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Little Cup "Round Zero" Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by v, Feb 7, 2010.

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  1. v

    v I'm on your six
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    Hello, and welcome to the first Little Cup Suspect test. The Suspects have been properly nominated by the community, and here’s where you can discuss them, argue about them, and try to convince one another about the “Uberness” of a given Suspect. When this discussion is closed, then paragraph submissions regarding the suspects will be accepted. From these, a vote will be tallied and Suspects may or may not be banned. This thread is an officially-sponsored discussion of the Suspects, so please keep your posts’ intelligence level respectable and think before you post. Don’t just rehash your original post if you’re responding to a rebuttal – refute it or don’t bother posting. If you don’t have something to say, then don’t. The Suspects are:

    Gligar:
    Type: Ground/Flying
    Abilities: Hyper Cutter/Sand Veil
    65 / 75 / 105 / 35 / 65 / 85
    Notable Moves:
    Aqua Tail
    Earthquake
    Night Slash
    Quick Attack
    Rock Polish
    Rock Slide
    Roost
    Stealth Rock
    Stone Edge
    Swords Dance
    Taunt
    U-turn

    Misdreavus:
    Ghost
    Ability: Levitate
    60 / 60 / 60 / 85 / 85 / 85
    Notable Moves:
    Calm Mind
    Charge Beam
    Hidden Power
    Nasty Plot
    Shadow Ball
    Shadow Sneak
    Substitute
    Thunderbolt
    Will-O-Wisp

    While discussing/debating/making a case, please keep these in mind:


    This discussion will be closed on February 14, 2010, so please make your points in a timely fashion.
  2. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Alright, I guess I'll start this off.

    I don't really feel the need to argue Misdreavus's brokeness, as not many oppose it. So I'll start on Gligar.

    Gligar's strength undoubtedly comes from the fact that he can run at least 4 or 5 very good / dangerous sets. In many cases, this would be absolutely impossible to prepare for, since most sets have different counters.

    The reason Gligar is not broken, in my opinion, is that Gligar's counters have sufficient overlap so that you can easily check every set with just 1-2 Pokemon who additionally check other things as well. For example, every Gligar set has trouble with STAB Ice Shard Pokemon, such as Snover and Swinub. Every Gligar set also has trouble with Phanpy. Paras acts as an excellent counter to every Gligar set minus the rare Aerial Ace variants and SD + Stone Edge can KO it as well, otherwise it survives every attack thrown at it (Adamant Max Atk Stone Edge does not OHKO Paras). There are others as well, such as Hippopotas, which covers every set. The list goes on, but you get the point I'm sure.

    The only thing that is an exception to this, is the (fucking annoying) SS Stall set, particularly the one that Articanus uses. This set isn't broken either because it definitely has a chance lose to the Pokemon listed above, however it has a chance of completely destroying any Pokemon as well. However, I would love to ban this set because it's fucking annoying, but unfortunately that is not a characteristic of Uber. It probably should be....
  3. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    I'm going to have to agree with HYU in saying that while Gligar is incredibly versatile, it is not like each set has completely different counters.

    I know this probably won't fly as a valid argument, but I've said it before and things obviously haven't changed [enough] so I'll say it again. Gligar would probably be more "broken" if we had more people playing LC, because its versatility could be used much more. At the moment, however, it is completely manageable because you're playing like 2-3 people on the ladder or in tournaments tops, and you can prepare for only a few variants of Gligar. I'm not advocating gaming the ladder by constantly adapting your team to what your opponent is running (because I really fucking hate that), I'm just pointing out that people make... minor... adjustments to their teams because they don't need to prepare for every LC threat (in this case every variant of Gligar).

    I will probably post here again sometime in the future if I need to.
  4. Maris

    Maris

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    First off misdrevus(henceforth known as Missy) Is broken as her only counter stunky isnt a real good counter because missy can run HP ground to 2KO stunky. so missy can Sub HP ground and play a mindgame to beat stunky(though that means munchlax/tailow beats missy but thats not the point the point is that stunky isnt a good counter EXCEPt scarf stunky is a amazing counter to this missy or any missy).
    the ability to "counter its counters" makes missy broken under the support characteristic with the famous 'double ghost stratagy using driftloon then to sweep almost all teams unhindered

    now gligar is a pokemon who is NOT broken. Because it has a wide varity of checks and counters (read most of the metagame) that stop it cold. Bronzor is a perfect counter for example that OKOS with HP ice(if gligar isnt bulky) and takes little damage from +2 night slash
  5. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    Misdreavus is undoubtedly broken. It literally has no counters in LC. Munchlax and Stunky are the most common answers to Misdreavus, but they don't always succeed at disposing of Misdreavus; Misdreavus can come out on top. Why don't they work all the time? Well...

