Little Cup Viability Rankings - Mark II

Also regarding Seel I think it should be D rank. It has a niche for having ice body to stall in hail. Unfortunately like Kingler12345 pointed out, ice body gets back only 1 hp, equivalent to 6%. Thus its forced to use lefties+ Ice body + Aqua Ring to even it out with the Hp used for Substitute, and that means it is pretty frail without eviolite. Overall, I don't really think it should be on a serious team, but I guess its "usable".
 
First of all I see no reason I would switch Porygon into a Misdreavus Nasty Plot. That would be a really dumb move and if i do that its my own fault that porygon goes down because i play like shit. I would only switch it if im very sure its gonna use Shadow Ball. Porygon 2hkos Misdreavus after Stealth Rock while Missy fails to 2hko back with hp fighting.

Regarding Toxic I agree that it Porygon dislikes it, and that its more ambiguous than T wave, Spore. This is one of its major weaknesses, even though you can run a cleric or trace Staryu Natural Cure to avoid it.

Next, every mon has its counters (at least most), and Set-up Sweepers like Scraggy and Pawniard are some of them. Every good team will have Porygon's counters covered well anyway. I don't like the argument that "It loses to Pokemon X thus it sucks" Porygon's victims far outnumber its counters. You can even run Toxic to catch Lileep on the switch.

In my opinion Porygon makes teambuilding much more easier as it is one of the few Pokemon that can counter a lot of mons without necssarily having a type advantage, so it is the only pokemon i can think of that can counter both chinchou and Murkrow.
My misdreavus example was to point out that many, many LC players think porygon is better than it actually is / checks things it really doesn't check. Many people believe that porygon is one of the best Misdreavus checks, but that is obviously wrong as I just pointed out.

For example, you say that Porygon can counter both Chinchou and Murkrow, but Chinchou can still volt switch on porygon if it uses water absorb, which I have actually seen done before quite often, especially on volt-turn teams. It might check Chinchou, but if porygon isn't at full health, it can fall to 2 Hydro Pumps quite easily, or it can just be burned by scald which limits it also.

Now for Murkrow, Life Orb Murkrow 2HKOs Porygon, so it really isn't a check to that. Any Murkrow carrying Taunt will beat Porygon, especially Taunt + Toxic Murkrow, Calm Mind Murkrow beats Porygon, and I'm not sure how porygon would handle Parafusion Murkrow, but it probably wouldn't be very pretty. So that really leaves Sub-Roost Murkrow and Choice Scarf Murkrow, but even Choice Scarf Murkrow has more than a 50% chance of 2HKO porygon, so is it really a check to Murkrow? In fact, Lileep is a better overall "check" to Murkrow than Porygon is (and lileep isn't even that good of a check either), since it can beat Calm Mind Murkrow with toxic, and will avoid the 2HKO from Choice Scarf Murkow (it also counters most Chinchou as well.)

I agree that porygon can make a good emergency check to things you might not consider a threat right off the top of your head, Like Dragon Dance Axew, but there are a lot of ways to get passed it, offensive teams will usually have something that easily sets up on it and a Fighting type, and more defensive/balanced teams have toxic and will pretty much always have something that resists it's coverage like Ferroseed or Lileep.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tcr
My misdreavus example was to point out that many, many LC players think porygon is better than it actually is / checks things it really doesn't check. Many people believe that porygon is one of the best Misdreavus checks, but that is obviously wrong as I just pointed out.

For example, you say that Porygon can counter both Chinchou and Murkrow, but Chinchou can still volt switch on porygon if it uses water absorb, which I have actually seen done before quite often, especially on volt-turn teams. It might check Chinchou, but if porygon isn't at full health, it can fall to 2 Hydro Pumps quite easily, or it can just be burned by scald which limits it also.

Now for Murkrow, Life Orb Murkrow 2HKOs Porygon, so it really isn't a check to that. Any Murkrow carrying Taunt will beat Porygon, especially Taunt + Toxic Murkrow, Calm Mind Murkrow beats Porygon, and I'm not sure how porygon would handle Parafusion Murkrow, but it probably wouldn't be very pretty. So that really leaves Sub-Roost Murkrow and Choice Scarf Murkrow, but even Choice Scarf Murkrow has more than a 50% chance of 2HKO porygon, so is it really a check to Murkrow? In fact, Lileep is a better overall "check" to Murkrow than Porygon is (and lileep isn't even that good of a check either), since it can beat Calm Mind Murkrow with toxic, and will avoid the 2HKO from Choice Scarf Murkow (it also counters most Chinchou as well.).
I agree that porygon can make a good emergency check to things you might not consider a threat right off the top of your head, Like Dragon Dance Axew, but there are a lot of ways to get passed it, offensive teams will usually have something that easily sets up on it and a Fighting type, and more defensive/balanced teams have toxic and will pretty much always have something that resists it's coverage like Ferroseed or Lileep.
First of if anyone thinks that pory is a missy counter they are obviously wrong as you pointed out already. Regarding Chinchou, it can't do much to porygon and loses out most of the time (unless it has toxic), and its forced to run away with Water Absorb + Volt Switch. Yes, if Porygon isn't at full health it falls to two Hydro Pumps, but of course like any other mon you have to use it with smart play, don't bring it in if its in 2hko range for Hydro Pump.

