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Gen 5 Little Cup Viability Rankings - Mark II

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by iss, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude is an official Custom Title Rater
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    Firstly I agree with moving Croagunk to 'High B' rank. It is generally a good check to shell smashers and Mienfoo, Snover and Chinchou which are obviousy quite common in the meta but it also is pretty weak to a lot of common Little Cup Pokémon. Murkrow and Drilbur are both in S and can ohko Croagunk with Earthquake and Brave Bird. Even with Sucker Punch / Shadow Ball a well played Misdreavus can still get past it and while I agree that Knock Off DD Scraggy is much better than Scraggy with Zen Headbutt, Zen Headbutt Scraggy is still too common for Croagunk to be called a Scraggy counter imo.

    And I also agree that Abra should stay in A. It hits the great 19 speed and combined with Focus Sash turns Abra into one of the best revenge killers in the game letting it almost always get a revenge kill with its 20 SpA which is insanely high its also got great coverage with Shadow Ball hitting opposing Abra, Missy and Gastly and Psychic hitting heaps of those Fighiting-types in LC like Croagunk, Timburr, Riolu and Mienfoo super effectively. Hidden Power Fighting hits Snover, Mag, etc. Everyone always complains about Abras place in the usage stats and I kinda agree, but any team I make without Murkrow or Porygon I end up very weak to this guy.

    Also Staryu is a great spinner. Eviolite and Recover actually give it some great longetitvity and let it spin fairly easily through out the match. Also Shouting I don't know what your talking about but Staryu can certainly switch into Mienfoo unless its Scarf or Life Orb which nothing should really switch into unless its a dedicated wall or Ghost-type predicting an HJK. While Drilbur, Hippo, Bronzor, Dwebble and Mienfoo don't seem like much they are common enough to let Staryu get a free spin or recover as they switch out. Staryu can also force out any unboosted shell smashers
  2. kingmidas

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    Adding on to what Spd said, the thing that makes staryu the best spinner is, it is not as predictable as the other ones. It can adorn life orb over eviolite to 2HKO missy d on the predicted switch or just sweep late game with its coverage. It can even help rain teams, while just adding help to itself. So overall you can use it for multiple purposes and that is why it is the best spinner and one of the top little cup mons, which makes it A rank.
  3. Goddess Briyella

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    I don't think Meowth belongs where it is currently. Its ability to use STAB Fake Out + Normal Gem for a huge amount of free damage, followed by the option to steal an opposing mon's Eviolite or other item with Covet, makes it incredible. It hits the awesome 19 Speed tier, and also has Bite to hit Missy hard. All of this is made even more powerful by way of the ability Technician. To top it off, it can use its incredible speed in tandem with U-turn to scout and also be able to rack up more free damage with STAB Technician Fake Out later in the game. Meowth is not without flaws, as its ability to take hits is rather lacking, and it certainly cannot stand up to Fighting types. Early game it can really help soften up the opponent's team and mid/late game it can afford to be more offensive. But if used carefully and played to its strengths, Meowth can be a very potent (and annoying) force. For these reasons I would like to nominate Meowth for at least C+ or B- rank.
  4. kingmidas

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    Meowth is perfect right where it is. Sure meowth has a ton of good things going for it, but as a fragile normal, it is majorly disadvantaged due to the ample amount fighting types. Also it has no priority except fake out and its bite cannot OHKO missy d which is a common switch in on the mon and due to that it ends up being killed by hidden power fighting.
    I really think Shroomish should be moves up to B+ and not go down to C like Hawkstar said on his changes. Shroomish is the best grass type when it comes to stopping sand, it has the massive bulk, recovery in synthesis which still does well in bad weather like sand. Also it has the best sleep inducing move in the game in spore and has the chance to use it multiple times in game. For these reasons I would like to nominate Shroomish for B+ rank
  5. apt-get

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    Scraggy's Crunch can't OHKO Misdreavus. Surely means it's terrible, right?

    I agree on high C for Meowth, but no low B. Normal Gem Covet is pretty nice.
    Also high C for Aipom, it's not as bad as ppl say and it still has some bulk with evio and hits pretty hard with fake out with Life Orb.
  6. Shouting

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    Actually, if Staryu switches into Minefoo on a knock off or Drain Punch, it will lose against Mienfoo most of the time. Granted many Mienfoo will just end up switching because they will take heavy damage in the process.

