Lilligant (qc 0 /3)

[Ranger Mike]

Overview
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• Lilligant is one of the best pokemon in the NU metagame, being able to abuse Quiver Dance which raises its Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed.
• No more Dragalge makes Lilligant better than before.
• With Serperior banned there will (probably) be less Grass-type resistances and less competition for a teamslot.
• Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance can be lethal vs a multitude of playstyles.
• Due to its subpar movepool, it struggles to get past threats such as Typhlosion, Magmortar, and Klinklang depending on which Hidden Power is used, especially when Sleep Clause is activated.
• Rather frail on the physical side.

Quiver Dance
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name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Rock
ability: Chlorophyll
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Quiver Dance is a fantastic setup move, raising Lilligant's Special attack, Special Defense, and Speed.
• Giga Drain allows Lilligant to cancel out Life Orb recoil by gaining back health.
• Sleep Powder eases prediction and allows for lots of setup opportunities.
• The type of Hidden Power depends of what your team needs to lure in.
• Fire is used to nail Steel-types such as Ferroseed.
• Rock can be used to not give pokemon like Typhlosion a free turn without relying on sleep turns.
• Substitute can be used over Hidden Power, although never use Substitute in tandem with Lum Berry as that is incredibly redundant.

Set Details
========

• EV spread maximizes firepower and speed.
• Life Orb allows Lilligant to hit much harder at the cost of recoil, however, this is for the most part negated because of Giga Drain.
• Lum Berry can be used if you are weary of status, namely paralysis.

Usage Tips
========

• Lilligant is a rather straightforward mon.
• When wishing to set up Quiver Dances, unless you are up against a Grass-type, use Sleep Powder for an easier setup.
• Although rather obvious, don't set up on pokemon with a type that is super effective against Lilligant.
• If the opposing team has a Bouffalant, play cautiously, because a +1 Bouffalant is a very threatening pokemon.

Team Options
========

• Lilligant is best used on offensively oriented teams.
• Entry hazards are a good thing to have when using Lilligant, as 4 of the 5 types that hit lilligant super effectively are weak to Stealth Rock.
• Pokemon that can beat Fire-types, such as Hariyama, are greatly appreciated, Hariyama also comes with a nifty Ice-type resistance.
• Psychic-types can beat the Poison-types that trouble Lilligant. Good examples include Uxie, Musharna, and Mesprit.

Choice Scarf
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name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Healing Wish
move 2: Leaf Storm / Petal Dance
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Hidden Power Rock
ability: Chlorophyll / Own Tempo
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 spd
nature: Timid

(haven't used this set very much, wouldn't be opposed to someone else writing this set up)
Moves
========

• Healing Wish is a terrific move, letting Lilligant heal up your win condition or just a teammate, albeit at the cost of Lilligant's life.
• Leaf Storm is a very powerful Grass-type move, at the cost of lowering your Special Attack by two stages. However, this is not much of an issue as scarf Lilligant is best used as a revenge killer.
• Petal Dance is slightly less powerful than Leaf storm, but does not lower special attack. Unfortunately, Petal Dance makes Lilligant have to stay in for 2-3 turns, making it more prone to revenge killers.
• Alternately, you can run both Grass-type moves at the cost of cutting either Healing Wish or Sleep Powder.
• Although not an attacking move, Sleep Powder is a nice move to pester switch-ins.
• Hidden Power Rock is good to lure in the Fire-types that Lilligant often attracts.

Set Details
========

• EV spread allows Lilligant to have maximum attack power and be as fast as possible.
• Choice Scarf transforms Lilligant into a pretty good revenge killer.
• Chlorophyll allows Lilligant to hold its own against sun teams, although they aren't very common.
• If you are scared of confusion, or are using Petal Dance, use Own Tempo as you are immune to confusion.

Usage Tips
========

• As stated previously, this version of Lilligant is a Revenge Killer so it shouldn't tried to be used as a sweeper like the previous set.
• However, scarf Lilligant can clean up late game when its counters are fainted.
• Be very careful when using Petal Dance, as one wrong move can result in Lilligant fainting.
• Use Healing Wish to heal a teammate, in addition it is advised that Lilligant uses Healing Wish at a point where it will probably faint, because you do not want to sack it too early.

