I've never played this, and it may be too late, however, instead of making linked moves use the lowest priority, why not just make it the sum of the two if the lowest has priority <0, and the mean of the two, rounded up, if the lowest is priority > or = 0 (I just realized I don't have that simbol on my phone, lol) or something? For example, ESpeed + Roar = -4 priority, ESpeed + quick attack = (2+1)/2=3=2. Idk, just a thought.
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- Thread starter Hack_Guy
- Start date
Umm... no. Making it the lowest priority already make it too offense based. I don't wanna see something like Dragonite's Espeed + Outrage have + 1 priority.
IMO, the mechanics should be changed a little if we want to make stall viable in this meta (no, not by banning things. It'll be too much to ban).
Why not make the linked moves only do 75% damage? That way, it won't be overpowered for stall.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Stall is actually pretty good. For example, Clefable can use Cosmic Power+Moonlight, MegaBro could use Calm Mind+Iron Defense, and other Pokemon have boost+Recovery or double boost moves to take advantage of. I don't think offense needs a nerf, or at least not right now.
Offense definitly need a nerf, at least for me. The only thing that makes Clefable viable is because of its Unaware that stop things like Swords Dance/Nasty Plot + an attacking move. I highly doubt it can take two attacks at once at +0/+0 defenses. For Mega Slowbro, not everything has Mega Slowbro's level of bulk. And even in standard OU (where pokes attack once in a turn), +1 SpD Mega Slowbro is kinda easy to overpower with some supereffective moves. I'm sure it will be easier here because pokes can have two attacks in a turn.
From my experience playing on the pandora ladder -and getting to the top multiple times, sadly the ladder is gone there now ;-;- I do not think that offense really has a strategy for lack of a better term that allows it it become overly strong. The fact that two stab moves can be linked together and used at once is to me the most broken thing for offense, but without changing the base forumla for the meta -getting rid of the linking of moves or nerfing them, which does not happen in game- I do not see a way that you can accurately balance the meta more towards stall's favor. I personally think that an offensive team with respective checks to things that stop your offensive sweep or other offensive pokes that beat your team is the best way to play this meta as of now.
Clefable @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Stored Power
This clefable is arguably the best check/counter to offense in this metagame. Switching in on setup pokes with ease and counter setting up on them, or if sent in safely, taking two stab attacks -barring things along the lines of specs and band users- and setting up defenses while healing off damage in the same turn. I have touched on this in the past so ill keep this short.
On the topic of stopping opposing counters to your offense, Amoonguss is one of the best ways to do it as it shuts down Clefable fairly easily barring having to come in on a stored power with +4 or higher on each defensive stat behind it.
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Clear Smog
Amoonguss puts clefable or most switchins to sleep and then proceeding to reset clefable's stats in which it will then have no way to beat Amoonguss or switch out to an answer to the switch and gain back hp by regenerator.
0 SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 374-440 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
This calc is reason enough to have Amoonguss on your team as an answer to defense.
Tl;Dr Offense is very strong but I do not thing there is a way to nerf it without breaking the base formula of the meta -But that choice is up to Hack_guy- There are some checks to offense but they can be beaten.
Clefable @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Stored Power
This clefable is arguably the best check/counter to offense in this metagame. Switching in on setup pokes with ease and counter setting up on them, or if sent in safely, taking two stab attacks -barring things along the lines of specs and band users- and setting up defenses while healing off damage in the same turn. I have touched on this in the past so ill keep this short.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 85-101 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion has to run scarf and jolly in order to not be outsped by scarf manaphy, unless it runs band it cannot break it.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 128-151 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion has to run scarf and jolly in order to not be outsped by scarf manaphy, unless it runs band it cannot break it.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 128-151 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On the topic of stopping opposing counters to your offense, Amoonguss is one of the best ways to do it as it shuts down Clefable fairly easily barring having to come in on a stored power with +4 or higher on each defensive stat behind it.
