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Gen 5 Little Cup Viability Rankings - Mark II

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by iss, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    B, yup. High B for me.
    EDIT- Why is munchlax in mid C -_- It checks clamperl, pursuit traps sniver etc. It should be rank mid B imo.
    Charmander likes this.
  2. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    I think Mankey should be C rank, either mid or low. Scarf Mankey is actually really good and would be pretty common if Mienfoo didn't exist. It can do a lot to Missy with Punishment which is cool since Mienfoo doesn't get it, and Close Combat is more reliable than HJK
  3. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Ooh, that would be pretty interesting tbh. I've neer run mankey(never primeape in NU either) so it could work. Punishing(geddit) non substitute versions of NP missy would be amazing.
  4. Rowan

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    Aside from punishment, I can't think of any other reason to use Mankey when Mienfoo is around. It's simply outclassed. If Mienfoo didn't exist, I'm sure I could make a case for Mankey being a B-tier mon, but at the moment I can't see it going above a D or maybe low C at a push.
  5. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Punishment+cc is mankey's niche. I thought it would be like one of the fastest mons, but same speed as mienfoo -_-
  6. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    this is exactly what a C-rank Pokemon is
  7. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    I've noticed that Woobat defenitely has a niche with Simple Calm Mind Stored Power or Charge Beam. It only hits 17 speed so para support would be nice. Can we all agree on Low C?
  8. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Low C sounds good, it's revenged easily by krow and mole though it's still unique =/= decent.
  9. Rowan

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    Woobat for low C plz, look at this replay, shows how amazing it is :(

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oriserver-lc-40091

    Also, I'd like nominate Wooper for low C. With unaware it can make a pretty good stop to a lot of set up sweepers such as Tirtouga and Dwebble. It can even make a decent check to Evio Swords Dance Drilbur. It's typing is decent and allows it to get STAB on EQ and easily beat mons like Croagunk. Yeah, it's not fantastic but it's definitely usable and good enough for C imo.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  10. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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  11. Celever

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    Is it just me or should Nosepass actually go to B-?

    He has extraordinary bulk with/without eviolite, but is one of the few pokemon in LC who are good mixed walls with good utility and can also afford to use Leftovers. He can provide paralysis support very well and also Stealth Rock support in one pokemon, his offense is unfortunate but if you get taunted you can use a nice slow Volt Switch, which also helps in other cases to support a pokemon such as Taillow. He can also run a lethal pain split+toxic combo and I have had fun using him.
  12. Rowan

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    Nosepass is good, but the lack of reliable recovery really really hurts it. However, it does have Pain Split which can sort of work. Thunder Wave and SR are also really nice support options. However, it's role in the metagame is kind of small as it doesn't wall too many of the common Pokemon. If you look at the top 30 in usage stats, Nosepass can wall a grand total of 4 Pokemon. Murkrow, Houndour, Drifloon and Larvesta. Although this does include the best Pokemon in the tier, there are other Pokemon that can check Murkrow and not be useless outside of that. There are simply too many commonly used Pokemon that can take advantage of Nosepass, making it more of a liability if you have it in your team. D rank
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  13. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    I think Nosepass belongs in low C because it's good but almost completely outclassed by Archen. Archen has Flying typing, which means it gets Roost and isn't weak to Fighting or Ground. These traits basically make it much better than Nosepass imo
    Nosepass is much bulkier but in the long run it doesn't really matter since it will just get worn down until it faints with no good recovery
    edit: also want to nominate Rhyhorn for low C because it has great stats and situationally good typing in that it does great versus Murkrow, especially with Rock Blast, but it loses to Fighting-types. Rock/Ground STAB coverage is really good and Rhyhorn would probably be a legitimate threat if stuff like Mienfoo and Timburr didn't exist
  14. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    What rank would Oddish fall into? I've had success with it by using manual sun and it actually sweeps quite well (Got up to 1746 by using it from just starting to play LC today lol). What are the thoughts on it?
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  15. Celever

    Celever

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    D rank, use Bellsprout.
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  16. cxinlee

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    Im going to nominate porygon for S-rank.