Regarding Krow its hard to find a "true" counter to it, if you consider all the different sets it can run. Lets not forget that Tirtouga loses to Krow with Hp grass, Restalk Chou loses to Taunt Krow with Toxic and Magnemite loses to Krow with hp ground (If it is weakened, heat wave can finish it).I was mainly referring to Sub Roost Krow in my post. A lot of Mons cannot counter LO krow (Archen is the only counter I can think of) and Porygon is no exception, and I think that it isnt fair to put a wall against a wall breaker and expect it to win. Porygon however, can beat Krow 1vs1 by recover and t wave spamming (so it wins at full health), which is really good. Taunt krow and Cm krow can beat it undoubtedly (I have tried them, and they are all much better than sub roost, they are really hard to counter), I cannot deny that you are correct. Also about lileep being a "better" counter to Porygon, Porygon can also run Toxic too to beat for example, lileep, just saying Toxic is also viable on Porygon to beat lileep and cm krow. Lileep also fails to counter the krows mentioned above bar cm krow ( I don't even know if it actually beats it). Scarf Krow cannot 2hko Porygon, so it eventually kills itself from recoil damage as Porygon recovers any damage off.

I think that even though Porygon is hampered by Toxic, fighting types and set up sweepers (like any wall does), its great bulk, amazing ability, and pretty good attack makes it s-rank worthy.
 
True, there really aren't 100% counters to Murkrow, but Porygon can only switch in safely on one Murkrow set. I don't know if it's just me, but that definitely isn't "checking Murkrow" when any other set can beat it. Now if we look at other Murkrow checks they include:

Aron, which isn't 2HKO'd by Life Orb Mukrow unless it carries Hidden Power Ground over Grass / Dark Pulse. It beats Toxic + Taunt Murkrow, as well as Sub-Roost Murkrow and Choice Scarf Murkrow. Probably loses to Parafusion more often than not (but it probably has a better chance of winning than Porygon) and will likely lose to Clam Mind Murkrow.

Tirtouga, comfortably checks Choice Scarf Murkrow and it can beat Taunt + Toxic Murkrow as well. Sub-Roost sets are easy switch ins, and I'm sure there was an EV spread posted that could actually survive Hidden Power Grass from Life Orb Murkrow with Solid Rock if you are using a bulkier set. Probably loses to Parafusion but again, it has a better chance than Porygon. Also probably loses to Clam Mind Murkrow with smart play, but Stone Edge does have a high critical hit chance.

Archen, beats Life Orb Murkrow quite comfortably, checks Choice Scarf Murkrow very well, beats Sub-Roost with little problems, as well as Taunt + Toxic Murkrow. Parafusion Murkrow probably wins, as well as Calm Mind Murkrow.

Hippopotas, loses to Life Orb, beats Choice Scarf, beats Sub-Roost, loses to Taunt + Toxic, beats Calm Mind if it has Toxic or Whirlwind, and will probably beat Parafusion as long as it has Rock Slide.

Magnemite, loses to Life Orb, beats Sub-Roost, does decently against Choice Scarf I suppose, beats Taunt + Toxic, Parafusion is iffy, but again, it has a better chance than Porygon. Calm Mind is a toss up. If it has Dark Pulse, it loses. If it has Hidden Power Flying, it will probably win.

Chinchou, loses to Life Orb pretty much. beats Sub-Roost, beats Choice Scarf, and beats Taunt + Toxic if it's offensive, loses if it isn't. Wins against Parafusion, and loses to Calm Mind.


All of them perform better than Porygon. Can they beat every Murkrow set? No. But they can handle more than one, which makes them decent checks. Porygon wins against one set and one set only, which really doesn't make it a check to Murkrow.

Also, Toxic on Porygon really isn't that good, as Bronzor, Ferroseed, and Pawinard don't care about it. It's really only for Lileep, but you'll open yourself up to Tirtouga, Omanyte, and Shellder, so it really isn't worth it.

