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Lilligant (BW2 Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by citro, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. citro

    citro

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    [​IMG]
    darling buds of may
    old skeleton, for reference

    so this is my first analysis don't be too harsh please! :)
    i'm a little shaky on the bulky set so i would like qc input on that.

    [Overview]

    <p>From the dawn of RU to the present day, Lilligant has been a top-tier threat. Excellent Special Attack and decent Speed combined with Quiver Dance make her a formidable sweeper after just a turn of boosting. Furthermore, she has access to the deadly Sleep Powder, allowing her to disable a surefire counter or provide extra setup opportunities. Unfortunately, it's not all a walk in the park for our flowery queen. Lilligant's mono-Grass typing leaves her with bad STAB coverage and weaknesses to common attacking types. Furthermore, her lack of secondary attacking options means she must rely on Hidden Power, which limits her ability to sweep. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is very dangerous once her checks and counters are removed and should always be played around carefully.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Quiver Dance
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Sleep Powder
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Lilligant's stats make her a perfect user of Quiver Dance, being tailor-made for a move that raises her Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed one stage. As an added bonus, Lilligant also has access to Sleep Powder, enabling her to remove a troublesome check or counter as it switches in. These turns of sleep also create free opportunities to set up more. Giga Drain is Lilligant's most reliable STAB move and heals her in the process. Hidden Power Rock nets pretty good coverage alongside Giga Drain, hitting Fire-, Flying-, and Bug-types super effectively&mdash;such as Moltres and Entei&mdash;but misses out on Grass- and Steel-types. Alternatively, Hidden Power Fire hits Pokemon of these types, including Rotom-C and Escavalier, while also nailing Bug-types. It is especially useful early-game, when it can be used to lure out these Pokemon and remove them. Unfortunately, using it leaves Lilligant vulnerable to opposing Fire-types.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs on this set are rather straightforward: Special Attack and Speed are maximized to capitalize on Quiver Dance's boosts. A Timid nature is necessary to outpace various Pokemon just below Lilligant's Speed tier, including Choice Scarf Pinsir and Rotom-F at +1. Life Orb is naturally the item of choice, as the KOs it ensures are important considering Lilligant struggles to take a hit. That said, Lum Berry is an interesting alternative, offering a nice one-time save from otherwise crippling status such as Uxie's Thunder Wave or Slowking's Toxic. Chlorophyll is the most useful ability, enabling Lilligant to revenge kill Sunny Day sweepers like Victreebel. Substitute over Sleep Powder turns Pokemon like Slowking into setup fodder, allowing Lilligant to dodge status and obtain multiple boosts. However, she loses the ability to put an enemy to sleep, meaning this set plays very differently from the standard Quiver Dance set. Petal Dance is worth a mention along with her Own Tempo ability, but Grass is a bad type to be locked into and makes her even easier to revenge kill. That being said, the power boost is fantastic&mdash;Petal Dance can even 2HKO Pokemon that resist it like Entei at +1.</p>

