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Announcement LOOK -> XY OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - SWAG [SWAGGER BANNED TO UBERS]<- LOOK

Discussion in 'Victory Road' started by Haunter, Mar 15, 2014.

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  1. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    The OU Council, in the process of nerfing the strategy known as SwagPlay, has decided to suspect test the move Swagger.

    This time, you'll have to qualify on just one ladder, OU (Suspect Test), that is being implemented right now. In order to be eligible to vote, you'll have to achieve an ELO rating of 1850, with a deviation of 50 or less on said ladder. Keep in mind that the aforementioned requirements are just provisional. We might lower the rating requirement according to the results of the first week of laddering.

    The suspect test will last exactly 2 weeks starting from tomorrow.

    Once you qualify, be sure to take a screenshot (including both the rating, deviation, and your name at the top right corner of the showdown window) and keep it until the identification thread is posted.

    The suspect discussion is gonna take place in this forum, but everyone is invited to take part into this test, regardless of whether they have posting privileges in Victory Road or not. Obviously, the voter identification thread will be posted in the general OU forum, so that everyone, even those who don't have access to this forum, can identify their accounts.

    Remember to abuse the move Swagger, and the SwagPlay strategy to the fullest extent.

    If you have any question regarding this suspect test, then feel free to private message one of: Aldaron, McMeghan, M Dragon, Nachos and myself.

    In order to get access to this forum, please follow the instructions contained in this thread.

    I really don't need to stress this any more, but remember to keep the tone of your messages civil. Access to this forum can be lost even if you are a badgeholder.

    Good luck everybody (you'll really need it this time) and have fun on the ladder!

    EDIT: due to ELO taking too much time for the ladder to inflate, the new requirement is a rating of 2700 COIL.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  2. Doughboy

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    Grabbing the very first reply to let everyone know that it has been shown empirically that swagger does gain more legitimate wins than illegitimate ones when used on the OU ladder; as shown by migetno1 here. I think the most telling piece of evidence he had was his table about swagger probabilities.

    [​IMG]

    (edit by Zarel: to clarify, "Cum" in this table is short for "Cumulative")

    The important thing to note is not the chance to hit yourself every turn, but the chance to hit yourself at least once. The chance for the SwagPlay user to get at least one Substitute up is really in his favor unless you can get the target below 25% on your first turn in.

    Whether or not you care about tournament play, this is still something that affects the ladder on Pokemon Showdown negatively to a great extent. People getting decently high on the ladder and wasting people's time / getting people angry on the ladder because swagplay draws out games / takes the competitive fun out of the game is not something that should be condoned. Take a look at the angry people in the logs of migneto1's post to see what I mean.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2014
  3. reyscarface

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    Regardless of how hilarious or not you think a Swagger test is, refrain from posting dumb shit in this thread, thank you.
  4. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    [Question: Does discussion takes place here, or in another thread? Please move my post if this is the wrong place to be posting it.]

    Personally, I think banning Swagger heavily deals with what kind of a metagame you are seeking to create. Conservative players probably don't want to ban it because it /technically/ isn't broken by itself. It's a coinflip, really, for both players. It's not that different from a 50 / 50 (at least, when it comes to only Swagger).

    However, Liberal players will probably want to ban it because, while it's not broken, it's unhealthy and contributes to almost nothing but un-competitive-ness.

    That being said, I think Klefki is the real issue here. Klefki resists Extreme Speed and Brave Bird, which are huge boons imo. Sableye, Liepard, and Thundurus-I aren't nearly as good at abusing Swagger as Klefki is -- note that the aforementioned users are weak to Extreme Speed and Brave Bird (well, Thund resists, but Rocks and frailness). I think banning just Klefki would fix everything; however, I can see where the council would want to just ban Swagger.

    I've always been a Conservative player; however, when it comes to Swagger, I'm just really not sure. While I don't like not banning anything unless it's broken, it's almost 100% that Swagger isn't healthy for the metagame at all -- and I think the "diversity' it creates isn't the good kind.