And because Choice Scarf Murkrow uses a +Attack Nature, it can definitely 2HKO Porygon:
240+ Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Porygon: 10-13 (38.46 - 50%) -- 59.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
I do agree that Porygon cannot beat some forms of Murkrow. When I said that it can counter Murkrow, I was referring to SubRoost Krow which is the most common. Murkrow has a lot of viable moves to abuse and beat each of its “counters”, which like Porygon, cannot beat some types of Krows.


Murkrows “counters”: (Assuming they all try to switch into an attack)


Tirtouga: loses to lo krow, beats taunt krow lacking featherdance, ties with CM krow (Featherdance and Shell Smash)


Chinchou: If weakened, it can be easily picked off by a Sucker Punch. It loses to Lo Krow and CM Krow.


Magnemite: Lo krow 2hkos with Heat Wave, loses to CM Krow. Beats Taunt Krow.


Aron: Lo krow 2hkos with Heat Wave. Beats Taunt Krow.


Archen: Beats LO Krow, Beats CM Krow, Beats Taunt Krow


Lileep: loses to taunt krow, LO Krow and CM Krow


Porygon: Same as Lileep


Yes, Porygon isn’t as good a Krow counter as Tirtouga, Magnemite, Archen and Aron, which are considered “hard counters”, but being capable of taking unboosted Brave Birds and beating the extremely common SubRoost Krow makes it a decent counter to it. If we say that Porygon is not a Krow counter because it gets countered by certain variants that are rarer, it means that the only legitimate counter to Murkrow would be Archen, as every other counter loses to either the Taunt, Life Orb, or the Calm Mind variant. I find that beating the most common form of Krow earns porygon the right to be considered a decent counter to Murkrow.
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I do agree that Porygon cannot beat some forms of Murkrow. When I said that it can counter Murkrow, I was referring to SubRoost Krow which is the most common. Murkrow has a lot of viable moves to abuse and beat each of its “counters”, which like Porygon, cannot beat some types of Krows.


Murkrows “counters”: (Assuming they all try to switch into an attack)


Tirtouga: loses to lo krow, beats taunt krow lacking featherdance, ties with CM krow (Featherdance and Shell Smash)


Chinchou: If weakened, it can be easily picked off by a Sucker Punch. It loses to Lo Krow and CM Krow.


Magnemite: Lo krow 2hkos with Heat Wave, loses to CM Krow. Beats Taunt Krow.


Aron: Lo krow 2hkos with Heat Wave. Beats Taunt Krow.


Archen: Beats LO Krow, Beats CM Krow, Beats Taunt Krow


Lileep: loses to taunt krow, LO Krow and CM Krow


Porygon: Same as Lileep


Yes, Porygon isn’t as good a Krow counter as Tirtouga, Magnemite, Archen and Aron, which are considered “hard counters”, but being capable of taking unboosted Brave Birds and beating the extremely common SubRoost Krow makes it a decent counter to it. If we say that Porygon is not a Krow counter because it gets countered by certain variants that are rarer, it means that the only legitimate counter to Murkrow would be Archen, as every other counter loses to either the Taunt, Life Orb, or the Calm Mind variant. I find that beating the most common form of Krow earns porygon the right to be considered a decent counter to Murkrow.
Sooo....previously you argued that It deserves a spot in S tier because of its ability to counter murkrow.

Then you say it only counters SubRoost murkrow? How exactly is that worthy of S tier again? (Not bashing or anything just wondering why youre retracting portions of your argument)
 
Sooo....previously you argued that It deserves a spot in S tier because of its ability to counter murkrow.

Then you say it only counters SubRoost murkrow? How exactly is that worthy of S tier again? (Not bashing or anything just wondering why youre retracting portions of your argument)
I didn't say that its S-rank because it counters Murkrow, but because its versatile and can counter a lot of pokes (including Krow). It counters SubRoost (and Scarf Krow), which is the most common form of Krow there is. Murkrow is extremely versatile and can run many sets to beat everything. I am saying that countering the most common form of Murkrow is good enough for it to be a decent counter. Not as hard a counter as Tirtouga, Magnemite, etc, but its still a "counter".
 

Vileman

Actually a Nice Fella
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
UPL Champion
A poke i'd like to see going up is wynaut. The support it brings to sand teams by trapping snovers (scarf sets, evio is knida easy to deal with, or it can just encore it o.o) and to Set up sweepers by encoring slow, support pokes like foongus, feroseed, bronzor, even slowpoke and more pokes i cant remember atm its prety awesome! Playing smart with it by using destiny bond on set up sweepers + encore can change a match by giving you momentum. Overall, his good bulk and support by the fact that it has encore (which is highly underated from what ive seen) can move it up to B+, or even A. (leading more to B+)
Another poke i could see moving up is pawniard, the bulky sub+Sd set its just amazing, with sucker punch + iron head it gets good coverage and it works as a bulky and strong poke who can easily set up on the likes of foongus and feroseed. It can als run a life orb, purely offensive set (just ask @kingmitus ) which has more power and speed. Its very easy to sweep teams with it, and it definetly deserves, at least, B+.
 
