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Little Cup Ubers

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Heysup, Oct 24, 2009.

  1. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    This thread is for discussion on the Little Cup Uber metagame only, not Little Cup OU, and not Standard Ubers.

    The Game
    [​IMG]

    Little Cup Ubers is a unique metagame. It's obscenely fast-paced, even by Little Cup standards. With all of the powerhouses in Little Cup being banned from OU because of sweeping power, what else would you expect?

    Stealth Rock

    In LC Ubers, Stealth Rock is the most important part of the game. With every Pokemon minus Meditite, Tangela, and DST Clamperl weak to Stealth Rock, likely anything dangerous switching in will be sent straight to 75% HP, or even 50% in Scyther and Yanma's case. If you can keep Stealth Rock on the field, chances are you will have an easy time knocking your opponent's Pokemon out quick and fast before they get a chance to set up. For this reason, set up is a little harder than one might think even with the decent defenses of most of the Uber Pokemon (Scyther and Tangela specifically). Scyther can set up Swords Dance with Stealth Rock in play if sent in at the right time, but it is hard to get that chance since even a semi-powerful priority attack will KO it at half HP.

    Rapid Spin
    / Spin Blocking

    This is all good and well, but if you can't keep Stealth Rock on the field you are going to have some trouble. Keeping Stealth Rock on the field is quite difficult because of the lack of a truly defensive Ghost to block Rapid Spin. The best that choices are Misdreavus and Duskull, obviously EVed as defensively as possible.

    Speed

    Another huge factor is that there is no "magic" speed anymore. The fastest speed in LC Uber belongs to Sneasel, who reaches a whopping 23 Speed with max Speed and a Jolly nature. If there was a magic Speed, it would probably be 16, as it reaches 24 Speed after a Choice Scarf boost.


    The Players

    You know about the game now, but what are some of the top players?

    I'll list two examples of Pokemon in various roles.

    Stealth Rock users:

    Phanpy (M) @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Pickup
    EVs: 196 HP/116 Atk/196 Def
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard
    - Head Smash / Counter
    ---
    Phanpy is a great Pokemon in Little Cup Ubers for many reasons. It has very very impressive defense, Stealth Rock and a very useful Ice-typed priority attack. After it sets up Stealth Rock, Phanpy works great as a check to Pokemon like Sneasel (survives a +2 STAB Ice Shard!!), Non-SD Scyther, Gligar, Murkrow, and others.

    Bronzor @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 220 HP/4 Atk/148 Def/12 Spd/4 SAtk/68 SDef
    Sassy nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    ---

    Bronzor has excellent defenses and typing, Stealth Rock, and can set up dual screens! What more could you want from a support Pokemon? Gyro Ball is also a great attack in LC Ubers, because most of the Pokemon are damn fast. Dual Screens are pretty important in LC Ubers as well, it helps Pokemon like Scyther and Sneasel set up with Stealth Rock in play.

    Sweepers:

    Sneasel
    (M) @ Berry Juice / Focus Sash / Life Orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Ice Shard
    - Brick Break
    - Bite
    - Swords Dance
    ---

    What needs to be said about something with 23 unboosted Speed and 19 Atk? Its only "weakness" is its lack of a powerful STAB. However after a Swords Dance, Sneasel is practically unstoppable. It also has decent defenses, allowing it to abuse Berry Juice with screens, or even without. Sneasel's true strength is that it can't really be revenge killed by anything but a Scarfed Pokemon with a super effective priority.

    Scyther (M) @ Berry Juice / Life Orb
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 196 Atk/36 Def/236 Spd/36 SDef
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Aerial Ace
    - Bug Bite
    - Quick Attack / Roost / Brick Break
    ---

    With Scyther's dual STAB attacks, it's monstrous unboosted 20 Attack stat, and a whopping 22 Speed, it's no wonder Scyther is one of the most powerful Pokemon in the metagame. Scyther also has pretty impressive defenses. That's an understatement, it has 70/80/80 defenses, those are the BEST defenses in Little Cup! This gives Scyther and easy time setting up Swords Dance, even if Stealth Rock is in play. Pretty much nothing can get in the way of a STAB 90 base power attack coming off of 40 Attack, and psuedo-stab Quick Attack is there for the Choice Scarfers who try and take the other route at beating Scyther (outpacing it). Scyther excels at everything Sneasel has trouble with, but Sneasel is faster, and has a better priority attack.

