Lilligant (QC: 1/3) Dropped, please move to L&O

[Empress]

Taken over from Ranger Helmut

Lilligant
QC: 1/3 (boltsandbombers)
GP: 0/2

Overview
########

+ Has access to an amazing boosting move in Quiver Dance
+ Sleep Powder makes it easier for Lilligant to set up on offensive and defensive foes alike
+ Just enough Special Attack and Speed to be a solid late-game cleaner
+ Destroys the bulky Water-types of NU
+ Gets several chances to attempt a sweep
- Has few coverage options
- Vulnerable to offensive pressure

Quiver Dance
########
name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Nature Power
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Chlorophyll
item: Life Orb / Miracle Seed
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

- Quiver Dance is a very strong boosting move, raising Lilligant's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed to strong levels
- Giga Drain is a reliable STAB attack that gives Lilligant a form of recovery; the move also heals off Life Orb recoil and makes Lilligant difficult to pick off with priority
- Hidden Power Fire is used to hit the Bug-, Grass- and Steel-types that resist Giga Drain, such as Scyther, Klinklang, Mawile, Exeggutor, and Ferroseed
- Nature Power, which turns into Tri Attack, has great neutral coverage alongside Giga Drain and hits Poison-types much harder than Hidden Power Fire. Its ability to occasionally land a status ailment on foes can give Lilligant an easier time sweeping as well
- Sleep Powder allows Lilligant to put a slower foe to sleep, giving her a free turn to set up a Quiver Dance and 2HKO some of her checks while they are asleep

Set Details
========

- Maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed allow Lilligant to hit as hard and as quickly as possible
- A Timid nature is necessary to outspeed common NU threats in Mesprit, Sawk, and, most notably, Rotom-S
- Life Orb significantly increases Lilligant's damage output, while Miracle Seed boosts the power of Giga Drain without wearing Lilligant down
- Chlorophyll has limited use in helping Lilligant work as a check to sun teams

Usage Tips
========

- Lilligant makes a great mid-game sweeper with the ability to put foes to sleep, as well as a late-game cleaner
- Typically, only use Sleep Powder on foes Lilligant cannot set up on, or foes she can't OHKO
- You can lead with Lilligant in order to put a suicide hazard lead to sleep
- Come in on a Pokemon that cannot 2HKO Lilligant, put it to sleep with Sleep Powder, then set up Quiver Dance
- Lilligant needs multiple Quiver Dance boosts to stand a chance against Choice Scarf users faster than her, particularly Scyther and Haunter
- At +1, Lilligant can survive critical special attacks, such as Ludicolo's Ice Beam and Xatu's Psychic

Team Options
========

- A Stealth Rock setter such as Archeops can wear down Lilligant's checks, particularly Magmortar, Scyther, and Sneasel. Bulky Archeops can also deal with the Flying- and Fire-types that threaten Lilligant
- Fire- and Ice-types such as Typhlosion and Sneasel, respectively, will take on the Grass-types that wall Lilligant which lack Hidden Power Fire. The aforementioned Pokemon also enjoy Lilligant's ability to eliminate Water-types such as Seismitoad and Samurott
- A Fighting-type such as Gurdurr or Sawk will threaten Bouffalant, which is a cold stop to Lilligant
- Psychic-types such as Mesprit threaten the Poison-types that Lilligant baits in
- Sneasel can Pursuit trap some of Lilligant's checks, including Xatu and non-Choice Scarf Magmortar

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Healing Wish
move 2: Leaf Storm / Petal Dance
move 3: Petal Dance / Giga Drain
move 4: Hidden Power Rock / Nature Power
ability: Chlorophyll / Own Tempo
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

- Healing Wish is used to bring a weakened Pokemon back to full health
- Leaf Storm is an extremely powerful STAB attack
- Petal Dance can be used if Lilligant is to stay in and clean up
- Giga Drain helps Lilligant recover HP, but it is weak without a boost
- Hidden Power Rock picks off weakened Fire-types and surprises Scyther
- Nature Power turns into Tri Attack, which has great neutral coverage alongside Lilligant's Grass-type attacks
- Alternatively, Hidden Power Fire will hit Grass-types slightly harder