    Porygon has impressive bulk, and can easily switch into a lot of moves like Chinchou Hydro Pump or Murkrow Brave Bird, and Recover off any damage. It can cripple Set-up Sweepers like Scraggy and Tirtouga with a Thunder Wave, severely ruining their sweeping capabilities.

    Trace is also an amazing ability. Porygon can Trace Volt Absorb from Chinchou to stop the Volt Switch and ruin the momentum, Trace Prankster from Krow to get priority Thunder Wave and Recover, Trace Foongus Regenerator, etc.

    Porygon also has something that most walls lack : Offensive Power. Sporting 85 Special Attack, which is equivalent to Misdreavus', it can fire off powerful Tri Attacks, and can run Shadow ball to hit Ghosts.

    Yes, Fighting Types are everywhere, but I think Porygon's Pros far outweigh its Cons to be S-rank.
  17. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    I'm gonna nominate tentacool for high B.
    Tentacool has been one of the few viable spinners in LC along with drilbur, sandshrew and staryu. It has great utility in toxic spikes and knock off and can wall snover efficiently. It is therefore a great choice for many teams, especially sand.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  18. Akane Kurashiki

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    In my opinion, Drillbur should be moved in Top A-Rank. Drillbur indeed spins, and becomes a team eater under sand, and unstoppable with a +2. And that's pretty much it.
    First, Snover is in every top team except sand. Drillbur will never kill more than one pokemon if Snover is alive. He just comes back after, and blizzard / giga drain, blizzard indeed ohkoes, and giga-drain has got 94% chance to deal 82% of life (18/22). Hippopotas can't come back until he really wants to get take huge damages :
    184 SpA Snover Giga Drain vs. 132 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
    -> Which means 94% to deal 72%
    184 SpA Snover Blizzard vs. 132 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    (24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30)
    To make fast, after any kills, snover just comes in and blizzard/giga-drain without the sand team to be able to take his weather back. Well, we all know why is snover S rank.
    There's also the problem of priority attacks, which brings a few problems too. Hello, timburr...
    It's not about drillbur power in solo, it's about how drillbur fares in a team. He's still very good, but he does not desserve S rank.


    Then, I nominate Porygon and Foongus for S-Rank.
    They're so incredibly good. First, porygon.
    Porygon's stats are 65/60/70/85/75/40. His bulk is impressive, but he also has a very good Satk stat. But the best with him is Trace, and his movepool.
    Most of the top-tier pokemons are top-tier because of their ability. Porygon can copy regenerator from foongus, mienfoo, he can copy all the absorbing abilities, which makes him for exemple able of switching into Chinchou, a status problem will be cured by switching into a Staryu, a switch in Murkrow is still the best possibility of using Trace as it allows him to priority thunder wave and recover.
    His movepool is still his most incredible part. He accesses to boltbeam, to normal stab/ghost/hp fight, and his stalling part has recover, a move any staller would like to have, and thunder wave who cripple the fighting switches he causes (Not timburr, right) - which is one of the worse things that can happen to our beloved SSS tier, mienfoo. Those are so many pros they clearly outshine his normal type whose (only !) weakness is fight.

    Now, foongus. First foongus has spore. Anybody likes to have spore. Especially in LC where the hugest majority of teams are offensive, and haven't any way of countering that (I run insomnia murkrow just for the sake of fucking foongus) Then, he resists fighting type and his defensive stats aren't bad, that makes him a very good pokemon at shuting down set-up fighting pokemon (murkrow is the other best) with his haze ability. He also got a good offensive movepool including grass/poison/hp. Oh, and regenerator, the best ability in the game.
    To make it simpler, having a foongus in your team means the ennemy won't even try to set-up as that's completely useless against foongus. I come, i spore/haze, you made me 40% , I made noticeable damages and regained 33% by leaving. Bye.