    <p>Generally, Lilligant fits well in Fire / Water / Grass cores as these give her teammates that can take on Pokemon that trouble her. With Hidden Power Fire, Fire-types like Moltres and Entei wall Lilligant; therefore, a strong Water-type, such as Kabutops, that can remove these foes is very useful. When running Hidden Power Rock, Grass- and Steel-types come in easily, so the Fire-types mentioned earlier pair well with Lilligant. A lack of a Fire-type move also makes Lilligant Escavalier bait, so a Pokemon like Qwilfish is a good teammate to tank its hits. Hidden Power Rock is better when using Lilligant late-game to hit the more common Fire- and Flying-types, as Lilligant can often beat Grass-types one-on-one regardless.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon-types like Druddigon, but otherwise offers poor coverage as it leaves Lilligant helpless against both Fire- and Steel-types. Leftovers is another interesting option, trading an immediate power boost for passive healing, which lets Lilligant set up more consistently. One can opt for a bulky spread of 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 Spe with a Timid nature to set up more easily, but it is usually not worth the loss in power. Lilligant can make good use of Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, utilizing moves such as Leaf Storm and Healing Wish. A Sunny Day set taking advantage of Chlorophyll could work, but without dedicated sun, Quiver Dance is more effective, and in sun, a more powerful sweeper like Sawsbuck or Victreebel is a better choice in her stead. Lilligant has various support options, including Aromatherapy, Healing Wish, Leech Seed, and Synthesis as well as the less conventional Light Screen and Stun Spore. Sadly, her bulk is rather subpar for a purely defensive set, and she is prone to being outclassed by fellow Grass-types like Tangrowth and Ferroseed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Because of Lilligant's reliance on Hidden Power for coverage, many Pokemon wall her by virtue of their typing alone. Fire-types come in freely if Lilligant lacks a Rock-type move&mdash;notable examples are Magmortar, who is even immune to Sleep Powder with Vital Spirit, and Emboar, who can tank any hit and OHKO with Flare Blitz. Likewise, if Lilligant is using Hidden Power Rock, Steel- and Grass-types switch in with little worry. Roselia and Amoonguss are bulky enough to take even Hidden Power Fire and can hit Lilligant with Sludge Bomb. Escavalier can use Sleep Talk to OHKO Lilligant and walls her if she lacks Hidden Power Fire; other Steel-types like Klinklang also accomplish the same thing. As Lilligant rarely carries Hidden Power Ice, Druddigon can almost always phaze her out or outright KO her. Sap Sippers such as Bouffalant, Miltank, and Sawsbuck gain an Attack boost from Giga Drain and Sleep Powder and care little about Lilligant's common coverage moves with the exception of Hidden Power Fire in Sawsbuck's case, while Drapion has the bulk to survive most hits and deals heavy damage back. Gallade takes even a +1 Giga Drain and can avoid sleep with a Lum Berry, while Choice Scarf Primeape bypasses sleep altogether with Vital Spirit.</p>

    <p>Lilligant also has a fair share of defensive checks. Clefable is not 2HKOed by +1 Giga Drain and can stop her with status moves. Mandibuzz will take heavy damage from a possible Hidden Power Rock, but can use Whirlwind to reset Lilligant's boosts. Any bulky wall with Thunder Wave that can survive a hit can cripple Lilligant because she relies on Speed to sweep; paralysis is a dead stop. Cryogonal makes another excellent counter, taking hits with ease thanks to its phenomenal special bulk, as well as having access to Haze and Ice Beam.</p>
  2. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    We talked (are talking?) on this on irc right now so im going to list the changes that Silentverse and i suggested on irc here =).


    1) Life Orb>leftovers on the offensive Quiver Dance set imo, while leftovers does give you some great recovery, i think that Life Orb is the best option for the extra power it provides, especially due to Giga Drain's relatively low BP, another cool part of Life Orb is that the recoil doesnt matter as much because your main STAB heals you, i know windsong wanted Leftovers>Life orb on Lilligant so if he hasnt changed his mind hes free to post his opinion.

    2) Move petal dance from OO to the AC of the offensive Quiver Dance set, while locking yourself into a grass STAB is really annoying, it provides lilligant with a ton of raw power, allowing it to 2hko resists such as Entei at +1, and Own Tempo prevents Lilligant from becoming confused at the end of her rampage, i think thats more than enough to justify an AC slot if not a slash imo.

    3) Im also a bit shaky on the bulky Quiver Dance set, i honestly see no reason to use it when offensive quiver dance is just sooooo good. Plus, Lilligant is actually pretty frail, 70/75/75 is nothing to write home about, and i dont see the merit of investing in its bulk when you could simply be using the other set. Any thoughts on this?
  3. Honko

    Honko
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    I've never seen or heard of bulky QD actually being worth using over the standard set on a successful team. It should go to OO imo. The only secondary set worth talking about is SubQD, but even that is probably AC or OO material. I wanna hear the thoughts of master windsong on this though.
  4. citro

    citro

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    yeah, I've used bulky QD a little bit and while it has its benefits it's probably not worth a full set in itself - I put it in because it was on the last skeleton, and some people on IRC seemed to like it. Substitute is in AC at the moment; if anyone thinks it merits a full set, please let me know =)
  5. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    http://pastebin.com/FcsLx1cE

    logs of a convo i had with oglemi about Lilligant, i think we're all on the same page here atm, remove the bulky Quiver Dance set, and put subsitute in the AC of the offensive quiver dance set until its been sufficiently playtested, if its worth a set we'll write it up safely and make the appropriate changes through the scms.