    Munchlax's way of defeating Misdreavus is by spamming Pursuit. Once Munchlax is burnt by Misdreavus via Will-O-Wisp, its Pursuit becomes significantly weaker, allowing Misdreavus to potentially beat Munchlax with repeated Hidden Power Fightings. Some Munchlax are even carrying Shadow Ball and Pursuit just because of the fact that Munchlax can't always beat Misdreavus with just Pursuit. Also, a Nasty Plotted Life Orbed Hidden Power Fighting from Misdreavus will basically OHKO Munchlax.

    Stunky is perhaps the only Pokemon that may be called a counter, but it still has issues. Stunky can't always switch into Misdreavus without being remotely threatened. If Misdreavus uses Substitute as Stunky switches in, it will either be burnt by Will-O-Wisp or hit by Hidden Power Ground should Misdreavus carry it. That pretty much means that Stunky will probably lose against Misdreavus or may come out on top with barely any health left. Choice Scarf Stunky is more reliable at killing off Misdreavus than an Oran Berry Stunky, but it still can't switch in safely. If Misdreavus uses Substitute as you switch in Scarf Stunky, it will be hit by Will-O-Wisp/Hidden Power Ground too. Also, the user of Misdreavus can tell if Stunky is Scarfed, simply by checking to see if it moved first. If it used Crunch, just switch Misdreavus out once Stunky breaks its Substitute. If it used Pursuit, stay in and you'd probably be able to come out on top. If not, Stunky should be easily KOed by your switch-in.

    So basically, Misdreavus is pretty centralizing. If people are resorting to Shadow Ball + Pursuit Munchlax and Choice Scarf Stunky to get rid of Misdreavus, that's centralizing to me.

    I don't have anything to say about Gligar right now. I'll post later once I do.
  6. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    Why can't people just make better teams? Misdreavus doesn't come in at +2, she has to set up on an opponent. Instead of just spamming attacks like Scarf EQ or Scarf <fighting> (sound familiar?), why don't people play a little more conservatively, use lures, and just attack Misdreavus instead of allowing it to always set up.

    I'm currently using a team that lacks both Stunky, Munchlax, or even pokemon like Houndour (it actually lacks all Scarfers -- go figure). Misdreavus is certainly annoying to face, but if I just attack it instead of letting put up a Substite or set up a Nasty Plot, it becomes much more manageable. This of course requires that every member of my team has to not be setup bait for Misdreavus, but that can be applied to any pokemon in any metagame (think Salamence/whatever in OU; Stathakis' offensive team which didn't let pokemon set up; etc).

    Also, another problem that many people seem to be forgetting is that Misdreavus only has 19 Speed. Even if it does set up, there is no guarantee it will get off any sort of sweep. Every time it battles a pokemon like LO Staryu, Night Slash Gligar, etc, it's basically a 50% chance that its sweep ends. That's certainly not a good way to check Misdreavus, but it's also not good for the Misdreavus user if the opponent has multiple 19 speeders.


    EDIT- For clarification, I'm not completely opposed to either Gligar or Misdreavus being banned, I just don't think that the reasoning being used is completely correct. Of course, I am the only one who feels this way so I suppose I'll be doing quite a bit of back and forth....
  7. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
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    Yesterday, I was trying to build a team without using Misdreavus, and I gotta admit it was really difficult. Misdreavus has the ability to fulfill so many roles on a team all at once; it's a powerful special attacker, a 19-speeder, and a bulky ghost all in one. And it is immune three types.

    Ghost is a great type in Little Cup since immunities are key (one free switch in might just cost you the game in some cases). However, without Misdreavus in the mix, the type definitely takes a hit. No other Ghost can reach 19 speed unboosted, and certainly no Ghost can take a hit and dish it right back out like Misdreavus can. Duskull can perform the bulky role, and Gastly can perform the attacking role (to an extent; it's Attack stat is terrible to really utilize Sucker Punch), but you sacrifice everything on the other end of the spectrum with both of those. Drifloon can kinda-sorta play the middle ground, but not really.

    I guess what I'm saying is that we won't have a Venusaur situation if Misdreavus does end up being voted Uber (I'm leaning that way myself)--that is, a Ghost won't simply jump up to the top of the usage list to replace Misdreavus. If we lose Misdreavus, the entire metagame will shift drastically, much more drastically than we have seen when other suspects have been banished in other tiers. Those 71.98% of teams that used Misdreavus can't simply make a few tweaks in their team and be ready to go. We're going to have to start from scratch.
  8. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I am advocating the Substitute / WoW Shadow Sneak set as broken. The problem with your argument, is that with a Life Orb, it would be incredibly difficult to find a significant amount of Pokemon who aren't absolutely demolished by a boosted Shadow Ball / HP Fighting. What are you going to lure Missy with that will reliably beat it? Another Misdreavus with a Ghost-resist Berry?