    Finally, I nominate Abra for A-Rank.
    Magic guard is so fucking good. I'm especially talking of the sash set here. Abra just comes up and at least kills one pokemon. 105 BS in SAtk, and the glorious 19 speed. His psychic will destroy anybody except bronzor/dark types. It allows him to shut down any set-ups, any sweeper a team is based on (excadrill@sand team, for exemple ?) The few stalls team will also enjoy facing a magic guard user 2shoting anybody better than any wallbreaker ^^
    Well, Abra fares well against sweep, against weather, against stall, against normal sweepers, against set-up, against toxic-stallers, against... against anything right ? Desserves A-Rank.
  19. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    First off, drilbur for A rank?
    NO. It's one of the most threatening sweepers/wallbreakers in the tier and the reason snover is S rank. Also sand teams carry counters to snover(pawniard can pursuit trap it and isn't even 2HKOed by HP fire IIRC) so that makes it all the more difficult to counter. Never ever A.
    Porygon for S rank
    I agree, fucking awesome.
    Foongus for S
    Not really, it's forced out by common pokemon like missy and murkrow and spore is one time use. It may have a fighting resist but the most common and the second most common one can knock off its eviolite. Also it has pretty lacklustre defenses compared to other pokemon. Stay in A pls
    Abra for A
    Yes fucking yes. I think i've nominated it already.
  20. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Changes:
    Munchlax: C -> B-
    Abra: B+ -> A
    Tentacool: B- -> B
    Porygon: A -> S
    Sandile: D -> C-

    Additions:
    Slowpoke: B
    Shelmet: B-
    Mankey: C-
    Woobat: C-
    Nosepass: C-
    Oddish: D
    Smoochum: C
    Shellos: C-
  21. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Seems fair nuff.
    Though I have never used it, shroomish is an effective sand counter who can use spore like foongus and absorb toxic from walls. I support it for mid or high B.
  22. Shouting

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    I don't think Porygon belongs in S rank, most people think it's impenetrable without some sort of fighting type move but in reality it isn't. Toxic makes Porygon very much less effective as a whole, and since toxic users are significantly more ambiguous than something like Taunt or Spore / Sleep Powder, it's very easy to lure porygon into a toxic. For example, you might switch your Porygon in on Foongus to trace that regenerator, only to get a toxic status. It may have a good special attack stat, but it will go uninvested most of the time, and when you are slow and have the terrible coverage of Normal + Ghost, it really doesn't matter.

    It also has only one viable set, and that would be the bulky set. The only other set that might be worth giving a shot would be an Agility/Trick Room set, but even then it falls flat in most cases, plus they more or less have the same checks as the bulky set. Choice Scarf Porygon does not beat Sand. It might be able to revenge Drilbur, but that does not mean it beats sand; Choice Scarf Porygon is walled by Lileep in sandstorm so it will never be anything more than a Drilbur revenge killer (and choice scarf porygon will never OHKO eviolite Drilbur even after stealth rock with ice beam), seeing as there are faster scarfers in the tier there is really no other reason to scarf a porygon.

    Also, Porygon really isn't that great of a Misdreavus check. assuming Porygon comes in on a Nasty Plot, it really is a coin toss of who wins.
    Porygon vs. +2 Misdreavus:
    Porygon can Thunder Wave, Shadow Ball, or Recover

    If you use Thunder Wave and Misdreavus uses Substitute, Misdreavus wins
    If you Thunder Wave and Misdreavus uses Hidden Power Fighting, Misdreavus still wins (albeit Paralyzed and with about half it's health left. Now in theory, Porygon can recover and fish for a fully paralyzed, but when Hidden Power is doing more than 50%, and another Nasty Plot will ruin Porygon, it's not reliable.)
    If you Shadow Ball and Misdreavus uses Hidden Power Fighting, Misdreavus wins. (Again, with roughly half it's health.)
    If Porygon just sits and recovers, it will obviously lose to Misdreavus.
    If you Shadow Ball and Misdreavus uses Substitute, the result will depend on the next set of moves.
    • Porygon uses Thunder Wave next and Misdreavus uses Substitute again, Misdreavus wins.
    • Porygon uses Shadow Ball and Misdreavus uses Substitute, Porygon wins. (most of the time anyway, with less than half of it's health)
    • Porygon uses Thunder Wave and Misdreavus uses Hidden Power Fighting, Misdreavus wins (Paralyzed, with about 20% more or less)
    • Porygon uses Shadow Ball and Misdreavus uses Hidden Power Fighting, Misdreavus wins. (with about 20% left more or less)
    Granted, not every Misdreavus carry Substitue, but it is used quite commonly and even if it carries Wil-o-Wisp or something it can still beat Porygon.

