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#littlecup Teambuilding Sessions

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Elevator Music, Aug 21, 2012.

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  1. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Update: the teambuilding session will start in approximately two hours from now! (It is currently 7:02 EDT.)
  2. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    Log: http://pastebin.com/SYP6Hk0Q

    Synopsis: We decided to base a team around Dratini. RestTalk Dratini (with Marvel Scale, Dragon Dance, and Outrage) is a relatively unused Pokemon in LC, but it has a lot of merit. With a resistance to Water-, Grass-, and Fire-type attacks and decent bulk with Eviolite, Dratini is comfortable setting up on many common Pokemon in LC, such as Chinchou, Staryu, (it helps that Water-types don't run Ice attacks commonly in LC), Shroomish, Lileep, Foongus, Bronzor, many variants of Croagunk, Natu, etc. Keeping that in mind, our goal was to pick teammates that can lure out at least a few of those Pokemon for Dratini, while also covering our team from the threats Dratini can't handle.

    The first teammate suggested was Magnemite. Magnemite lures in Chinchou (who walls it completely) and Fire-types that Dratini can set up on, but it also traps Ferroseed who could potentially be a pain for Dratini. It also provides us with a good check to Murkrow and Snover, both of whom are big threats (Snover to any team with Dratini in particular). Because Magnemite would be a check to these two Pokemon, we chose to go with a bulky variant as opposed to a Scarf or Life Orb one, allowing it to tank Blizzards and other attacks better.

    Magnemite makes a good partner, but it immediately opens us up to weaknesses against Fighting-types, particularly Mienfoo (who can Knock Off Dratini's Eviolite or blast it with Hi Jump Kick). There were a couple of suggestions here, such as Murkrow, Abra, Misdreavus, Natu, Mantyke, or Woobat. However, we ended up choosing Larvesta. Larvesta further helps us against Snover, but it's also a fantastic check to Mienfoo and other Fighting-types due to its Flame Body ability. It also has good synergy with Magnemite, as the two can switch back and forth with Volt Switch and U-turn, and they help threaten each other's checks. Those moves also give Dratini lots of opportunities to come in unscathed.

    Even though Magnemite for the most part checks Murkrow, the team at this point is still weak to Murkrow's mixed set (Brave Bird/Heat Wave/Sucker Punch/Hidden Power Grass or Dark Pulse @ Life Orb). It also still has slight problems with Scraggy, and to an extent Timburr, as if Scraggy sets up a Dragon Dance it can usually muscle its way past Larvesta, especially so since the team lacks a spinner at this point. Archen was suggested to help with Murkrow, and also set up Stealth Rock and further check Fighting-types. Croagunk was also suggested to help with Fighting-types, however it only made the Murkrow situation worse, and most Scraggy run Zen Headbutt now anyways. After a while, Tirtouga was suggested. Tirtouga helps out a lot more against Murkrow, only fearing the rare Hidden Power Grass, and can set up Stealth Rock. It also lures in Grass-types and Chinchou for the rest of the team. We decided on a set of Stealth Rock, Scald, Rock Slide, and Knock Off, as that best supported Dratini and the rest of the team.

    At this point, the team still struggles against Scraggy, and has problems against Fighting-types that carry Rock-type attacks, although this is usually limited to Mienfoo (particularly Life Orb variants). On top of that, it lacks a reliable way of dealing with Drilbur. It also lacks a way of removing or dealing with Stealth Rock, which is a huge problem since Larvesta is currently the team's only means of dealing with Fighting-types at all. Starting by looking at that problem, the team's options were Staryu, Drilbur, or Natu. Natu was immediately scratched from this list, as it only made our problems against Scraggy and Drilbur worse. Eventually, we decided upon Staryu would be the best choice, as it has excellent synergy with Dratini (and Larvesta). Croagunk was also picked, because it was a good check against Life Orb Mienfoo and could help against Scraggy, and had Fake Out and other priority to help against Drilbur. Croagunk also gave us a switchin to Misdreavus, a threat that had been ignored until now.