    What happens if it attacks you? I guess you lose? Once again, I, and most people are advocating Sub/WoW Sneak or some sort of variant like that. You often don't have a choice when it comes to letting Misdreavus set up, simply because it will OHKO you right then and there. This is why counters are necessary. Unfortunately, Misdreavus does not have any reliable counters.
    It's only in the second fastest Speed tier. That seems like an argument for the side you are opposing. Consider, as well, that the base 20 Pokemon are actually all beaten 1v1 by Misdreavus, with the exception of a Life Orb Diglett with Shadow Claw. Misdreavus still does 41.2% - 58.8% with Shadow Sneak though -_-.

    I see where you're coming from with the "Misdreavus is manageable" arguments, but I really think your threshold for "Broken" is too high.

    Most OU teams can deal with Darkrai, for example, because of stuff like CB Scizor. Does this mean Darkrai is not uber? This is essentially the same thing. Misdreavus may not beat absolutely every Pokemon in the metagame, but it easily takes out too much of the metagame with no set up. Even if it needed to set up, it is super bulky and has 3 immunities and 2 resists.
  9. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    You could but that's a waste of potential. I'm just throwing shit out there but I've seen a user using an Oran Nasty Plot Croagunk with Dark Pulse. There is Guts Machop. There are probably a lot of pokemon that you could plausibly lure Misdreavus in and then cripple or kill with. I just think people haven't experimented with such things enough (the metagame is pretty stale -- I hadn't touched it in a month or so and I jumped right back in).

    Not quite. Misdreavus isn't the only pokemon in LC that can take a hit and dish one back. I trade kills. Yeah that's not "great", but if I have to choose between losing one pokemon or letting it set up because I switched and then losing the game, I'd rather just lose one poke. I'm sure this sound like Misdreavus is "broken" but you actually play a lot of pokemon the same way -- should you lack counters to them on your team. I understand that Misdreavus lacks "counters" and thus you NEED to play her like this; I just don't see why it's a big deal considering many pokemon in the LC metagame can be like that (this is part of the reason defensive teams are often not worth it; there are too many pokemon to plausibly cover on a team so on most teams you shouldn't bother with countering a majority of pokemon and instead executing your own strategy).

    Also: Did you know Misdreavus misses out on a lot of OHKOes without LO* (I'm sure this sounds a little pretentious but I'm stating it because a lot of people don't know how bulky LC pokemon can actually be)? Should she choose to run LO, however, she compromises a lot of her bulk and staying power, and usually only ends up taking out 1-2 pokemon against a good player.

    "Only" the second fastest speed tier is misleading when you realize that Abra, Aipom, Buneary, Buizel, Ponyta, Staryu, Meowth, Glameow, Poliwag, Taillow, Magby, and Gligar are also in it. And most of those pokemon are damn good too (note that I said most because I personally think most of these pokemon can be put on a proper LC team and hold their weight). And then there are another two tiers of boosted pokemon on top of that (but I know they don't count because a. Scarfers suck and b. +2 pokemon don't come in at +2).

    I don't know if my threshold for whether or not a pokemon should be banned is too high. I just think people haven't tried hard enough to deal with Misdreavus, and they're being lazy and choosing to ban it instead. I might not play LC every second of every day, but I seriously doubt that most users have seriously put in any real creative effort in making Misdreavus less of a threat. I wouldn't say this in any other metagame, but since we only have ~15 players or so I think this "might" be the case.

    I guess there are ways to prove me wrong, and I guess I will admit I'm wrong if someone proves it to me, but not at this very moment.

    *I post calcs if you want but I wanted to get this all out there first.
  10. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    I definately think that Misdrevus deserves a ban. Not only is it ridiculously centralising, it fulfills the Offensive and Support Characteristic to an extent, and is extremely dangerous once given a chance to set up, which isnt even that hard considering 3 immunities. Even counters are crippled by respective moves, like Will O Wisp and Substitute. Add STAB Priority off a not bad attack stat and its quite scary to face Missy. Removing Missy would be healthy for the metagame, as it would allow make it more viable for other ghosts and more Fighting types, stop the usage of the shit that is Stunky.