    I'm stumped as to what I think I should do. I thought I'd share my view to see if others agree, or maybe that it'd help them.
    Enki, Aaron's Aron, New Light and 7 others like this.
  5. Tesung

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    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-2890 Here is a replay of my own that I think demonstrates why it should be banned. That is supposed to be sd terrakion, but I rebuilt the team quickly on my phone and accidentally used swagger. I had a horrible matchup and had little to no chance in this game. However, because of swagger, I had a very ligitimate chance that came down to me being outplayed in the end. Swagger is not a viable strategy in the sense that it is worth it over the long run to use. However, it allows people who are either worse or in losing positions to come back for no reason.
    Karxrida, New Light, GLink and 3 others like this.
  6. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Banning Klefki is definitely not the solution here. Klefki may be a huge contributor to the problem, but it's not the 'end all be all' for Swagger teams. Yes, it resists priority, but can struggle to do much to notable Swagger stops in Chansey, Xatu, and Gliscor, which Taunt Sableye, Thunderbolt Thundurus-I, and Leech Seed / Encore / whatever Whimsicott are all capable of at least pressuring, so Klefki still has its fair share of relative flaws.

    There is also the fact that Prankster Swagger easily forces the coinflip on almost everything. As Doughboy said, the chances to get away with this kind of luck happens more often than not. It's not like Prankster Swagger is the hardest thing to beat in the world, nor is it even consistent most of the time, but it is very difficult to rightfully prepare for it without resorting to highly impractical methods, at which point you'd probably feel like you're facing Double Team all over again.

    Never mind SwagPlay, Prankster Swagger itself can be abused in so many ways, usually in the form of Thunder Wave or Substitute, but there are more possibilities than that, such as Thundurus-I using it to grab a free Nasty Plot out of nowhere when it otherwise shouldn't have, Whimsicott can start the most annoying SubSeed chain in existance that even Grass-types have difficulty stopping, and of course Ditto. And it's not like Prankster Swagger itself can be stopped by just one Pokemon; as I have mentioned prior, Chansey, Xatu, and Gliscor can be dealt with in some manner, and even some seemingly hard stops such as Sylveon and Own Tempo Avalugg can be adjusted in a relatively quick snap like Flash Cannon Klefki, Gothitelle, or perhaps Destiny Bond Mega Banette. Prankster Swagger can adapt to the meta much more easily than the meta can adapt to it, which is already saying quite a lot for a strategy that primarily relies on random possibilities to win.

    Show Hide
    I admit it is a particularly hilarious way to expose Aegislash in its Blade Forme without it actually attacking while utterly murdering itself, but that is pretty much the only notable niche Swagger has. That said, it is a pretty good way to avoid being Pursuit trapped by Aegislash if you're that desperate, but Prankster Swagger on the other hand is not on the same league.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  7. PDC

    PDC don't you know my nigga bkc fucking kidnap kids?
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    swagplay is literally the most retarded strategy in the whole game. it is skill-less and swagger in not any sort of legitimate strategy. when people can use this in actual tournaments and win, that shows just how bad its got. it is not a valid strategy and i don't see the point of keeping something like this in the metagame, which only makes it more toxic. prankster is fine, but swagger is complete bullshit and a farce strategy which is only around for the sake of people thinking its dumb to ban a move, which its clearly not. i don't see the point of keeping it around at all if it adds even the slightest bit of luck in the game. this is literally the worse strategy i have ever come across, hell, its even worse than baton pass because at least you can have a bit of fun with that type of team. i don't see how anybody could have fun using swagplay.

    ban this stupid shit.
  8. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    This replay shows what a good SwagPlay team looks like and the added benefits of using Swagger in conjunction with scarf-Ditto. Not only you can rely on the luck provided by confusion (which didn't actually infulence the outcome of this game), but you can also abuse the +2 Atk for your own sweeping purposes. Credit to JabbaTheGriffin for the team.
  9. JabbaTheGriffin