Set Details
========

- Maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed allow Lilligant to hit as hard and as quickly as possible
- A Choice Scarf makes Lilligant work very well as a late-game cleaner in addition to a fast supporter, while a Timid nature lets Lilligant outspeed Choice Scarf Mesprit and Rotom-S
- Chlorophyll has limited use in helping Lilligant work as a check to sun teams
- If running Petal Dance, Own Tempo is preferred to block the confusion that Petal Dance inflicts on Lilligant

Usage Tips
========

- Lilligant should not be your team's primary attacker, though she makes a fine late-game cleaner if need be. Try not to send Lilligant out in the early-game because she will be walled too easily and Healing Wish support is often not vital until the late-game
- If you have eliminated the opponent's Grass resists, feel free to lock into Petal Dance. Conversely, use Leaf Storm in a hit-and-run strategy to revenge kill or dent opposing switch-ins
- Keep Lilligant around in the late-game to use Healing Wish, bringing your team's win condition back to full HP and removing any status problems

Team Options
========

- Lilligant does not need a lot of support; instead, you need teammates that she can support
- Dedicated late-game sweepers such as Sneasel, Barbaracle, and Mismagius enjoy being returned to full health with Healing Wish, enabling them to clean up the opposing team
- As Lilligant will be switching out frequently, an entry hazard remover such as Cryogonal and Mantine will give her an easier time entering and exiting the battlefield
- Wallbreakers such as Typhlosion and Tauros will wear down the opposing team, allowing Lilligant to clean up with Petal Dance
- Fire-types such as Pyroar will take on the Bug-, Grass-, and Steel-types that wall Lilligant, such as Scyther, Exeggutor, and Mawile
- Psychic-types such as Mesprit threaten the Poison-types that Lilligant baits in
- Water-types such as Samurott force out the Fire-types that switch in on Lilligant

Other Options
########

- Substitute is a good option on the Quiver Dance set to block opposing status moves and resisted attacks. It also gives Lilligant a shield on a predicted switch to one of her offensive checks
- Aromatherapy is another way to support the team, but Lilligant is not bulky enough to be a good user of the move
- Leech Seed can be used to wear down defensive foes and prolong Lilligant's longevity on the battlefield

Checks & Counters
########

**Bouffalant**: Thanks to Sap Sipper, Bouffalant counters Lilligant completely.

**Fire-types**: Assault Vest Magmortar is a complete counter to Lilligant, tanking all of her attacks and being immune to Sleep Powder thanks to Vital Spirit. Ninetales and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant and hit her super effectively with their STAB attacks, but they cannot switch into Sleep Powder and must be careful of Hidden Power Rock.

**Choice Scarf Users**: Choice Scarf Rotom-S outspeeds unboosted Lilligant and often OHKOes her with Air Slash, while Choice Scarf Haunter, Typhlosion, and Scyther outspeed and OHKO Lilligant even after a Quiver Dance.

**Flying-types**: Scyther, Swellow, and Archeops all outspeed unboosted Lilligant, while Xatu is immune to Sleep Powder because of Magic Bounce. None of them can take a boosted Hidden Power Rock, though, and Swellow and Archeops still take significant damage from a +1 Giga Drain.

**Grass-types**: The Grass-type's immunity to Sleep Powder makes it more difficult for Lilligant to use Sleep Powder. However, the likes of Exeggutor, Cacturne, Tangela, and Vileplume must be careful of Hidden Power Fire.

**Poison-types**: Garbodor and Weezing can wall Lilligant and deal serious damage to her with their STAB attacks, but they do take significant damage from a boosted Nature Power.

 

[Punchshroom]

- A Jolly nature is necessary to outspeed common NU threats in Mesprit, Sawk, and, most notably, Rotom-S

 

[Empress]

Whoops- meant Timid.