Team Options
========

• Although this Lilligant doesn't really rely on teammates, pokemon that beat Grass and Steel-types are nice because Lilligant cannot beat them unless Hidden Power Fire is ran.
• Pokemon that can remove entry hazards, such as Cryogonal and Kabutops, are nice because this Lilligant comes in mulitple times.

Other Options
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• Very limited movepool
• Swords Dance
• Heal Bell
• Sunnybeam
• Double Powder

Checks & Counters
########
**Fire-types**: Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Magmortar can severely maim, if not one shot Lilligant, but if Lilligant has Hidden Power Rock then they aren't as much of a problem.

**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume can wall and take out Lilligant without Hidden Power Fire.

**Bouffalant**: Bouffalant can switch in on all of Lilligant's attacks with ease, even snagging a boost when switching into a Grass-type move.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Chloro should be the main ability as it allows you to beat up on sun teams, and own tempo will rarely come into play unless you're against a chatot

 

[Blast]

I haven't used Scarf a whole lot but I probably wouldn't use HP Fire most of the time, it's a lot better on QD because it can actually break through bulky Grasses which are its main target. I'd also make note you can opt to drop one of Healing Wish or Sleep Powder in favor of a Grass move if you dislike choosing between one or the other

Lum should also be a secondary slash on QD, and the EV spreads for both sets should just be max SpA / max Spe Timid

 

[Ares]

Ranger Dave when will this be completed?

 

[Ranger Mike]

I will try to have it in qc phase by midnight cst

 

[Ranger Mike]

Alright this is qc ready.

 

[Punchshroom]

Overview
########
No more Dragalge makes Lilligant better than before.
With Serperior banned there will (probably) be less Grass-type resistances.
Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance can be lethal vs a multitude of playstyles.
Gives Typhlosion free turns, which is not good.
Rather frail

- You should probably start by listing Lilligant's niche, aka what makes it so dangerous in the first place (great boosting move which boosts ??? stats + STAB recovery attack)
- If Lilli has improved, how good is it now? Is it a top threat to be prepared for?
- Serp's departure also means less competition for a moveslot
- Typhlosion is a specific example, mention that Lilli's limited coverage can expose it to various threats such as etc. etc., especially if Sleep Clause has been activated.
- Special bulk is patched up by Quiver + Giga, mention its mediocre physical defense can leave it vulnerable to priority attacks or physical Scarf Pokemon.

Fire is used to nail Steel-types such as Ferroseed.
Rock can be used to not give pokemon like Typhlosion a free turn without relying on sleep turns.

- Hidden Power Fire is also used to hit Grass-types looking to absorb Sleep Powder, such as Vileplume and opposing Lilligant.
- Hidden Power Rock also nails Flying-types, such as Swellow, Xatu, and Scyther (the former two of which can also absorb Sleep Powder). Hitting Vital Spirit Magmortar is way more important for Lilligant than hitting Typhlosion as well.

Although rather obvious, don't set up on pokemon with a type that is super effective against Lilligant.
If the opposing team has a Bouffalant, play cautiously, because a +1 Bouffalant is a very threatening pokemon.

- This is actually false, as Lilligant can totally set up on unSTAB Ice Beams from slower Water-types and heal off the damage with boosted Giga Drains. Instead, be more cautious with Lilligant when setting up on physical foes that it can force out, such as Rhydon and Feraligatr.
- Why not just say play carefully against Sleep Powder absorbers in general? Bouffalant may be scary after a Sap Sipper boost but the likes of Swellow, Magmortar, and even Jumpluff can be threatening if given the free switch. You should also make a note on Sleep Powder possibly being wasted on the opponent's useless fodder.

Entry hazards are a good thing to have when using Lilligant, as 4 of the 5 types that hit lilligant super effectively are weak to Stealth Rock.
Pokemon that can beat Fire-types, such as Hariyama, are greatly appreciated, Hariyama also comes with a nifty Ice-type resistance.
Psychic-types can beat the Poison-types that trouble Lilligant. Good examples include Uxie, Musharna, and Mesprit.

