Little Cup Initial Banlist Discussion

[Banryu]

Yes I realised I had used Life Orb as well as the equivalent of Evo stone on those sets. I would change it but frankly the point was to illustrate the walling power of Onix against 'broken' pokemon who will likely be banned from LC, not how LO Onix against Scyther is basically a guaranteed kill with sturdy. I would agree that evo stone on Scyther makes it much much harder to kill, but without LO, even after a SD, it does pathetic damage to Onix with Brick Break. And god forbid someone replace BB on Scyther with something that doesn't hit Onix SE, cause all of it's other attacks do about 10% after SD + LO.

Also didn't realise Sturdy protected from any OHKO and not just OHKO moves, thanks for telling me that. I do have a question about how Focus Sash works with Sturdy though?

I don't really see how it would matter; Sturdy gives you the same thing while freeing up an item to give you an extra advantage in addition to the auto-sash. :0 If you're wondering about using Sturdy and then Sash, I doubt that would work, and it would be redundant anyway, since Sturdy (unless I'm mistaken) is reusable, provided you can fully recover the Pokemon's health (Berry Juice being hte easiest option).

In any case, this discussion is starting to shift a bit off-topic... let's keep it to the subject of the LC Banlist. As for the discussion on Scyther, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's just as, if not more broken, than regular Scyther is, and that's probably the case for Sneasel and others. I don't think it needs to be argued that Scyther is broken and should immediately be put on the banlist at start.

 

[Loves_Eo]

I don't really see how it would matter; Sturdy gives you the same thing while freeing up an item to give you an extra advantage in addition to the auto-sash. :0 If you're wondering about using Sturdy and then Sash, I doubt that would work, and it would be redundant anyway, since Sturdy (unless I'm mistaken) is reusable, provided you can fully recover the Pokemon's health (Berry Juice being hte easiest option).

In any case, this discussion is starting to shift a bit off-topic... let's keep it to the subject of the LC Banlist. As for the discussion on Scyther, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's just as, if not more broken, than regular Scyther is, and that's probably the case for Sneasel and others. I don't think it needs to be argued that Scyther is broken and should immediately be put on the banlist at start.

My apologies, I realise that was off topic. Just wanted to ask what the mechanics would be, but your also right that it would be redundant etc etc.

I think either Clamperl needs to go, or Shell Break/DeepSeaScale/Tooth on Clamperl needs to go, cause let's face it, if Clamperl with Tooth wasn't broken already, Shell Break would make it so, and even Clamperl with Shell Break + Scale or LO is pretty broken with passable defenses and the ability to hit grass types SE with Ice Beam.

 

[v]

Direct questions regarding mechanics either to the research thread or the simple questions thread. Any further questions regarding mechanics will be warned. This thread is for discussing the Pokemon themselves and assumes that you know what the mechanics are. Thanks.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

@nighthawk: I do not believe DeepSeaTooth on CLamperl deserves an initial ban, and here'swhy:

Even after a Shell reak, Clamperl sits at 26 speed, and more importantly, has NO priority. This makes it easy pickings for Gunk, who is totally immune to one of its move, and can kill it off with priority due to its lowered defenses. Gunk is ALREADY very common, and you're going to need him for Speed Boost Carvanha(according to Serebii, he's available, and the UT thread doesn't seem to have been updated properly...) anyway, so it isn't really overcentralizing.

 

[Heysup]

26 Speed is not that fast and being with lowered defenses without priority simply spells "revenge kill"

 

[Elevator Music]

I suppose I agree with this initial banlist:

Pokemon:
 
Scyther
Sneasel
Yanma
Tangela
 
Items:
 
Berry Juice

However one Pokemon that hasn't gotten ANY discussion so far but should be discussed is Zuruggu. Its an insane sweeper because it can easily pull off a DD or two and has fantastic coverage in just two moves (which both have STAB). Overconfidence just allows it to get even more powerful after every kill. I've been running the following set on one of my teams...

Zuruggu @ Evolution Stone
Overconfidence | Jolly
116 HP / 76 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Crunch
- Drain Punch (/Ice Punch)

... and it's insane. I didn't invest much in Attack because of Overconfidence, while the bulk allows me to easily get off a Dragon Dance and the speed means I won't be revenge killed easily. Evo Stone helps add to this already impressive bulk and makes it almost impossible to OHKO. I've found Drain Punch to be the best third attack because it keeps you out of revenge kill range and it means you don't have to use High Jump Kick every time you need to use a Fighting attack. Ice Punch really isn't necessary but it hits pokemon like Baruchai and Gligar hard (in Baruchai's case HJK is stronger but they commonly run Protect, and firing off HJK randomly generally isnt a sound strategy).