    And Shroomish definitely deserves B-tier. Spore / Giga Drain / Fake Tears / Synthesis is a seriously underrated set. Anything that can take Grass attacks but doesn't have a Super effective move actually loses to Shroomish with this. It includes Bronzor, Lileep, Porygon. Lickitung, etc. and you can even beat Ferroseed if you want. Anything that can hit you super effectively, like Ponyta, Foongus, HP Fire Magnemite, Murkrow, etc. you can spore. Between Fake Tears and Spore, checking Shroomish is MUCH harder than Cottonee and Foongus.

    Also, I want to bring up some nominations that should go into C-tier

    Turtwig: I'm pretty sure this is the only Grass type to get Stealth Rock apart from Ferroseed. This is a great niche it has since it has better recovery than Ferroseed but still can lay Stealth Rock. It also has a great movepool, it can go physical or special, with great moves like Earth Power, Superpower, Iron Tail, Reflect, Light Screen, Crunch, and even Curse, which are moves that other Grass types wish they had. It also beats Drilbur and Staryu which are the most common spinners right now. Unfortunately it's pretty slow, but if you need Stealth Rock but want the resistances of Shroomish at the cost of Spore, I think Turtwig is viable.

    Dieno: It only has one viable set because it's so slow, if it hit even 16 speed it would be great but it only hits 14. Scarf and Hustle really runs through a lot of teams like crazy. It can 2HKO pretty much anything with the right move like Porygon, Lileep, and even Hippo which are the bulkiest of what LC has to offer. A resistance to Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet are pretty useful as well for cleaning. Like Snover though, it's outsped by really anything that has a scarf, weak to mach punch/ fighting (pretty sure all fighting types are at least 2HKO by Outrage though) and there is always the miss chance.
  7. Goddess Briyella

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    I'd like to note that Meowth speed ties with Missy (19) and HP Fighting does not OHKO it. So using Bite as it switches in guarantees beating it one on one if it comes down to that. Even so, I'd like to reiterate that Meowth is not designed to take hits. It is designed to get free damage and get the hell out of there (early game), and later on after the opposing team has been softened up, it can afford to be more offensive. STAB Technician Fake Out, and the ability to steal Eviolite with STAB Technician Covet, after boosting the free damage with Normal Gem, really goes a long way.
  8. Superpowerdude

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    I think Meowth should stay where it is imo. Yeah its has a strong stab fake out, 19 speed, Covet and even Bite for Missy but it is still majorly outclassed by Mienfoo for a a pokemon that can apply early pressure and be a real offensive threat late game. Like Meowth, Mienfoo also has Fake Out and U-turn letting it preform a similar role of getting off chip damage and scouting with U-turn. However with Drain Punch, Eviolite and Regenarator it is much easier to keep Mienfoo healthy then it is to keep Meowth healthy and it can actually take some hits. while Meowth does have a fast U-turn, entry hazards and the great amount of priority abusers in lc will make it difficult for Meowth to stay healthy. Mienfoo also has greater typing. Fighting is a very good offensive type in lc, hitting normal, Steel, ice, rock and dark super effectively so it is quite easy to recover health with Drain Punch. This also lets Mienfoo check Scraggy, arguably the most powerful set up sweeper in the tier while it can walk all over Meowth. You can retaliate and say that Meowth can beat Missy switch ins with Bite but that's still...meh. You have to take into account that you will want to use Fake Out often or even Covet so Misdreavus can often switch in for free. There is also the speed tie and if Meowth is weakened (which it is much more likely to be compared to Mienfoo) it could be ohkod by Hp Fighting. Misdreavus could also cripple it with Will-o-Wisp. If you Bite a Missy switch in then you can beat it yeah but that's not too different to a Mienfoo situation. If Misdreavus switches into Mienfoo's Knock Off it becomes much easier to beat even though Mienfoo can't beat it itself. Meowth isn't bad by any means but theres just no reason to use it when Mienfoo is in the tier and that's why I think Meowth should stay at mid C
  9. Goddess Briyella

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    I think that having STAB and Technician boosted Fake Out and also being able to 2HKO Missy with Technician boosted Bite has a somewhat significant niche, and also I feel the fact that Technician Normal Gem Covet is a decently damaging attack combined with a means of stealing Eviolite is a unique attribute as well. It makes it better than Aipom.