- Example of entry hazard users? Which ones would synergise well with Lilligant, be it defensively or offensively?
- Your team options could use some expanding. Is Hariyama really the only option available to handle Fire-types (and would it be necessary if Lilli has HP Rock?)?. Are Psychic-types the only things capable of dealing with Poison-types? Would these options synergise well offensively / defensively with Lilli?

Petal Dance is slightly less powerful than Leaf storm, but does not lower special attack. Unfortunately, Petal Dance makes Lilligant have to stay in for 2-3 turns, making it more prone to revenge killers.
Alternately, you can run both Grass-type moves at the cost of cutting either Healing Wish or Sleep Powder.
Although not an attacking move, Sleep Powder is a nice move to pester switch-ins.
Hidden Power Rock is good to lure in the Fire-types that Lilligant often attracts.

- You can note that Petal Dance's other effect, aka confusion, would be negated by Own Tempo, so while being locked in can be a bother for Lilligant, it makes for a much better cleaning attack.
- Considering that Healing Wish and the fast Sleep Powder are Scarf Lilligant's biggest perks, I'd sooner get rid of Hidden Power if I were to fit both Grass moves, eschewing coverage for sheer consistency and usefulness. Also, this statement should probably be stated last, after all the moves on the set receive their mention.
- Scarf Sleep Powder can be used as a failsafe button, putting a threat quickly out of commission.
- Mention why Hidden Power Rock is chosen over Hidden Power Fire; namely that HP Rock can target the numerous Fire- and Flying-types such as Pyroar, Archeops, and Swellow that Lilligant can now outrun, whereas unboosted Hidden Power Fire is too weak against most Steel-types and opposing Grass-types.

Although this Lilligant doesn't really rely on teammates, pokemon that beat Grass and Steel-types are nice because Lilligant cannot beat them unless Hidden Power Fire is ran.

- Such as?
- Also, teammates that find themselves worn down throughout the match, such as Typhlosion, Pyroar, Mega Steelix, Hariyama... or Pokemon that appreciate a second chance at sweeping, such as Feraligatr or Mismagius, can make great use of the Healing Wish support.

Other Options
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• Very limited movepool
• Swords Dance
• Heal Bell
• Sunnybeam
• Double Powder

- I don't think anyone would even use Swords Dance Lilli when u just said its movepool is terrible, and doesn't even have the physical equivalent of Hidden Power.
- Sleep Powder + Dream Eater may be appealing for those who want to lure in Poison-types, so you should list here why that would be a bad idea (targets can switch, useless without surprise factor, no coverage on awake targets, etc.).
- Lilligant is one of the faster users of Worry Seed, so this can be used as a soft-check to Malamar, and screw with RestTalkers in general. Obviously this move has very miniscule uses outside of that so don't rate it highly :/

Checks & Counters
########
**Fire-types**: Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Magmortar can severely maim, if not one shot Lilligant, but if Lilligant has Hidden Power Rock then they aren't as much of a problem.
**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume can wall and take out Lilligant without Hidden Power Fire.

**Bouffalant**: Bouffalant can switch in on all of Lilligant's attacks with ease, even snagging a boost when switching into a Grass-type move.

- Not sure about Grass-types being good responses to Lilligant considering most of them, such as Tangela, Torterra, and Gourgeist, can all be used as setup fodder. I think it'd be better to combine them + Bouffalant into the section listed below.
- Bouffalant, as well as the Grass-types mentioned above, can be lumped into sections called "Sleep Powder absorbers". This can include Pokemon such as Swellow, Magmortar, Xatu, which can switch into Sleep Powder and threaten Lilligant out. RestTalkers, even ones threatened by Lilligant such as Poliwrath, can try to take the Sleep Powder for the team and trigger Sleep Clause so that bulkier teammate can take on Lilligant without fear of being put to sleep.
- Poison-types can stop Lilligant as they aren't weak to most, if not any of Lilligant's moves. Garbodor, Weezing, and Muk can do well at stopping Lilligant, although they require Sleep Clause to be triggered beforehand to respond to Lilligant properly; Garbodor and Weezing can even disrupt Lilligant with Clear Smog. Poison-types with Grass-typing, such as Vileplume and Roselia, also do a decent job at stopping Lilligant, although they can face issues against boosted Hidden Power Fires while their Sludge Bombs are weakened by Quiver Dance.

