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Little Cup Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by macle, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. JacobNinja


    Aug 5, 2012
    Magnemite for A.
    I Run modest scarfed 240/240 spe/spa, which hits 21 spe and 20 spa, letting it outspeed anything unboosted, and giving it the strongest volt switch or u-turn in lc. It often serves as both a defensive pivot with its natural bulk, and a late-game cleaner with its power special attacks, because nothing besides chinchou or the occasional ferroseed can handle it.
  2. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

    Sep 26, 2012
    Show Hide
    Anorith - Gengan "C" Post 103
    Aron - gengan "D" Post 103

    Bulbasaur Good_Luck "B" Post 77

    Charmander - Delver "D" Post 118 - Note: Rayjay thinks its cute
    Chimchar - Delver "D" Post 118
    Cranidos - Macle "C-D" Post 104
    Cyndaquil - Delver "D" Post 118

    Darumaka - Macle "C-D" Post 104
    Deino - Delver "Low C-High D" Post 112
    Drifloon - Nozzle "High B, Low A" Post 99
    Ducklett - Gengan "Low C" Post 60

    Ekans - Lady Gaga "B" Post 80; Gengan "C" post 81

    Ferroseed <Selected for B unless there is Objection>
    Frillish - Gengan "C" Post 60; Delver "B" post 76

    Golett - Gengan "C" Post 60 -note: illegal movesets too stronk
    Growlithe - Delver "C" Post 118 - Note: most adorable gen 1 mon


    Joltik - Nozzle "C" Post 99


    Lickitung - Good_Luck "B" Post 71
    Litwick - Gengan "C" Post 60

    Munchlax - Good_luck "B" Post 71

    Natu - Corkscrew "B" Post 55


    Pawniard <To be placed in B unless objections>
    Ponyta - Delver "B+" Post 118


    Sandshrew - Delver "B" Post 67
    Smoochum - Delver "D-" Post 125 - Note "Kind of viable"
    Snorunt - Delver "D-" Post 125
    Swinub - Delver "D-" Post 125

    Tepig - Delver "D" Post 118
    Timburr - Hawkstar/Blara "A" Posts 87-88 - note: "anti-meta"
    Tirtouga - Corkscrew "A" Post 97 - note: "Hella cute"
    Torchic - Delver "D" Post 118
    Totodile - Delver "B" Post 118
    Trapinch - Corkscrew / Macle "D" Posts 101 and 104

    Vanillite - Delver "D-" Post 125
    Vullaby - Good_Luck "B" Post 115



    Zorua - Delver "C" Post 76

    I updated the list of unranked mons with notes next to the ones that have been mentioned but not discussed upon in the thread. Lets focus on these before revisiting already ranked mons. If its not the first mention of the mon I apologize, but i kinda rushed this so i can actually do some discussing. If i missed a post, sorry.

    Starting off by reittering a point by Nozzle:
    Theres no discussion to be had here. just put them in E rank so this list gets shorter, though "Trapinch is D" seems to be the verdict

    Anyways; I'm going to take this opprotunity to discus a various amount of pokemon starting with Gothita:

    While being a baby goth is the sort of thing that causes a little part of you to die on the inside, gothita gets Shadow Tag. This post is under the assumption that it's released because I'm like 80% sure it is. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are the two abilities that are just brokenly strong when on the right mons. A good example would be encoring a chinchou into an electric attack with good old wynaut, and switching in a diglett to hone claws and sweep. In higher teirs, Shadow Tag Chandelure is so scary cause it can lock Choiced mons into a TERRIBLE move, like scizor's bullet punch or any fighting / normal attack and easily reach +6 with calm mind. While Wynaut is more of a support mon, abusing shadow tag and encore to allow your sweeper a free switch, gothita *IS* the sweeper. Simply put it gets Calm Mind. While it may not have the same easily abused immunities of Chandelure, its not farfetched to imagine it switching in and acquring its +6. It does reach a problem in that non-scarf choice items are nearly non existant and it doesnt have the innate uninvested bulk to really take those early hit, or any physical ones. Also; the majority of the metagame has a reliable, non hidden power, way to hit Psychic typing SE and most of them run Eviolite; making the lack of switching less game breaking as they can just wear gothita down with moderately powerful physical attacks. Nevertheless Gothita has a respectable Special Defense and only barely sub par Special Attack and Speed stat. I think, with eviolite and some defense investment, it has the ability to be a very solid C mon. If I'm totally wrong and Shadow Tag isnt out, (Ooops :/) it's D at best.