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    On IRC we compared swagplay to SV Garchomp. Like Garchomp is a good Pokemon that occasionally dodges attacks, swagplay used properly is a good strategy that can also completely bullshit your opponent if need be (far more reliably than acceptable luck like fishing for a crit or whatnot). Sure, you can just throw together 3-4 swagplayers on a team, lead with one, and just start fishing for luck, but that isn't using the strategy to its fullest potential. Your swagplayers should be used cautiously. Look for spots to get a free sub and that original coinflip turns into your opponent needing to get lucky or find places where you can give yourself 2 win conditions: your opp hitting themselves and, if they don't, using their boosts against them (like the above replay shows). Swagplay is bullshit. Swagplay when used properly is even worse. Let's get this shit out of the game.
    shnen, New Light, Chou Toshio and 7 others like this.
  10. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I think "Swag-Play" teams are mainly effective because of the hazards they use to punish switching. Otherwise, there isn't anything stopping switching around infinitely until Swagger runs out of PP. The Pokemon that allow these hazards to go down with unmatched efficacy are the Deoxys-formes, especially Deoxys-D, due to their access to Taunt and great Speed.

    What I am leading to is this: Would Swag-Play teams work even nearly as well as they currently do without these two hazard setters at their disposal? I personally do not think they would, and the fact that SwagPlay has even a footing in the tournament scene should be a testament to how broken they really are.
    Pyritie, Safes and Windsong like this.
  11. Windsong

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    This.

    Deo-D and Deo-S are the problem mons. Not the things with Swagger and Foul Play. Those two simply allow hazards to get stacked too easily whilst keeping momentum and stopping Defoggers (not to mention Deo-S also having that ridiculous potential offensive presence with the absurdly good offensive movepool it has going). These guys are just as much of an issue as they were in BW.

    Really hoping that we can switch this test from Swagger to actually testing the broken thing, or at least suspect Deo-S/D in addition to this absolutely hilarious Swagger suspecting.

    I mean yes I think SwagPlay is just as stupid as the next person thinks it is, but it isn't the problem we're making it out to be and something else (Deo-S/D) is. I would say that there is probably grounds to ban Swagger on grounds of it being uncompetitive/otherwise stupid, but we can't legitimately make that decision in a metagame where Deo-S/D are the factors breaking the team.

    edit: just to be clear though I think Swagger is stupid as hell and we should get rid of it. We should just get rid of the Deos too.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  12. jrrrrrrr

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    I'm wondering what makes Swagger different in this generation compared to last gen, or any other gen of competitive pokemon. It has been the same exact move the whole time, and we had things like Scarf Imposter Ditto and Prankster Liepard for years already. Why is it suddenly up for a suspect test? What makes this 14 year old move suddenly the only suspect in the metagame (which on a side note is supremely balanced atm)?? How many pokemon are actually breaking the metagame with Swagger? It would help to narrow the scope of the swagger problem here in this suspect thread, because to me it looks and feels like the same move we've had forever. I'm not convinced it's broken at the moment but I'm going to abuse the shit out of this right meow

    I am totally stealing that Scarf Ditto combo btw, great replay.

    edit- does anyone have a SwagPlay team that's good without Klefki?
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  13. Doughboy

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    Steel-loosing its resistance to Dark has a lot to do with this. Defensive Steel-types who would have otherwise could dealt with Foul Play last gneration now fall victim to it. Skarmory without Brave Bird is a good example. Getting twice the damage on the premeir defensive typing compared to last gen is a pretty big buff. Klefki isn't the only Prankster user introduced. Thundurus-I last gen was around for a comparatively small amount of time to everything else because it was banned. Both of them have good defensive typings and decent bulk to hold a Substitute against most targets or if chance is against them, still survive the attack that from the pokemon that broke through. This is unlike a lot of the other Prankster users last gen (sableye, liepard, murkrow, purloin). Easy hazards from Deo-S and Deo-D who were banned is icing on the cake as Super Mario Bro said.