    I completely agree that Mienfoo outclasses Meowth; I never suggested that the two were even comparable, but I'm wondering why Meowth is being compared to an S rank Pokemon when I'm suggesting it be moved only to a high C rank or a low B rank. Mienfoo is certainly an overall better mon than Meowth, but Meowth does have its uses and unique strengths that Mienfoo does not. Now that you mention it, I would like to note that Missy bullies Mienfoo but can't safely switch into Meowth, so there's that. ^_^
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  10. Punchshroom

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    Well, any Rock or Steel type (Tirtouga, Ferroseed, god forbid Archen) can set up on Meowth even at the cost of their item, so there's that to worry about.
  11. The Unlucky one

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    why would I use Meowth if I could run Knock Off on Eviolites for Mienfoo's end. And if I wanted to beat Missy, I would just use Sub+Payback Mienfoo. That has BP and sub to stop it from being setup fodder, stopping most efforts at revenge killing. It's sad that Meowth's main niche going for it is beaten out by just a specific variant of a mon, and in essence, there really isn't a reason to use Meowth on a team rather than some pretty specific reasons. I guess it shouldn't really push up a rank. It's pretty fine where it is, B-Rank is out of question at least
  12. Superpowerdude

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    I may be comparing Meowth to Mienfoo in a way but that's not because one is S tier and one is C, its because there is simply no reason to use Meowth when Mienfoo is around for the reasons that I mentioned. Also TUO and Punchshroom made some good points
  13. Shouting

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    I disagree, mienfoo is well prepared for on every LC team in the form of Misdreavus (usually). Meanwhile most people have to use makeshift Meowth checks like Porygon and Lileep because the vast majority of teams don't carry Archen, Aron, or even Ferroseed.

    But since these really aren't Meowth checks, it can actually work to Meowth's advantage. For example if Meowth Fake Outs or Returns a Lileep switching in, the Lileep is going to recover 90% of the time because U-turn will hit Lileep pretty hard and will most likely be forced out by what ever comes in and Lileep won't be able to recover ( and then will lose to Meowth if it switches in again ). Meowth can take advantage of this by using taunt which screws up both Porygon and Lileep which will most likely be a team's answer to Meowth.

    Believe me, I thought Meowth was terrible too but Taunt Meowth is very annoying and a great lure for Lileep and Porygon, just like how Taunt Murkrow is very underrated.


    I also want to nominate Magby for B-tier. It's really an underrated threat and a dark horse. Barely anyone uses it, yet it can definitely dismantle many standard LC teams. It has a great movepool, can go mixed, special, and physical which includes priority of it's own. It's a great Chinchou lure, since it can 2HKO Chinchous with very little prior damage. It can beat Porygon pretty handily and it can be a great sweeper or a powerful wallbreaker.

    I also think Shellder should move up to B+ - it sweeps the Chinchou / Larvesta / Drilbur (Staryu) / Mienfoo core fairly easily. It beats Murkrow with Ice Shard, and it isn't as hard to set up as people think, as it can take pretty much any neutral physical hit very well and set-up.
  14. Superpowerdude

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    Ok firstly if you don't have Misdreavus covered when teambuilding then your team is not made correctly meaning it doesn't really matter if your opponent has Misdreavus when you have Mienfoo + a well built team so 'people being more prepared for Mienfoo is an invalid point. Mienfoo can Knock Off its eviolite or U-turn into something like Mukrow. The Meowth checks you mentioned are only walls keep in mind once normal Gem is used it can be revenged killed by any Pokemon faster then it really. Scarf Mienfoo, Snover, chinchou, mag,, etc will all be able to revenge kill if its taken a little damage. Also you failed to mention that Tirtouga can set up on it, Pawniard can set up on it, and Drilbur and Sandshrew will both beat it in sand.

    Magby is cool but the popularity of sand is what makes it struggle in this metagame. Also it can definitely not beat Porygon lol.
  15. Shouting

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    Not every Meowth is using Normal Gem and Covet, it is a good set but Life Orb is definitely viable as well, which hits pretty hard and invites Lileep and Porygon moreso than Normal Gem does for the fear of Covet. Even if it does carry Normal Gem and uses it, Snover certainly can't switch in, as it can be OHKO'd by a Return with Stealth Rock, Chinchou and Mienfoo are always 2HKO'd (this is without normal gem or Life Orb). The only (popular) scarfers that can switch into Meowth multiple times is Magnemite and Misdreavus (and it might carry bite so it's not always safe).