    Next is Teddiursa. I'm nominating it for S rank because it's hella adorbs. seriously look at that thing and try and say no to it. You can't. Cause it's its hella adorbs. Anyways, to give it a good review I'll be typing this with my eyes closed, so bear (OH MY GOD IM HILARIOUS) with any spelling errors. Starting with the good, it has amazing offensive stats reaching a relatively large 17 attack stat with a neutral nature and the magical 14 speed stat with a positive nature. Quick feet lets it hit 21 without being limited to a single move. Its movepool gives it access to to Facade, which is just grossly powerful sitting upwards of 210 base attack after stab and good complimentary coverage in the form of close combat and crunch and a boosting move in Swords Dance to boot. Teddiursa lacks a lot though, specifically any form of defense. Toxic / flame orbs cut its already lacking defenses, severely limiting teddiursa's already short lifespan. I think it has a lot more use as a wall breaker or complimentary sweeper to weaken counters to your real sweeper. C teir?
  3. Good_Luck!


    Apr 18, 2011
    According to this post in DW released 'mons, Gothita isn't released to use on LC as the released Gothorita is male only. Serebii also makes a point on Gothorita being male only. Looks like GameFreak has forgotten LC exists.

    I agree with D-tier to Goth as it isn't as useless as the pokemon on E but it's outclassed by many other Psychic-types who have better abilities, movepool and/or a secondary typing. It's not mediocre, it's just plain useless.

    I agree that Teddi is S-rank in cuteness and C kinda looks good for it as it's heavily outclassed as Facade user by Taillow who has a neutrality to Fighting and a SE attack to hit back. It's very underrated in the current meta, but not that good to be on upper ranks, I think.
  4. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

    Sep 26, 2012
    Nah Game Freak just knows I only half pay attention to things. My B on the Gothita thing. I had completely left out Teddiursa's terrible typing, i kinda just included that in "horribly frail, like you've had cookies that are tougher than this thing frail" I would like to elaborate a bit on Taillow though and to do that I kinda want to adress all the normal fliers at once since they basically all follow the "totally outclassed by better normal/fliers" template.

    Swablu - Actually has some really great defensive stats and cloud nine. I would say it's a good weather check but it loses to its flying typing, making it weak to the only two weathers to exist in the teir (sand and hail for those who couldnt figure that out). Its slow speed keeps it from even pretending like it could wall drilbur too. Allin all you're better off using Lickitung if you want a Cloud-Niner. C unless lickitung ends up there; in which case D. Seriously Lickitung is strictly better i'd say.

    Taillow - like GoodLuck said, its faster and stronger than unboosted teddiursa, and has a good secondary stab too boot. Access to u-turn tops it off. still, its flying type = weak to rocks. I've never used one, and it seems like the kind of mon that can be good, so I'll let some one more qualified give a rating for it.

    Spearow - Take taillow, lower its important stats and raise dump stats by *1*. thats spearow. Sit down. E rank. I honestly cannot think of a single thing spearow does that some one else doesnt do better.

    Rufflet - suffers the same fate as a lot of new mons do: it can't abuse its actually *Awwwwsome* move pool. it has a monsterous base 83 attack, and is respectably fast for the teir. Oh yeah it gets Sheer Force (arguably the best sweeper ability in the game, *especially* in LC where getting 60% increases without LO recoil is godsend in a meta infested with eviolite). buuut since it really cannot abuse anything that makes it cool I'd have to say C teir, as just another fairly decent scarfer.