 

[marilli]

btw you shouldn't talk about 'with A gone' analyses don't care about the history of the tier soon it'd be irrelevant that Serperior was ever in the metagame lol

ik its ok if ur just pointing out changes compared to xy analyses but the final product shouldn't have those

also punchie ik niche moves make you think naughty things at night but worry seed on something not very bulky is pretty dumb

if you wanted a bulky fast worry seeder to switch into malamar and beat it you'd use like ~utility jumpluff~ or like ~defensive leafeon~ not ~utility lilligant that has counter synergy with its own Sleep Powder~

edit: ik other options are supposed to include sketchy moves but if you're using a niche move that would be considered rather sketchy on better users, it's even worse than that lol i honestly think SD lilli is more useful than worry seed lilli ....

 

[Punchshroom]

worry seed on something not very bulky is pretty dumb

>Will-O-Wisp on Pyroar is standard

We can both agree that SD and Worry Seed are pretty shit, I even said not to rate the move highly (though at least Worry Seed can be thrown on as some last-ditch tech move unlike SD js).

 

[ryan]

The Overview and the entire analysis is deceptive in saying that Lilligant gives free switches to Typhlosion and other offensive Fire-types. While it's true that Liligant rarely carries coverage for them, it still does a good chunk to Typhlosion with Giga Drain, which weakens its Eruption. If it comes in on the revenge, you can put it to sleep if you have up a Quiver Dance. Lilligant definitely doesn't do well against Typhlosion, but it doesn't really give it free switches either. I'd just tone it down a bit on this. You can still say that Fire-types can switch into it or threaten it, but I'd rather you not imply that Typhlosion can switch in and not give a fuck.

Hidden Power Rock isn't very good. You miss out on coverage against bulky Grass-types, which is decidedly more important than hitting Fire-types. The only relevant Bug-types in NU are Scyther and Accelgor, both of which you can beat with Hidden Power Fire. I think the last move should be Hidden Power Fire / Nature Power. Nature Power is stronger than Hidden Power against neutral targets (of which there will be many because its coverage is poor), dodges Sucker Punch, and has a 30% chance to status the opponent. Ferroseed is really uncommon with Mega Steelix in the tier, so Hidden Power Fire isn't as necessary as it once was, and hitting things neutrally is generally more relevant.

I like Meadow Plate more than Life Orb on the Quiver Dance set. You mostly click your Grass STAB when you're attacking anyways.

Hidden Power Rock seems like ass on Scarf as well. I'd rather see that slot as Giga Drain / Leaf Storm / Hidden Power Fire. Giga Drain means you can stay in for however long you'd like as compared to Leaf Storm, which forces you out immediately, and Petal Dance, which forces you to stay in for two to three turns. Leaf Storm is still good on a hit-and-run attacker, so I'd definitely run Petal Dance / Leaf Storm.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

fwiw I ran HP Ice on my Lilligant to hit Flying-types as well as Grass-types. Idk what the slashes should be though but Fire / Nature Power with Rock and Ice in moves sounds fine to me

For scarf: idk, you're still not damaging any grasses with HP Fire while at least you can nab Typhlosion and the like with HP Rock. I agree though that multiple Grass moves on Scarf Lilligant is probably the better option and I'd rather see the moves be Healing Wish / Leaf Storm / [Sleep Powder | Petal Dance] / [Giga Drain | Petal Dance]. Yes, I have run all three of those moves on one Pokemon before as they all come in handy in certain situations and I found myself not using Sleep Powder as much. Giga Drain is sorta the middle ground, Leaf Storm is when you need the power, while Petal Dance is when you need the power for multiple opponents but I felt it was the least useful of the three. we'll see what the rest of QC thinks though because their experiences are probably different from mine. And I think Leaf Storm should get a slash of its own whichever the case because being forced to revenge kill with Petal Dance is terrible if their Fire-type / resist is still alive and Leaf Storm is the most reliable in such cases.

(Also I still think Scarf Lilligant is pretty mediocre because its coverage is ass and I'm a little inclined to reject it but whatever :s )

 

[ryan]

Nah Scarf Lilligant is really strong, especially when you pair it with things that can lure Poison-types.