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Clear Smog
Amoonguss puts clefable or most switchins to sleep and then proceeding to reset clefable's stats in which it will then have no way to beat Amoonguss or switch out to an answer to the switch and gain back hp by regenerator.
0 SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 374-440 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
This calc is reason enough to have Amoonguss on your team as an answer to defense.
Tl;Dr Offense is very strong but I do not thing there is a way to nerf it without breaking the base formula of the meta -But that choice is up to Hack_guy- There are some checks to offense but they can be beaten.
In Doubles, an all targeting moves only do 75% damage of the original. Why not apply the same to linked moves? It's kinda similar to the scenario when both of your pokes use all targeting move that hits both opposing pokes. What do you think?
It doesn't make sense in this situation because you are not hitting two pokes, just one. It makes sense in doubles when spread moves get a power drop because you are taking the move and using it on two things at once. In all honesty %75 damage is a bit of a buff to damage since you are supposedly splitting the damage 50-50 between two pokes instead of 75-75. I understand your want for a nerf to offense but as I said in my last post I think that offense is the meta.
Quick edit: I personally find an offensively oriented meta in which matches range from 3 to 10 or 15 minutes more enjoyable to play than a stally grind war between two teams whose matches last between 15 and 45 minutes with extremes going beyond an hour.
If I do two things at once, like doing a homework while watching TV, of course I'd take longer or the result won't be as good as I expect, because my concentration is split into two. I think most people are like that.
Nevermind logic. The point is to make the meta balanced. I understand you love offense (I do, and I hate Stall). But if we want more people to play this meta, it's better if we also attract Stall lovers so that they can also enjoy this meta. I think more people should play this meta because this is actually a good concept (I don't remember any other meta in Singles that lets you use two moves at once). The balance is the one that makes this unappealing.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I personally think the metagame is fine right now. If you can't beat a Pokemon normally, that Pokemon still beats you need many cases (e.g. Heatran still walls Smogon burd, Sap Sipper Azumarill still beats Serperior and Breloom), but mainly, metagames are different. Some OMs are bound to be more defensive and some OMs are going to be more offensive. Not every metagame can have a perfect balance of stall and offense, and if this metagame happens to be slightly biased towards offense (although stall is viable) then so be it--that is fine and more offensive players will enjoy it, just like defensive players gravitate towards stallier metagames. And to be honest, players who enjoy Pokemon and OMs will try anything--I personally didn't like STABmons when I tried it the first time because every single bloody team had a Diggersby for like 20 matches in a row, but I am starting to get back into it so I can play in tourneys and challenge matches and stuff because I enjoy trying out new OMs (or at least, ones that are new to me).
Umm... no.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 168-198 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 124-147 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 161-190 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The 180 BP here is from Brave Bird + Aerial Ace (120 + 60). Things that normally counter smogonburd now gets 2HKO'd. Rotom-W needs to be at full health to stop it or it won't counter this thing.
Edit: This is only from a poke with 81 base Attack. Other things with 100+ base Attack/Special Attack will do much worse than this.
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
You could actually run some defensive investment--you don't need too much attack investment to KO Talonflame. Any Rock move will kill it and if you link Hydro Pump+Volt Switch on Rotom-W it will die. And like I said, it is fine if this metagame is more offensive. Some tend to be offensive, sometend to be defensive--if this one is offensive that is fine.
Stall isn't dead at all.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-1622643
The only reason I lost at the end was due to hax and, what do you know, stall. xD
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-1622643
The only reason I lost at the end was due to hax and, what do you know, stall. xD
Disclaimer, that was an old team back in the ambi-nape core days. My new team would destroy that team.
After seeing Mew with Super Fang + Seismic Toss, I changed my mind, since it would destroy almost any Stall in the meta. There is almost no way to promote Stall in this meta because that thing exist, I mean Super Fang + Seismic Toss/Night Shade combo, or just Seismic Toss + Night Shade. Those moves will kill most pokes in two turns no matter how bulky the poke is.