    Pidgey - aside from having the easiest name to make fun of (Lol pudgey) pidgey is completely outclassed by everyone at everything. E teir, go hang with Sunkern

    Hootoot - "Outclassed by Vullaby" as stated in its on-site description. I think thats accurate. It gets tinted lens in DW which is a damn good ability but I really dont think It'll be abusing it any time soon. E Teir

    Doduo - The runner of moneys, doduo has histortorically forced you to think whether the guts boost of Taillow is worth losing base power. honestly, I think it is, and when Scarf birds were big I used Doduo over Taillow every day of the weak. nevertheless it brings *even* less to the table that does taillow. I'm going to say C teir on the grounds that its scarf set is stronger than Taillow's without that guts boost. lets be honest here, switching a scarfed mon, thats weak to rocks to get *badly* poisoned or burned and then attack with recoiling moves isnt exactly the easiest thing to pull off, nor will award you with the "worlds most humane trainer" achievement :/. For the record I do think Taillow still belongs in C cause even though I (personally) think it's CS set is outclassed by Doduo's it still has the Guts sweeper to fall back on, giving it more versatility. I'm pointing that out cause I want to ensure we're looking at the mons in every possible light.

    Edit: oops totally gave away my secet thought that Taillow should be C
    Starly - Starly, having received the best possible dreamworld ability it could have asked for, is a far cry from the monstrerous Staraptor. Most importantly it doesnt get access to Close Combat - which is what made staraptor so grossly powerful. other then that it has mediocre stats, a mediocre movepool, and is generally outclassed by Taillow / Doduo. E Teir

    Pidove - if you were to take all of the mediocre points of all the flying normal types and put them in a pot, and left them to simmer for 3 hours you'd be left with pidove. This is me being nice, calling him medicore. E Teir
  5. JacobNinja


    Aug 5, 2012
    Taillow for B. I used to use it, it is definitely solid B, with STAB priority, pivot, 19 spe, brave bird STAB, and either a sweeper facade set or a scarf set.
  6. Bent1ey


    Feb 22, 2012
    Spearrow does get Drill Run so it gets better coverage than... Pidgey and Starly? I'm not sure if that makes it any less E though.
  7. blarajan

    blarajan Rest in Bling
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    VGC Co-Leader

    Aug 29, 2010
    Makes it a D imo
  8. macle

    macle formerly Bane. (Sunflora- add 50 spe)
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 21, 2008
    Updated with a lot of shit.

    Only 2 pokes discussed from my last post that hasn't been added are Tailow and Gothita. Please discuss them or i'll just move tailow to b and gothita to D.
  9. Celestavian

    Celestavian Let the fire consume me, let the courage flow through me
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Champion

    May 23, 2010
    Looks like your enter key is broken there!

    Tailow's Facade, with STAB and the status boost factored in, hits a terrifying 210 base power along with Guts. Every Steel-type in the tier lacks reliable recovery, and Facade just whallops on all of them, 3HKOing Eviolite Pawniard for starters. If you just spam U-turn and Facade the first half of the battle, everything will be softened up by the time Tailow is ready to sweep. Problem is, people keep using it wrong, spamming Brave Bird early on and staying in on Pawniard and other priority users and getting smashed. That's one of the main reasons why I myself don't think too highly of it, because I rarely see it used well. One time, I did see someone use it well though, and it rocked my world. Unfortunately, Tailow is revenged by every Choice Scarfer ever. It only hits 19 Speed, so a speed tie spells death for Tailow 50% of the time. It deserves B simply because Facade is so hard to switch into if you lack Bronzor, but even that doesn't like switching in too often.

    Gothita is simply outclassed. Elgyem is better at pretty much everything, what with its 19 Special Attack and Analytic making it very powerful. Gothita with Shadow Tag will only trap you in with its suckitude while Mienfoo U-turns out, Timburr lives through your Psychic and Paybacks you, and Croagunk Sucker Punches you. It certainly deserves D tier.
  10. Alfalfa


    Aug 31, 2012
    Skitty E rank? Skitty actually is not that bad. Have you tried Normalize? It should be D-rank.
  11. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

    Sep 26, 2012
    I am ok with Taillow at B. I personally still see it as a C mon, but i think hawkstar is right in that it just being used incorrectly. I'll probably try and fit it on a team at some point and give it ago, but it does have an absurdly powerful attack and the speed to back it up and make up for some of its frailty. Gothita w/o shadow tag is D at best like i said earlier. If it got it then everything else i said is a thing, though i still dont think it'd be A material.