    This is where the team ran in to major problems trying to cover everything. With the lineup of Dratini/Magnemite/Larvesta/Tirtouga/Staryu/Croagunk, there was still decently big weakness to both Scraggy and Drilbur. Most Scraggy run Zen Headbutt specifically for Croagunk, meaning it was only a shaky check at best, and Scraggy could easily set up against Magnemite, Tirtouga, or Staryu. Drilbur posed similar problems, as the team lacked any means of switching into it but had three weaknesses to Earthquake that Drilbur could exploit. The tricky part about this is that there isn't anything that can reliably switch into both Drilbur and Scraggy. We toyed with the idea of running Foongus, but that didn't help enough against either Pokemon. Koffing was also an option, but wasn't picked either. Looking at just Pokemon that could check Scraggy, we thought it might be a good idea to switch Larvesta with Shelmet. That also gave us the option of removing Staryu, since Rapid Spin was no longer 100% necessary, but Shelmet also requires some Rapid Spin support, so we kept Staryu.

    Now that Scraggy was no longer an issue, the team only really needed a reliable way of shutting down Drilbur. We thought about switching Croagunk out for a Pokemon that could do that, however then we were left scared of Life Orb Mienfoo and Misdreavus again. Magnemite seemed like the most replaceable Pokemon at the time. We knew that if we replaced it, we'd also need something that could check opposing Murkrow though, since we didn't want that duty to fall solely on Tirtouga (for fear of facing Hidden Power Grass Murkrow). SubRoost Murkrow was suggested, as it could use Sucker Punch to check Drilbur, and could also be a good enough secondary check to opposing Murkrow. To further help out against Drilbur, we then replaced Knock Off on Tirtouga with Aqua Jet, giving us three Pokemon with priority to wear it down.

    We weren't done yet. With a lineup of Dratini/Tirtouga/Shelmet/Staryu/Croagunk/Murkrow, the team had problems with opposing Magnemite. Dratini was our only Pokemon that could switch into Thunderbolt and Volt Switch, but that got eaten alive by Flash Cannon. Furthermore, since we removed both Magnemite and Larvesta, the team lacked a switch-in to Snover. To fix this, we figured it would be best if we put Magnemite back in, but took Tirtouga out. This made the team a little bit weaker to Murkrow, and also Drilbur, but gave us a way of dealing with opposing Magnemite and Snover. Opposing Magnemite (especially Scarf variants) would be easy for Magnemite to trap and kill, and at least we had a Pokemon that could tank Blizzard and Giga Drain now. After deliberation, we removed Shelmet for Lileep, who could be a decent backup check to both Murkrow and Drilbur. Now Staryu definitely wasn't necessary for the team, but it was still kept on because of how well it supported Dratini. This still left the team in a pickle though, as it once again had problems with Scraggy. Ultimately, we decided a good enough fix would be to change Murkrow's set to a Choice Scarf set that could easily revenge KO Scraggy, as well as a safety net against other sweepers that we missed. Finalized as Dratini/Magnemite/Lileep/Staryu/Croagunk/Murkrow, the team seems solid, as we finally have all the big threats covered, even though it still requires some careful play around Scraggy and Drilbur.

    Team: http://pastebin.com/EyuEtLww
    Importable version (open)
    Dratini @ Eviolite
    Trait: Marvel Scale
    Level: 5
    EVs: 108 HP / 4 Atk / 76 Def / 156 SDef / 116 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Magnemite @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    Level: 5
    EVs: 240 SAtk / 156 HP / 36 Def / 76 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Magnet Rise
    - Volt Switch
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Lileep @ Eviolite
    Trait: Storm Drain
    Level: 5
    EVs: 228 HP / 220 Def / 60 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - AncientPower
    - Stealth Rock
    - Recover

    Staryu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Level: 5
    EVs: 116 HP / 116 SAtk / 236 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Recover
    - Rapid Spin

    Croagunk @ Eviolite
    Trait: Dry Skin
    Level: 5
    EVs: 212 HP / 28 Atk / 36 Def / 108 SAtk / 116 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Drain Punch
    - Dark Pulse
    - Vacuum Wave

    Murkrow @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Insomnia
    Level: 5
    EVs: 240 Atk / 80 SAtk / 188 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Heat Wave
    - Sucker Punch
    - Hidden Power [Grass]


