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Little Cup Initial Banlist Discussion

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Heysup, Oct 27, 2010.

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  1. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Ladies and gentlemen, the time has come to start discussing Little Cup's initial Banlist for Generation 5. Last Gen, the Ubers list was home to these Pokemon:

    • Scyther
    • Sneasel
    • Yanma
    • Tangela
    • Meditite
    • Misdreavus
    • Murkrow
    • Deep Sea Tooth
    • Berry Juice
    These bans were decided mostly by the Little Cup Forum community which later became the Smogon Little Cup community. Pay extra attention to these Pokemon/Items when you are thinking about which Pokemon are broken.

    This generation we have decided to go with official Smogon policy and create a banlist before an "official" metagame is started.

    After this thread has been active for a while we will vote on which Banlist we will use.

    IMPORTANT: When discussing potential Ubers and suggesting Banlists or Pokemon that should be banned please be aware that if it seems as if you have weak evidence and your points are very poorly thought out, then you will be infracted.

    Discuss away. If you are posting a proposed list, please post it in this format:

    Code:
    Pokemon:
    
    Rotom
    Combee (M)
    
    Items:
    
    Berry Juice
    


    VADER EDIT: DON'T SAY "POKEMON X SHOULD BE TESTED I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S BROKEN."
    This thread is for Pokemon who are so broken that they DO NOT warrant a test.

    You will be Warned if you make a post in this vein.
  2. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    My suggested list is as such after much consideration:

    Code:
    Pokemon:
    
    Scyther
    Sneasel
    Yanma
    Tangela
    
    Items:
    
    Berry Juice
    
    I believe Misdreavus, Murkrow, Meditite, Speed Boost Carvanha, and possibly Komatana should be considered for tests very quickly but are not undoubtedly broken.

    Reasoning:

    Scyther - Scyther barely requires an explanation. It has insane Attack, the ability to boost that Attack, excellent coverage, powerful moves, Technician Quick Attack, and Defenses higher than that of LC's bulkiest Pokemon. Additionally, it can hit 33 Spe with a Choice Scarf set, outpacing almost every common Pokemon after +2 Speed (such as 16 Spe weather Pokemon). U-turn hits too hard to be able to freely spam. Stealth Rock maims it, but it's actually not too difficult to prevent in LC.

    Sneasel - If Scyther is Arceus, Sneasel is...also Arceus. The main differences between the two are that Sneasel is frailer and weaker, but it's faster. It also gets STAB Ice Shard meaning that it can fair well against Pokemon Scyther generally has trouble against. It also doesn't take 50% from Stealth Rock. After a Swords Dance, almost nothing can stand up to Sneasel.

    Yanma - Yanma is more ridiculous than people thing. Speed Boost in a frail and fast metagame is absurdly good, especially when you're packing Air Slash flinches and 30 Speed after a single tick. This isn't to mention the fact that it hits 20 Speed and can use an accurate Hypnosis via Compoundeyes, allowing it to sleep its would-be counters and plow through them.

    Tangela - You just see Tangela as a "hard-hitting" Sunny Day abuser at first...but if you look further it's more than that. It's defenses are nearly unheard of in Little Cup, it gets tickled from most priority attacks and can 1-2HKO almost the entire metagame with SolarBeam off of its 20 SpA.

    Berry Juice - Man honestly fuck this thing. Here is what happens with Berry Juice in the metagame. We get a metagame with literally one viable strategy. Especially as the more "broken" Pokemon get banned, the more the metagame will just laugh and focus on Reflect, Light Screen, and stat-up. This item breaks literally every Pokemon with decent defenses and some way to boost your Attack/Special Attack and Speed.

    What do you guys think?
  3. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Agreeing with above list.

    Hoo fucking boy Smugleaf.

    Guess what's coming next? I'm going to discuss Perversity Leaf Storm. Scarf Perversity Leaf Storm, combined with Stealth Rock (which is easy to get up, in Gen 4 at least) rips the majority of Little Cup to shreds in short order. Bar pokemon with an immunity (Shikkija (or whatever the hell the deer is called)) or a 4x resist (grass/steel spiking durian Nattorei pre-evo), there is no stopping this juggernaut. It's decently fast, hitting 17 base speed with a positive nature, and it's not frail, with respectable 45/55/55 defenses. Not to mention, some of ScarfLeaf's counters are killed by using a Substitute set, like the Grass/Steel. And the Bug/Fire.