    Ill QC approve this once those changes are implemented btw
  6. citro

    citro

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    cool I've done that, curious as to whether bulky QD should be OOd or just removed altogether?

    other than that this should be ready for QC checks :)
  7. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    I'd say OO at this point, if anyone else disagrees feel free to post a response

    and as promised

    QC approved 1/2
  8. Honko

    Honko
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    Highlight Magmortar as a counter if you use HP Fire thanks to Vital Spirit.

    [qc]2/2[/qc]
  9. citro

    citro

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    thanks Honko I'll get this done soon!
  10. citro

    citro

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    this is written, will dance for QCs
  11. DittoCrow

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    • You should elaborate on the choice of Hidden Power. If Lilligant is being used early-game, it should most often use Hidden Power Fire to lure out and KO Steel-types, Escavalier especially. Hidden Power Rock is much more useful late-game, which is when Lilligant will most likely be used, as Fire-types are more common than Steel-types and it gets better coverage. Lilligant will beat most opposing Grass-types after a Quiver Dance anyways, so Hidden Power Fire is only better for hitting Escavalier and friends.
    • Mention Substitute in AC. It can be used instead of Sleep Powder if you either don't like the low accuracy or have another sleep user on the team. This allows Lilligant to set up on Pokemon with Thunder Wave, such as Uxie, and can use Leftovers as an item for more longevity.
    • Mention a bulky Quiver Dance, Choice Scarf, and Choice Specs set in OO. Light Screen should also be noted.

    The Checks and Counters needs to be beefed up:
    • If Lilligant is using Hidden Power Fire, Entei (also mention that Entei can use Sleep Talk), Moltres, Typhlosion (Scarf can check any Lilligant as well), and Emboar can counter her. Emboar gets a special mention because it takes neutral damage from Hidden Power Rock.
    • Other Steel-types such as Klinklang and Ferroseed can beat Lilligant lacking Hidden Power Fire.
    • Sawsbuck is another example of a Sap Sipper check.
    • Druddigon is an excellent check because Lilligant rarely uses Hidden Power Ice.
    • Clefable is not 2HKOed by a +1 Giga Drain and can paralyze or Toxic Lilligant, or cure a teammate from sleep with Heal Bell.
    • Gallade has good enough Special Defense to take a hit at +1, and can avoid Sleep Powder with a Lum Berry.
    • Mandibuzz can check Hidden Power Fire Lilligant or just phaze out Hidden Power Rock Lilligant, though it will take significant damage in the process.
    • Primeape is immune to Sleep Powder and can deal a ton of damage with U-turn or KO a weakened Lilligant with Close Combat.
    • Thunder Wave severely cripples Lilligant. Lum Berry Uxie is effective at paralyzing Lilligant. Hypno cannot be put to sleep, and can also paralyze Lilligant or set up Light Screen.
    • Before this is GP'd, change the ’ curly apostrophe to a ' straight one. "Pokemon" should be capitalized as such. Also, types have a hyphen after them, such as "Fire-, Flying-, and Bug-types."