There are very few checks to this, and most of them are just faster Scarfed Fighting-types or Croagunk/Dokkora. Given how easy it is to get more than one Dragon Dance off, and how easy it is to keep a high HP with Drain Punch, these checks get even shakier.

I don't necessarily think Zuruggu needs to be banned right away, but it is definitely worth "testing".

 

[Banryu]

@nighthawk: I do not believe DeepSeaTooth on CLamperl deserves an initial ban, and here'swhy:

Even after a Shell reak, Clamperl sits at 26 speed, and more importantly, has NO priority. This makes it easy pickings for Gunk, who is totally immune to one of its move, and can kill it off with priority due to its lowered defenses. Gunk is ALREADY very common, and you're going to need him for Speed Boost Carvanha(according to Serebii, he's available, and the UT thread doesn't seem to have been updated properly...) anyway, so it isn't really overcentralizing.

However, with Evolution Stone / Deepseascale (not exactly sure what the difference is here), or even Tooth with heavily-defensive EVs, doesn't it become significantly more difficult to revenge-kill? ...I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm seriously asking, because I don't know. :0

As for Zuruggu... is it maybe possible that the Evolution Stone itself should be considered for suspect testing in LC? EM, have you done any testing to see the difference between the stone and something like LO/Oran, and if so, does it make a significant difference in his survivability?

It might certainly be the case that the problem is with the Pokemon and not the item, but I just don't want us to overlook the possibility that the inverse is true.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Deepseascale doubles SpD, Provostone boosts both by 50%, iirc.

I agree that with Shell Break and Stone, Clamperl doesn't have much standing in its way to killing everything in the game, bar fast scarfers with super effective moves, like Elekid.

That Zuruggu looks deadly. How much do Croagunk and Dokkara do with super-effective priority [plus Fake Out]?

 

[Brammi]

I wpuld support a banning of Pre Evo stone. With the best Attackers of the tier being banned from the outset there is little standing in the way off stall. The tier will be amazingly Stall dominated as hazards are incredibly easy to get and keep seeing as the Ghosts such as the new Water one and Duskull would be hard to take town anyway. Sure the lack of recovery is a bit if a draw back but when you look at the fact that they are able to pack moves such as recover and pain split you realise this isn't an issue for them. Any Item that brings about a, sweepers that are impossible to revenge kill or Defensive juggernauts that can heal themselves and you really have a problem on your hands. Even if outright banning it is rejected it needs to be tested as the LC metagame can easily become very stagnant and boring with only two playstyles ever being viable, stall and bulky offence.

That is my 2c worth. Make of it what you will.

 

[Banryu]

I wpuld support a banning of Pre Evo stone. With the best Attackers of the tier being banned from the outset there is little standing in the way off stall. The tier will be amazingly Stall dominated as hazards are incredibly easy to get and keep seeing as the Ghosts such as the new Water one and Duskull would be hard to take town anyway. Sure the lack of recovery is a bit if a draw back but when you look at the fact that they are able to pack moves such as recover and pain split you realise this isn't an issue for them. Any Item that brings about a, sweepers that are impossible to revenge kill or Defensive juggernauts that can heal themselves and you really have a problem on your hands. Even if outright banning it is rejected it needs to be tested as the LC metagame can easily become very stagnant and boring with only two playstyles ever being viable, stall and bulky offence.

That is my 2c worth. Make of it what you will.

Careful... I never said I wanted to ban Prevo Stone, I just suggested that we treat it as a suspect. :0 It's not the same thing. I don't think Prevo Stone is potentially broken for too many reasons... as far as walls like Bronzor and Munchlax go, it's about the same as Oran Berry, IMO. Increasing one's Defenses seems about equivalent in value to having an automatic ~50% recovery, to me anyway. I think the Stone is at its most dangerous on bulky setup sweepers like Zuruggu, Komatana, and NP Missy. I think it's a possibility that such an item on those guys runs the risk of breaking Pokemon that might not be broken in the 5th Gen LC metagame, but we can't really say for sure until we give it sufficient testing. :0

EDIT: Agreed.

 

[Brammi]

It definantly needs a test.

 

[iss]

Most people might laugh at this post, but I see it as a way to move Gen V LC forward quickly and efficently:

Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel
Tangela
Yanma
Meditite
Murkrow
Zuruggu
Komatana
Dokkora
Clamperl
Omanyte
Shellder
Purotooga

Rotom: Unban on technical reasons
Combee (M): Unban on technical reasons

Items:

Berry Juice
Deepseatooth (if Clamperl is not banned)
Evolution Stone

Scyther, Sneasel: These are so amazingly broken I don't see any reason not to ban them. Scyther can run Swords Dance or a Choice item to be almost impossible to counter. Sneasel is the same way, trading off stronger STABs for a more powerful priority. Few would disagree with banning these, and I strongly support bans on these Pokemon. They were banned early on PO, so we haven't really tested these but their base stats are enough to ban them.