I didn't say that its S-rank because it counters Murkrow, but because its versatile and can counter a lot of pokes (including Krow). It counters SubRoost (and Scarf Krow), which is the most common form of Krow there is. Murkrow is extremely versatile and can run many sets to beat everything. I am saying that countering the most common form of Murkrow is good enough for it to be a decent counter. Not as hard a counter as Tirtouga, Magnemite, etc, but its still a "counter".
Going by last year's usage, Life Orb Murkrow and Choice Scarf Murkrow account for about 30% of all Murkrow alone. Murkrow that carry eviolite occur 59% of the time, but Taunt + Toxic, Parafusion, and Calm Mind Murkrow also carry eviolite ( Almost 25% of Murkrow carry Thunder Wave, 12% carry Confuse Ray, so it would be safe to say that Parafusion Murkrow make up around 10% of all Murkrow, and 4% use taunt)

I don't think it is a stretch to say that the amount of Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, Parafusion, and Taunt + Toxic Murkrow combined comes close to the amount of Sub Roost Murkrow.

Considering that Porygon can be 2HKO'd at full health by Choice Scarf Murkrow's most commonly used move, it's a pretty terrible check.

A poke i'd like to see going up is wynaut. The support it brings to sand teams by trapping snovers (scarf sets, evio is knida easy to deal with, or it can just encore it o.o) and to Set up sweepers by encoring slow, support pokes like foongus, feroseed, bronzor, even slowpoke and more pokes i cant remember atm its prety awesome! Playing smart with it by using destiny bond on set up sweepers + encore can change a match by giving you momentum. Overall, his good bulk and support by the fact that it has encore (which is highly underated from what ive seen) can move it up to B+, or even A. (leading more to B+)
Another poke i could see moving up is pawniard, the bulky sub+Sd set its just amazing, with sucker punch + iron head it gets good coverage and it works as a bulky and strong poke who can easily set up on the likes of foongus and feroseed. It can als run a life orb, purely offensive set (just ask @kingmitus ) which has more power and speed. Its very easy to sweep teams with it, and it definetly deserves, at least, B+.
I haven't used Wynaut in LC, so I can't really comment on it, but I have used Pawniard (specifically Sub-SD) and I agree it's a really good set. It can set up on a bunch on things, like Lileep, Foongus, Ferroseed, Choiced Snover, etc.

One thing I observed about Pawniard (at least with Sub-SD) is that is completely destroys teams, or does absolutely nothing. This is because Sub-SD Pawniard has a few hard counters, mainly physically defensive walls that resist Iron Head and can stall out Sucker Punch (think Slowpoke, Frillish, even Shellder to an extent.) and these are hard to beat since they tend to have recovery and good bulk. Another thing I hate about Pawniard is how it's beaten by things it's supposed to check, like Misdreavus and Abra, because of it's weakness to Fighting. Still, it's a really good set-up sweeper.
 
Last edited:

Vileman

Actually a Nice Fella
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
UPL Champion
Going by last year's usage, Life Orb Murkrow and Choice Scarf Murkrow account for about 30% of all Murkrow alone. Murkrow that carry eviolite occur 59% of the time, but Taunt + Toxic, Parafusion, and Calm Mind Murkrow also carry eviolite ( Almost 25% of Murkrow carry Thunder Wave, 12% carry Confuse Ray, so it would be safe to say that Parafusion Murkrow make up around 10% of all Murkrow, and 4% use taunt)

I don't think it is a stretch to say that the amount of Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, Parafusion, and Taunt + Toxic Murkrow combined comes close to the amount of Sub Roost Murkrow.

Considering that Porygon can be 2HKO'd at full health by Choice Scarf Murkrow's most commonly used move, it's a pretty terrible check.



I haven't used Wynaut in LC, so I can't really comment on it, but I have used Pawniard (specifically Sub-SD) and I agree it's a really good set. It can set up on a bunch on things, like Lileep, Foongus, Ferroseed, Choiced Snover, etc.

One thing I observed about Pawniard (at least with Sub-SD) is that is completely destroys teams, or does absolutely nothing. This is because Sub-SD Pawniard has a few hard counters, mainly physically defensive walls that resist Iron Head and can stall out Sucker Punch (think Slowpoke, Frillish, even Shellder to an extent.) and these are hard to beat since they tend to have recovery and good bulk. Another thing I hate about Pawniard is how it's beaten by things it's supposed to check, like Misdreavus and Abra, because of it's weakness to Fighting. Still, it's a really good set-up sweeper.
About the does nothing or destroys, thats on paper tbh. The amount of resistances it has and the fact that it has sucker punch gives him a role on every match, at least, as a revenge killer. Also yeah pawniard might have to watch out for HP fighting but still, nothing can truly switch into misdreavus, but good predictions help :]
 
Scarf Murkrow cannot 2HKO Porygon unless Stealth Rock is up, and even then it only has a 60% chance of taking out.


