Little Cup Viability Rankings - Mark II

[Kingler]

I'm gonna go and nominate
Scraggy for S rank
Scraggy is a pokemon oft turned to when in need of a sweeper.
It's just so amazing, as after one dragon dance it has the power to OHKO or 2HKO most of the metagame. It can beat many of its common checks, like mienfoo, which can be KOed after SR+3 layers of spikes, Shelmet, which can just be Head Smashed and croagunk, which just lol's and zen headbutts, which also lets it beat prankster Riolu. It also sports good bulk. Any succesful team HAS to be able to check scraggy well to work.

 

[kingmidas]

I'm gonna go and nominate
Scraggy for S rank
Scraggy is a pokemon oft turned to when in need of a sweeper.
It's just so amazing, as after one dragon dance it has the power to OHKO or 2HKO most of the metagame. It can beat many of its common checks, like mienfoo, which can be KOed after SR+3 layers of spikes, Shelmet, which can just be Head Smashed and croagunk, which just lol's and zen headbutts, which also lets it beat prankster Riolu. It also sports good bulk. Any succesful team HAS to be able to check scraggy well to work.

Yes every team has to check it, but isn't that hard scarf krow and mienfoo shut it down completely. Also no team is able to get up SR and 3 spikes because in the current meta no one really like stacking spikes and SR overall since the matches don't last very long and it is really hard with the common spinner. Also it can't beat riolu if it roars. Overall scraggy is too weak to common mons to ever be S rank.

 

[Kingler]

Yes every team has to check it, but isn't that hard scarf krow and mienfoo shut it down completely. Also no team is able to get up SR and 3 spikes because in the current meta no one really like stacking spikes and SR overall since the matches don't last very long and it is really hard with the common spinner. Also it can't beat riolu if it roars. Overall scraggy is too weak to common mons to ever be S rank.

Uhh, the FACT that every team needs a check for it(a good one too; stuff like LO mienfoo won't work) and it can actually beat its counters imo secures a spot for S. Scarfkrow can't switch in on a Hi jump Kick and though my mienfoo example was wrong, it can get around most of its counters with the aforementioned ways.

 

[Wobbyble]

It's just so amazing, as after one dragon dance it has the power to OHKO or 2HKO most of the metagame. It can beat many of its common checks, like mienfoo, which can be KOed after SR+3 layers of spikes, Shelmet, which can just be Head Smashed

I'd sincerely hope a sweeper would be able to completely clean up a team after its boosted and has full hazards down. And GL getting past Croagunk/Mienfoo/Koffing/Timburr/Riolu etc with Head Smash.

Uhh, the FACT that every team needs a check for it(a good one too; stuff like LO mienfoo won't work) and it can actually beat its counters imo secures a spot for S.

Every team needs a check for Clamperl. Clamperl for S tier. Standard Dragon Dance/Crunch/Fighting filler/Coverage filler loses to Mienfoo, Timburr, Vullaby, and Feather Dance Murkrow. Nope, Scraggy isn't S material.

 

[Kingler]

I'd sincerely hope a sweeper would be able to completely clean up a team after its boosted and has full hazards down. And GL getting past Croagunk/Mienfoo/Koffing/Timburr/Riolu etc with Head Smash.

Every team needs a check for Clamperl. Clamperl for S tier. Standard Dragon Dance/Crunch/Fighting filler/Coverage filler loses to Mienfoo, Timburr, Vullaby, and Feather Dance Murkrow. Nope, Scraggy isn't S material.

It can be fully checked by a few things like riolu and timburr, but stuff like croagunk, koffing etc can be beaten as mentioned before. Clamperl doesn't reslly need a dedicated check as revenge killers are abound in LC and it has difficulty setting up without eviolite.

S rank: These Pokemon are unique. They are the best at what they do, and in the case of S-Rank Pokemon, what they do is an important role in the metagame. Their traits allow them to have a large impact on the metagame. There is no formula for an S-Rank Pokemon; each is truly unique.

Name a dragon dancer as good as scraggy. Only tirtouga compares in setting up IMO.

 

[kingmidas]

It can be fully checked by a few things like riolu and timburr, but stuff like croagunk, koffing etc can be beaten as mentioned before. Clamperl doesn't reslly need a dedicated check as revenge killers are abound in LC and it has difficulty setting up without eviolite.

Name a dragon dancer as good as scraggy. Only tirtouga compares in setting up IMO.

Uh lol Axew as a dragon dancer It has the coveted dragon type stab and it has coverage like superpower to itch past steel types, and it is faster so it doesn't have to rely on speed ties and its decent bulk and high speed after DD makes it hard to revenge kill.

 

[Nozzle]

Uhh, the FACT that every team needs a check for it(a good one too; stuff like LO mienfoo won't work) and it can actually beat its counters imo secures a spot for S. Scarfkrow can't switch in on a Hi jump Kick and though my mienfoo example was wrong, it can get around most of its counters with the aforementioned ways.

Sorry mate, but i disagree. Scraggy is still very good but not S rank material. It's checks are good in general and you usually include one or more of it's counters in your team anyway. I don't even specially prepare for it in my teams and i usually don't have a problem with it.

