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Linoone (QC 3/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Raseri, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    [​IMG]
    Linoone
    [Overview]
    • Bad defences
    • Near impossible to stop once it gets set up
    • Hard to get set up
    • ExtremeSpeed is great priority move, and Linoone overall can beat ghosts, setting it apart from other Belly Drum users
    • Belly Drum is great, especially with Sitrus Berry
    • Fine Example of a late game sweeper

    [SET]
    name: Belly Drum
    move 1: Belly Drum
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Shadow Claw
    move 4: Return / Seed Bomb
    item: Sitrus Berry
    ability: Pickup
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP/ 252 Atk / 40 Def / 44 SDef

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • At +6 OHKOes the majority of the tier
    • 2HKOes everything that it doesn’t OHKO, meaning only steels can safely switch into it, if they predict it right
    • 1048 base attack after belly drum
    • ExtremeSpeed is the preferable move, getting STAB and +2 priority, and OHKOing more or less everything that doesn’t resist it
    • Shadow Claw OHKOes all the ghosts in the tier, and prevents them from walling it
    • Return hits Duosion, Exeggutor, Lickilicky, Vigoroth, Garbodor, Weezing, Amoonguss for a KO, while only missing a KO on Misdreavus and Drifblim.
    • Seed Bomb provides a small amount of backbone against probopass and bastiodon, hitting them for neutral damage.
    • Sitrus Berry allows it to get a larger chance to set up, meaning it can set up on anything that does less than 75% damage, rather than just 50%.
    • Can set up on many of the weaker attackers in NU
    • Can shred apart weather teams if it gets a free turn to set up

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EV Spread Maximises bulk, meaning it can set up more often as more moves don't KO or do enough damage to stop it from setting up. It is normally used most in random circumstances, as Linoone might be worn down by other attacks.
    • Pickup is used because although generally useless, it could be used in a very weird circumstance. Gluttony would do nothing, as sitrus berry activates at 50% anyway
    • salac berry for outspeeding haunter whiel staying adamant
    • Can use a faster spread so it can outspeed all the ghosts in the tier, being Jolly with 40 HP/ 252 Atk/ 216 Spe to outrun Haunter. This spread doesn’t have nearly as much bulk and unfortunately the power loss means it can’t guarantee a 2HKO on Tangela, use it if Haunter weak.
    • More speed to outrun potential taunt users, but you shouldn't be setting up on them in the first place
    • Rock Smash is probably its best other option, allowing it to OHKO Bastiodon and Probopass.
    • Much appreciates Dual Screen support, as it significantly increases the chances of managing to set up. Good users are Psychic-types like Gardevoir and Solrock, stuff like Ampharos work too
    • Slow u-turns from Eelektross are great to help set up
    • Skuntank is great for it, as it can take Toxic Spikes and Pursuit any ghosts wanting to annoy Linoone due to their immunity to ExtremeSpeed.
    • Likes to have teammates that can break any focus sashes/sturdies, such as Golem, who can set up SR and can help beat the rare steel type
    • Often needs to come in after a KO, as it is hard to get in and then proceed to set up.
    • Rapid spin support is useful, as it again makes it easier to set up.
    • Can also use Silk Scarf, which gives ExtremeSpeed a large power boost. It does make it much harder to set up though.
    • Lum Berry means it can set-up on Scalds, Toxics, WoWs and it means it's sweep isn't stopped.

    [Other Options]
    • Choice Band and Switcheroo
    • Has a wide variety of bordering useless moves
    • Subs might be able to go well with flail, and it means other linoone can’t KO it if they win the speed tie/outspeed anyway
    • Gunk Shot OHKOs Tangela at +6


    [Checks and Counters]
    • Anything that can deal over 75%
    • Bastiodon, Probopass, and a bit less Lairon can all be a pain for it, because it can’t get past them if they come in on a ExtremeSpeed/Shadow Claw, or if they come in after something’s been killed. They lose to Rock Smash, but they wall the choice set.
    • Faster taunters, such as Skuntank, who outspeed Adamant Linoone, and can stop Dual Screen support from getting up
    • Gurdurr can tank one hit if it doesn't have return and KO back
    • Bulky steels can take its attack sometimes, however they are weak to rock smash, and normally can’t switch in, only revenge/phaze it out.
    • If it is phazed out then it can’t normally set up Belly Drum again
    • Sturdy users/Focus Sash that aren’t broken are one of the best options to revenge it, especially Kadabra as it has Magic Guard
    • Wormadom-S is the most reliable counter, but its garbage otherwise, and needs to toxic stall it
    • Tangela, although it can't switch in, is one of the best checks, as it can Sleep Powder then recover any HP lost with Giga Drain, which will KO before it wakes up.
    • Ghosts can be a pain for it, especially Haunter/Drifbim as they can outspeed the slower sets and KO.
    • Regirock is a strong choice, as it can wall a Seed Bomb and retaliate, especially if it has low HP.