    Also, Stealth Rock prevents stuff like Scyther and aforementioned Bug/Fire from laughing away Leaf Storms. Because they're 4x sr weak. So they lose 1/2 of their health when they switch in, which kinda sucks for them, y'know?

    So yeah. In my opinion, the thing that may keep him out of a banlist is the fact that Deer pokemon and Herbivore Shimama (I know that one's name) switch in with impunity and set up, and they're powerful threats as well.

    But if everyone runs an Herbivore pokemon to counter Smugleaf, I think my point has been proven.

    Nominating Tsutarja for Suspect, yeah.
  4. Banryu

    Banryu

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    .____. But no pressure, right?

    Well... I honestly can only comment on the things 4th Gen considered Uber (I haven't played anything 5th Gen yet) that I myself have experienced: Misdreavus and Berry Juice.

    Misdreavus didn't strike me as terribly broken in the same way that Scyther and Sneasel clearly are, however, it was definitely a bit overcentralizing in that it was the only Ghost in Little Cup that anyone wanted to use, because-- let's face it-- it was the best Ghost at pretty much everything. With Missy gone, LC players had to pick between basically Duskull and Gastly for the defensive or offensive roles (respectively) that they'd had Missy in. Also, Stunky was showing up less and stuff.

    In the 5th generation, I don't think it should be banned right off the bat on account of the new ghosts, Pururiru in particular, starting to somewhat share the role that Missy used to have. I haven't done too much research on the other Ghosts save Puruiriru and Desumasu, who for the most part seems like a slightly bulkier, less offensive Missy save Mummy, which could prove important.

    ...I'm hoping this is relevant to Misdreavus' banlist status, but I may be digressing too much.

    Berry Juice was the other thing I was around for, and I absolutely hated it. I don't have much to say on this matter because Heysup pretty much explained it perfectly: it takes the LC metagame and breaks it over its knee like a dried up twig. I have absolutely no desire to have Berry Juice back in the LC metagame.

    EDIT @ Darkamber: I have to at least partially disagree with you regarding Perversity Tsutarja. The one big thing that screws him over is priority, which is and always has been way more prevalent in Little Cup than it has in other metagames. Scarf Tsutarja is completely vulnerable to stronger forms of priority since it can't run Sub, and LO Tsutarja can be potentially KO'd by anything faster with supereffective moves if it is not given the chance to set up a Sub. I'll concede that it is probably still a good idea to nominate it for Suspect, but I just want to point out that priority makes it less invincible than you're making it sound.

    That said, I second Perversity Tsutarja's nomination for Suspect.


    And now, I think I'm getting into dangerous territory here, as I can really only theorymon when I haven't played anything 5th Gen for myself. :0
    I'd probably better stay out of further discussion.... fufufufu~
  5. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Before I start, I would like to point out an error in the OP, Murkrow was an Uber last generation too!

    My proposed starting banlist:

    Code:
    Pokemon:
    Scyther
    Sneasel
    Yanma
    Tangela
    
    Items:
    None
    My arguments on each Pokemon:

    Scyther: This Pokemon, from my testing, fulfils the Offensive Characteristic of the Portrait of an Uber. Once it gets up a Swords Dance, it is amazingly easy to sweep entire teams, and that Swords Dance is particularly easy to get too. With Aerial Ace, Brick Break and Quick Attack, it has extremey good coverage, and the only Pokemon that even stands a chance of beating it when it is healthy is Scarf Gastly. If that isn't unhealthy centralisation, I don't know what is. Oh, and throw in bulk rivalling Bronzor's too.

    Sneasel-Very similar to Scyther, if it doesn't satisfy the Offensive characteristic for some reason, it will satisfy the Support Characteristic as Swords Dance Sneasel + Swords Dance Komatana will power through almost every team with sheer raw power, and in this case, it is very clear that Sneasel is supporting Komatana and not the other way around.

    Yanma- After 2 boosts, it outspeeds almost the entire metagame, and those 2 turns are very easy to procure with Hypnosis and its ability to force switces. It does not really fulfill the offensive characteristic, as the rather common Munchlax does beat it, however, almost nothing else can get past it aside from Ice Shard, which is only used commonly by 2 Pokemon in LC: Sneasel and Snover. Sneasel is part of my proposed banlist so I won't talk about it here, and Snover NEEDS a Choice Scarf or the team will likely have a huge Moguryuu weakness. If we manage to finish our preliminary testing fast, maybe we could test Yanma?