    At this point, people can playtest the team and/or rate it and suggest possible changes. What do you guys think of the team as of now?
  3. Lord Moet II

    Lord Moet II
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    Im not familiar with lc evs but it looks like starmie is missing some? Croagunk too.
  4. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    Yea, at level 5 you can't always use all 508 EVs, because 4 EVs doesn't always equal one stat point. You can read more about that here.
  5. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    At this point everyone, the IRC logs and detailed summary of the session have been included in the post. After you read these tools, we would like you all to rate the team as is, and suggest changes and such to the team! That's for everyone who wasn't involved with the process, and even for people that were. We'd like to see your thoughts about it, and we'll address every rate that gets posted! Do you like the team? See any problems? Anything you might change? There's a ton of suggestions worth making.

    Also, we'd like your opinions on our first teambuilding session. This was our first one so we'd love to improve how it went for our future sessions.
  6. Gengan

    Gengan

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    My only opinion is that we slow down just a bit for people who have a hard time keeping up, which is why I had to leave at the beginning. I know we have a lot of people who really wanna help, but so many talking at one time can get confusing.
  7. KingTorterraXIV

    KingTorterraXIV

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    I agree with Gengan, it went by really fast, and it felt like only blarajan's, em's, and prem's idea's were being heard most of the time in my opinion to be honest. (I know you guys run the thing, but there was a lot of people there too.)It started to slowed down after blarajan had to leave, then it really did near like the end.

    I've tested the team a little on Showdown, and it seems to work OK, just that I remember that an idea of the team was to lure in Fire, Water and like Grass types to let Dratini set up and stuff. It works decently, execpt for Water Types, cause a lot of them I've battled always have Ice Beam, and Marvel Scale doesn't help it's SpD. But I'm a person that doesn't use Dratini that often, so whatever. Otherwise it works pretty good. :)
  8. Jukain

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    It was really fun, I learned a lot during it as well. Considering I had little idea how to play Little Cup previously, I learned about a lot of the main threats of the metagame and what the team needed to deal with. It did go pretty fast, but I was able to keep up okay. Oh and blara I think was the one who really kept everything moving foward, great job with that.
  9. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I've not used the team myself, but I have played against someone using it. My main criticism was that it wasn't really that hard to spam HJK with my Mienfoo, especially once I'd knocked off Croagunk's eviolite. I was using an eviolite version but I can imagine Life Orb Mienfoo being a pain to switch into.

    The only annoying thing is the lack of euro-friendly times, but we have already discussed that already so meh.
  10. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    For anyone who hasn't seen the topic in #littlecup, another teambuilding session will be held tomorrow (Thursday, August 30) at 10 PM EDT.
  11. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    I'll try to be there, sounds very interesting.
  12. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    I know we're just about to get ready for the next session, but this is valid and I wanted to respond to it. Having used the team a bit myself, I completely agree. Life Orb Mienfoo can 2HKO Croagunk with Hi Jump Kick, so perhaps we should add more bulk to Croagunk or modify the team to better deal with it?
  13. Rowan

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    Well I know you were planning on using Larvesta before, and that can take a hjk from a LO Mienfoo. You still have Staryu on the team for rapid spinning. As I said, I haven't actually played with the team, but Larvesta could fulfill a similar role as Magnemite does, as it can switch into Snover, and it does well against most steel types. Of course, you won't have the certainty of removing steel types with Magnemite, but most members of the team can handle them, considering no steel has reliable recovery.