    [qc]3/3[/qc]
  12. citro

    citro

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    okay sorry for the longish wait but I think this is ready for GP :)
  13. melvni

    melvni
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    GP check. Good job on writing this. Just a couple minor things to keep in mind: Smogon uses the Oxford Comma and American spellings, Pokemon is always capitalized but status conditions like sleep aren't, x-type has a hyphen (though x typing doesn't), its XHKOed not XHKOd, and abuse means "use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse," so don't use it when you just mean use or take advantage of. Other than that great job!
    Additions in Blue
    Subtractions in Red
    Comments in Purple

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>From the dawn of RU to the present day, Lilligant has been a top-tier threat since the dawn of RU, and has continued to be to this day. Excellent Special Attack and decent Speed combined with Quiver Dance make her a formidable sweeper after just a turn of boosting. Furthermore, she has access to the deadly Sleep Powder, allowing Lilligant her to disable a surefire counter or provide extra setup opportunities. Unfortunately, it's not all a walk in the park for our flowery queen. Lilligant's mono-Grass typing leaves her with bad STAB coverage and weakness weaknesses to common attacking types. Furthermore, her lack of secondary attacking options means she must rely on Hidden Power, which limits her ability to sweep. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is very dangerous once her checks and counters are removed and should always be played around carefully.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Quiver Dance
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Sleep Powder
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Lilligant's stats make her a perfect user of Quiver Dance, raising being tailor-made for a move that raises her Special Attack, Special Defense (add comma) and Speed one stage. As an added bonus, Lilligant was also gifted with has access to Sleep Powder, enabling her to remove a troublesome check or counter as they switch it switches in. These turns of sleep also create free opportunities to set up more. Giga Drain is the Lilligant's most reliable STAB move and heals her in the process. Hidden Power Rock nets pretty good coverage alongside Giga Drain, hitting Fire-, Flying- (add comma) and Bug-types super effectively&mdash;such as Moltres and Entei&mdash;but misses out on Grass- and Steel-types. Alternatively, Hidden Power Fire hits these pokemon Pokemon of these types, including Rotom-C and Escavalier, while also nailing Bug-types; (change to period) It is especially useful early-game, when it can be used to lure out these Pokemon and remove them. (or a different phrasing if you think this is awkward; I'm moving this information here from additional comments because it seemed a little awkward there) unfortunately, this Unfortunately, using it leaves you Lilligant vulnerable to opposing Fire-types.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs on this set are rather straightforward; (change to colon) maximised maximized Special Attack and Speed to capitalize on Quiver Dance's boosts. A Timid nature is necessary to outpace various pokemon Pokemon just below her speed Lilligant's Speed tier, including Choice Scarf Pinsir and Rotom-F at +1. Life Orb is naturally the item of choice, as the KOs it obtains ensures are important considering Lilligant struggles to take a hit. That said, Lum Berry is an interesting alternative, offering a nice one-time save from otherwise crippling status such as Uxie's Thunder Wave or Slowking's Toxic. Chlorophyll is the most useful ability, enabling Lilligant to revenge kill Sunny Day sweepers like Victreebel. Substitute over Sleep Powder turns pokemon Pokemon like Slowking into setup fodder, allowing Lilligant to dodge status and obtain multiple boosts. However, you lose she loses the ability to put an enemy to sleep, meaning this set plays very differently from the standard Quiver Dance set. Petal Dance is worth a shot mention along with her Own Tempo ability, but Grass is a bad type to be locked into and makes you her even easier to revenge kill. That being said, the power boost is fantastic&mdash;Petal Dance can even 2HKO resists Pokemon that resist it like Entei at +1.</p>