    Tangela- Tangela is very well known, and it plays almost identically to how it did in Gen 4. It overcentralizes the metagame, as pretty much the only Pokemon that can take a hit from it under the Sun and KO back is Darumakka. Similar to Scyther, if this isn't unhealthy overcentralisation, I don't know what is.

    Regarding the other Pokemon, I feel that they deserve to be tested. Especially Murkrow, considering the addition of Ishizumai, who with Sturdy and Rock Blast can cause some serious problems.

    However, I will elaborate on Berry Juice and why I feel it at least deserves a test.

    From personal experience, Berry Juice does not break the Gen V metagame. There has been no explosion of dual screens etc., because of Komatana, who can freely use Swords Dance and break screens. The 20 HP heal does not seem that broken from testing, and it adds an extra dimension to leads who possess Sturdy. It does not seem to make everything defensive completely broken, as forcing Berry Juice activation early on is not very centralising due to the vast number of ways to do the job.


    Also, about Tsutarja: It doesn't seem that broken from experience. Shikijika is a good Agility sweeper already, and Herbivore means that it gains a free turn on Scarf Tsutarja, which everybody whom I have met has been spamming in DW LC. Yes, Leaf Storm is good, but taking advantage of the fact that it hits 24 Speed with a Scarf should be taken advantage of by using Jolly/Timid Natures on most 16 Speed Scarfers like Mankey and Chinchou.
  6. Articanus

    Articanus

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    Well I would like to start off by saying that no gen V pokemon should be banned at the moment. While we may have an idea of what will probably be uber(Komatana), it does not feel fair to do so while we have so little information on how it works.

    My proposed banlist would be:

    Code:
    Pokemon:
    
    Scyther
    Sneasel
    Yanma
    Tangela
    
    Items:
    
    None
    Scyther - I feel like the point has gotten across, but I guess I will just kick the dead horse. This thing has the bulk of Bronzor, which already spells trouble when it jumps up to 22 speed and 20 Attack or vice versa. With Technician, it turns what would be mediocre sweeping options into amazing ones, allowing it to utilize Aerial Ace, Bug Bite(which is much more potent in LC), and Quick Attack. For coverage you can use Brick Break to hit every single pokemon, and after a Swords Dance(which is easy to get), only Scarfed Ghosts stop you straight up(some resisting Sucker Punchers[Komatana] could work around you, but involves prediction aka luck). It can use it's excellent offensive prowess to U-turn through an opponent's team either with a Scarf or Band set, and can even abuse it's bulk in that manner to pseudo check the majority of the metagame with Prevo-Stone and Roost. Just please, gtfo.

    Sneasel - It falls in a similar boat with Scyther with the ability to destroy the metagame at a moment's notice, but just remove the bulk part. Instead of Technician you get Inner Focus, which makes it hard to even wear down with Fake Outs(which would have helped because of the increased priority). Ice Shard ensures that no scarfer will beat you unless it's specifically designed to take it, those of which are few and far in between. And most slower priority users are hit way too hard by an SDed Ice Shard to be considered adequate checks. Finally, this thing can serve as an all-purpose metagame checker with STAB Pursuit, enabling it to just puncture random holes in the opponent's team with them unable to do anything about it.

    Yanma - How I hate thee. It isn't bad enough that your oddly bulky and have can have 20 speed, but it goes up by ten each turn? It also has a good Sp Attack stat and a STAB Air Slash, which only leads to a multitude of haxy endings. It can even abuse the 20 speed and fire off Compoundeye boosted-hypnosis to take out counters for the usual set. In such a speed-infested metagame, this guy gives everything the middle finger.

    Tangela holy shit sun abuser! Reaches a ridiculous speed stat when sun is out, insane physical defense makes it all but immune to priority, and with the new powered growth is better than ever.
    40 Atk vs 19 Def & 33 HP (120 Base Power): 27 - 33 (81.82% - 100.00%)
    yeah and that's max sp. def munchlax. That's not even with any boosting item. How about no...

    Berry Juice has not proven to be broken by my standards, but maybe my standards are just higher than everyone else's. Sure this slows down the metagame, but I do not think it makes everything as Reflect + Light Screen infested as Heysup suggests. Then again I was not playing LC last time it happened, and maybe the ubers from this generation upset the balance for how truly amazing this thing is. I am just advocating a test, not saying it is not uber.
  7. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    @Smugleaf: We cannot just "ban" something that doesn't exist. Perversity isn't out yet.