I'm alright with HP Rock over HP Fire. I guess hitting bulky Grass-types doesn't matter as much when you're not trying to sweep. Petal Dance is just really, really good at cleaning late-game. Strongly against HP Rock on the Quiver set, however.

 

[soulgazer]

mention petal dance in the QD's Moves as an alternative that gives you more power instead of recovery. only use it with Own Tempo too.

hp rock on QD is meh. I would rather use Hidden Power Ice / Fire / even Flying (Virizion :O, hits every grass-types/bug-types and even does a bit more than Giga Drain against Fighting-types I think lol-> definitely mention hp flying somewhere

mention sleep powder + dream eater in oo :)

dont mention sd, its just bad. same for double powder

talk about a Life Orb set with Healing wish and Sleep Powder in OO imo. Leaf Storm / Hidden Powder / Sleep Powder / Healing Wish with Life Orb is cool

add more stuff in team options; lilligant hate sneasel, talk about a teammate or two that can deal with it. garbodor works well with lilli because it can easily set up hazards on what handles lilligant on the opponent's team, etc.

update the analyse with the drops (if necessary, virizion is kinda huge since it gives lilligant a bit of competition as an offensive grass-type now). remove every mentions of kabutops and accelgor.

Ranger Dave I also have no idea if you did the above! dont be afraid to post to tell us you did it since we won't always check the OP to see if you updated it or not.

 

[Punchshroom]

Just wanted to add that Ranger Dave doesn't seem to have touched this thread since ~Jan 25/26, so this may have to be reassigned soon. Just in case though...

hp rock on QD is meh. I would rather use Hidden Power Ice / Fire / even Flying (Virizion :O, hits every grass-types/bug-types and even does a bit more than Giga Drain against Fighting-types I think lol-> definitely mention hp flying somewhere

To add onto this, all of HP Rock's main targets (Fire-types and Scyther) can be softened up nicely by Stealth Rock as it is, so that they can be brought down by boosted Grass STAB and Hidden Power respectively.

C&C needs to mention Magmortar's Vital Spirit. Also various Choice Scarf Pokemon such as Jynx, Typhlosion, and Scyther can revenge Lilli after +1.

 

[Ranger Mike]

I just am waiting to implement a lot of things because you guys seem to have some differing opinions. Will edit it fully today.

 

[ryan]

mention sleep powder + dream eater in oo :).

,

let me know when you update and I'll prob stamp.

 

[Blast]

Ranger Helmut you have 24 hours to reply and 72 to update this or I'm reassigning

 

[Ranger Mike]

Will do asap

 

[marilli]

- Scarf Sleep Powder can be used as a failsafe button, putting a threat quickly out of commission.

I was just reminded of this. This was actually nagging me for awhile and I knew it was the Lilligant analysis that made me think about Scarf Sleep Powder in general, couldn't pinpoint exactly what comment in the thread prompted me, but here I am now to disagree with this point by punchshroom.

It is an understatement of the year to say I'm not a fan of Scarfed Sleep Powder, especially not in this context. Scarfed Sleep Powder should only be used when there's an obvious switch-out to a non-bouffalant / magmortar / grass-type switch-in, but you're unsure what they will switch to. All the super secure switch-ins that they're guaranteed to make are immune to Sleep Powder anyways. And if there's a huge threat to ur team he's obviously not gonna sack / let it get sleep foddered by Lilligant.

This implies that you're switching to a threat after a down to sleep powder it. This is a terrible play. I feel Sleep Powder is actually really situational, and it is most definitely not the main niche of Scarfed Lilligant. Main niche of Scarf Lilligant is 1. Fast Healing Wish. 2. Fast Water-resist that can resist Gatr for offense. Sleep Powder is not necessary, but not being forced to lock into Petal Dance will help with the main function of Scarf Lilli, which requires that it doesn't get stuck out there vs. a Virizion or Viloplume and die in vain.

If there's a threat out of control, switching in a scarfed Pokemon on the revenge just to to Sleep Powder and switch out is not a good play. You're saying "if I don't get the 25% chance to get a max sleep roll I'm toast anyways, so gonna fish for the 25% over 0% chance of winning." It is the ultimate last resort play...

 

[Ares]

This is being reassigned, last update was February 2nd.