    However, this leaves you even more weak to Murkrow. At best, you have a semi-reliable check in Lileep. Lileep can do pretty well against MixKrow in my experience, as Mixkrow doesn't often carry recovery, but SubRoost is still going to mess this team up.
  14. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    The team also gets rolled by Timburr, as it can come in and set up with ease against Lileep, Gunk, and Krow locked into anything but BB, then wreck the rest of the team thanks to its special bulk. I think putting Larvesta back in over Lileep takes care of the fighting types and adds an excellent Scraggy counter, but it also makes the team more vulnerable to Krow and Drilbur. To deal with that problem, I think we should put defensive Tirtouga over Magnemite again. Because Larvesta is on the team now, we aren't as worried about opposing Magnemite or Snover, so getting rid of our own Magnemite isn't a big deal. Mixkrow is still annoying if it carries HP Grass, but between Tirtouga, Magnemite, and Gunk's Priority I don't think it would be difficult to wear down.
  15. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    The problem with using Larvesta to check LO Mienfoo is that a lot of them run Stone Edge, so it won't really work. If you do want to replace something, Staryu is probably the most replaceable Pokemon. Rapid Spin support is hardly necessary for this team, and even though Staryu has cool synergy with Dratini, if you can find a replacement that covers the team's weaknesses, that's much more important.
  16. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    Well the best and easiest way to deal with LO Mienfoo is to have Misdreavus, but just slapping Missy on the team doesn't help deal with Scraggy, Timburr, or Murkrow. Maybe give Gunk some more physical bulk in addition to my other changes so it can take on LO Foo more easily?
  17. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    The synopsis will be up soon.

    Log: http://pastebin.com/AW9pJFNT

    This team we built around Eviolite Snover, who we thought was a cool Pokemon that fares well against sand teams and defensive teams. One aspect of this team I find fun is that for the most part, it can be customized however you want it to be. If you'd rather run Mild on Snover (and give it 36 Speed EVs), do so! If you aren't worried about Shelmet getting crit, you can give it Overcoat so it can function in hail better! If you'd rather run a different EV spread on Archen or Croagunk, you can! There are lots of little things that can be changed about this team to fit the player.

    Synopsis: We started this team with the choice of Snover, a notable presence in the LC metagame due to its ability to remove sand (the only other permanent weather). After choosing Snover, we decided to run an Eviolite version instead of the more common Scarf set. This allows Snover to switch into Water-types and put a lot of pressure on defensive teams, at the cost of some utility against offensive teams. To partner with Snover, we immediately opted to run Staryu with it. Staryu can switch into the Fire-types that threaten Snover, and can spin away Stealth Rock, which otherwise really hampers Snover. On the other hand, Snover can take on many of Staryu's checks (such as Chinchou and Shroomish), who provide it with opportunities to spam Blizzard and Giga Drain.

    This core is weak to Murkrow though, and it will also have problems with Fighting-types. We turned discussion towards including teammates that can help with these two issues, starting with switch-ins to Fighting-types. While there were many suggestions on possible teammates, including Foongus, Misdreavus, and Shelmet, we couldn't decide on a Fighting check until we knew we have Murkrow covered. To cover Murkrow, Archen was suggested, because unlike other Murkrow checks it did not aggravate our weakness to Fighting-types. We decided on a bulky set that could easily tank LO Brave Birds from Murkrow, even in hail.

    When looking at Pokemon that can switch in to Fighting-types, what that really means is something to check each of the four: Scraggy, Mienfoo, Croagunk, and Timburr. The latter three can generally all be handled by the same Pokemon, but Scraggy is usually a Pokemon that requires something else (it can muscle past the usual Fighting-type checks with Crunch and/or Zen Headbutt, and is not as easily shut down by status due to Shed Skin). Looking at the current team of Snover/Staryu/Archen, Mienfoo was suggested to deal with Scraggy. It also provided the team with U-turn support to get Archen and Snover in safely.

    Even with Mienfoo, the team still has problems with the other three common Fighting-types. Additionally, both Larvesta and Magnemite are also large threats to the current four Pokemon, and the team also lacks a reliable way to shut down Misdreavus. The last two Pokemon needed to be able to handle those four things, which is somewhat tricky. Houndour way suggested for Larvesta and Misdreavus, but it would be a poor addition because it handles neither all that well and makes Mienfoo/Croagunk/Timburr all the harder to handle. Frillish was then suggested as a means of getting around Fighting-types and Larvesta. Then, both Chinchou and Numel were suggested to deal with Magnemite, and help with Misdreavus. We decided to go with Stockpile Numel, as it also gave the team an easy way to win once Numel's counters were removed (which Snover can help to do). Looking at those 6, Timburr was still an issue, and Misdreavus might still be problematic. We decided to drop Frillish and use a Pokemon that could help with those Pokemon (and other Fighting-types) instead.