    Yes, if the OU policy is to have no banlist then we will also have no banlist.

    We never really had a Berry Juice Gen 5 metagame, I don't know where you're getting your experience from. It was removed quickly by eric's request so that we could get actual testing done on Pokemon Online.

    Please be careful when throwing that term (experience) around.

    I do agree with this initially, but you honestly need a team of Choice Scarfed defensive Fighting-types to not be swept by a +2 Komatana.

    It was banned on PO (along with Yanma and Sneasel) after Scyther was banned. Once it easily gets Sunny Day set up, not much can even dream of outpacing it, nevermind KOing it. Nothing can safely switch in, Munchlax can't KO it and gets slept or 2HKOed by SolarBeam, Bronzor and Snover get KOed by Hidden Power Fire, and most Fire-types get destroyed by SolarBeam after Stealth Rock. Scyther was really the only thing stopping it.

    The Ubers in the test make Berry Juice seem "normal". You need to consider that when we get rid of these three Pokemon at the very least, that now we have a ridiculously large list of Pokemon who cannot be OHKOed and are thus 3HKOed by most attacks. 2HKOes are essentially nonexistent in a Berry Juice metagame. You cannot stop Dual Screens + stat up boosters after they have set up twice. Imagine +4 Komatana, +2 Atk + 2 Spe Zuruggu, +2 Atk +2 Spe Dratini and the like setting up on you as if it was easy.

    If you weren't around for the Berry Juice test, that's what happened and that's why SDS quickly banned it....people simply didn't play with Berry Juice because it was so absurd.
  8. Articanus

    Articanus

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    On the issue of Tangela, I feel the fact that it has to rely on Sun and Solarbeam to be dangerous is bad enough as-is. Not taking the time to look up calculations, I would assume that it would need a Life Orb to be able to dent Munchlax enough to 2HKO it.

    Actually, let me get the calcs.

    20 Atk vs 19 Def & 33 HP (120 Base Power): 15 - 18 (45.45% - 54.55%)

    That's no Life Orb.... well damn. =/

    I'd also like to point out it has Growth, which now gives +2 in both attacking stats when sun is out... and considering it can easily free itself a turn with Sleep powder...

    40 Atk vs 19 Def & 33 HP (120 Base Power): 27 - 33 (81.82% - 100.00%)

    Ewwwwwwwww. OK that has quickly moved to uber in my books. =/

    Berry Juice... I mean you are probably right, but I'd still like to see it tested for at least a short while.
  9. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Regarding experience, I'm referring to the period of "alpha LC", the period right after Gen 5 was released on PO. Unprepared teams still fared very well against BJ teams, and back then there were a lot of gentleman's agreements over banlists.
  10. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I'm aware, but that was not a sufficient metagame to base your opinion of Berry Juice off of, imo. It wasn't very competitive, was more of people just "playing around" with whatever.

    I guess I'm just always going to severely oppose Berry Juice simply because of the test we originally had, I played about 50 matches and lost none of them because of this flawless DS stat up strategy.
  11. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Maybe I'm biased because that Scyther analysis took a very long time to write, but I'd really like to start this metagame with an absolutely clean slate. Yes, I'm aware of the intial results on PO, but because a) I don't think that it lasted for the necessary length of time to have played and formed an educated opinion, by which I mean that I didn't have the opportunity to do so and b) I don't absolutely trust the standard of Pokemon Online, but that's irrelevant. Please allow me to explain my reasoning.

    The core reasons for the insta-banning of Pokemon in the BW OU tier, namely that it wastes time to have to plough through banning each one depending on how the metagame develops and the desire to reach a stable metagame asap, have no bearing whatsoever on the tiering of Little Cup. Or if it does, I don't agree that it should. Little Cup takes surprisingly little time to morph and yet thrives upon its turbulence and being the perfect antidote to the rigidity of the more balanced tiers - this is the way I feel about the tier itself. Maybe it's just because you cannot play stall on it, so more matches are fast-paced, I don't know. Oh, and this isn't a plea for the Ubers to be unbanned permanently - I do believe that there is a point at which a Pokemon is too strong for the game it is played in - but I am determined to give these Pokemon a chance. How many Ubers were there last generation? Seven? And only three or four will be insta-banned? With OU it is a question of sifting through what could potentially be twenty or so separate metagames before balance is reached - that's not the case in Little Cup, and we can afford to give things a chance. We can afford to test things thoroughly. I've always thought that overpowered metagames like Stage 3 Suspect Testing and the first steps of new UU were immensely fun, much more so than the current OU metagame, which was why I voted for no suspects in the Policy Review thread. But this is getting sidetracked a little.