 

[Ares]

Overview

- Typically, Lilligant only gets one chance to attempt a sweep

w0t? Giga Drain means you can get back up to full or to a decent health and Sleep Powder means you can continue to set up at any point in the game. You are also going to try to sweep at the end of the game so typically if you mess up you've lost.
[/quote]- Most of her viable moves have low base Power[/quote]
you can combine this with the above and say that lilli's coverage, HP, is weak and generally only hits things supereffectively that also resist giga drain

Set

ability: Own Tempo

This should be Chlorophyll, being able to outrun Sun teams and be a secondary check is much more useful than the occasional confusion.

UT

- As Lilligant is easily walled due to her poor offensive movepool, she should be used as a late-game cleaner

Lilli isn't walled to easily tbh. The only thing that hard walls Lilligant is sap sippers (mostly bouff). Anything that you can't threaten out or OHKO you can put to sleep. Sleeping threats is why Lilligant is terrifying, combined with its amazing boosting move and recovery move in Giga Drain.

- Use Sleep Powder on predicted switches, but do not abuse the move if the opponent has a Grass-type

I would save using Sleep Powder tbh, I use Sleep Powder when I'm starting to setup (aka if I cant setup on anything remaining on the other team or can't force a switch) or when I can't OHKO a Pokemon with Giga Drain or Hidden Power (like Typhlosion). The only other time I tend to use Sleep Powder outside of the aforementioned situation is when there is a suicide hazard lead that I can't OHKO or stop from setting up hazards, I would change this point on how to use Sleep Powder to what I said about sweeping with it and to say you can lead with Lilligant to stop hazard setters or to put a lead mon to sleep.

- Lilligant needs multiple Quiver Dance boosts to stand a chance against Choice Scarf users faster than her, particularly Typhlosion, Scyther, and Pyroar

I guess this info is relevant, but its not really as important as how to setup QDs and how to sweep. Please add those ahead of this line.

TO

- A Stealth Rock setter such as Archeops can give Lilligant an easier time landing KOs. Should Lilligant be running Hidden Power Fire, Archeops can deal with the Flying- and Fire-types that threaten Lilligant

What KO's are these? Yah Stealth Rock is good (cause it breaks sashes and sturdy and provides chip damage), but is there a KO I'm forgetting that Stealth Rock helps lilli with?

You need more options, its a decent start but saying something to help for the Hidden Powers and Bouff isn't much.

Edit: This also needs a Choice Scarf set, talked with QC and its good enough to get one.

 

[Empress]

Overview

w0t? Giga Drain means you can get back up to full or to a decent health and Sleep Powder means you can continue to set up at any point in the game. You are also going to try to sweep at the end of the game so typically if you mess up you've lost.

you can combine this with the above and say that lilli's coverage, HP, is weak and generally only hits things supereffectively that also resist giga drain

Set

This should be Chlorophyll, being able to outrun Sun teams and be a secondary check is much more useful than the occasional confusion.

UT

Lilli isn't walled to easily tbh. The only thing that hard walls Lilligant is sap sippers (mostly bouff). Anything that you can't threaten out or OHKO you can put to sleep. Sleeping threats is why Lilligant is terrifying, combined with its amazing boosting move and recovery move in Giga Drain.

I would save using Sleep Powder tbh, I use Sleep Powder when I'm starting to setup (aka if I cant setup on anything remaining on the other team or can't force a switch) or when I can't OHKO a Pokemon with Giga Drain or Hidden Power (like Typhlosion). The only other time I tend to use Sleep Powder outside of the aforementioned situation is when there is a suicide hazard lead that I can't OHKO or stop from setting up hazards, I would change this point on how to use Sleep Powder to what I said about sweeping with it and to say you can lead with Lilligant to stop hazard setters or to put a lead mon to sleep.

I guess this info is relevant, but its not really as important as how to setup QDs and how to sweep. Please add those ahead of this line.

TO

What KO's are these? Yah Stealth Rock is good (cause it breaks sashes and sturdy and provides chip damage), but is there a KO I'm forgetting that Stealth Rock helps lilli with?

You need more options, its a decent start but saying something to help for the Hidden Powers and Bouff isn't much.

Edit: This also needs a Choice Scarf set, talked with QC and its good enough to get one.

Implemented the above changes and working on the Scarf set now.