Ok I have just read the usage list for August (http://paste.ubuntu.com/6054039/). First, what I did see was that from my estimations, 13% of Murkrow are parafusion,

19% are MixKrow, 4% are Taunt Krow, and CM krow is somewhere less than 4% (Let’s assume its 3%). In that case, 39% of Krow lose to Porygon. Also according to the list of Murkrow’s Counters and Checks, Porygon ranks 3rd, KOing Krow 27% of the time and getting it to switch 36.4% of the time.


Porygon isn’t meant to hard counter Murkrow like mons like Magnemite do (Magnemite loses to LO krow and CM Krow so I’m not sure if it’s considered to be a hard counter anymore), but I find that it’s a decent counter as it can easily tank an unboosted Brave Bird, the most commonly used item on Porygon. It also separates itself from most of the other counters as it is able to beat Murkrow without a Type Advantage, meaning that it gives the team more flexibility as you aren’t forced to run a Steel, Electric, Rock Type to beat Murkrow.

Regarding Pawniard it is a very dangerous sweeper. Running max attack it can OHKO Drillbur with Sucker Punch 75% of the time. However, the main problems I see in Pawniard is that 1) It is very weak to fighting types, and 2) It lacks a solid attacking move. Scraggy and Mienfoo have Hi Jump Kick, Drilbur has Earthquake, Snover has Blizzard and Murkrow has Brave Bird. Unfortunately for Pawniard, its main STABs are Iron Head (Its flinching chance is wasted as Pawniard is rather slow) and Sucker Punch, two 80 BP moves that are rather weak for a sweeper. Imo it should stay where it is.
 
Last edited:
god this is such a horrible argument. porygon is honestly a pretty poor murkrow check in all regards. it can't switch into mixkrow, loses 40% of the times to subroost krow and scarfkrow with rocks up, taunt krow beats it and it's practically set up bait to cmkrow. unless your porygon has thunderbolt it's not really doing much to murkrow either. i don't understand why you're arguing a lost cause.

porygon deserves its s-rank because it's one of the most bulky mons in the tier, has two fantastic abilities, a good recovery move, a good offensive and utliity movepool. porygon does however check offensive misdreavus and abra fairly well, while it also checks the other weaker pokemon in the tier. it's kind of a jack-of-all-trades pokemon, that really only suffers from a bad defensive typing.

it's an s-rank pokemon, it's not a murkrow check.
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Except psychic from abra does around 40% IIRC. so with a measly 8% of damage (2% with sand up) if it switches into rocks theres a strong chance of a 2hko. Ill include calcs in a minute, but im fairly sure that damage roll is correct. Regardless, its not really that good of a check to things imo. Dont get me wrong, porygon is a really good pokemon, but its not the iron titan everyone says it is. Especially since it loses the majority of the time to the top 3 pokemon in LC: mienfoo murkrow and missy. Mienfoo is obvious. Murkrow was discussed, as something like 39% of the time(did i read that right?) it loses. And missy was also discussed previously, as NP and SubNP variants it loses to, not to mention crippled by specs sets. The only time it can do anything is to eviolite + painsplit+ WoW. Which it 3hkoes with shadow ball(god forbid it runs thunderbolt) while missy does 35% with hp fighting.

Its good with trace ill give you that. The ability to switch into volt switch chin and foongus and slowpoke and whatnot is great. But its not S tier worthy. As ive already said, A tier solely.

EDIT: forgot rocks and sand doesnt do 18% in LC... My point still stands though
 
Last edited:
Except psychic from abra does around 40% IIRC. so with a measly 8% of damage (2% with sand up) if it switches into rocks theres a strong chance of a 2hko. Ill include calcs in a minute, but im fairly sure that damage roll is correct. Regardless, its not really that good of a check to things imo. Dont get me wrong, porygon is a really good pokemon, but its not the iron titan everyone says it is. Especially since it loses the majority of the time to the top 3 pokemon in LC: mienfoo murkrow and missy. Mienfoo is obvious. Murkrow was discussed, as something like 39% of the time(did i read that right?) it loses. And missy was also discussed previously, as NP and SubNP variants it loses to, not to mention crippled by specs sets. The only time it can do anything is to eviolite + painsplit+ WoW. Which it 3hkoes with shadow ball(god forbid it runs thunderbolt) while missy does 35% with hp fighting.