    hey guys, Barbeller hasn't been on since August I believe, so I'm taking this over. I took his old skeleton which was pretty good, and edited a few things, added a few things. If there is anything else you'd like to see let me know :)
  2. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    oo has too much fluff; just mention rock smash / choice band (and switcheroo) / substitute. each of those moves/options actually have some pretty interesting use on linoone so you can dedicate at least 2-3 sentences to each.

    but rock smash is an oo option? you're making it sound as if they are majorly crippled in the facet of checking linoone because of an oo option. maybe rock smash should be in ac or better -- i would agree with that change -- but that statement should not be worded like that if rock smash is in oo

    just mention gardevoir / ampahros. maybe solrock. rotom-s is not the best dual screens setter.

    i am mostly being picky here so

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  3. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Thanks DTC, I moved Rock Smash to AC and did everything else you recommended :)
  4. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
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    Which ghosts are we using Shadow Claw for outside of Misdreavus? Haunter and Drifblim are faster anyway and Golurk is OHKOed. I honestly feel like we'd be better off sticking Rock Smash there and saying "use Pursuit".
  5. Django

    Django
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    No individual set for Choice Band? A while back it was absolutely everywhere, and while its effectiveness may have dropped the power of CB STAB ExtremeSpeed is still incredible. I honestly think it deserves its own set, but if people disagree then OK. I'll look at this more later
  6. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I have found that Choice Band Linoone is extremely ineffective against most teams unless they are hyper offense teams. And hyper offense teams are quite rare and are sometimes dual screens teams. It's not even that great against offense because most of the time offensive is carrying a pivot or two. A pivot or two that Linoone cannot break through.

    Linoone does indeed have Switcheroo, but that is literally all it can do against more defensive teams. That really isn't enough. Yeah sure you might catch their main wall if you're lucky but that is probably not going to happen. One would be suspicious when someone sends out a Linoone in on their Amoonguss.
  7. Django

    Django
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    I think one of the main niches CB Linoone has is being able to provide an offensive team with a very strong revenge killer (and priority user) which can also sweep a weakened team. It is not meant to break down walls like Belly Drum can, but it can certainly still sweep. It also provides extra insurance against many weather sweepers, being able to bring them down with a bit of hazard support / prior damage.

    Show Hide
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Ludicolo (Neutral): 63% - 75% (193 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Water Absorb Mantine (Neutral): 70% - 83% (193 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Water Absorb Seismitoad (Neutral): 51% - 60% (181 - 214 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Victreebel (Neutral): 67% - 79% (204 - 241 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Sap Sipper Sawsbuck (Neutral): 63% - 75% (193 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Charizard (Neutral): 59% - 69% (177 - 208 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Exeggutor (Neutral): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 25% chance to 2HKO.


    Not to mention it provides a very good option to revenge kill frail threats like Zangoose, Cinccino, and Swellow. I'll state this again, its not meant to break through walls or pivots (even though it can on some occaisions) it's meant to be a revenge killer and late game sweeper.

    Against more defensive teams it can use CB Return, which will not be breaking through full stall teams with max / max Amoonguss, Alomomola and Regirock certainly, but can still do a decent chunk to other common walls like Musharna and Miltank.
  8. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Those calcs really arent impressive. What made CB Linoone good before was the metagame being a lot frailer. With threats like Magmortar and Jynx around the CB set was good, but nowadays I could only see it being useful against weather teams. The metagame just has to many bulky threats that can take advantage of it, I can't see it being successful.
  9. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Those calcs are actually pretty pathetic. Only 75% max against Ludicolo? It's not as if Choice Band Linoone can do much else, so if you're using it as a powerful revenge killer, it better do that one job very damn well. And it doesn't.

    Why not just use Life Orb Absol which is not only much stronger (it does 97% max to that same Ludicolo), but much better overall? It can't go through Zangoose's Quick Attack which is annoying, but at least it can force it into a mind-game.

    Also, Choice Band Return (where do you even fit Return on Choice Linoone?) isn't doing a chunk to Musharna. I'm not sure why you mentioned that it really can't break through Amoonguss but it can do a decent chunk to Musharna when Musharna is bulkier than Amoonguss.
  10. Django

    Django
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    Well if you consider this in actual game situations, then no, the calcs are not pathetic. For Ludicolo to actually be threatening it's going to switch in, set up Rain Dance, and then kill something (at which point you bring in Linoone). When you take into account Stealth Rock, 2 possible turns of damage (as it switches in + as it sets up), as well as Life Orb recoil, the chances that Ludicolo will be above 75% are actually pretty low.