EDIT: Scarf set is done. Does it look right?

 

[Ares]

Comments on the scarf set in bold

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Sleep Powder this should be last or maybe not even on the set, some of the QC dislikes it a lot I'm personally indifferent but it should move down
move 2: Leaf Storm / Petal Dance
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Rock
move 4: Healing Wish this should be in the first or second slot, this is probably one of the biggest reasons to use Lilligant over another scarfer
ability: Chlorophyll / Own Tempo
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Team Options
Lilligant does not need a lot of support; instead, you need teammates that she can support such as?
- Dedicated late-game sweepers such as Sneasel enjoy being returned to full health with Healing Wish, enabling them to clean up the opposing team any others?
- As Lilligant will be switching out frequently, an entry hazard remover such as Cryogonal will give her an easier time entering and exiting the battlefield any others?
- Literally any Pokemon, offensive or defensive, will enjoy having Lilligant put one of their checks to sleep, allowing them at least one free turn to do whatever they wish the issue with sleep is that its one turn after you put them to sleep, one turn while you switch and then they usually wake up on the third turn.
Add in a couple more lines about when to lock into Petal Dance or when to spam Leaf Storm

Usage Tips
- Lilligant should not be your team's primary attacker, though she makes a fine late-game cleaner if need be so when else should I send in lilli?
- In the early- to mid-game, send Liligant in on walls or offensive Pokemon that she can outspeed and put to sleep sleep is meh, move this to the bottom or you should say you should put Pokemon to sleep on the predicted switch as this will give you more sleep turns
- Keep Lilligant around in the late-game to use Healing Wish, bringing your team's win condition back to full HP and removing any status problems

C&C is also gonna need to be expanded on during write up (just letting you know if you wanna do it now).

 

[Blast]

Yeah Sleep Powder is bad on Scarf Lilli, it's an extremely unreliable "last-ditch" option vs sweepers and just doesn't make use of it as well as Quiver Dance does.

Healing Wish should definitely be move 1. The set should be something like Healing Wish | (Petal Dance / Leaf Storm) | (Giga Drain / Petal Dance) | Hidden Power. You really want two Grass STABs because all three have drawbacks (Petal Dance locks you in, Leaf Storm lowers SpA, Giga is weak). HP Rock should probably be first on Scarf as well because Scarf HP Fire can't break through bulky Grasses like Quiver Dance can.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Leaf Storm probably deserves a slot of its own. It's the grass STAB with the least drawbacks as it's a powerful enough move for revenge killing and doesn't lock Lilligant in.

 

[Empress]

Montsegur Dat Blast and scorpdestroyer I've made changes accordingly.

Montsegur I will try and expand the C&C section soon.

 

[boltsandbombers]

In moves of first set, add Ferroseed to what HP fire hits.

You have no examples of what HP rock targets, add some there.
Ex: scyther, pyroar, typh, Magmortar, xatu, etc

 

[Empress]

In moves of first set, add Ferroseed to what HP fire hits.

You have no examples of what HP rock targets, add some there.
Ex: scyther, pyroar, typh, Magmortar, xatu, etc

Did this.

EDIT: Wow I made it to message #666

 

[boltsandbombers]

Wait why did you remove eggy and mawile? Those are decent targets for hp fire as well, also toss in klinklang there as well.
Also you wrote ferrothorn, not seed >.>

 

[CanadianWifier]

on the first set, HP rock really really doesn't deserve a slash, moves at best. All it really hits is Typhlosion, which you can put to sleep, and it loses you out on literally every steel-type.
Also, I'd slash Life Orb before Lum Berry. (hell, I even use Miracle Seed > Lum Berry, Lum's use seems very limited to me outside of tspikes)

 

[scorpdestroyer]

yeah I never used Lum and I think it shouldn't be slashed at all actually. Nature Power is pretty legit too and should be in OO at least or even moves if other QC agree

 

[Empress]

CanadianWifier and scorpdestroyer, changes implemented. What use does Nature Power have on Lilligant?