Its good with trace ill give you that. The ability to switch into volt switch chin and foongus and slowpoke and whatnot is great. But its not S tier worthy. As ive already said, A tier solely.

EDIT: forgot rocks and sand doesnt do 18% in LC... My point still stands though
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

HP Fighting's highest damage is still 46.15%, it just has a high base damage.

+2 240 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 16-20 (61.53 - 76.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (45.45 - 54.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Misdreavus can't reliably setup on Porygon if it switches in on Tri Attack.

soo uhh yeah...
 
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

HP Fighting's highest damage is still 46.15%, it just has a high base damage.

+2 240 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 16-20 (61.53 - 76.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (45.45 - 54.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Misdreavus can't reliably setup on Porygon if it switches in on Tri Attack.

soo uhh yeah...
That's extremely close to 2HKOing, like if Porygon switches in with like 90% health it's dead. Not incredibly reliable. And I have never seen any Misdreavus switch into Porygon since it's common knowledge that almost all of them carry Shadow Ball. Porygon will lose if it comes in on a Nasty Plot or a Substitute. There is a difference between Misdreavus being able to set up on Porygon and Porygon checking Misdreavus - Misdreavus cannot set up on Porygon, but Porygon cannot stop a +2 Misdreavus. In fact a lot of what Porygon checks can come really close to 2HKOing it, like Snover. If you have Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes on the field, the amount of things Porygon can switch into safely dramatically decreases, which means it needs Rapid Spin support, as well as a Fighting type check or two, plus things to deal with it's hard counters.

Also Download is really useless on Porygon, it has no STAB it can use, it's physical movepool consists of a whopping two moves, and when your fully invested positive-natured Attack is lower than your uninvested Special Attack, Return isn't going to cut it, and it can't even touch Steel (or Rock or Ghost) types with it's physical moves so you'll have to go mixed, which subtracts from it's power as a whole, and even Porygon is frail and easily worn down with Life Orb, it's also weak to Mach Punch, so Download Porygon is pretty moot. When was the last time you saw a Download Porygon?
 
Last edited:
That's extremely close to 2HKOing, like if Porygon switches in with like 90% health it's dead. Not incredibly reliable. And I have never seen any Misdreavus switch into Porygon since it's common knowledge that almost all of them carry Shadow Ball. Porygon will lose if it comes in on a Nasty Plot or a Substitute. There is a difference between Misdreavus being able to set up on Porygon and Porygon checking Misdreavus. In fact a lot of what Porygon checks can come really close to 2HKOing it, like Snover. If you have Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes on the field, the amount of things Porygon can switch into safely dramatically decreases, which means it needs Rapid Spin support, as well as a Fighting type check or two, plus things to deal with it's hard counters.

Also Download is really useless on Porygon, it has no STAB it can use, and when your fully invested positive-natured Attack is lower than your uninvested Special Attack, Return isn't going to cut it, and it can't even touch Steel types with it's physical moves so you'll have to go mixed, which subtracts from it's power as a whole, and even Porygon is frail and easily worn down with Life Orb, it's also weak to Mach Punch, so Download Porygon is pretty moot. When was the last time you saw a Download Porygon?
it's still a decent check. these calcs are all after stealth rocks, and a 0.39% chance of 2hko'ing after stealth rocks is pretty decent to me. without rocks it's a 3hko. the deal i'm trying to make with porygon is that it's a very good all around check to many pokemon, has good uninvested offensive power, and has thunder wave and recover. it is not ohko'd by many pokemon and that's what makes it so great. also, with sr + 1 layer of spikes, your odds of getting 2hko'd increase by a drastic 11.72%.

tri attack (a STAB move), thunderbolt, ice beam, shadow ball, and hidden power fighting (yes, it can touch steel types) sound like pretty good offensive coverage moves to me. it kind of sounds like you think that download only can raise attack. i will agree, though, trace > download. and i don't get why i'd have to run mixed. subroost murkrow can't touch steels? cmkrow can't touch steels? foongus can't touch steels? big deal. there's about two prevalent steel types in the tier if you don't count bronzor (which i don't because it sucks).
 
Y'all forgetting about one of the best Murkrow check, out there, Bronzor. Not the crappy Toxic/Stealth Rocks set, but CM Resttalk with possibly Heatproof. Only Taunt Murkrow can even hope to touch it, which make up like 1/40th of Murkrows out there. It's not used much, but I have yet to ever have a problem with Murkrow since I started spamming it. Try it out.