    Outside of in-batte though jrrrrrrr this is what I said to someone with the same question in the former thread:
  14. Magnemite

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    The fact that a move was allowed in past generations and not considered broken is no reason to not ban it. For example, the sets that gave way to the creation of The Endless Battle Clause were perfectly legal all throughout BW. However, very few people actually used those sets, so nothing was done about them. Even if Swagger didn't improve in the generation shift (which it clearly has, as Doughboy stated), the fact that it was allowed in previous generations should have no bearing on the outcome of this suspect test.

    Anyway, I completely agree with the banning of Swagger. It is no less luck based than evasion or OHKO moves are. Swagger is very toxic to the metagame as it not only provides but encourages skill-less and cheap methods of play. If we want competitive Pokemon to be as luck based as the masterful game of skill known as roulette, then there isn't much of a problem with Swagger. But if we want a metagame in which playing better than your opponent lets you win most of your games, then banning Swagger is an obvious thing to do.

    Also I got a 502 error trying to post my 502nd post what is this sorcery
  15. jrrrrrrr

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    It should be part of the discussion. Our suspect process has already had a few close run-ins with banning fads. Reuniclus and Volcorona come to mind. Someone is going to have to convince me that a pokemon other than Klefki is broken with Swagger on it, in order to ban a move from almost every single pokemon's movepool. I don't think that Swagger Blissey is broken. I don't think that Swagger Thundurus is broken. Just my personal opinion, I've been using it for a decade and I don't think it's breaking the entire OU metagame by itself. It's a valid opinion, without relying on hyperbole (its like roulette!!) or ad hominem/subjective insults (its stupid, i hate it, etc). If this was a Klefki suspect test, I'd be all for banning it. I think that would "nerf SwagPlay" as the OP states. But the question is "is Swagger broken by itself" from what I understand.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
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  16. MattL

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    The argument isn't that Swagger or SwagPlay are broken or overcentralizing. The argument is that they're uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame. By nature, these strategies inherently introduce way more luck into battles. Some anti-ban advocates try to counter this point by saying something like "Using Stone Edge introduces more luck into battles. Why don't we ban Stone Edge?" However, it's completely your choice whether or not to use Stone Edge; you cannot choose whether or not you fight a team on the ladder that, fundamentally, tries to hax its way to victory to an extent.

    This is also a good time for me to mention that while I was reading the public SwagPlay thread, a lot of anti-ban supporters used the slippery slope logical fallacy. And I'm not saying that it's a logical fallacy because my personal views happen to disagree with theirs. They used the slippery slope argument in a fallacious sense because several people would literally make posts like this:

    "You guys want to ban Swagger because it involves too much hax? Then we should ban ParaFlinch too. Next, we have to ban Sleep, because that's luck based. After that, Ice Beam needs to be banned because of its Freeze chance. Then we're going to ban all moves that don't have 100% accuracy."

    Obviously, there were many anti-ban supporters who made posts that were far more logically sound than the example one I just mentioned, and I understand that people who, frankly, don't know what they're talking about don't represent the people who do who share the same views. However, nobody should think that people wanting to ban Swagger and these techniques because they introduce too much luck into the game and are thus uncompetitive implies that those same people want to ban hax in general. Everyone knows that hax is part of the game. What is not constructive is using teams that are designed to make the following situation happen: If the Random Number Generator selects 1, you win. If it selects 2, you lose. That is what we are trying to avoid. And no, this is not comparable to Paraflinch or using sleep-inducing moves. I also realize that battles aren't that absolute and that hitting yourself in confusion or not hitting yourself in confusion once doesn't determine the outcome of the game. However, although good SwagPlay teams require lots of thought and strategy, their fundamental purpose of gaining free damage and turns through hax is uncompetitive.