 

[boltsandbombers]

Nature Power doesnt hit anything specific, it just has solid neutral coverage alongside giga drain (turns into tri attack if you didnt know and the 20% chance for a status effect can be useful)
edit: it hits poisons like garbodor and weezing which is cool
I'd like to see it in moves, although if someone else strongly would rather have it in OO thats fine.
I think hollywood used nature power lilli a bit as it was in his rmt, thoughts?

 

[CanadianWifier]

hp rock is still just chilling there as a slash. seriously remove it and stuff it in moves or OO :)

nature power is good, probably just a strong moves mention tho; unless someone really wants it to replace hp rock as a slash

 

[ryan]

nature power is my favorite on QD unless you're weak to rotom-s or somethin then I run hp ice. ferroseed is almost no where so I like hp ice more than hp fire too.

hp rock sucks because you can't touch bulky grasses with it

 

[Empress]

boltsandbombers CanadianWifier hollywood I've implemented your suggestions to the best of my ability. Does it look good?

 

[Blast]

HP Fire definitely still first slash, it also hits Klinklang Mawile and Pawniard which are all getting more popular. Either HP Ice or Nature Power can still be slashed behind.

Also HP Rock is not nearly as bad as you guys are making it out to be (even on QD) but w/e. HP Rock should still be the main slash on Scarf btw, no one told you to remove it there (hits weakened Fires and more importantly Evio Scyther)

 

[Empress]

HP Fire definitely still first slash, it also hits Klinklang Mawile and Pawniard which are all getting more popular. Either HP Ice or Nature Power can still be slashed behind.

Also HP Rock is not nearly as bad as you guys are making it out to be (even on QD) but w/e. HP Rock should still be the main slash on Scarf btw, no one told you to remove it there (hits weakened Fires and more importantly Evio Scyther)

Ok; did this. Still not sure about the current state this is in.

 

[boltsandbombers]

ok I'll look at this again

- Poor offensive movepool, with only Grass-type STAB attacks and Hidden Power. Hidden Power is also weak and is generally only used to hit Pokemon that are weak to it and resistant to Giga Drain

I mean we have nature power slashed so its not "only grass stab and hidden power" for its movepool so I'd rephrase that to something like it has very few coverage moves.

- Nature Power, which turns into Tri Attack, has great neutral coverage alongside Giga Drain. Its ability to occasionally land a status ailment on foes can give Lilligant an easier time sweeping as well

Also add that it hits bulky poisons mainly garbodor and weezing significantly harder than hp fire.

- Lilligant needs multiple Quiver Dance boosts to stand a chance against Choice Scarf users faster than her, particularly Typhlosion, Scyther, and Pyroar

Scarf pyroar is so bad, please replace with something like scarf haunter.

- A Stealth Rock setter such as Archeops can give Lilligant an easier time landing KOs. Archeops can also deal with the Flying- and Fire-types that threaten Lilligant

Specifically mention that only bulky archeops would be used "to help with fire and flying types" since 0/0 archeops takes a metric fuckton from specs typh eruption and camerupts fire blast. Lead SR archeops doesnt really help check those mons since it is a suicide lead and just gets up rocks and dies.

- Fire- and Ice-types such as Typhlosion and Sneasel, respectively, will take on the Grass-types that wall Lilligant. The aforementioned Pokemon also enjoy Lilligant's ability to eliminate Water-types such as Seismitoad and Samurott

They're not bad teammates by any means, but Grass types dont really wall lilligant. Vileplume, Ferroseed, and Exeggutor all take a hefty chunk from HP fire or flat out die after a boost or two. Non Spdef plume dies to +2 HP Fire [if it switches in on QD, lilli can just boost again since sludge bomb does max 75% to +1 spdef lilli after a boost]. Basically, they don't wall Lilligant by any means but they are checks. Your next bullet point is much better in regards to how a teammate handles a potential check / counter, which bouff is a full counter.

- Entry hazard removal from the likes of Mantine make it easier for Lilligant to switch in and attempt a sweep, as she will typically be switching in multiple times each game to set up

Claydol works fine here too since it likes the pressure lilligant puts on bulky waters, especially if its lacking grass knot.