    <p>Generally, Lilligant fits well in Fire / Water / Grass cores as these give her teammates that can take on pokemon Pokemon that trouble her. With Hidden Power Fire, Fire-types like Moltres and Entei wall you Lilligant; therefore, a strong Water-type such as Kabutops helps to that can remove these foes is very useful. This should be used early game, to lure out Pokemon like Escavalier and remove them. (moved to set comments) When running Hidden Power Rock, Grass- and Steel- types come in easily, so the aforementioned Fire-types mentioned earlier pair well with Lilligant. A lack of a Fire-type move also makes Lilligant Escavalier bait, so a pokemon Pokemon like Qwilfish is a good teammate to tank its hits like Qwilfish is a good teammate. Hidden Power Rock is better when using Lilligant late-game, (remove comma) to hit the more common Fire and Flying types Fire- and Flying-types **[or]** Fire / Flying types (use the first if you meant both Fire-types and Flying-types, use the second if you meant stuff like Moltres and Charizard), as Lilligant can often beat Grass types Grass-types regardless.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon types Dragon-types like Druddigon, but otherwise offers poor coverage as you are it leaves Lilligant helpless against both Fire- and Steel-types. Leftovers is another interesting option, trading an immediate power boost for passive healing (add comma) which lets Lilligant set up more consistently. One can opt for a bulky spread of 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 Spe and with a Timid nature to set up more easily, but it is usually not worth the loss in power. Lilligant can make good use of Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, utilising utilizing moves such as Leaf Storm and Healing Wish. A Sunny Day set abusing taking advantage of Chlorophyll could work, but without dedicated sun (add comma) Quiver Dance is more effective, and in sun (add comma) a more powerful sweeper like Sawsbuck or Victreebel is a better choice. Lilligant has various support options&mdash;these include (add comma) including Aromatherapy, Healing Wish, Leech Seed (add comma) and Synthesis, (remove comma) as well as the less conventional Light Screen and Stun Spore. Sadly, its her bulk is rather subpar for a purely defensive set (add comma) and she is prone to being outclassed by fellow Grass types Grass-types like Tangrowth and Ferroseed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Because of Lilligant's reliance on Hidden Power for coverage, many pokemon Pokemon wall her by virtue of their typing alone. Fire-types come in freely if Lilligant lacks a Rock-type move&mdash;notable examples are Magmortar, who avoids Sleep can avoid sleep with Vital Spirit, and Emboar, who tanks can tank any hit and OHKOs OHKO with Flare Blitz. Likewise, if Lilligant is using Hidden Power Fire, Steel- and Grass-types switch in with little worry. Roselia and Amoonguss are bulky enough to take even Hidden Power Fire and can hit Lilligant with Sludge Bomb. Escavalier can use Sleep Talk to OHKO Lilligant and walls her barring a Fire-type move Hidden Power Fire; other Steel-types like Klinklang also accomplish the same thing. As Lilligant rarely carries Hidden Power Ice, Druddigon can almost always phaze her out or outright KO her. Sap Sippers such as Bouffalant, Miltank (add comma) and Sawsbuck gain a boost from Giga Drain and care little about Lilligant's common coverage moves with the exception of Hidden Power Fire in Sawsbuck's case, while Drapion has the bulk to survive most hits and deals heavy damage back. Gallade takes even a +1 Giga Drain and can avoid Sleep sleep with a Lum Berry, while Choice Scarf Primeape bypasses Sleep sleep altogether with Vital Spirit. Lilligant also has a fair share of defensive checks. Clefable is not 2HKOd 2HKOed by +1 Giga Drain and can stop it her with status moves. Mandibuzz will take heavy damage from a possible Hidden Power Rock, but can use Whirlwind to reset Lilligant's boosts. Any bulky wall with Thunder Wave that can survive a hit can cripple Lilligant with Thunder Wave; since because she relies on Speed to sweep, paralysis is a dead stop. Cryogonal makes another excellent counter, taking hits with ease thanks to its phenomenal special bulk and ability to carry Haze and Ice Beam.</p>


    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  14. Omicron

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    No need to name the set "offensive quiver dance" if there's no "defensive" set in the main analysis. "Quiver Dance" will suffice :)
  15. citro

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    thanks a lot melvni I implemented your check! I managed to fit 'abuse' in there somehow even though I read the GP rules like 10 times x_x also ty for catching that Omicron I've fixed it now.
  16. jumpluff

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    Congratulations on your first analysis~ Be proud of yourself! :3

    [gp]2/2~[/gp]
  17. Honko

    Honko
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  18. citro

    citro

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    okay thanks for the check jumpluff, I accidentally added in some duplicate words while implementing melvni's changes... and cheers Honko, I've done that. so if I'm not mistaken this should be ready for upload!!
  19. Oglemi

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    uploaded

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