 

[Pen Ink]

Uh lol Axew as a dragon dancer It has the coveted dragon type stab and it has coverage like superpower to itch past steel types, and it is faster so it doesn't have to rely on speed ties and its decent bulk and high speed after DD makes it hard to revenge kill.

sadly axew does not have a good fighting/dark type and sucker punch eats it alive. superpower is pretty meh, i'd rather have drain punch. also hjk > superpower.

scraggy still isn't really s-rank material. earlier in the metagame when eviolite wasn't as prevalent i could see it, but right now everything has decent bulk and scraggy needs a boost or two to be threatening. honestly i can slap on defensive mienfoo, scarfkrow, scarf missy and scraggy + more is checked.

 

[Kingler]

Ehh withdrawing my proposal then.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

No one remembers Scarf Scrag who outclasses regular scrag at punching holes in things cuz no one expects their precious little mix-bird to get a face full of foot b4 it dies. Scarf scrag is so real everyone use it ;~;

 

[GlassGlaceon]

also my CPU is super laggy and made me click post b4 I was done, and it won't let me edit. So I'd still let scraggy stay where it is, although it is an effective sweeeper/revenge killer, imo the best in the tier. (But Srsly scarf scraggy is legit with scarf and moxie try it out

 

[Superpowerdude]

I think Scraggy is a very good sweeper and it is only really its lack of versatility that makes it not worthy of S-rank. Sure it can run Choice Scarf instead of Dragon Dance but it still gets walled by / beaten by the same Pokemon e.g Mienfoo, Foongus, Croagunk, Murkrow. Drilbur on the other hand, is a dangerous sweeper like Scraggy and a good rapid spinner and stealth rocker that can beat down Bronzor with Mold Breaker, Murkrow and Misdreavus can run a wide range of sets etc, which Scraggy just can't do. Plus teams are more prepares for Scraggy now then they were earlier in B/W and the only real new thing Scraggies have been doing is using Knock Off to help it manage its counters easier.

Again its still a ferocious sweeper, arguably the best set-up sweeper in the tier with its good bulk letting it set up easy and its great stabs and two good abiliyies to choose from but, people are aware on how to beat it and almost all competitive teama have Mienfoo.

 

[Kingler]

I think Scraggy is a very good sweeper and it is only really its lack of versatility that makes it not worthy of S-rank. Sure it can run Choice Scarf instead of Dragon Dance but it still gets walled by / beaten by the same Pokemon e.g Mienfoo, Foongus, Croagunk, Murkrow. Drilbur on the other hand, is a dangerous sweeper like Scraggy and a good rapid spinner and stealth rocker that can beat down Bronzor with Mold Breaker, Murkrow and Misdreavus can run a wide range of sets etc, which Scraggy just can't do. Plus teams are more prepares for Scraggy now then they were earlier in B/W and the only real new thing Scraggies have been doing is using Knock Off to help it manage its counters easier.

Again its still a ferocious sweeper, arguably the best set-up sweeper in the tier with its good bulk letting it set up easy and its great stabs and two good abiliyies to choose from but, people are aware on how to beat it and almost all competitive teama have Mienfoo.

Hm....k. Glad to see you back!

 

[tcr]

I'd like to go ahead and nominate Croagunk for A tier. It hard counters both RestTalk chinchou and Lileep(even if it runs HP Fire). It beats porygon, as its already slow af anyway(outsped by hippo of all things lol) and doesnt mind thunder wave or tri attack. It checks mienfoo really well, beats timburr most of the time, and beats non Zen headbutt scraggy (which honestly only the pros use, so stfu KM). Yes its wrecked by murkrow and abra, as well as hippo. But, it checks snover, misdreavus (knock off plus shadow ball. Lol at them using WoW) and others. The support set is just the perfect glue to a team and is usually my go to mon for 6th slot. This is all the support set, but the fun doesn't stop there. You can run a NP set as well, and set up on common things such as scraggy, mienfoo, and misdreavus (lol burns). If you have a storm drainer, such as lileep(are there any others?) you can also run poison touch if you so choose, for random poison. All in all i think its a good pokemon, and IIRC, it was A tier at the beginning of this thread. Lets put it A tier again!

 

[Wobbyble]

Croagunk actually loses to +1 Timburr. There's very little reason right now to use Croagunk over Timburr or Mienfoo. Timburr gets better base stats, Mach Punch > Vacuum Wave, and an equally good ability that actually makes it like Thunder Wave. Mienfoo on the other hand plays a much better support role, capable of potentially Knocking Off everything on the opposing team thanks to Regenerator, can actually beat Zen Headbutt Scraggy, and gets U Turn. While it's strong, I don't see how it is on the same level of strength as Timburr, and I think it still belongs in High B.

 

[Vileman]

Will this ever get updated o.o?