Haven't used scarf lilli much but I have a general idea of how it works.
Don't really care about the slashes on scarf, but just get rid of hp ice.

- If the opponent does not have a bulky, Grass-resistant Pokemon, feel free to lock into Petal Dance. Conversely, use Leaf Storm in a hit-and-run strategy to revenge kill or dent opposing switch-ins

ok, what
Every single competent team has one of these. Even offensive teams have grass resists. Say that once you've removed grass resists / immunities, then you can spam grass moves.

Add in team options a bullet point for wallbreakers since scarf lilligant itself is a late game cleaner since storm is pretty strong late game once resists are removed.

Remove HP Psychic from OO, nature power already hits those 2 mons perfectly fine.

**Grass-types**: The Grass-type's immunity to Sleep Powder makes it more difficult for Lilligant to use Sleep Powder. Unless Lilligant carries Hidden Power Fire, she is walled by the likes of Exeggutor, Cacturne, Tangela, and Vileplume.

Saying "unless x carries something" is best suited for when a move is slashed / in moves / in oo, whereas HP is the first slash. Re-word this accordingly since I explained earlier how grass types arent the best of checks provided they switch into a quiver dance.

**Choice Scarf Users**: Choice Scarf Rotom-S outspeeds unboosted Lilligant and often OHKOes her with Air Slash, while Choice Scarf Pyroar, Typhlosion, and Scyther outspeed and OHKO Lilligant even after a Quiver Dance.

Again, I know its a set on the dex but I hate advocating its use because of how bad it is. Replace with Scarf Haunter.

**Poison-types**: Garbodor and Weezing wall Lilligant without the rare Hidden Power Psychic, and deal serious damage to her with their STAB attacks.

Remove the point about HP Psychic, and change that they take a decent chunk from boosted nature power.

Do this and I'll stamp.

 

[Empress]

ok I'll look at this again


I mean we have nature power slashed so its not "only grass stab and hidden power" for its movepool so I'd rephrase that to something like it has very few coverage moves.

Also add that it hits bulky poisons mainly garbodor and weezing significantly harder than hp fire.

Scarf pyroar is so bad, please replace with something like scarf haunter.

Specifically mention that only bulky archeops would be used "to help with fire and flying types" since 0/0 archeops takes a metric fuckton from specs typh eruption and camerupts fire blast. Lead SR archeops doesnt really help check those mons since it is a suicide lead and just gets up rocks and dies.

They're not bad teammates by any means, but Grass types dont really wall lilligant. Vileplume, Ferroseed, and Exeggutor all take a hefty chunk from HP fire or flat out die after a boost or two. Non Spdef plume dies to +2 HP Fire [if it switches in on QD, lilli can just boost again since sludge bomb does max 75% to +1 spdef lilli after a boost]. Basically, they don't wall Lilligant by any means but they are checks. Your next bullet point is much better in regards to how a teammate handles a potential check / counter, which bouff is a full counter.

Claydol works fine here too since it likes the pressure lilligant puts on bulky waters, especially if its lacking grass knot.

Haven't used scarf lilli much but I have a general idea of how it works.
Don't really care about the slashes on scarf, but just get rid of hp ice.

ok, what
Every single competent team has one of these. Even offensive teams have grass resists. Say that once you've removed grass resists / immunities, then you can spam grass moves.

Add in team options a bullet point for wallbreakers since scarf lilligant itself is a late game cleaner since storm is pretty strong late game once resists are removed.

Remove HP Psychic from OO, nature power already hits those 2 mons perfectly fine.


Saying "unless x carries something" is best suited for when a move is slashed / in moves / in oo, whereas HP is the first slash. Re-word this accordingly since I explained earlier how grass types arent the best of checks provided they switch into a quiver dance.

Again, I know its a set on the dex but I hate advocating its use because of how bad it is. Replace with Scarf Haunter.

Remove the point about HP Psychic, and change that they take a decent chunk from boosted nature power.

Do this and I'll stamp.

Did these.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Yeah this looks better.

QC 1/3

 

[Empress]

Yeah this looks better.

QC 1/3

Thanks :)
QC #2 time!