    jrrrrrrr, the first paragraph of this post is when I was replying to you. The rest of the post is me talking to anti-ban advocates who might offer a refutation using the common anti-ban arguments I've seen.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  17. Yilx

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    Reposting this again because of it's (uncanny) relevancy. Teams based around solely on Swagplay strategies are more cancerous on not because of the fateful coinflip that their game ultimately depends on. Using a good sweeper and Ditto alongside 2-3 Prankster SwagPlay mons to wear down your opponent is ultimately throwing the game to luck. Yes, hax is part of the game. Yes, hax is usually attributed to Stone Edge's 80 Acc or Secondary Effects like Scald's 30% Burn. Critical hits sitting at 6.25% is also guility.

    However, Swagger puts the odds at 50:50; the chances of you or your opponent 'winning' or 'losing' are both equal. It's a 50-50 chance that simply takes everyone's odds and leaves it to fate; a gamble that's in neither party's favor, but if the Swagger mon 'wins' the coinflip, it'd usually be in it's favor more often than not as that is basically their strategy.

    Yes, I also agree that how 'broken' Deo-D and Deo-s are being exemplified in this Suspect; their absolute ease to set up hazards that Swagplay basically thrives on is very easy to see here (especially that damn Red Card Deo-D), but it all boils down to Swagger again; if you're willing to stay in to risk the coinflip, you might be able to break through their sub or at best even snap out of confusion, but if you don't you basically give them even more free turns.

    I am aware that there are hard stops to Foul Play/Swagger; alot of people will bring up 'swagplay counters' like physically defensive mons that resist Foul Play; Chansey, Clefable, Gastrodon (lol) and other similar mons come to mind. However, if they can force out that specific mon so damn easily just by having their SwagPlay mon out, might as well just force a double switch into an advantageous position all the time.

    The strategy was employed solely by Liepard and it's pre-evolution in the previous gen with some teams going all-out by employing Murkrow and Sableye alongside them. However, none of them really did share the exemplary typing that Klefki has or the field presence that Thundurus has. Steel losing it's resistance to dark means that the amount of mons that normally could stand a chance vs Swagplay are lowered (skarm in particular).

    I apologize if I might sound biased in this post, but I'm pretty happy about this issue being finally brought to light.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  18. Lasagne

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    swagger is stupid

    its entirely luck based, and anyone who says that its fine because its a 55% chance to not hit yourself first turn is spouting bullshit. that does not make swagger ok, it is still completely based on luck and adds nothing to the game. and no it is not klefki that makes this "playstyle" uncompetitive. i could easily make a swagplay team without klefki and still win games. klefki happens to be a pokemon that has access to the moves, with swagger and good defensive typing, but liepard, sableye, thundurus, murkrow, purrloin are all options. yes i said purrloin - swagplay makes fucking purrloin usable simply because it has prankster + swagplay. also deo-d and deo-s arent broken. yeah they set up like 2 layers reliably yay. defog is a big thing this gen so hazards arent too hard to get rid of. even without hazards you can stall outstall with a good swagplay team, as it should have toxic on at least one pokemon.

    im not sure what measures we should take tbh but just a plain and simple swagger ban sounds fine imo. i know it doesnt follow the rule of "its not broken on everything so dont ban" but i think we can make an except with this bullshit maybe? also i dont think the other confusion moves are so bad because they dont make you hit yourself harder, and they cant take advantage of the moves in any way like you can with foul play + swagger.

    just outplay the coinflip :]
    Lass Geneviéve, Karxrida and NixHex like this.
  19. Punchshroom