Tangela: With infinite sun from Vulpix as well as a sleep move and amazing bulk, there's almost no way you are stopping Tangela. It hasn't changed one bit since Gen IV, and while I wasn't around in the Tangela era I have no doubt that it is broken enough for it to be banned immediately.

Meditite: With the new boosts to HJK and Drain Punch, good luck countering Meditite. Almost nothing can handle a move from Meditite unless you quad resist it (in which case you are gonna die to Ice Punch) or you are a Ghost-type (which can be taken out with Stunky or Komatana). Meditite is almost uncounterable.

Yanma: With two amazing abilities in Speed Boost and Tinted Lens along with great STABs in Bug Buzz and Air Slash, it can seriously cause a lot of damage. A Choice set could use U-turn to scout as well, and 20 natural speed makes it way too broken...

Murkrow: With Brave Bird and Sucker Punch as well as very good speed, there is no real counter to Murkrow. Combine that with very good Special Attack and access to Heat Wave, and Murkrow is just overwhelming. Mischievous Heart can also be used for a priority Substitute and Roost.

Zuruggu: Zuruggu is incredibly bulky and with access to Dragon Dance, Amnesia, and Bulk Up is almost impossible to wall. 130 BP HJK is also overwhelming, and when you take into account 75 BP Drain Punch and a STAB Crunch, it's not a free switch-in for Ghosts and Psychics either. Overall, I feel Zuruggu is incredibly broken.

Komatana: A great typing, Swords Dance, and access to one of the most powerful priority moves in the game? Yes please. Komatana is almost impossible to wall, and Dark/Fighting has almost perfect coverage. It also has access to Rock Polish in case you try to use Scarfers to revenge it. It can also kill Ghosts with Pursuit and Sucker Punch. It is almost impossible to find a counter to a +2 Komatana.

Dokkora: While Ghosts might wall it fairly soundly, they can be removed by Komatana or Stunky. Once they are out of the way, Dokkora easily sweeps with Mach Punch and a Rock move. A Guts Mach Punch is almost impossible to wall unless you are being really defensive. Late-game, Dokkora has almost no counters.

Omanyte, Shellder, Purotooga: Shell Break (or Shell Smash) makes these absolutely broken. There are almost no counters after a Shell Break, as the only way you might be possible taking them down is through priority (and White Herb / Evolution Stone can be run to stop that). One move can really change the whole game with these Pokemon, and there's no way to stop it.

Rotom, Combee (M): I'm going to unban Rotom as now there's a huge difference between Rotom and Rotom-A: typing. I feel this is enough to be a substitute for evolution. Combee (M) is just silly, so I have no issues with it being unbanned.

Berry Juice: Berry Juice just prevents any 2HKOs from happening, and basically breaks a lot of defensive Pokemon. Set-up sweepers-especially those with Sturdy- can basically get 2 boosts while still being at max health (if they get a boost on the switch). I feel Berry Juice is extremely broken, and should be banned immediately.

DeepSeaTooth: Just a extension if Clamperl doesn't get banned. DeepSeaTooth makes it ridiculously good.

Evolution Stone: This makes defensive Pokemon with reliable recovery almost unbeatable without multiple crits, especially those who can set up while recovering off damage (see: Zuruggu, Lileep). Lileep was very annoying and difficult to beat without Evolution Stone, but with it it is almost unbeatable.

I'd just like a last word here. I really want Gen V LC not to be like Gen IV OU, where suspect tests were done almost non-stop. What do we want? We want a stable metagame that is fun to play. Put it this way: if you don't want a man to be upset with politics, don't give him two sides to an argument. Give him one. Better yet, give him none. Do we really want to overburden ourselves with suspect tests? I certainly don't, and I hope you'll come to agree with me too.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Rotom does not evolve. Can a Pokémon who evolves change back into its original form? Ever? No. Rotom can. Doesn't matter if you change type, doesn't matter if you change stats.

"Rotom is evolving!" Show me that in-game, and I will change my mind.

 

[Crux]

Murkrow: With Brave Bird and Sucker Punch as well as very good speed, there is no real counter to Murkrow. Combine that with very good Special Attack and access to Heat Wave, and Murkrow is just overwhelming. Mischievous Heart can also be used for a priority Substitute and Roost.