    Revenge Killers:

    Scyther (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 196 Atk/36 Def/236 Spd/36 SpD
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Aerial Ace
    - U-turn
    - Pursuit
    - Bug Bite / Quick Attack
    ---

    Scyther is basically the best "everything". It reaches a whopping 33 Speed with a Choice Scarf, outspeeding everything in the entire metagame minus a Scarf Sneasel, who isn't very effective. It even outspeeds Sunny Day Tangela. STAB U-turn is a godsend on a Choice Scarfer, allowing it to lure out it's counters while dealing major damage to whatever switches in. Pursuit traps and KOes every Spin Blocker as well, meaning Scyther can take care of it's own SR problem. Bug Bite is neat as a second STAB, and it can eat the odd pinch Berry, but Quick Attack is definitely a solid choice because of Technician.

    Meditite (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pure Power
    EVs: 196 Atk/76 Def/196 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Brick Break
    - Fake Out
    - Ice Punch
    ---

    Pretty much Croagunk on crack. Fake Out + Bullet Punch will KO most Pokemon as long as Berry Juice is gone, and the best part is that it bypasses all Speed. Brick Break serves two purposes on this set: STAB and breaking screens. Screens are pretty dangerous in Little Cup with Berry Juice in play. Ice Punch is for coverage, specifically on Gligar (who is still dangerous in Ubers) and Scyther.

    Rapid Spinners / Spin Blockers:


    Misdreavus (M) @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 196 HP/36 Atk/196 Def/76 SAtk
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Will-o-wisp
    - Shadow Ball
    - Shadow Sneak
    ---

    Missy is, in my opinion, the best Spin blocker in Little Cup Ubers. Unlike Duskull, Missy can actually KO a huge amount of the Spinners and Pursuiters alike. With excellent defenses, Misdreavus easily adjusts from being a star sweeper in OU to being a star Spin blocker in Ubers!

    Squirtle (M) @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 244 HP/132 Atk/76 Def/12 Spd/4 SDef
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Aqua Jet
    - Brick Break
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Punch
    ---
    "Wtf is Squirtle doing on this list??". I know, it's Squirtle. Once you wrap your head around that, take a closer look. Squirtle has a very very important role in LC Ubers. It can a ton of hits, Rapid Spin, and KO most of the Little Cup sweepers with its great coverage moves (hits Sneasel and Gligar 4x Super Effective, and hits Yanma, Tangela, Scyther, and Murkrow 2x Super effective). Priority is priority.
    ------

    Now that you know a bit about the game....discuss!
  2. sbc

    sbc

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    LC Ubers wouldn't be that viable IMO, at least in the long run. All the pokemon you have listed are owned by Sneasel except Bronzor is OHKO'd by LO max damage +2 Bite if you take any residual damage. Can't see Rapid Spin being at all viable tbh, obviously Scyther is greatly hampered by it, but can you afford to give Tangela, Scyther and Sneasel (the latter two are bitches to revenge if they have +2 attack) a free turn whilst you spin?

    (Also lol at how broken Scyther is, best defences in the game and a ridiculous moveset)
  3. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    It is viable at the moment, I don't see how it isn't. None of the Pokemon I listed are even beaten by Sneasel. As long as it doesn't get a Swords Dance, Scyther KOes it (survives Ice Shard), Bronzor does survive and KOes it.

    And Spin is actually very viable considering Squirtle forces out major threats (especially Sneasel, ironically) and can make use of the switches to spin for Scyther. Also, if Tangela uses Sunny Day while Squirtle uses Rapid Spin, you can just switch Scarf Scyther into the Solarbeam and take basically jack from it and outspeed + KO Tangela.

    You should play it more and you'll see what I mean.
  4. sbc

    sbc

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    Sneasel OHKOs all of them with a SD and OHKOs Misdreavus off the bat. If Sneasel gets a free turn then any team consisting of any six of the pokemon you listed is screwed.

    If you want to use Rapid Spin vs my Sneasel, I'll SD and OHKO you next turn :) You'll most likely want to use Aqua Jet if you're up against Sneasel rather than spin.
  5. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Actually Sneasel, without LO, doesn't OHKO Bronzor or Squirtle. Squirtle also has a fair chance to survive a +2 LO bite. And good luck setting up an LO Sneasel, you probably deserve to sweep if you set that up without getting OHKOed or close to OHKOed.

    Are you going to Swords Dance and OHKO me after this happens?