    The point is, we have the potential to thoroughly investigate some very interesting metagames and I'd be sad to see that put aside on what is essentially theorymon. Why not? There aren't any time constraints, and there isn't a massive community - indeed several Pokemon communities - baying for the release of a solid, stable tier. In fact, we have even more time - Little Cup can be established right now if we want it to be. You'll notice that my arguments stem more from academic reasons than experience, but then that's kind of the point. When it comes down to it, I have no idea what this metagame will look like when the dust settles, and I want to observe it in action - without any sort of prior bias, which we have an opportunity to achieve here.

    So, in summary - I'd prefer to let the suspects be removed of their own accord rather than ours, or at least not before a serious and, crucially, official few weeks of playtesting. But whatever happens, I'm looking forward to this Brave New Little Cup - whatever the finished product.
  12. Tancho

    Tancho

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    can you guys please expand the banlist little cup is dear too me and I wan't to see it evolve and develop.
  13. gvmgvm40

    gvmgvm40 formerly Plopper

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    Now I'm probably an idiot for asking this, but what about Pre-Evolution Stone? Or is the boost not high enough at Lv5?
  14. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    The fact that we needed to ban Pokemon in order to have a playable metagame right away does say something, does it not?

    @ Bolded: Are you honestly going to suggest that Pokemon Online is not accurate?

    Sorry if I'm coming off as snarky, but I can't believe people are still making absurdly uneducated claims about Pokemon Online...

    The player base is the same. Everything is the same except for the simulator.

    "It wastes time" is not an accurate portrayal of the reasoning behind starting with a banlist. For reference, please read the various threads in Policy Review. The reasoning, in a nutshell, is that we cannot have a functioning and playable metagame without certain bans. If a metagame is barely playable by most competitive players, then we cannot really have a legitimate test. Time is definitely a big reason for this, and it very well should be. We want a stable metagame as long as possible...we don't want to end up with shit that we haven't banned yet by next Gen simply because we don't start with a playable game.

    Of course, there are people who disagree, which is fine. I'm just saying that the majority of players would not.

    A metagame that lacks enjoyment and skill-based team building, strategy, and other things is not going to be a metagame that I want to play. The UU suspects were not remotely close to being as broken as the LC Suspects are. You're kind of thinking of this whole thing backwards. Little Cup is almost exactly like OU but with less Pokemon. We have Pokemon that are far too good, such as Scyther, Sneasel, Yanma, and Tangela (obviously the latter two are more debatable than the first two) while OU has Arceus, Kyogre, Mewtwo, etc.

    I never played OU at all, but the first few rounds of UU weren't that bad...but the balanced metagames after that were great. Before those 6 Pokemon dropped in and fucked the whole tier up, it was becoming a great metagame. The broken metagames are just "who uses more broken pokemon".

    In summary, it appears to me you're completely missing the point of the banlists. We aren't "unsure" of any of these Pokemon we are posting in our list. We aren't even close. The Pokemon we are unsure of are left out of the banlist and will be tested.

    If you think these bans are based on "essentially" theorymon you are very much mistaken.

    This will be considered in the voting on the banlist. You have provided solid reasoning for your thoughts, I just completely disagree with the premise of what your saying :P.
  15. Nastyjungle

    Nastyjungle fat and sassy
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    I'm also curious- I don't play LC or have that great of an understanding of it, but Pre-evo stone seems like it would be (from an outsider's perspective at least) a pretty game-changing item.
  16. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    It is good, but I haven't found it utterly broken yet. I think it's definitely worth testing.
  17. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
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    I'm not going to suggest an initial banlist yet, but I can state with confidence that Scyther, Sneasel, Yanma, and Berry Juice will be on my suggested list. At the very least.

    Scyther is so ridiculously broken it is a joke. 4x Stealth Rock weak doesn't really matter when you can do the things that Scyther can do. It is the second-fasted Pokemon in the metagame (behind Sneasel), has one of the highest Attack stats in the metagame, and is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the metagame, both physically and specially.