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    #banWhimsicottimo

    Look at that match, I (yes that is me btw) have not used a single Foul Play throughout the entirety of the match, there were no hazards in place, and I still managed to make Prankster Swagger work (Granted, I misclicked with my Thundurus on turn 14 there). This proves that Prankster Swagger does not need Foul Play to be absolute bullshit at deciding a match (How many heads can you flip? Stay tuned~). Also notice the Gothitelle I have on my team, even stall won't feel particularly safe against Prankster Swagger.

    jrrrrrrr , you are correct in that we need to assess whether Swagger is broken on everything before making a banning consensus, like why Blaziken instead of Speed Boost is banned, and why Sand Veil was banned on everything. In any case, MattL is right, Prankster Swagger isn't really 'broken' so much as it is 'uncompetitive': stuff like Stone Edge and Metronome may introduce more luck into battles, but the user has the option of not running them, and he / she should be expecting the hax anyway if he / she chooses to use them; Prankster Swagger drags the other player into the game of hax against their will, in a similiar fashion to evasion.

    This..."slippery slope fallacy" doesn't really hold up compared to what Prankster Swagger is capable of: even though crits can now be activated 100% via specific circumstances, they have been nerfed in return so it can be inferior to just outright setting up; freezing is unfortunate but they can't expect to have every freezing move in the game banned since it cannot be forced onto the opponent; even paraflinch has been nerfed since Electric-types can no longer be paralyzed, adding to the list of Pokemon / moves which can prevent forced paralysis, thus avoiding the flinch. Prankster Swagger is leagues easier to initiate, and is nowhere near as easily stopped.

    For their more individual flaws: crit Absol is too damn frail and crit Kingdra too slow; you can only hope to freeze an opponent since there is no way to increase the 10% freezing chance outside of Serene Grace; Jirachi and Togekiss are the only competent users of paraflinch, and they either have to choose between bulk or initial speed. The much more numerous and versatile Prankster users have artificial speed, letting them invest in bulk to get the best of both worlds.

    Reiterating my previous point, Prankster Swagger is the source of all the problems of forcing luck onto the opponent without any reliable / practical countermeasures. Every other possible 'broken' combination of Swagger + another move is just another instance of taking advantage of Pranskter Swagger. Even if Prankster Swagger is not particularly dangerous by itself, the numerous ways it can be abused to maximise the hax makes it the core problem. I also kept saying Prankster Swagger instead of Swagger as a whole since non-priority Swagger can be responded to in plentiful ways (priority, Sub, Taunt, faster switch-in), especially since the users now have to choose between bulk and speed like the paraflinchers do to make the move even worthwhile.

    Edit:
    In theory, most of these look like very solid responses. In practice, my Calm Mind Bold @ Leftovers Clefable lost to Klefki one-on-one, not given a single chance to Moonlight once it reached the 60% mark, and I really shouldn't have to resort to Cosmic Power and give up Calm Mind just for this. You cannot stop the hax reliably without resorting to impractical methods that weaken your other matchups, like never-missing moves, Perish Song, & Haze for evasion.

    Mega Absol gets 3HKOed by Foul Play, and is 2HKOed by STAB Foul Play, not to mention it cannot switch in directly. If Garchomp relies on dual STABs, it won't bypass Whimsicott very easily, especially if Encore / Taunt is involved. Chansey and Own Tempo Smeargle (without Magic Coat) are stopped cold before Taunt Sableye. The only Taunt user capable of standing before Prankster Swagger is Mandibuzz, who may just get Taunted back or zapped by Thundurus. Lando-T and a host of other bulky pivots (like Rotom-W) are nice to combat SwagPlay, but they lose a lot of steam as well should they hit themselves. Deoxys-D can't actually do much back / anything back, they can just use up Deo-D's Red Card, Substitute up and keep spamming Swagger to prevent Deo-D from setting up all over them or runs out of PP.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
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  20. scorpdestroyer