    13 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (75 Base Power): 24 - 32 (109.09% - 145.45%)

    If Sneasel is so valuable, you're probably going to switch him out. Squirtle forces out Sneasel and can take the chance to spin, there is no two ways about it.
  6. sbc

    sbc

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    You act as if Sneasel can't set up within one turn, which considering it threatens anything weak to Ice/Dark/Fighting off the bat is enough to force a switch to give it a free turn. Unless you're willing to risk losing your Misdreavus or whatever if it chooses to attack straight off.

    OK, you're obviously not reading what I'm posting fully. Since when is Rapid Spin a 75 BP attack? This is irrelevant to the part of the post that you quoted and actually proves my point. You're not going to Rapid Spin when you're up against juggernauts like Sneasel unless you want to give them a free turn.

    I still don't think that a viable long-term ubers metgame can be sustained when you've got the likes of Sneasel, Scyther and Tangela with very few checks and little counteracting balance (akin to normal ubers minus Blissey for instance)
  7. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Dixie all of your arguments go both ways, that's what I'm trying to say. Look:

    Would you risk losing your Sneasel to Will-O-Wisp or HP Fighting to use Swords Dance? It goes both ways.

    Also, Missy can easily take a Bite:

    19 Atk vs 16 Def & 25 HP (60 Base Power): 14 - 20 (56.00% - 80.00%)

    And it still only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO with Life Orb as long as Stealth Rock is off the field:

    19 Atk vs 16 Def & 25 HP (60 Base Power): 20 - 26 (80.00% - 104.00%)

    You really overestimate Sneasel, and underestimate some of the OU Pokemon.

    It's called Brick Break. Your argument can't be "Squirtle won't risk Sneasel (that needs a Life Orb to OHKO in the first place) setting up Swords Dance because Sneasel is so great.", and not realize that if Sneasel is so valuable, why would you keep it in against Squirtle which EASILY beats it 1v1?

    Where is the logic in that?

    It's just a very centralized version of normal Ubers. Kyogre is to Ubers as Scyther is to Little Cup Ubers. And similarly, Foretress is to Ubers and Squirtle is to Little Cup Ubers (though Squirtle is definitely better than Forry).

    Tangela is still easily beaten by Pokemon like Munchlax depending on the move set. And Sneasel, as I have shown, is not that great.
  8. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    From the few games I've played, its not a stable metagame in the least, but no single threat stands out much more than the others and there are quite a few Pokemon that are not great in LC-OU that come into their own and try to keep things balanced (Onix, Squirtle, Bronzor, Chinchy to some extent, ect). Everything is impossibly threatening, so even more than in standard LC "every turn counts".

    Edit: I don't agree with either of you about Sneasel. Its not massively better than the other Ubers, and actually has a few switchins. Its very hard to set up SD without a sash because no one switches from you, the risk of losing a Pokemon is tiny compared to letting something like Sneasel or Scyther get a free SD and Sneasel is pretty fragile. On the other hand, it really is "that great". If you can get it set up, and your opponent's specific counter or two are down, prepare to tear through your opponents team.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Firstly, everything has checks, so it isn't impossible to stop any Pokemon.

    And to be honest, it just sounds like you are describing a "hyper offensive" metagame to me, not an unbalanced one.

    I didn't say Sneasel wasn't great at all. I just said it wasn't as unstoppable as he said it was.

    Anyway, can we move away from the fact that some people don't like the metagame and keep the discussion a little more "about the metagame". This current discussion at hand is really discouraging people from actually discussing the metagame.

    This thread isn't about whether you like the metagame or not.
  10. Banryu

    Banryu

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    I knew about the Little Cup Ubers, but I didn't realize there was actually a metagame for them, I thought they were just banned. Thanks for the intro to it, Heysup.

    Having said that, I went ahead and made a couple of changes that I think improve the movesets of the featured Pokemon. Changes and comments are in green.

    And now I probably sound like a know-it-all... D: Don't hate me, just trying to help... Dx


    The only other problems I see are with the metagame itself; It seems like there are too few banned LC Pokemon for there to be an actual Ubers metagame... sort of like the Ubers metagame as of G/S/C. I'm not saying I don't like it, I'm just questioning whether there are enough usable Pokemon...?
  11. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    OK I see quite a few things wrong with the above post.

    Firstly: Phanpy. Since when is Protect a staple on Phanpy in LC OU? Phanpy needs EQ for STAB, and HS hits both the best ubers Scyther and Sneasel for a OHKO. Counter can be used to try and avoid the recoil and miss chance when dealing with SNeasel and Scyther.