    Sneasel is in a similar boat as Scyther, though it is slightly less obvious. It is the fastest Pokemon in the tier, gets a STAB priority move, and has a high Attack stat. It doesn't get very many powerful STAB moves (Bite is its best Dark-type move) but it's bulky enough to easily get a Swords Dance and OHKO things with Ice Shard and Bite that it doesn't really matter. It's too good for a balanced LC metagame.

    Yanma is super fast, except you don't even have to invest in Speed EVs. It reaches 19 Speed (the important Speed benchmark) without a neutral nature, which allows you to pump EVs into Special Attack and run Modest. Protect assures that you'll outspeed almost every single Pokemon in the metagame, and Yanma's Special Attack is high enough that it is too good to stop, even with the presence of Stealth Rock.

    Berry Juice is somewhat controversial, but I believe that it makes the game imbalanced. It creates a metagame in which only a small number of Pokemon can succeed, and that metagame is not one that I particularly care to play. I'm basically echoing Heysup's sentiments here.

    Other Pokemon that you should be on the lookout for: all the Gen IV Ubers, Wynaut, Komatana, and possibly Lileep. To be quite honest, I don't think that Tsutarja will be all that much of a threat if/when Perversity is released. Choice Scarf is clearly its best set, but I can easily "counter" that with another Choice Scarf Pokemon of my own. I haven't actually played with it/against it yet so I can't say for sure, though. We'll see!

    It's shaping up to be an exciting and fun metagame. I just wish English names would be released!
  18. the voice of reason

    the voice of reason

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    Are we allowed to include dream world abilities in our arguments? Because if so, I've got one regarding Exeggcute...
  19. Loves_Eo

    Loves_Eo

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    Evolution Stone basically works the same as in standard in that all users will get a 1.5x boost for both defenses from it. Essentially this means an Onix will have 37 Def/ 31 SpD with +nature and max ev investment in sandstorm will take:

    252 Jolly Life Orb Scyther +2 Brick Break
    vs. 252/252 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 69.6% - 87%


    While Onix will always OHKO Scyther with Rock Slide after surviving the first hit.

    Jolly Life Orb Scyther
    vs. Relaxed Life Orb Onix Rock Slide : 121.7% - 173.9%


    Now how about Sneasel?

    252 Jolly Life Orb Sneasel +2 Ice Punch
    vs. 252/252 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 87% - 113%


    Ice Punch is the only move on standard SD sneasel which comes close to OHKOing Onix, while if Onix survives he retaliates with a Rock Slide.

    Jolly Life Orb Sneasel
    vs. Relaxed Life Orb Onix Rock Slide : 90.9% - 118.2%


    As you can see Onix does even more damage than Sneasel when you compare the two.

    Another pokemon I see is Yanma, let's test him out, shall we?

    252 Modest Focus Sash Yanma (70bp Ground Special)
    vs. 252/0 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 43.5% - 52.2%


    252 Modest Life Orb Yanma (70bp Ground Special)
    vs. 252/0 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 43.5% - 60.9%


    Hidden Power Ground is Yanma's best way to take out Onix, but unfortunately for him it isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO, while Onix shats on Yanma with Rock Slide.

    0/104 Modest Focus Sash Yanma
    vs. Relaxed Life Orb Onix Rock Slide : 173.9% - 226.1%


    The rest of the banned pokemon in LC may prove a bit of a problem for Onix however. I haven't actually checked yet, but I suspect Tangela and Clamperl will shat on it and potentially Meditite as well. Well, let's check. The calcs for Tangela were done in Sunny Day unless noted otherwise.

    Naive Life Orb Tangela Power Whip
    vs. 252/252 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 104.3% - 121.7%


    While a Rock Slide from Onix only 3HKO's. What about Clamperl you say? Well although it's currently banned from LC, I decided to see how much DeepSeaTooth Clamperl would do to Onix with some of it's SE moves.

    252 Quiet DeepSeaTooth Clamperl (70bp Grass Special)
    vs. 252/0 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 87% - 104.3%


    252 Quiet DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Brine
    vs. 252/0 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 104.3% - 121.7%


    252 Quiet DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Ice Beam
    vs. 252/0 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 43.5% - 60.9%


    So as you can see Clamperl basically shats on Onix with any of his broken DeepSeaTooth moves. Now let's try a Specially Defensive Onix without DeepSeaTooth, eh?

    ...according to Smogon's damage calcs, does the same damage. Well, isn't that just great? Morale of story, Clamperl shats on Onix regardless of what he does. Meditite is slightly, ever so slightly more manageable for Onix.