The reason I have an issue with Porygon being S tier... It provides NO defensive coverage, being immune to only Ghost and resisting nothing, and can't take Specs/Boosted HP Fights from Misdreavus anyway. So what does it do? It can beat a Drifloon, trap a Chinchou, paralyze something (IMO every team needs a status absorber or at least something that doesnt care about paralysis)... Not much else. It's terribly prone to status, with no way to cure itself without a Staryu on the other team. Compare it to say a Foongus or Vullaby, it doesn't apply any real pressure to the opposing team. Put this way, Porygon is like a blanket wall. It does OK or feasibly versus most things. It doesn't shut anything down or leave any impact. Foongus can sleep something and doesn't have to waste turns Recovering, Vullaby can cripple hard with Knock Off and actually threaten something with Brave Bird. I just don't feel threatened by tickling Tri Attacks.

I'm sure 95% of people will disagree with me, but when was the last time you went "Damn, this Porygon got me", or "That Porygons gonna be tough to deal with"? Teambuilding skills definitely need to be worked on if Porygon is paralyzing half a team or if sweepers are constantly shut down by it. It's just not that powerful.

there's about two prevalent steel types in the tier if you don't count bronzor (which i don't because it sucks).
Magnemite, Ferroseed, Pawniard, and YES Bronzor. I cannot emphasize the strength and threat coverage that CM Rest Bronzor brings to a team.
 
Last edited:
it's still a decent check. these calcs are all after stealth rocks, and a 0.39% chance of 2hko'ing after stealth rocks is pretty decent to me. without rocks it's a 3hko. the deal i'm trying to make with porygon is that it's a very good all around check to many pokemon, has good uninvested offensive power, and has thunder wave and recover. it is not ohko'd by many pokemon and that's what makes it so great. also, with sr + 1 layer of spikes, your odds of getting 2hko'd increase by a drastic 11.72%.

tri attack (a STAB move), thunderbolt, ice beam, shadow ball, and hidden power fighting (yes, it can touch steel types) sound like pretty good offensive coverage moves to me. it kind of sounds like you think that download only can raise attack. i will agree, though, trace > download. and i don't get why i'd have to run mixed. subroost murkrow can't touch steels? cmkrow can't touch steels? foongus can't touch steels? big deal. there's about two prevalent steel types in the tier if you don't count bronzor (which i don't because it sucks).
And that 11.72% goes up to almost 60% if there's Sand or Hail (which in coming on a Snover there will be.) It's the typing that hurts it really, since it has really no type advantage on anything at all therefore can be beaten quite easily if not in tip-top condition (as in like above 85%.)

Tri-attack is illegal with Download, so you're really working with Return, Zen Headbutt, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fighting, and you can't have all of them. Skip Ice Beam? you'll lose to Rock types. Skip Hidden Power Fighting? Can't touch steels. Skip Psychic? say hello to pretty much any fighting type, etc. Porygon isn't even that fast to begin with, and setting up an Agility / Trick Room is almost impossible with no eviolite and no resistances.

EDIT: I was going to go further but Wobbyble pretty much said anything I could have better, especially about Porygon being a Blanket wall.

Also, I kinda agree about the viability of CM Bronzor, when ever I face it, I am always unprepared since it has different checks than the defensive set entirely and gives me a lot of trouble. For example Staryu can switch in on the Stealth Rock set with no problems, but it can't switch into Calm Mind Bronzor. It's really anti-metagame right now.
 
Last edited:

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
it's still a decent check. these calcs are all after stealth rocks, and a 0.39% chance of 2hko'ing after stealth rocks is pretty decent to me. without rocks it's a 3hko. the deal i'm trying to make with porygon is that it's a very good all around check to many pokemon, has good uninvested offensive power, and has thunder wave and recover. it is not ohko'd by many pokemon and that's what makes it so great. also, with sr + 1 layer of spikes, your odds of getting 2hko'd increase by a drastic 11.72%.

tri attack (a STAB move), thunderbolt, ice beam, shadow ball, and hidden power fighting (yes, it can touch steel types) sound like pretty good offensive coverage moves to me. it kind of sounds like you think that download only can raise attack. i will agree, though, trace > download. and i don't get why i'd have to run mixed. subroost murkrow can't touch steels? cmkrow can't touch steels? foongus can't touch steels? big deal. there's about two prevalent steel types in the tier if you don't count bronzor (which i don't because it sucks).
Its a decent check on paper to most things. But the fact that all it takes is SR and literally almost any amount of damage to 2hko it means its not as good a check as it could be, since most sweepers power through it.

Also idk anout you but i always run bulky NP missy. Which takes around 40% from shadow ball. My apologies for not mentioning the set
 
Sadly, this thread is showing off why Murkrow is so godo and not why Porygon doesn't function. Porygon does function well, even though it deserves to be A-rank, its more of showing the power of Murkrow than it does showcase the problems that Porygon has (literally no one mentioned being setup fodder to DD Scraggy, or the MissyPory core getting surprise by SubPass Foo)
 
And that 11.72% goes up to almost 60% if there's Sand or Hail (which in coming on a Snover there will be.) It's the typing that hurts it really, since it has really no type advantage on anything at all therefore can be beaten quite easily if not in tip-top condition (as in like above 85%.)