Talonflame can now say RIP to recoil on Brave Bird, and no more need for Acrobatics to make SD to be good:
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
and band is now good for realsies:
BURD (Talonflame) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
Also does selecting move 1 go 1-->2 while selecting move 2 goes 2-->1? Or are they always in the order 1-->2? Cause if 2-->1 is a thing then Talonflame can afford to use Flare Blitz once without being at less health than before 'cause you can do Flare Blitz followed up by a 2-->1 BraveRoost.
edit: oh - if Roost+Burd isn't your style, you can always go for kamikaze on the band set and swap Roost and Flare Blitz around in order to run Steel Wing>Roost to hit dem Diancies.
edit 2: If you're particularly paranoid/scared about Latios, you can basically guarantee that Defog variants get f*cked over with this:
Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
and band is now good for realsies:
BURD (Talonflame) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
Also does selecting move 1 go 1-->2 while selecting move 2 goes 2-->1? Or are they always in the order 1-->2? Cause if 2-->1 is a thing then Talonflame can afford to use Flare Blitz once without being at less health than before 'cause you can do Flare Blitz followed up by a 2-->1 BraveRoost.
edit: oh - if Roost+Burd isn't your style, you can always go for kamikaze on the band set and swap Roost and Flare Blitz around in order to run Steel Wing>Roost to hit dem Diancies.
edit 2: If you're particularly paranoid/scared about Latios, you can basically guarantee that Defog variants get f*cked over with this:
Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
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Nice sets! Talon usually runs acro or aerial ace + brave bird to maximize damage output and act as an extremely strong glass cannon. In regards to your question about move order, It is always 1 -> 2 no matter if you hit 1 or 2
As much as I love this, I think something must be done to promote Stall and Balance. Right now, the only viable playstyle for this meta is Offense, bar Unaware users (there are only like two Unaware users). Because of this, the meta feels kinda stale and boring. I think we should make it more interesting by promoting Stall at least.
*again.
I'm just gonna come back and say what I said before.
If hack guy feels the need to nerf offense or boost stall then he will do it. -It is his meta-M'joe'ra said:
The thing is, I would very much love to promote stall as a viable play style, but this is kinda difficult to do without changing the base idea of the meta itself. Nerfing offensive moves in a link sounds plausible, but the fact that Pokemon are getting hit twice still is enough to wear down walling capabilities. Things like super fang + seismic toss/night shade are also highly detrimental to the stall play style (I'm considering banning this combo, but I'd need input from you guys for this). So all in all, I would like to promote stall, but I'm not too sure how to. I'd like suggestions from you guys on this one
I'd support banning Super Fang + Seismic Toss/Night Shade combo. It's basically the same as Dragon Rage or Sonic Boom in Little Cup, 2HKOing entire metagame. According to my calculations, all pokemon below 600 HP will be killed by this combo in two turns. That means only Chansey/Blissey can survive this combo for more than two turns. Wobbuffet (highest HP after Chansey) for example, has 534 HP with its standard spread. Super Fang + Seismic toss does 267 + 100 = 367. This means Wobb has 167 HP left (200 with Leftovers recovery). In the next turn, Super Fang does 83 and Seismic Toss kills it, because it has below 100 HP. This shows how ridiculos this combo is. And by banning this, I think this is a good step in promoting Stall and Balance teams.
Imo you should specify in the OP or thread title that you are suspecting Super Fang + Seismic Toss now.
Pandora has it, an Ubers version of it, and a hackmons version of it.
Wow... Linked must be famous there. Imo Linked is actually a very good metagame concept. The only thing that makes it unappealing is the balance. Otherwise, its good.
Note that Slayer coded Linked and is the head of Pandora. That's probably the primary influence -though it wouldn't surprise me if Linked is popular on top of that.