    252 Jolly Life Orb Meditite Hi Jump Kick
    vs. 252/252 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 87% - 113%


    252 Jolly Choice Scarf Meditite Hi Jump Kick
    vs. 252/252 Relaxed Life Orb Onix +1 : 60.9% - 87%


    Meditite's only attack which does some damage besides brick break is Hi Jump Kick, and if it hits, Onix can potentially be in a world of pain.

    Jolly Choice Scarf Meditite
    vs. Relaxed Life Orb Onix Earthquake : 68.4% - 84.2%


    Assuming for a second here that Onix survives the first hit, he fails to OHKO Meditite with EQ or any other move he has (excluding perhaps the Gen 5 move called Heavy Bomber, i'm not sure how I would even input that in the calc)

    Those are the main heavy hitters I wanted to show in Gen 4 and how the evo stone can turn a pokemon like Onix into a defensive behemoth, which I would say Onix accomplished quite well being able to counter Scyther, Sneasel, Murkrow, (Murkrow's attacks do nothing to Onix while Onix KO's with Rock Slide; much the same as with Scyther) and Yanma. In short, anything that's not 4x effective and coming off a great stat is not going to OHKO Onix.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Okay, so here's my 2 cents.

    Code:
    Pokemon:
    
    Scyther
    Sneasel
    Yanma
    Tangela
    
    Items:
    
    Berry Juice
    I basically echo the sentiments of Heysup as far as the initial bans go.

    Scyther is basically the world's biggest crock of shit. It not only combines unparalleled dual STAB, coverage, and power, but it's also bulkier than Bronzor, one of the most defensively apt Pokemon in the game. It's even got pseudo-STAB Technician Quick Attack for those rare cases where it's not quite fast enough. As Heysup said, "it's Arceus". It excells at doing absolutely everything to the point that there's basically nothing that can compete with it... maybe not even itself.

    Sneasel goes hand in hand with Scyther, except it's slightly weaker but also slightly faster. Incredible dual STAB, great power, and enough Speed to outrun the common Choice Scarf users (21 speed) without any boosts is notable. In addition, that +2 STAB Ice Shard off of Sneasel's awesome Attack is ridiculous. It may not have Scyther's bulk, but it's got the vast majority of its bullshit going for it.

    Yanma is another one of those Pokemon that gets incredibly difficult to deal with if it's allowed to do, well... anything. 65/45/45 defenses aren't bad, and 75 SAtk / 95 Spe is insane, and Speed Boost just makes that doubly insane. The only real option against Yanma is priority, Munchlax, or Bronzor. Of course, Priority gets iffy, as Yanma is 4x resistant to Mach Punch, there are no STAB Bullet Punch users, Aqua Jet is neutral, and it can pack either Protect to deal with Fake Out or Hypnosis to cause major problems for Sucker Punch users. It can even use Roost if it wants, and with its high Speed and Special Attack, it can even choose to forego Speed investment and just drop those EVs into bulk, making it even harder to deal with.

    Those of you who know my LC past know how I feel about Tangela. It may seem like Sunny Day is a mediocre option sometimes, but Tangela is definitely an eye-opener. With its insane Defense stat, awesome Special Attack, and Chlorophyll, it basically needs only one turn of setup from *another* Pokemon, like Exeggcute or Bronzor or any of the other effective Sunny Day setup Pokemon to become obscene. It's impossible to outspeed even *with* a Choice Scarf, and Ice Shard is the only Priority move that's really effective against it. Between Solarbeam, Ancientpower, and Hidden Power Fire, Tangela is more than capable of punishing basically any team, and there are very few realistic checks against it. And then, of course, there's the new Sun-boosted Growth, which makes Sunny Day Tangela even better.

    Finally, my opinion on Berry Juice hasn't changed since I first playtested it. With the average HP of a Little Cup Pokemon being around 20, it basically turns the entire metagame into "ohko or 3hko". This creates an environment where the only real option is to use a setup sweeper that can OHKO opposing stuff... which becomes super easy when you factor in the fact that it's almost guaranteed to be 3HKOed at worst. On top of that, there are plenty of new nasty ways to set up, such as Shell Break, and many of the old ones are still extremely effective (DD Dratini and friends), making an item that turns the metagame into a setup-oriented clusterfuck even worse.

    Now, just for my input on some other stuff, which may or may not be bannable.