Tri-attack is illegal with Download, so you're really working with Return, Zen Headbutt, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fighting, and you can't have all of them. Skip Ice Beam? you'll lose to Rock types. Skip Hidden Power Fighting? Can't touch steels. Skip Psychic? say hello to pretty much any fighting type, etc. Porygon isn't even that fast to begin with, and setting up an Agility / Trick Room is almost impossible with no eviolite and no resistances.

EDIT: I was going to go further but Wobbyble pretty much said anything I could have better, especially about Porygon being a Blanket wall.

Also, I kinda agree about the viability of CM Bronzor, when ever I face it, I am always unprepared since it has different checks than the defensive set entirely and gives me a lot of trouble. For example Staryu can switch in on the Stealth Rock set with no problems, but it can't switch into Calm Mind Bronzor. It's really anti-metagame right now.
yes normal defensive typing hurts. it also helps since it only has one weakness.

actually timid choice scarf thunderbolt/psychic/shadow ball/hp fighting gets pretty good coverage and ohko's a large majority of the metagame. modest does even better damage but you only hit 19.5 speed, which i believe rounds down. life orb completely decimates. i'm not really trying to argue download though since i agree that trace is better?

Its a decent check on paper to most things. But the fact that all it takes is SR and literally almost any amount of damage to 2hko it means its not as good a check as it could be, since most sweepers power through it.

Also idk anout you but i always run bulky NP missy. Which takes around 40% from shadow ball. My apologies for not mentioning the set
i agree with that, but it's rarely ohko'd, which lets me cripple the sweeper with paralysis and it's very easy to gain momentum when my murkrow powers through your sweeper.

i'm really not sure on the standard npmissy set, i would assume it's not the bulky set but i'm not sure.
 

apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

HP Fighting's highest damage is still 46.15%, it just has a high base damage.

+2 240 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 16-20 (61.53 - 76.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (45.45 - 54.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Misdreavus can't reliably setup on Porygon if it switches in on Tri Attack.

soo uhh yeah...
Misdreavus can't reliably setup on Porygon if it switches in on Tri Attack.

soo uhh yeah...
if it switches in on Tri Attack.
Tri Attack
Misdreavus
 
actually timid choice scarf thunderbolt/psychic/shadow ball/hp fighting gets pretty good coverage and ohko's a large majority of the metagame. modest does even better damage but you only hit 19.5 speed, which i believe rounds down. life orb completely decimates. i'm not really trying to argue download though since i agree that trace is better?
Scarf Porygon without Trick. You're doing something wrong here. If you're running Life Orb Porygon, I'd like to direct you to sub+3 attacks Clamperl, which basically does the same thing, which is basically 2HKO the entire metagame.

I'd like to nominate Ponyta for A tier, or at the very least raise Pony awareness of it's amazingness. Residing on the 19 speed requirement for a speedy attacker, it's along the strength lines of Murkrow and Misdreavus. It gets a strong 120 base power stab move just like Murkrow, coverage with Wild Charge, a strong ability that can easily cripple a Mienfoo or Croagunk, status through WoW if you're not confident in Flame Body, recovery, a move that amplifies its recovery, power, and removes its weakness to water, and one of the highest Total Base Stats in the Little Cup metagame. Another thing of note, is how underrated Fire type is as a defensive type. Being able to resist Fire Blast and Flare Blitz while not taking stupid damage from Wild Charge and HP Grass is a rarity among the meta and shouldn't be underestimated. Heal Bellers are fairly rare, so literally just having Ponyta will make Mienfoos think twice about ever U Turning.
Use the Pony. Embrace the Pony. Pony for A Tier.
 
Another reason while Ponyta deserves A is that it can get passed usual checks like Chinchou and Tirtouga with Sunny Day and Solarbeam. Resttalk Chinchou is 2HKO'd by Sun Flare Blitz, while Scald is like a 4HKO, and more offensive sets can be 2HKO'd by Solarbeam if you don't want the recoil.Shell Smash Tirts are outright OHKO'd by Solarbeam while aqua jet isn't doing much, and Solid Rock Shell Smash can be OHKO'd with a bit of prior damage. This is all with a Jolly Nature too.

It's kind of unappreciated because most people turn to Larvesta for a Fire-type since they have similar qualities and movepool, but Larvesta is more of a Utility / Pivot and Ponyta more of a sweeper / cleaner.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top