    As for skitty, its just a slow meowth. giving everything STAB isnt really impressive especially when Misdreavus is everywhere and that stab is normal. like Meoth gets a "stab" bonus from technician and retains its coverage while also being significantly faster. other then that its plagued with horrid defenses which essentially force you into an eviolite (with a max of 15 atk this is a problem cause you dont want, you need, a life orb boost to do any sizable damage) set. Long story short its out classed by many other cats, competitively nonviable, significantly less cute than glameow and generally bad, which is why it was ranked E.

    I also would like to ask, if i could without sounding like a board nazi, for us to try and back up our statements with... really anything. a lot of us are just kinda saying "I like X, it should be Y" and thats not really the point of the thread. We're discussing and ranking the different mons in Little Cup based on viability, not on popularity.
  12. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 21, 2009
    This statement is significantly wrong.

    Anyway, some more mons on Delver's list that I randomly picked out:

    Cacnea - C Tier
    Cacnea is actually not that bad, it's just that there's often better grass types around. It has a sexy attack stat which can be made even more sexy with Swords Dance. Access to Sucker Punch makes up for crappy speed. Unfortunately it doesn't get STAB on S-Punch but on the bright side it's not fighting weak. It can also use Bullet Seed and Drain Punch to give it great coverage. If you really don't want to use Lileep or Ferroseed, it is a great check to water-types on sand teams. It can be a more offensive user of spikes aswell but I haven't tried that and probably wouldn't recommend it.

    Clamperl - B Tier
    Has anyone mentioned this yet? Anyway we all know the sheer power of DeepSeaTooth Clamperl and it is definitely a pokemon to fear. Unfortunately, it has a much harder time setting up than other shell smashers. If running Substitute to avoid Sucker Punch then its coverage is lackluster.

    Cubchoo - D Tier
    Often used by ladder players as part of a dreadful hail team, and it is very... meh. Half decent attacking stats, but just gets killed due to abysmal defenses, weakness to fighting moves and weakness Stealth Rock. Most Priority moves kill it easily.

    Shelmet - B Tier
    Good Bulky mon. Has just the right movepool to do it's job in Spikes, Recover and Acid Armor. One of the best Fighting-type checks in the game and one of the most reliable spikers.

    Slowpoke - B Tier
    Cool typing that gives it a nice resistance to fighting. Unfortunately it is also weak to Dark and Ghost. Regenerator is why it really shines though meaning it can last for a long time and check things throughout the battle. Due to a metagame shift, it isn't as useful as it used to be but is still a solid defensive mon.
  13. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 5, 2012
    Wait, is Scraggy's Fighting weakness seriously enough to prevent him from being S-Rank? Because seriously, Scraggy is an awesome sweeper with those awesome STABs and Dragon Dance and Moxie, it wrecks teams.

    Well, I agree with a good portion of these rankings. Hippopotas in B-Rank is well deserved since it does nothing outside of Sand Stream.

    Aipom for E-Rank. It's as bad in LC as Ambipom is in UU. Seriously, Fake Out is not a great move that allows you to get free damage on something; it's a very situational move that allows free switch-ins to something truly dangerous like Missy. Not to mention it's weak as dirt.

    Just wondering, where would Ponyta be at in this ranking? I'm leaning towards A-Rank since it's a strong attacker with decent coverage, but I'm not exactly sure.

    Lol. Is Solosis so bad in LC that it deserves E-Rank? It seems like a strong TR abuser; it has insane SpA like Abra and can do work the way Reun does in OU. It seems like a decent TR mon. What makes Solosis so bad that it has an E-Rank placement?
  14. thebrownie


    Oct 11, 2012
    Aside from the fact that the 3 biggest threats, mienfoo, murkrow and misdreavus checks or counters scraggy and that scraggy with one dragon dance can't outspeed a scarfed murkrow. It's pretty decent. It's just that it's weak to 3 of the most common threats in this meta. I haven't used it, but I've never been sweeped by scraggy cause I can just revenge kill with scarfkrow.