    And the same scarfers you mentioned can also revenge kill Mienfoo as well, in fact Meowth is harder to revenge kill than Mienfoo because it sits at a higher speed.

    Again outlining just how good Taunt is on Meowth- Tirtouga and Pawniard can't set up in front of you. Ferroseed included.

    And Magby can defintely beat Porygon (it doesn't even need Cross Chop to do so)
    200 SpA Life Orb Magby Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.15 - 61.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Wall Breaker)

    236 Atk Life Orb Magby Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.15 - 61.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mixed Sweeper)

    Or, the Mixed Sweeper can save the recoil and go for an Overheat, which will also do the trick before or after a Flare Blitz

    0 SpA Life Orb Magby Overheat vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.15 - 61.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  16. Superpowerdude

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    Lol ok if we are going to bring other sets into this then Mienfoo can actually beat Misdreavus with its Life Orb set and Substitute + Payback, Eviolite is not the only thing people run. Mienfoo is much harder to revenge kill than Meowth. Yes Meowth is faster but all the Choice Scarf users I mentioned outspeed it. Meowth doesn't usually carry Eviolite, and would have to obtain it through Covet meaning its not bulky enought to take the hits that Mienfoo does. Lastly, Mienfoo has Regenerator letting it stay healthy making it harder to revenge kill. Sure Scarf Murkrow can revenge kill it but if Mienfoo is healthy which it is likely to be with Regenerator and Eviolite it can beat Scarf Snover, Scarf Mag and hell, even take a Hydro Pump from Scarf Chinchou take away some of its health Drain Punch then switch out getting even more hp back.

    Meowth is more frail, doesn't have Regeneratpr and therefore is much easier to revenge kill. You mentioned Meowth running Life Orb which it can do, but the reciol will make it even easier to revenge kill. Also even with Taunt on Meowth Tirtouga, Pawniard and Ferroseed can still beat Meowth since they can take any hit easy and ko the frail Meowth with their Stabs

    I apologise Magby can actually 2hko Porygon, I must vs a lot of noobs using Magby lol. On further inspection B- seems ok for it but still it is weak to Stealthrock and sand and won't be abke to beat Porygons that come in safely vs Magby. Also Life Orb + stealthrock weakness + flareblitz will make it not last long but its a wallbreaker I guess and the same could be said about Murkrow with Lo + brave bird + stealth rock weakness.
  17. iss

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    Changes:

    Croagunk: A -> B+
    Magnemite: B+ -> A
    Cottonee: B- -> B
    Shellder: B- -> B
    Shroomish B -> B-
    Machop: C- -> C+
    Aipom: C -> C+
    Purrloin: D -> C-

    Additions:
    Turtwig: C+
    Magby: B-
    Deino: C

    Under discussion this week: Natu and Sandshrew! As always feel free to discuss anything.
  18. Axisotaku

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    I'm thinking Natu fits exactly in his B mid spot. I use him in my current team and he has a pretty strong niche in magic bounce. The only reason I wouldn't place him higher than that is because of mold breaker Drilbur and Dwebble. Besides those two, Natu can safely switch into almost any grass types(sometimes even Lileep if you think he will either try to SR or toxic), fighting types that aren't scraggy and all those defensive stealth rockers. His great speed and u-turn allows him to scout extremely well on top of keeping momentum.

    As for Sandshrew... Well besides his use in double sand rush team there is absolutely no reason to use him over Drilbur if you want a ground type to put down rocks. Even if Drilbur was banned for some reason and I didn't have a sand team, Hippopotas or Cubone would probably do a better job (and Cubone is a D). But if we are judging his power in the double rush team then he is probably a B+ or even maybe A (it all depends on how well the team is built cause with 3 ground type is quite hard to support)
  19. (makeup)

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    My opinion on the current rankings:

    Clamperl without Eviolite is really hard to set up, and Clamperl with Eviolite isn't super threatening even when it does set up...it has issues with priority, especially Murkrow's Sucker Punch, which some Clamperl run Sub for, but that leaves them weak to Mienfoo's Fake Out. Since most teams carry both Mienfoo or Murkrow, Clamperl will probably have a hard time sweeping, and as an added difficulty Mienfoo and Murkrow are really hard to take down when played well. It also has trouble vs fast Scarfers like Krow and Misdreavus. Imo, it should be moved down to mid B rank

    Cottonee is annoying but honestly it's really bad usually...all it can really do is Encore setup sweepers, but it has to switch in which is really dangerous considering it's super frail and has no reliable recovery. It's also weak as hell and if your opponent carries Heal Bell or the ability to switch, it's pretty useless. Womewhere in C fits it best, probably around high C rank

    Dwebble also isn't that great. It's pretty weak and frail, which makes a Shell Smash set subpar, and the hazard set gets wrecked by Rapid Spin. Seriously, any team with Rapid Spin makes Dwebble basically useless, especially since it can't do anything to the only relevant spinners 1v1. I'd say move it down to mid low B rank

    Abra is pretty great imo because it's guaranteed to do something. Magic Guard + Focus Sash means Abra will always have some kind of positive influence on the match, and its typing is good for LC. Being able to outspeed and OHKO Mienfoo is really useful, and its stats in general are really great for its role since it can use Focus Sash to get one (or usually two) hard hits in. I would like to see Abra in A rank
  20. Nebuchadnezzar

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    In my opinion Natu deserves to High B Rank rather than Mid B. Axisotaku brought up some great points as to why Natu is viable, I just believe he deserves a slightly higher ranking. By being the only Magic Bouncer in LC, his presence alone can cause mindgames. The opponent's Dwebble may be out against my Bronzor for example. Will he use SR or Rock Blast anticipating the switch? Porygon v Porygon is another example. Will he use Thunder Wave trying to hinder my Porygon or go for Shadow Ball/Tri-Attack. These are just two examples of the decisions Natu can force your opponent to make.

    I used Natu on my first LC team and then quite a bit later because I was writing its analysis. His ability to shut down Parafusion Krow is unmatched, and we all know how annoying that set can be. Magic Bounce just provides great utility. High B.
  21. GlassGlaceon

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    munchlax for B rank. I know this is like kinda wierd to just shoot sumfin up that high, but it's insane bulk, and ability to counter snover is greatly appreciated on any team. It can run about 3 different viable sets, which is the norm for top LC mons bar murkrow who can run at least 30 million. but a nice base 85 attack or base 135/85 special defenses make it a force to be reckoned with or a tough wall to climb over. what is keeping him from a rank imo is his 4mss and mono-normal typing with subpar physical defense. munch has body slam for the para chance which is appreciated with his low speed, or return to smack holes in walls. heck, even body slam punches...slams holes in anything that won't resist. Bronzor? Fire punch. pawniard? Fire punch/brick break or focus punch if you're feelin risque Mienfoo? Switch :L Or go for the body slam on the switch in and hope for the para, but munchlax breaks holes in normal types' usual counters making him a viable candidate for a team :3
  22. cxinlee

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    Supporting munchlax for low b rank.
    Munchlax is a really good check to snover, chinchou and magnemite, even abra and non Wow missy. It has a attack stat equivalent to pawniard, drilbur, mienfoo and murkrow's: 85. Yeah sure, it's viability is damaged by the number of fighting types in the tier, as well as lack of recovery. Overall I think.it deserves at least low b rank.
  23. The Quasar

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    I agree for Munchlax on b rank (IMHO low b rank is right place for it). It's a good Snover's counter (almost two games of 10 are on hail), has a versatile movepool and decent statistics like quite a lot HP and a important SpD.

    But why is Abra so down?
  24. Kingler12345

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    I don't see abra in A. Infact I would have supported it for S, but of course it has weaknesses to common scarfers who hit it hard, it can't switch in, etc. But that thing has amazing coverage and is pretty hard to deal with. It hits really hard with its 105 base special attack and is pretty fast, reaching the 19 speed tier, coveted in LC.
    For all these reasons I support abra for high A or mid A or just A in general.
  25. (makeup)

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    Uh I just realized Slowpoke isn't on here
    can we all agree that it's B? It's bulky as hell, has amazing typing, and Regenerator, which alone should be enough to establish it as at least mid B
    Raseri likes this.

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