    Shell Break is absolutely ridiculous, and its recipients may well be too. The users are at this time:

    Shellder
    Omanyte
    Clamperl
    Ishizumai
    Purotooga

    Each of these Pokemon have their own special traits that make them effective. Shellder got a huge buff on top of Shell Break with the buffs to Icicle Spear (50 BP -> 125 BP) and Rock Blast (80 Acc -> 90 Acc), and it's mighty easy to set up with. Omanyte has a solid typing as well as a great special movepool, SAtk stat, and decent starting defenses. DeepSeaTooth just makes Clamperl insane, and can actually let it invest in its defenses to make it slightly bulkier, since with a +2 boost there's no way it actually "needs" the investment. Ishizumai has Sturdy, which means that if SR isn't up it's guaranteed to get the Shell Break off, and god help you if it manages to get it up AND still have full HP afterwards. Finally, Purotooga has the best Attack stat for it, great dual STAB, and not only does it also have Sturdy, it also has STAB Aqua Jet, which is absurd. It even gets Earthquake, giving it QuakeEdge coverage AND Aqua Jet's priority.
  21. v

    v I'm on your six
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    As much as I'm a proponent of a clean slate, these two are frankly over the top and hinder the development of the metagame. There is no question in my mind that these two are broken. Scyther has basically the best overall stat spread of any Pokemon, (effectively) STAB priority, two strong STABs, and the ability to boost stats. It can BP them too, if you're into that. SR weak sucks, but let's face it, keeping it off the field isn't that hard. If there was Bug immunity, maybe it would be more manageable, but STAB U-Turn is really huge on Scarf sets. STAB Bug Bite is an amazing move, doing effectively 10 extra damage against opponents it does not KO as well as healing that HP back. Aerial Ace hits the Fighting-types that Bug Bite does not.

    Sneasel is faster than Scyther, but a good bit weaker. It also isn't as bulky and has kind of bad STAB moves. On the other hand, its STAB Priority hits Ghosts and is Super-Effective against mons. Scyther's isn't as good. Sneasel also is just generally awful news for Ghosts and Scarfers.

    Maybe other mons are broken. I have no doubt in my mind about that. However, the metagame with them in it is, at the moment, “playable.” Scyther and Sneasel both make the game damn near unplayable. They outpace a huge number of Pokemon even when factoring in Choice Scarf. You need to pack things for the express purpose of beating them, or you won’t be able to. Or at the very least you’re losing a mon, maybe two, maybe six. Scyther and Sneasel are past the normal levels of “strong” in Little Cup. To put it in perspective, Sneasel has the same attack as Carvanha and 23 speed. Scyther has higher attack than Krabby and 22 speed. The power that they’re packing is a world past almost anything else in the metagame. Yeah, there are some outliers, but the speed is what really puts them over the top.


    We can figure the other guys out later. These two are my only pressing concerns.
  22. Empress Mobile

    Empress Mobile

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    74
    As much as I hate starting without a ban list, I don't think it would be all too much of a problem for Gen V LC. Look at the Gen IV banlist. How long would it take to get a list established that long? Not very long, assuming interest in the metagame is retained.

    At the same time, I think we all can with certainty agree that Scyther should be banned and I think nearly everyone would say the same of Sneasel. So I don't see a problem with banning those two and testing everything else, honestly.
  23. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    3,171
    Before anybody tries to pull a smart one with damage calcs on an Onix with pre-evo stone, remember that with the currentlymroe popular ability(Sturdy) it can never be OHKO'd without some passive damage.
  24. DialgaDM!

    DialgaDM!

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    Just a nitpick about the Onix calcs you can not run both prevo stone And life orb same set
    And just as a sidenote scyther with excellent defenses makes great use of prevo stone since its much harder to revenge kill with +1 S/def and no LO recoil
  25. Loves_Eo

    Loves_Eo

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    48
    Yes I realised I had used Life Orb as well as the equivalent of Evo stone on those sets. I would change it but frankly the point was to illustrate the walling power of Onix against 'broken' pokemon who will likely be banned from LC, not how LO Onix against Scyther is basically a guaranteed kill with sturdy. I would agree that evo stone on Scyther makes it much much harder to kill, but without LO, even after a SD, it does pathetic damage to Onix with Brick Break. And god forbid someone replace BB on Scyther with something that doesn't hit Onix SE, cause all of it's other attacks do about 10% after SD + LO.

    Also didn't realise Sturdy protected from any OHKO and not just OHKO moves, thanks for telling me that. I do have a question about how Focus Sash works with Sturdy though?
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