    Life Orb Absol is a decent alternative yes, but you hit the nail on the head yourself. Sucker Punch is so much less reliable, and being worked around by Substitute, Sleep Powder, even random shit like Nature Power can make it that much harder for it to act as an effective check to weather sweepers.

    As for Musharna vs. Amoonguss:

    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) Return vs 240HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 33% - 40% (147 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Linoone (+Atk) Return vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 38% - 45% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    The reason why there is such a big difference between the two is Regenerator. Amoonguss does not give a shit about that kind of damage when it can just switch out to a Normal resist, while Musharna DOES care if its not at 100%. If it's at just 80% and comes in on Return with Stealth Rock up, Linoone has a very realistic chance to 2HKO it. And that sort of situation is definitely not outside the realms of possibility, especially when you consider CB Linoone is meant to be brought out against a weakened team. Return could also easily be used over Shadow Claw (MAYBE Seed Bomb, but probably not) since you barely use that anyway.

    Yes the calcs look shit on paper, but when you consider them in a real game situation they are much more useful.

    I'm just gonna leave what FLCL wrote about it in his RMT from the end of May, as much of it is still relevant today. Yes it's a while ago, but take a look at the calcs in hide tags and actually read what he writes, it certainly still applies.

    Also Raseri I agree the meta is a lot bulkier, but there are still threats like Cinccino, Zangoose, and Swellow running around that cannot just be ignored. I'm not saying CB Linoone is as good as it once was, but I still think it's analysis worthy.
  11. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I have been sticking Choice Band Linoone on a few of my teams that require powerful priority to check dangerous sweepers lately, and honestly, the damage output is definitely not enough. In a real game situation, often Choice Band Linoone does indeed revenge something, but then dies to the next thing because it's simply too weak to OHKO them. It's fantastic at 2HKO'ing offensive Pokemon... but there is nothing it OHKO's with ExtremeSpeed. Literally nothing besides something extremely frail such as Pikachu. That is a problem. It needs Pokemon to be weakened before it can properly revenge something. It is not that hard for sweepers to weaken themselves, but by the time they have done so, they have likely trampled through most of your team already. It may do well (revenge a weakened Pokemon or two) against hyper offense teams, but it is terrible against most other things.

    Regarding Absol, yeah Sucker Punch is not the most reliable thing around, but at least Absol can do other things well besides revenge extremely frail Pokemon once they are weakened a little bit. Choice Band Linoone is really a one Switcheroo pony that does not even perform its niche well. Perhaps it is decent on very select few teams, but is that truly enough to warrant a set on an analysis?
  12. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I would like a mention of Salac Berry in the AC of the Belly Drum set. Mention that it works best when under Screens and that thanks to the berry Linoone doesn't have to worry about going Jolly if it wants to outspeed Haunter.

    As for the case of CB Linoone the calcs are really disappointing looking that an Adamant +1 STAB Extremespeed is not capable of OHKOing a Swellow without previous damage. (Yes I know Swellow will be taking damage from its Status Orb, but I want this to be emphasis considering Swellow's poor 60/60/50 defenses) It has a base 100 Speed tier it could be taking advantage of to outspeed Pokemon like Haunter but it has to use Adamant to prevent being really weak, though Haunter is the only thing it misses out on by running Adamant. Like DTC mentioned it's not even nearly strong enough to do enough damage to more bulkier teams and can't pierce through key bulky Pokemon in many teams such as Musharna, Alomomola, Braviary, Gurdurr, and Musharna.

    With all of the things I said above I would rather have Linoone not have a Choice Band set, but rather a strong mention in Other Options. It should show that Linoone is not strong enough with with Adamant Choice Band to break through bulkier teams, but that it's good enough to be a great cleaner on offensive teams that force many switches and is supported by Spikes.

    With that (your analysis took my first time, razzles)

    [QC]2/3[/QC]
  13. Annoyer

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    One thing you guys forgot about was how even though it's pretty weak with CB, it can still cripple those walls with Choice Band Switcheroo. Overall, I agree with it being OO mainly because Absol can do the job better while still being able to break through walls (Sucker Punch isn't that unreliable when you're trying to hit threats such as Cincinno or Ludicolo) and the reasons ebeast, DTC, and Raseri listed above.

    Also mention that a faster EV spread allows it to Belly Drum before Taunt users such as Skuntank.

    This looks good
    [QC]3/3[/QC]
  14. Raseri

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    yeah i wont be able to get to this for a long time, if someone else wants it go ahead, its not going through QC again.
  15. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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