    That said, I can easily see it be in the same teir as drillbur, but it's definitely worse than mienfoo, murkow and misdreavus.

    Incidentally, anyone not running a mienfoo, murkrow and misdreavus core is probably putting themselves to a disadvantage.
  15. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

    Sep 26, 2012
    Just gunna go down the list:

    The ultimate decision on scraggy was that because it only had one set that was really viable, being its sweeping set, that there are so many common threats that can counter/check him, and that any competitively viable team will have multiple scraggy check, scraggy lacked the diversity of other S-ranked mons and the sweeping potential to over look that. The controversy of the placement revolves around whether or not you think changing the metagame around it makes it worthy of S rank. one side says that shift is why there are so many ways to beat it and thus make it A rank, while the other says the very fact there was a shift at all makes it S rank. Also, in reply to brownie's post comparing scraggy to Mienfoo / Murkrow / Missy is comparing apples to oranges / papayas / milky way bars. They all do different things and you cant really just say "X is better than y."

    Hippo does a lot more than just set up sand, for the record - it's one of the best physical walls in the teir.

    Aipom is unique in that it has (if im not mistaken) the 2nd strongest Fake Out in the teir behind meowth, and has a base attack stat that it can use with relatively good coverage. is it the most amazing pokemon ever? no. Will i be hardpressed to find a reason not to use meinfoo over it? Yes. But can it work without the planets alignment during the zenith of the sun? yeah, it really can. It requires a hell of a lot more tam support than other fake-outers, but its by no means E. I'd be willing to compromise and say D teir, cause C does sound sorta high.

    I ranted about the resident fire types in an earlier post and i think me and some one else agreed that ponyta is at least B. I know way back when, before the unbanning of missy/krow/gligar Ponyta was a sleeper, but tbh i hvent used her extensively in the current meta.

    TR is generally concidered gimmicky in any teir thats not the VGC. It requires a lot of team support and when its not up often your sweeper are just far too slow / frail to do anything impressive. LC is a super version of this gimmick in that its abusers that are even half way decent are few and far between. Cranidos, uhhh... solosis...azurill? maybe? all of which will crumble without trick room up. Its worth noting though that TR is a strategy with some merit, if not viability, and i think we as a community need to decide if "being good in trick room" is enough of a reason to keep something out of the E rank. Personally i think not.
  16. Good_Luck!


    Apr 18, 2011
    I'm backing up Delver's argument quoting myself:

    I agree that Aipom is D, Meowth is mediocre an does Aipom's job better. I have used it with success as a great Flying Gem Acrobatics lead OHKOing non-CS Mienfoo so I can say it's not entirely useless as, say, Pidove.

    Having used it more since I agreed with Delver on B rank for Ponyta, I would say I'm tempted to put it in A. But then I recognize one obvious flaw: Fire-typing. Even though Ponyta has the speed to compete with all the top tiers, the prominence of Stealth Rock, Sand and bulky Water-types (Chinchou specifically) makes Ponyta a little less viable than it would. Sure, it is the best answer to all the rising Grass-types, but against Foongus as a regenerator defensive pivot (meaning that it would switch often) or Lileep who has a SE STAB on it Ponyta can't do much.

    I'm also agreeing with all of Corkscrew's rankings, adding that Slowpoke's weakness to U-turn, Volt Switch, Murkrows, Misdreavus, Scraggys and its low speed mean that the only common Fighting-type it can wall is Timburr. So~ Slowpoke's utility has dimished in the current meta.

    Maybe I'm theorymoning but Skitty is the only pokemon that can paralyze both Sandshrew and Drilbur with Normalize Thunder Wave, a more reliable move than, say Body Slam, Glare or Stun Spore. That being said, it has a very small niche but not worthy enough to be higher than D. I mean, it sure looks cute, and it has the surprise factor, but loosing coverage is a real pain for it in this Meta.