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    I don't have much else to add about uncompetitiveness that users above have already said, but the thing about Swagger is not so much a high chance for the opponent to not move, but more like a high chance that the opponent gives you free turns to do whatever you like. In that free turn you can set up subs, boost up, or switch to Ditto, while the victim can either 1) pray that he moves or 2) give you a free turn by hitting himself, switching, whatever. In that time you're free to get subs up (Doughboy already showed that the odds are heavily stacked against Swagplay victims) and foul play them to death. Simple. This is a lot like Evasion; it results in a very high chance to get free turns for little to no cost. Meanwhile things like paraflinching aren't as bad because your opponent can react to those and the user of those isn't gaining much apart from chipping away, but in this case the victim is completely helpless that subs are being set up and free turns are being awarded, and he isn't even in control of that.

    Also, if anyone can name a competitive reason to use Swagger, I'd like to hear it. Swagger is pretty much a solely uncompetitive move; its sole reason is to induce hax, much like evasion did. Things like paralysis can't be banned because they have legitimate competitive effects; all Swagger does is change the game into a luckfest. Which is not what "competitive" means.
    Magnemite and Karxrida like this.
  21. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    If anyone qualifies for suspect ranks by using a swagplay team WITHOUT Klefki, I'll change my avatar and CT to whatever they want for a month.

    I just tried abusing SwagPlay, it was solid. Much better than I thought it would be. I started by winning 20 of my first 23 battles, then I just could not win anymore. Like, really good to start. After I hit 1400, swagplay just fails. I couldn't imagine actually entering a team like this into a real battle.

    From my experience, here are the things I've used/seen people use:
    - Lum Berry Substitute Garchomp
    - Chansey (doesnt give a FUCK about swagplay, heals your team, sets SR)
    - Clefable
    - Own Tempo Smeargle on a BP team (fucking owned me)
    - Landorus-T
    - Taunt
    - Magic Coat Deoxys-D
    - Magic Bounce from Mega Absol who also resists Foul Play
    - get 1-turn confusions like my opponent always seems to....
    - Electric types aren't affected by TWave and generally dont care about confusion damage

    If that's the argument, we need to quantify it. How "unhealthy" does something have to be before we declare that it is breaking the entire metagame?

    Resembling a logical fallacy isn't the same as being a fallacy. It's not a slippery slope, we're building a staircase. When Skymin got banned we said "its not a slippery slope!". When we banned Sand Veil instead of Garchomp we said "its not a slippery slope!". When we banned Moody, etc etc etc.....how many more times does this have to get posted before people realize that we're not looking at a slippery slope, we're already halfway down it. If you want to ban luck, just come out and say it. No need to hide behind subjective impossible-to-verify weasel words like unhealthy. It's pretty telling that you can replace SwagPlay with ParaFlinch and the argument would be EXACTLY as valid.

    What is the luck %age cutoff point for banning?

    You accidentally brought ammunition against your own point...Paralysis is a 25% chance of not moving and a permanent speed drop, that is a legitimate competitve effect. Swagger brings a 45% chance of confusion for a short range of turns, can be removed at any time by switching, and it gives your opponent a free SD, which is ....not a legitimate competitive effect? Where the heck is the line?

    Oh, and since you brought it up, what exactly does "competitive" mean?
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Here is a tip to make laddering easier: use Choice Specs Sylveon! Dgaf about Foul Play even after multiple Swagger boosts, dgaf about Choice Scarf Ditto (Hyper Voice is easy to wall without the Specs boost), and blasts through every single Prankster user with Hyper Voice, which bypasses Subs. Even against 252 HP / 252 SpD+ Klefki, Hyper Voice does 34.5 - 40.5%, which is not bad at all, given that Klefki resists Hyper Voice.

    As for Prankster Swagger, it's stupid and uncompetitive for all the reasons mentioned already, and i would be glad to see it gone.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  23. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    In terms of anti-SwagonPlay mons, LumSub Excadrill could be used (gets Rapid Spin, EQ, and Rock Slide / Iron Head, which hit SwagPlay users pretty hard at +2). Then again, I'm not seeing it so often as to where I'd really consider using it . . .