 

[Nozzle]

n

 

[Delver]

Because the scraggy for S argument came up. Again. I'm going to reiterate the argument to keep him in A. Again. Scraggy = an amazing sweeper, no argument saying otherwise is correct or intelligent. Scraggy is not S because it has many, popular checks, including but not limited to Mienfoo and Murkrow, and it has no other set. It is a sweeper. And thats it. Every single other S teir mon has multiple uses, and multiple, effective sets that causes it to check or be checked by different things. A great example is Murkrow, whos Mixkrow set can lure and deal with steel types that give its subroost set a problem. In LC flexability is power; and Scraggy lacks this element. sure he has extra coverage, in the form of HJK, ZHB and headcrash (the rock one, whatever its called). but each one only answers a few checks and opens up other ones. HJK deals with mienfoo but leaves it completely walled by croagunk and even gives missy a safe switch in if prediction is off your side, etc. You shouldnt need me to explain the pros and cons of the coverage moves, and my point is simply that there are both pros AND cons to chosing one of them. We've had this argument going on to a countable hand times now. Every single time the consensus is the same. If you want Scraggy to S; bring up his other sets. I think he can do Moxie scarf well, but I've never used it and kind of fail to see a reason to.

EDIT: lol sorry i didnt read half the last page before i posted. I think its scarf set might be enough to push it over though; Im not the one to make that argument though I know nothing about it.

In reference to the Croagunk statements; I havent used him enough in this meta to really have an opinion, but i know a coupple of things, like bulk up croagunk can just boost besides timbur and win the fight every day of the week and twice on sunday, and it has a lot of priority and a very useful move pool as has been stated. I think the biggest things that are holding it back is the absurd strength of krow and its inability to do much back combined with a team's dislike to make something too brave bird weak, as well as it competeing with other more standard fighters like mienfoo who boasts similiar strengths with much more resilience. I dont think its a bad mon by any means, but I'm not sure if i agree with A.

also im alive

 

[Wobbyble]

At this point teams and player mindset are so accustomed to playing against and countering Scraggy (the fact that the standard eviolite set is stupid easy to deal with doesn't help), that you're more likely to sweep someone with Numel. That is a 105% serious statement. That's why Scraggy is and should remain A.

 

[cxinlee]

Im sure a lot of people will oppose this.

Nominating Clamperl for A rank

Clamperl is an extremely good wall breaker with DeepSeaTooth, and my second favourite Shell Smasher (only behind LO Tirtouga which is damn awesome).

The main problem I found with Bulky Shell Smash Tirtouga is that it only swept about 20% of the time- It just lacks that sweeping power. It easily was walled by a lot of mons like Mienfoo and Foongus. Clamperl has that sweeping power that most smashers lack, and it is a mon that is very hard to wall. I don’t think anyone can argue about its sweeping power

The think that most people don’t like about Clamperl is its frailness without Eviolite. Firstly I think getting a 2 stage boost in power is actually better than getting a 1 stage boost in Defense and Special Defense, so I think its frailness is justified. Secondly I’d like to say that Clamperl doesn’t have a very big problem setting up at all. It can set up on Scarf Snover locked into Blizzard, and its 85 defence allows it to tank a lot of physical hit and set up on physical attackers. For example:

196 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 9-12 (42.85 - 57.14%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO

(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)



I don’t actually think it has a problem setting up.

Obviously when Clamperl sets up, priority is going to be a problem (like any other Shell Smasher). As I pointed out earlier, Clamperl isn’t as frail as everyone makes it out to be.

Calcs

108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Clamperl: 9-12 (42.85 - 57.14%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO

196 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 7-10 (33.33 - 47.61%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

76 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 5-7 (23.8 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO

Another thing about Clamperl is that it doesn’t need to set up to work. It can one-shot Foongus, Murkrow and Hippo with Ice Beam, and can kill off a weakened mienfoo. In about 40% of my games with it, it doesn’t need to set up at all (And it usually downs at least 2 mons).

 

[Vileman]

I support moving clamperl up, just for the fact that it can be either a SS sweeper or be played as a wallbreaker. If you play clamperl right you can lure and kill stuff that could stop the sweep, and proceed to sweep later. Having 34 (36 if modest) spc attack its just too good :] Its STAB its pretty good too and surf + ice beam + HP grass its all it will ever need. Priority is annoying in case you want to sweep but i like to recall thats it should innitially be played as a wallbreaker/bulky attacker.
It can live most non suppereffective attacks and hit back hard.

 

[Wobbyble]

I support Clamperl to A. You don't even need to set up, if you pair it with U Turns and Volt Switches, you can easily get it in on something like Foongus, and gain further momentum from there. The only pokes that aren't 2HKO are both pretty much garbage to be honest (Ferro/Munch), and anything that outspeeds is likely OHKO. Very strong pick in this meta IMO.

 

[Kingler]

For all the reasons listed above and the fact that Clamperl takes a huge dump on Sand teams with weakened Lileep, I support the moving of clamperl to A. Knock Off is balls for it though.

 

[Vileman]

For all the reasons listed above and the fact that Clamperl takes a huge dump on Sand teams with weakened Lileep, I support the moving of clamperl to A. Knock Off is balls for it though.

Isn't knock off balls to everything in LC?

 

[Kingler]

Isn't knock off balls to everything in LC?

It is, but losing a +2 spatk boost is far more crippling than losing and eviolite. I agree, though.