    Skitty is not meant to be a bulky attacker so an eviolite is just a waste on it, it's meant to capitalize on Normalized STAB Sucker Punch which would potentially revenge kill Dark and Fighting-types who resists regular Sucker Punch (I'm thinking of Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, Croagunk, Murkrow and others who would easily outspeed and kill it without Sucker Punch; and all of these are relevant threats to the meta). It would be good for a revenge killer once Missy is dead. I'm not saying Skitty is OH SO GOOD but it has a VERY small niche that MAYBE could take it out of E and into D. Anyway, if I DESPERATLEY wanted to paralyze Sand Rushers I would definitely go with Cloud Nine Body Slam Lickitung and wait for the hax to kick in.

    Finally, for TR, I think that strategy is meant to be an offensive play as you have a timer on your speed. I can't say I have used it but having played against relatibly good Trick Room Teams (they didn't have Leftovers on Aipom, for example) I can see it's really difficult to pull of and very easy to outstall. Just one taunter (Misdreavus, Vullaby, Cottonee...) means TR is dead. I'm not against it, I'm just saying I'm yet to see a good user of TR. In my opinion, being excellent on Trick Room means D at much. The rest can go play with Sunkern.
  17. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 21, 2009
    Acrobatics Aipom is actually a cool gimmick to take out an unsuspecting fighting type especially as players think that Mienfoo is a good check. Other than that though, D seems suitable.

    Skitty would be able to paralyze Drilbur and Sandshrew if they didn't just KO it with Earthquake first. If you're that desperate to paralyze them then Stun Spore Cottonee would be the best at it.
  18. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome Banned deucer.

    Jul 16, 2012
    Nominating Axew For A tier:
    The Set I am talking about through out this post is mainly SubDD or DD in general

    Axew isn't bad,it is simply underused.Axew dosent need any support as eviolite makes it able to withstand stuff like Mienfoo HJKs,and With its raw attack and DD it dosent need hazard support to function and net KOs(But it is always nice to have hazards though.).Once It DDs nothing in LC Can avoid getting 2HKOd or even OHKOd(I was in a battle and a +1 Outrage OHKOd a what seemed to be a bulky mienfooo lead.),the only real poke in the top 5 that is a massive threat exept sand rush drillbur(at +1),the fact that it can combine the power that makes dieno populer and DD and bulk that make dratini populer(although It dosent have the ceartin stats that they have,it still combines them) and add superpower to the mix is badass.OVERALL Axew deserves A rank because :It requires little to no support,reaches perfect covrage in 2 moves,has the best physical set up move in the game,Can sweep with little to no trouble,can OHKO/2HKO EVREY Pokemon in LC at +1 exept Bronzor wich cant really do shit back.

    Proof that Axew can 2HKO Evreything exept bronzor wich cant do shit back.(not going to post 212 clacs for all LC pokes but using honkos metagame wide calc to see the top 10 things that take it the best):

    Hippopotas (LC Defensive)Outrage:50 - 61.53%/Superpower:34.61 - 42.3%
    Hippopotas (LC Lead) Outrage 52 - 64% Superpower 36 - 44%
    Phanpy (LC Utility) Outrage 53.57 - 64.28% Superpower 35.71 - 42.85%
    Slowpoke (LC Physically Defensive) Outrage 55.55 - 66.66% Superpower 18.51 - 22.22%
    Pineco (LC Support [Eviolite]) Outrage 54.16 - 66.66% Superpower 16.66 - 20.83%
    Vullaby (LC Defensive) Outrage 54.16 - 66.66% Superpower 37.5 - 45.83%
    Slowpoke (LC Trick Room Support) Outrage 55.55 - 66.66% Superpower 18.51 - 22.22%
    Onix (LC Support) Superpower 52.17 - 69.56% Outrage 39.13 - 52.17%
    Koffing (LC RestTalk) Outrage 56.52 - 69.56% Superpower 17.39 - 21.73%
    Shelmet (LC Support) Outrage 56.52 - 69.56% Superpower 17.39 - 21.73%

    *The Steel type calcs
    Ferroseed (LC Spiker) Superpower 81.81 - 100% Outrage 27.27 - 36.36%
    Magnemite (LC Bulky Attacker) Superpower 104.76 - 133.33% Outrage 38.09 - 47.61%