    Besides that, two very dangerous set-up sweepers set up on it quite easily, Scraggy and Pawniard (Sub + SD Pawniard !!) which can heal paralysis or just avoid it. Ferroseed sets up hazards, Bronzor toxics, sets up Stealth Rock, and can even Calm Mind in front of you, Lileep sets up stealth rock or toxics, eviolite Archen can switch in quite easily, not to mention anything with a Life Orb can at least 2HKO it, making them very good lures for it. Also, eviolite Ponyta can actually 2HKO Porygon fairly reliably after Stealth Rock as long as it has Flame Body (which people should actually use.) Drilbur also can get past it as well, whether it uses Life Orb or Swords Dance.

    Just to nitpick, Foongus can actually pose a significant threat to Misdreavus because it does learn Payback, which has enough power to 2HKO it. I'm not saying that everyone should use it, but if you want to give it one less set-up opportunity it could be useful I suppose.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  23. TCR

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    I agree with pretty much all of those (i might put tentacool A rank simply because its fantastic against snover and mienfoo, but thats just me) except for porygon for S rank. It may be bulky, but as shouting said its setup bait for a lot of thigs, as with running the current set you lose out on good doing much with your attacks. I say A rank at best. Its good, but its not S rank good imo, for reasons already stated
  24. Laurel

    Laurel Never Too Late
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    Hi guys - so I just started playing LC today, and I think that Seel deserves a D rank. I know from looking at it's BST it is complete garbage, and perhaps on paper, but I have used it very effectively in some matches. It is know RU pre hail ban Walrein, but of all the Pokemon who get Ice Body in RU, Seel is the best. With the shortness of spinners in LC, the only three I have ever seen are Drilbur, Staryu, and Tentacool. Tt is pretty easy to keep Toxic Spikes up - as the only poisons I ever really see are Croagunk and Tentacool. Toxic Spikes + Protect + Substitute + Ice Body is a nightmare. Furthermore, once your opponent is weak enough Seel has Aqua Jet to pick off an opponent, and more importantly can use Surf instead to take out Hippopotas. Sure - Seel needs some sure fire team support in Pokemon like Tentacool for Toxic Spikes, and Snover for hail, but if your opponents lacks a Hippo, Seel can be a nightmare. Of course, it has awful stats, but again that is not to say it does not have its small niche in the LC Metagame. I think it is at least viable for a D Rank.
  25. cxinlee

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    First of all I see no reason I would switch Porygon into a Misdreavus Nasty Plot. That would be a really dumb move and if i do that its my own fault that porygon goes down because i play like shit. I would only switch it if im very sure its gonna use Shadow Ball. Porygon 2hkos Misdreavus after Stealth Rock while Missy fails to 2hko back with hp fighting.

    Regarding Toxic I agree that it Porygon dislikes it, and that its more ambiguous than T wave, Spore. This is one of its major weaknesses, even though you can run a cleric or trace Staryu Natural Cure to avoid it.

    Next, every mon has its counters (at least most), and Set-up Sweepers like Scraggy and Pawniard are some of them. Every good team will have Porygon's counters covered well anyway. I don't like the argument that "It loses to Pokemon X thus it sucks" Porygon's victims far outnumber its counters. You can even run Toxic to catch Lileep on the switch.

    In my opinion Porygon makes teambuilding much more easier as it is one of the few Pokemon that can counter a lot of mons without necssarily having a type advantage, so it is the only pokemon i can think of that can counter both chinchou and Murkrow.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013

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