    On Sneasel: It doesnt really matter that much tbh, because if a player keeps his Sneasel hidden until late or midgame, then it wont matter because once you get a SD up, its practically GG. Also with Pursuit you ask yourself: Do you want to get rid of something that is afraid of Sneasel and hence will not cause trouble later or do you want to smack the incoming switchin for a possible OHKO or 2HKO with Ice Shard follow up.

    I guess you could go both ways with Scyther, but if you understand that for Scyther it is vital that spin blockers are removed, you will understand the use of Pursuit, as Scyther could be forced out by something like Sneasel's Ice Shard. Also Bug Bite is better as the only real steel in Little Cup, Bronzor, is hit neutral by both Brick Break and Bug Bite, but Bug Bite hits much harder (135 vs 75 BP)

    I dont mean to bash your post, just saying that some of those changes are actually not that helpful in the longer run
  12. sbc

    sbc

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    I didn't realise you were using a max HP / max def Bold Misdreavus, which is centralisation if you ever needed an example lol. Any standard variant of Misdreavus is OHKOed by Sneasel.

    re: Squirtle. Uh what part of this "Squirtle won't risk Sneasel (that needs a Life Orb to OHKO in the first place) setting up Swords Dance because Sneasel is so great." is not true? And you are losing sight of the argument I was making since it was about Rapid Spin and not Sneasel.

    If Tangela is easily beaten by pokemon like Munchlax then why is it uber? Please explain how Munchlax easily beats a pokemon with Sleep Powder in its arsenal, and what other pokemon easily revenge kill that bastard with 30 speed and 115 base defence.

    Comparing Kyogre to Scyther is not that straight forward as I said before. What pokemon is as effective a counter to Scyther as Blissey is to Kyogre (and others). By which I mean a ridiculous amount of durability and the equivalents to 255 HP and 135 SpD as well as reliable healing.

    At the risk of sounding bitchy here, I at least want to say good job on putting this info together for people unaware of the potential metagame.
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    It has a different "standard" Ubers set than OU. The same way Scizor uses a different spread for Ubers. The same way Blissey has a different spread for Ubers. The same way Metagross has a different spread for Ubers. It's not crazy to centralize around the major threats of the metagame...
    Answer this question: is Sneasel valuable to you compared to the opponent's Squirtle?

    That's why it isn't true in the least. You can't set up without the chance of getting OHKOed by Squirtle. Squirtle can always invest more in defense to always survive a Life Orbed Bite likely as well.

    Squirtle forces Sneasel out. This means Squirtle can take the chance to Spin. That's how it works in OU with Starmie and Pokemon like Infernape. Or in OU Ubers with Pokemon like Foretress (with Payback) versus something like Mewtwo for example. Seems to be relevant to the argument to me.
    It's obviously dependent on its moveset. A Tangela with Sunny Day / HP Fire / Solar Beam / Sleep Powder is walled by Houndour, and a Tangela with Ancient Power over Sleep Powder is walled (to an extent) by Munchlax or even something else that's specially defensive (Mantyke probably even does OK because of its mammoth SpD stat and AP is weaker than Solarbeam against it). There ARE lots of OU checks to Uber Pokemon. That doesn't mean they aren't Uber.

    Parasect, Ludicolo, and Quagsire counter Kyogre, does that mean that Kyogre shouldn't be Uber? That logic is severely flawed.

    Scarf Onix, Scarf Gastly, Scarf (any Pokemon with Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt (etc)). They can all easily counter Scyther, at least to the same extent (or more) Blissey counters Kyogre (Blissey does not do that well).

    Thanks!
  14. Banryu

    Banryu

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    ^ I'm not so sure about that, you might still be mad at me because I called you out for that Hail glitch thing. >_>
  15. Bynine

    Bynine

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    Will there be a Little Cup OU, BL, UU, and NU as well?
  16. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    There is OU right now, and once we solidify what is and is not OU then we may start working further down, though there isn't a definitive answer yet.
  17. Bynine

    Bynine

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    Interesting. I hope that someday there will be a tier where Kricketot and Caterpie can roam free.
  18. the opponent

    the opponent

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    Bug Bite hits for 90% of the damage Brick Break does (270 vs. 300 power) against Sneasel. So unless Brick Break just narrowly OHKOs, which I highly doubt, using Brick Break solely for Sneasel is a bad idea.
  19. sbc

    sbc

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