    And Missy takes much more than you think:
    Misdreavus (LC Calm Mind) Outrage 60 - 72% (Move 2) 0 - 0%
    Misdreavus (LC Defensive) Outrage 78.26 - 95.65% (Move 2) 0 - 0%
    Misdreavus (LC Bulky Attacker) Outrage 86.36 - 109.09% (Move 2) 0 - 0%
    Misdreavus (LC Nasty Plot) Outrage 127.27 - 154.54% (Move 2) 0 - 0%
  19. Chieliee


    Sep 26, 2010
    Axew doesn't have the viability of Mienfoo, nor the versatility of Murkrow, nor the great overall stats and movepool of Misdreavus.. It might be worth A tier (i haven't played lately so idk how good it is with superpower n stuff), but the S tier is reserved for mons that dominate the LC metagame. Axew doesn't.
  20. JacobNinja


    Aug 5, 2012
    superpower does not 2hko bronzor, white herb superpower 2hkos bronzor, and if you run white herb it can't set up
    edit: so it seems white herb axew also fails to 2hko bronzor
  21. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Jul 21, 2009
    +1 220 Atk Superpower vs. 220 HP / 68 Def Eviolite: 10-12 (40 - 48%)
    220 Atk Superpower vs. 220 HP / 68 Def Eviolite: 7-9 (28 - 36%)

    Eviolite Jolly Axew, which I believe to be the standard can't even 3HKO after a Dragon Dance.
    Life Orb Adamant only has a chance to 2HKO.

    Also, don't bother trying to get Axew into S-Tier, it's not happening. Maybe if you made more coherent posts about whether it should be A-Tier or not, people may be convinced, but seriously you will be wasting your time if you argue it being S-Tier.
  22. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome Banned deucer.

    Jul 16, 2012
    Ok Cork updating my OP And delting previous posts now but wierd,I calced it just yesterday(Lv5 calcs) and it said 2HKO im going to see on honko in like 10 min other than that thanks for calcing it i guess,I know its not going to be S tier I was maily going for A but then I got carried away .Axew for A tier y/y?
  23. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 21, 2009
    Maybe my calc was a little off, but even if it did say it 2HKOd you would have to take into account the attack drop you get from Superpower.

    Personally, I disagree with Axew being A tier. Whilst it is a good pokemon, the lack of reliable moves is annoying. Dual Chop/Dragon Claw aren't that powerful, whilst Outrage as we all know can have massive consequences. BW2 gave it a nice coverage move in Superpower but lowering your attack makes it seem like setting up was a waste of time. Afaik, the only other coverage moves it has are X-Scissor, (which is a waste of time as it doesn't provide any additional coverage and a STAB Outrage does more than a Super Effective X-Scissor) Return, (no extra coverage) and Aqua Tail (which I can't think of anything that it's worth using for except like Rock/Steel types which are rare).

    Basically, it's movepool is too crappy to be A-Tier material for me.
  24. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome Banned deucer.

    Jul 16, 2012
    Its like your not looking at the positive parts to Axew, Look at that mega post I posted you really only ever use superpower for the 2 viable steels in the meta and onix if you dont want to risk the damage roll.(Bronzor is shit literaly all you need to do to shit on it is run Sub over dual chop.) honestly Dragon/Fighting coverage is unresisted in LC and Outrage always hurts even a lot of steels get dented by it,and movepool dosent matter much in a tier were Dragon STAB is resisted by only 2 decently viable mons in LC honestly the discription for A tier is:"A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits." evreything on that fits axew it sweeps through 97% of the tier alone by its STAB move,Requires little to no support,and has very few flaws(SubPar movepool(not really ),and outsped by Sand Rush Drilburr even at +1) and has a lot of outstanding traits that outshine those 2 (really 1) flaw(s).
  25. Good_Luck!