    Gligar isn't broken IMO. It's sweeper sets are threatening, but not nearly that of the magnitude of Misdreavus. Gligar makes for a good wall, but it can as easily be taken down as Misdreavus. As a support mon, it does well, but nothing that could make it substantially easier to sweep. Basically, I feel Gligar is jack of all trades, master of none (and taken down by the barrel of a specialised gun (or something like that)).
  11. Dracoyoshi8

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    I am a firm believer that Misdreavus should be banned, but not only because it is "uncounterable" (my Turtwig does fine against it, unless it already has a boost). It's because Misdreavus has such a large impact on the metagame, to the point almost every team is either running Misdreavus or Stunky. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I do not wish to play in a metagame where half the teams are running the same Pokemon, a Pokemon which can easily be considered broken, none the less. It's almost mandatory for Pokemon to run a Ghost- or Dark-type move nowadays, such as Zigzagoon running Shadow Ball or Gligar running Night Slash.

    Now, everyone has a different idea of what a desirable metagame is, and what is the most important thing in a desirable metagame. I believe that the most important thing is variety. As far as I can tell, the metagame is fairly stale when it comes to building a team. As Dubulous said, it is very difficult to build a team without using Misdreavus and/or one of it's "sure-fire" counters (even the gimmick that I am, I almost always run Scarf Houndour on my teams, since it is one of the best ways of stopping Misdreavus). To me, that is not a good representation of variety in a metagame. Not only do most teams run Misdreavus, but they almost always run the same kind, Nasty Plot/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting/SS or Sub or WoW. Before HG/SS, Misdreavus could run numerous sets, such as SubSneak, Calm Mind or even Charge Beam. Nowadays, it seems like you are fighting the same exact Misdreavus on every team.

    I believe that banning Misdreavus is the best option of returning variety to the metagame (as well as getting Stunky off the usage charts, since it seems its only purpose is to stop Misdreavus). As far as I can tell, no Ghost will rise to take Misdreavus' place, as none of them have Misdreavus' qualties, most notable being 19 Speed. This will give the metagame a larger chance to become more varied and less centralized around a damn ghost.

    Now, on to Gligar. I believe that Gligar may have been broken a while ago, but now acts as a positive influence on the metagame. Gligar has a large number of sets, many of the quite dangerous. However, Gligar, unlike Misdreavus, is much easier to stop. Snover and Phanpy are both excellence ways of stopping Gligar. Hove you noticed since Snover usage went up that Gligar seemed to become more rare, and that Scarf Gligar seems to be prominent? That's because players, including myself, are finding easier ways to keep Gligar in check and from sweeping. Gligar's versatality may also be seen as a postive influence, adding much variety into the metagame, kinda like Celebi of OU, who can run numerous sets, and one for every kind of team.

    However, there is an exception where I believe Gligar is truly broken, and that is in Sandstorm. Gligar's Sand Veil makes countering Gligar more..."luck based". With Substitute and Roost, Gligar can be hell to take down in Sandstorm. I would personally rather ban Hippotatoe under the Support Charateristic than Gligar (makes both Gligar and Lileep less annoying. Two birds with one stone, but I digress), but he isn't one of the suspects.

    Well, there's my two-cents. Complain, agree, rebut, whatever.
  12. matty

    matty I did stuff along time ago
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    I am in complete agreement with Draco here. Misdreavus is broken and needs to be moved. All the arguments have been laid out well so I'm not going to talk about it.

    Currently, I'm on the fence about Gligar. I've been running the Sub / EQ / Toxic / Roost set with brightpowder and sand veil and the instant that you miss on gligar your fucked. Literally half my games on the ladder end in Gligar sweeps. The only sure fire counter I've run across is bronzor. Not to mention the thing is a defensive beast anyway so taking it down is a pain and its grouped in the second highest speed tier meaning you'll need Ice Shard or Aqua Jet to usually out run it. And then if I know those are coming, its easy to just switch out and bring him in later.

    Now I truly believe that this set is broken, but he may not be. Its been mentioned all the checks that Gligar has and I never see it sweep teams unlike Misdreavus.

    If people haven't seen the sand miss set, then you need to experience it before you vote IMO.
  13. v

    v I'm on your six
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    The discussion is over. Please PM your paragraphs regarding whether you believe that Gligar and Misdreavus are Uber according to the Characteristics of an Uber in the OP of this thread or not to eric the espeon, Seven Deadly Sins and Vader.

    EDIT: Paragraphs will no longer be accepted after 9:00 PM EST on Saturday, February 20. Any sent after that point will be discarded without being read.
  14. v

    v I'm on your six
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    The results are in!

    There were 8 accepted voters for Misdreavus. They were: Black Buddha, Dracoyoshi8, Dubulous, Goldenknight, Heysup, Itsuki, Rolfkip and Sledge.

    8 voted Misdreavus Uber, all of which where under the Offensive Characteristic.
    2 also voted Midreavus Uber under the Support Characteristic.
    4 voted Gligar OU.
    4
    abstained from voting on Gligar.

    Therefore, by unanimous vote Midreavus is banned from Little Cup until further notice. Thank you to everyone who participated!
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