fine, it's what QC wants as the first set
    Change Utility -> SubSwagger
    Move Toxic to OO but mention that other bulkier Pokemon use it better since they can take a couple hits to rack up Poison damage.
    Move Knock Off to OO but mention that Liepard has better things to be doing.
    Move Torment to OO, Encore is better.
    Rewrite Checks/Counters so that Pivot and its Checks/Counters are emphasized over SubSwagger.

    Fix all of this stuff, then look through this thread after the first stamp to see if there's anything else that you missed.
  23. Punchshroom

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  24. Punchshroom

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  25. Magcargo

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    You should probably mention it in OO; something along the lines of "Liepard can use assist alongside 5 teammates with either Roar or Whirlwind and a select group of support moves to continuously phaze the foe's Pokemon, but this strategy requires a great amount of support in order to work".

    Will add more useful content later.

    EDIT: I need to learn how to read.

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