    -.-.-

    I want to get something straight for people comparing Swagger to Double Team: Double Team is potentially broken on every Pokemon who uses it, whereas Swagger is not.

    I'm assuming the OP is asking if Swagger is broken *by itself*.

    This is a huge problem, because Swagger is not broken by itself. If a Pokemon that doesn't have Prankster uses Swagger, you can Taunt, Substitute, or simply KO it to avoid getting the 50 / 50 cointoss. No, Swagger in conjunction with Prankster is the only debatable thing broken, not swagger by itself. There are arguments saying that Swagger causes confusion and is "noncompetitive" anyway -- by seriously, define competitive. Status conditions are competitive, even if they are decreed hax and luck based.

    You know what else is "gay?" Baton Pass. You know what else is "stupid" or "retarded?" Baton Pass. We aren't banning Baton Pass though, and that's because we don't ban things simply because we don't like them. Can we stop using these arguments, especially since half of them are committing ad hominem! (PK Gaming once deleted a post of mine, because, I quote, "... [A]d hominem is strictly forbidden." Feel free to ban half the posts above mine!)

    That aside, I personally think Klefki is the culprit. Yes, some of the other SwagPlay users do better against "anti SwagPlay" mons (lol really?). Still, Klefki gets steel typing and bulk, meaning that you can hit it and its substitutes might stay in tact, and it simply lives more hits thanks to it's rather nicer typing compared to the other abusers. If SwagPlay is truly broken, it should be broken even without Klefki. To prove it is broken, someone please provide a replay showcasing a team that is broken without Klefki.

    I can get behind banning Klefki, or the combination of Swagger + Prankster. However, as a Conservative Player, I see no reason why we should ban Swagger -- it is not broken by itself. No, simply saying its noncompetitive is not proving it's broken -- Baton Pass is a perfect example as something both noncompetetive and not broken and tolerated.

    As I said earlier, it depends on what kind of player you are: if you want to create a "healthy" metagame (which is pretty subjective, by the way) or if you want to create one where we ban only broken things.
    TerraMythos, Starline, GLink and 14 others like this.
  24. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Another alternative would be physically defensive Volcarona, which a) can take some Foul Plays well, b) has Flame Body to reach them behind their Sub, crippling both Foul Play's power and their longevity, c) has recovery in case it gets pressured, and d) can Bug Buzz right through their Subs. However, even these two Pokemon can fail to stop Prankster Swagger since they can succumb to sheer hax, as my Clefable has ;_;, not to mention other potential factors such as Gothitelle (which can cripple Sylveon with Psychock) or Destiny Bond Mega Banette.

    Frankly I'm not sure if Double Team is really that 'broken', I assume it was banned since it more or less forces the opponent to play by your rules, limiting player choices.

    Agreeing with this. As for status conditions, really the only one up for debate is paralysis since freeze cannot be forced, and even then people usually expect paralysis to not paralyze their opponent a good majority of the time since they usually use it for its slowing effect anyway. We've all heard of tales of 'triple paralysis', but at least that doesn't happen enough for the opponent to consistently take advantage of it (unless you're really unlucky, but who's to blame anymore?).

    Not really broken in my opinion, but I have shown a replay on how Prankster Swagger alone can be used to bullshit one's way throughout a match, no Foul Play needed.

    Reiterating, ban Prankster Swagger only.
  25. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    See, based on Tesung's replay, we can conclude that even Swagger on its own can be unfair. Tesung could have won despite being in an otherwise unwinnable scenario; the game all came down to the stupid Swagger coin flip. Is that competitive? It's practically the antithesis thereof. Skill is totally removed; there is a roughly 50/50 probability to win or lose for either side. It makes the game decided by probability, which is stupid and should not be allowed in a competitive environment.
    Piexplode, KantyeWest, Sweep and 5 others like this.
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