    In looking for a Pokemon that could do that, it came to our attention that the team was also weak to Tirtouga (and other Shell Smash Pokemon). To deal with this and the above issue, we decided to drop Mienfoo and add in Shelmet and Croagunk. Croagunk can switch in on almost any move that Tirtouga has (except the rare Earthquake) and threaten it out. It also acts as a check to Mienfoo. Shelmet is one of the most effective Scraggy counters, being able to come in on the standard set, outpace its Dragon Dance boosts with Acid Armor, and scare Scraggy out with Bug Buzz while recovering off damage. It can easily do the same thing to Timburr, and can shrug off Croagunk and Mienfoo's hits while stalling them out. This solidified the lineup at Snover/Staryu/Archen/Shelmet/Numel/Croagunk, which looks to be a fun and quirky—yet also effective—team.

    Team: http://pastebin.com/butrFq5n
    Importable version (open)
    Snover @ Eviolite
    Trait: Snow Warning
    Level: 5
    EVs: 180 Atk / 180 SAtk / 36 Def / 36 SDef / 36 HP
    Quiet Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Shard
    - Protect

    Staryu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Level: 5
    EVs: 116 HP / 156 SAtk / 236 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Recover
    - Rapid Spin

    Archen @ Eviolite
    Trait: Defeatist
    Level: 5
    EVs: 236 HP / 100 Atk / 76 Def / 76 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Acrobatics
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock

    Shelmet @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shell Armor
    Level: 5
    EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 236 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Acid Armor
    - Recover
    - Spikes
    - Bug Buzz

    Numel @ Eviolite
    Trait: Simple
    Level: 5
    EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 156 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Stockpile
    - Lava Plume

    Croagunk @ Eviolite
    Trait: Dry Skin
    Level: 5
    EVs: 212 HP / 28 Atk / 116 Def / 28 SAtk / 116 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    - Vacuum Wave
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sucker Punch
    - Drain Punch


    Again, this is the part where you guys playtest the team or critique it. We'd love to hear your opinions of the team. We'd also like feedback on how this session went.

    Notes: Croagunk's EV spread seems pretty awful at the moment. I just kind of haphazardly threw it together. If someone has an alternate spread that functions better, post and let us know!
  18. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    For the record, just because a new team was made does not mean we can't discuss older teams, just clarify which team you're discussing.

    I'm thinking on the first team, maybe Life Orb Diglett > Staryu in order to trap problem Pokemon such as Life Orb Mienfoo, +0 Timburr, and Larvesta.
  19. KingTorterraXIV

    KingTorterraXIV

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    So I played with it a little bit, and Croagunk doesn't work very well for damaging other things besides Missy. It really bulky, but it doesn't do enough damage with it's priority moves that really helps. Maybe a different spread would work, but it just doesn't do that much damage ):

    I love Stockpile Numel though, it does exactly what we thought it would do, check Nasty Plot Missy.
  20. Elevator Music

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    The synopsis of yesterday's session is up.
  21. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Team 2: Croagunk needs major patching up, it can't do much. Maybe we should use Scraggy instead? It's a lot stronger and doesn't require a mixed set.
  22. Rowan

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    Then Shell Smashers would completely rape this team as 4/5 of them resist the only other priority the team has. The EV spread should just be made more offensive imo, since you already have Shelmet to check fighters so we don't need that much physical bulk. Just move some Defense EVs into Attack or Ap. Attack. We'll still want Special Defense EVs to check Misdreavus.
    EDIT: I'm running 212 HP / 28 Atk / 36 Def / 108 SpA / 116 SpD with a Quiet Nature. I dunno if this helps or not tbh. I'm not sure if the extra point should go in Atk or SpAtk, I just don't think the defense is very useful.
  23. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Well, it got worse. I don't know if it's me or the team, but I just lost to a noob's team with T2. If it's me, well then. But if it's the team, then we have a serious problem. That was the most embarrassing moment of my life. He swept me with a fucking Chinchou >.<
  24. Rowan

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    The team doesn't have a problem with Chinchou. Snover switches in on everything it has, and Croagunk has Dry Skin and can usually serve as a pretty solid check to Chou.
  25. Gengan

    Gengan

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    But after Snover dies (and the fact that I dropped Croagunk), it kills the rest.
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