Meditite: With the new boosts to HJK and Drain Punch, good luck countering Meditite. Almost nothing can handle a move from Meditite unless you quad resist it (in which case you are gonna die to Ice Punch) or you are a Ghost-type (which can be taken out with Stunky or Komatana). Meditite is almost uncounterable.

Zuruggu: Zuruggu is incredibly bulky and with access to Dragon Dance, Amnesia, and Bulk Up is almost impossible to wall. 130 BP HJK is also overwhelming, and when you take into account 75 BP Drain Punch and a STAB Crunch, it's not a free switch-in for Ghosts and Psychics either. Overall, I feel Zuruggu is incredibly broken.

Komatana: A great typing, Swords Dance, and access to one of the most powerful priority moves in the game? Yes please. Komatana is almost impossible to wall, and Dark/Fighting has almost perfect coverage. It also has access to Rock Polish in case you try to use Scarfers to revenge it. It can also kill Ghosts with Pursuit and Sucker Punch. It is almost impossible to find a counter to a +2 Komatana.

Dokkora: While Ghosts might wall it fairly soundly, they can be removed by Komatana or Stunky. Once they are out of the way, Dokkora easily sweeps with Mach Punch and a Rock move. A Guts Mach Punch is almost impossible to wall unless you are being really defensive. Late-game, Dokkora has almost no counters.

Omanyte, Shellder, Purotooga: Shell Break (or Shell Smash) makes these absolutely broken. There are almost no counters after a Shell Break, as the only way you might be possible taking them down is through priority (and White Herb / Evolution Stone can be run to stop that). One move can really change the whole game with these Pokemon, and there's no way to stop it.

Rotom, Combee (M): I'm going to unban Rotom as now there's a huge difference between Rotom and Rotom-A: typing. I feel this is enough to be a substitute for evolution. Combee (M) is just silly, so I have no issues with it being unbanned.

Berry Juice: Berry Juice just prevents any 2HKOs from happening, and basically breaks a lot of defensive Pokemon. Set-up sweepers-especially those with Sturdy- can basically get 2 boosts while still being at max health (if they get a boost on the switch). I feel Berry Juice is extremely broken, and should be banned immediately.

DeepSeaTooth: Just a extension if Clamperl doesn't get banned. DeepSeaTooth makes it ridiculously good.

Evolution Stone: This makes defensive Pokemon with reliable recovery almost unbeatable without multiple crits, especially those who can set up while recovering off damage (see: Zuruggu, Lileep). Lileep was very annoying and difficult to beat without Evolution Stone, but with it it is almost unbeatable.

I'd just like a last word here. I really want Gen V LC not to be like Gen IV OU, where suspect tests were done almost non-stop. What do we want? We want a stable metagame that is fun to play. Put it this way: if you don't want a man to be upset with politics, don't give him two sides to an argument. Give him one. Better yet, give him none. Do we really want to overburden ourselves with suspect tests? I certainly don't, and I hope you'll come to agree with me too.

From the experience that I have gained from playing Gen V LC, I don't believe that any of these should be auto-banned. Yes, they have the potential to be game breaking, however I don't think that they are necessarily broken as such. I am opposed to their auto-banning, however I would have no qualms in testing them as suspects.

Rotom does not evolve, thus it is not LC legal. It does not matter if it hatches, it needs to satisfy all the criteria, it does not, and is thus not legal. Just Use female Combee...

In summary, IMO none of these warrant an immediate ban and I would prefer to run a suspect testing period.

 

[iss]

@RW and Crux: Rotom now changes typing, stats, and movepool when it changes form. Rotom is one exception to the evolution rule in Little Cup. There is no Pokemon like Rotom. Therefore, I think Rotom should be unbanned from Little Cup.

@Crux: Read the philosophy at the end. We don't want an endless debate and cycle of suspect tests which plagued Gen IV OU.

 

[Crux]

@RW and Crux: Rotom now changes typing, stats, and movepool when it changes form. Rotom is one exception to the evolution rule in Little Cup. There is no Pokemon like Rotom. Therefore, I think Rotom should be unbanned from Little Cup.

@Crux: Read the philosophy at the end. We don't want an endless debate and cycle of suspect tests which plagued Gen IV OU.

Rotom does not evolve, to be legal in LC, it must be able to evolve and be the first in an evolution chain. Rotom does not evolve in any sense of the word.

The Gen IV suspect tests were flawed. In order to test properly a new method would have to be developed. I understand that it will require effort, but it doesnt make auto-banning them the superior solution.

Dracoyoshi summed it up nicely "Are we seriously going to remove the very cornerstone that Little Cup was built upon by Game Freak themselves just to allow one Pokemon in?"