    Apr 18, 2011
    Honkalculator 4000 for +1 Atk Axew vs Standard Eviolite Bronzor:

    +1 220 Atk (custom) Superpower vs. 220 HP / 68 Def Eviolite (custom): 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    This doesn't count the Atk drop after Superpower so it won't 2HKO ever. Of course, Outrage does even less damage, so if you switch in Bronzor after it has killed something with Outrage, you'll be locked into it dealing even less damage than it would.

    After the Superpower drop:

    220 Atk (custom) Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite (custom): 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    So~ let's asume 25 HP for Bronzor (it's the standard Smogon set) assuming max damage:

    SR damage = 1HP
    Superpower damage at +1= 12HP
    Superpower damage at 0 = 10HP
    Superpower damage at -1= 8 HP

    1+12+10+8 = 31. Then you are at -2 Atk having just defeated Bronzor

    Let's see what Bronzor can do as it's not very good to be sitting there just watching. Its common moves are HP Ice, Psychic, Earthquake, Flash Cannon or Gyro Ball, right?

    4- SpA (custom) Hidden Power Ice vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite (custom): 6-8 (27.27 - 36.36%) -- 61.55% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    4- SpA (custom) Psychic vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite (custom): 6-7 (27.27 - 31.81%) -- 4.05% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    4- SpA (custom) Flash Cannon vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite (custom): 6-7 (27.27 - 31.81%) -- 4.05% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Eviolite (custom): 5-6 (22.72 - 27.27%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 Atk (custom) Gyro Ball (66 BP) vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Eviolite (custom): 4-6 (18.18 - 27.27%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
    (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6)

    Sure, Bronzor won't EVER KO Axew; but now you are open to priorities or bulky 'mons who can withstand a -2 Outrage or Superpower, like Mienfoo or Croagunk or Misdreavus or... well, you get the point.

    Or maybe the smart player hits Axew with a damage of LEAST of 4HP while setting up. If Bronzor, a pokemon with pitiful offensive presence, can do 4HP damage, surely you see this would likely happen.

    Now let's see what outspeeds you at +1:

    Common Scarfed 'mons: Chinchou (who runs Ice Beam), Misdreavus, Murkrow, Cranidos (I've seen it a lot recently)

    Non-choiced: Drilbur and Sandshrew on sand.

    Priority users: Prankster Cottonee with Cotton Guard/Stun Spore, Prankster Murkrow with FeatherDance (I agree, not so common), Prankster Riolu with Copycat for Outrage, Fake Out+Vacuum Wave Croagunk, Sucker Punch users, Mach Punch, Snover with Ice Shard.

    Now, what can a player do against a +1 Axew? Bulky Misdreavus can Burn it, common walls can Thunder Wave or Toxic it. Not in the switch but get a Physical wall in after it has KOed something and use a status move.

    Sure, you can say Axew is a cleaner/sweeper but let me say that Scraggy is better with recovery on Drain Punch, doesn't rely on a move that neutralizes its boosts to destroy its counters, it won't be locked in a move that may confuse itself and has more bulk (both in HP and Defensive stats) to setup easier.

    And even more: it has an ability that stops paralysis or burns (even toxic) to ruin the fun.

    Scraggy requires little to no support, reaches near perfect coverage with just two moves, and perfect with a coverage move (Zen Headbutt for Croagunk, the only 'mon that resists Drk+Ftg in LC), has the best physical set up move in the game, can sweep with little to no problem.

    The last sentence, as we've seen its not true for Axew, and its not true for Scraggy.

    They're both susceptible to Revenge Killing except for one fact: Drain Punch on Scraggy lets it barely avoid some KO's.

    Also, Deino is not popular and Eviolite Mienfoo is Bulky enough to survive a +1 Outrage at full health, so it wasn't a Bulkyfoo the one you OHKOed:

    From Axew at +1:

    +1 220 Atk (custom) Outrage vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite (custom): 15-18 (71.42 - 85.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I'm not against Axew, but your arguments for it to be S-rank are wrong. Now for A-tier, Scraggy does the same job better and its A, so, logic says, Axew, being inferior, would be a lesser Rank.


    In my opinion, it's not as good as Scraggy because it relies on a move that looses its boosts to past its checks.

    Edit: Ninja'd ¬¬, that's what I get for being so damn boring.
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