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

@RW and Crux: Rotom now changes typing, stats, and movepool when it changes form. Rotom is one exception to the evolution rule in Little Cup. There is no Pokemon like Rotom. Therefore, I think Rotom should be unbanned from Little Cup.

Rotom does not evolve. Can a Pokémon who evolves change back into its original form? Ever? No. Rotom can. Doesn't matter if you change type, doesn't matter if you change stats, doesn't matter if you change movepool

"Rotom is evolving!" Show me that in-game, and I will change my mind.

Can a Pokémon who evolves change back into its original form?

 

[Brambane]

@iss: If Shell Break is so broken, why not just ban the move over the Pokemon. Shell Break is widely called "broken" on IRC. Shellder, Omanyte and Purotooga don't seem broken without Shell Break from my experience so far. If we want to keep bans at a minimum, banning Shell Break is the obvious choice. The only roadblock would be "it's a move", but how is that a problem? We already banned Dragon Rage and Sonicboom, so its not like its unprecedented.

As far as Pokemon go for banning, I can't see Dokkora or Zuruggu (kinda) being that broken. Dokkora is slow and has massive issues against anything that is faster and resists Mach Punch, most notable being Ghost-types. Burn also chips away at its health along with potential weather and damage from hazards. The toughest thing about facing Dokkora is having something safely switch in, but that could be said about almost any Pokemon in Little Cup. As for Zuruggu, I only feel Zuruggu is broken if it has Evo Stone. Evo Stone Zuruggu is extremely difficult to beat with that phenomenal bulk. Without Evo Stone, I feel its much more manageable. Priority and fast Choice Scarf users wear it down fast, and if it ever suffers from HJK recoil, its losing a massive chunk of its HP. If we don't ban Evo Stone, then Zuruggu should definitely be tested. If Evo Stone is banned, I don't see Zuruggu being much of a problem.

Typing alone is a terrible reason to unban a Pokemon that doesn't even evolve. No where in the game does it say "What? Rotom is evolving!" (unless you name your Pokemon Rotom, but you get the point). It may gain BST and change type, but its not evolving. Evolved Pokemon can't revert to previous forms while Rotom can. Are we seriously going to remove the very cornerstone that Little Cup was built upon by Game Freak themselves just to allow one Pokemon in?

Other than those guys, I agree with everything on iss's list for banning.

 

[iss]

@RW, Draco and Crux: We can change the rules of Little Cup to include formes. Rotom evolves in a sense, changing types, stats, and movepool. Yes, we can remove the very cornerstone that LC was built upon by Game Freak. Did GF invent competitive Pokemon? No. So why must we follow behind them? We can do anything we want. We've got a new generation. Clear away the junk, BURN it. Let's start again.

@Draco: I really don't want to ban moves, as it creates a lot of controversy. Theoretically, we could ban a lot of moves with that logic. Therefore, I'd stick with banning Pokemon.

 

[v]

Just posting to remind everyone that we are NOT discussing potential suspects at this stage, we are discussing an initial banlist. Saying "this guy might be very slightly broken i'm not sure let's test" is not the intention of this thread.

 

[Crux]

iss, by your logic, Giratina becomes LC legal considering it also hatches from an egg in HGSS. So if we unban rotom we unban giratina

 

[iss]

<Jibaku> just saying: giratina from hgss is generated by the same method as wild pkmns/legends

The game disagrees with you Crux.

 

[Darkamber8828]

...IF Rotom is legal, it should be banned. At one of the highest speed tiers, it also gets unresisted coverage (?) in its STABs, and as much SpA as Krabby's attack. 50/50/75 isn't terrible bulk, backed by Ghost-typing and Levitate to get switch-ins. A set of Substitute/Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball/Will-o-wisp with Berry Juice could only possibly be broken by Houndour or Lum/tripledark Stunky/Komatana.

Also, if Rotom doesn't get a Pre-evolution Stone boost, it isn't a pre-evo, n'est pas?

 

[iss]

We can do whatever we like about Rotom later. Right now I'm just trying to get it technically unbanned.

 

[Naxte]

We can do whatever we like about Rotom later. Right now I'm just trying to get it technically unbanned.

Well, if we're not worried about whether Rotom will be broken or not for now, what about Phione? Even if it were to be allowed I'm not sure I could see it staying long, but nonetheless, if we're going to make an exception for Rotom here, we should do likewise for Phione--they're pretty much two sides of the same coin (things that hatch from eggs that have pseudo-evolutions that can be considered to be actual evolutions under the logic of developer's intent or whatever).