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DPP OU Losing Is An Incapability - 100% Win Ratio

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Taylor, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    starmie is outsped and killed by gyarados after 1 dd. he'll usually be blowing up on cresselia, who happens to be 2HKO'd by ddlo gyara, and honestly, where the hell is machamp gonna find the time to switch in? the only thing he can really switch in on is garchomp's stone edge. garchomp outrage kills non-superdefensive starmie (and 2HKO's superdefensive starmie easily), and honestly, the superdefensive ones don't run ice beam. starmie has no place to switch in, except against ape, who's usually dead early on. also, starmie will not be doing anything to metagross who can pursuit it for big damage.

    edit: lol taylor finished his post faster than me
  2. Dekzeh

    Dekzeh It's the sound of the world ending.
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    But you do have some Starmie problems Taylor :x

    LO/EBelt Offensive Starmie like I said on my earlier post.

    Have you considered Waccan Gyarados? It lets you get the second DD on the face of those Deoxys/Starmies and outspeed/kill them.
  3. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    What's the point? Life Orb + Stone Edge will ensure a OHKO (assuming Stone Edge does not miss) Starmie, while Metagross takes care of Deoxys easily enough with Pursuit.

    I took your point on how I have issues with Starmie, but earlier you mentioned about how Starmie is problematic yet advised me to use Celebi. Who, of course, doesn't exactly help at all with offensively-based Starmie. However, I completely understand the difficulty in dealing with Starmie.
  4. Venom

    Venom red eyes no visine
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    I still don't see how Starmie is a problem, I mean, Ipl's Metagross was meant for Deoxys, so I don't see how it is any different from dealing with a Gengar or Starmie.

    I don't really see any weaknesses tbh, this kind of teams depend on prediction to win, although I to support you trying out Bronzong for those Mamoswine.
  5. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Starmie, when all is EVed and done, is superior in a sense that it has higher defenses than Deoxys and can take Pursuit for a measily 40/50%ammount of damage (estimating) if it chooses to stay put, not to forget that you can heal Starmie's HP with Recover - Deoxys has access to Recover but usually does not use it. Starmie's Surf hits Metagross a lot harder than Deoxys' Thunderbolt or Superpower, as well.
  6. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    Um not too sure what's going on, but the spread provided by the analysis will always survive a +1, LO SE from Gyarados (provided that it hits (Bite guarantees OHKO though!)).

    Also, Starmie can actually stall out Metagross's Pursuit, as it seems like it only does roughly 38-45% if Starmie doesn't switch (on 304/206 Starmie). (Although Earthquake would do more at this point...)

    Just nitpicking though.
  7. Evil Hamster

    Evil Hamster

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    Alternatively, it Close Combats or Megahorns Salamence, and Stone Edges Metagross. It's beaten with prediction, and SD Heracross is too slow to be a real threat. MoPCross is outsped and revenge killed by Garchomp, and can't really set up again.

    Another thing I'd be wary of is pretty much anything with WoW. After Infernape's got rocks down and dies, everything else on your team is crippled by Will-o-wisp, particularly by something like Weezing which nothing on your team bar Infernape can OHKO. Keeping Infernape alive as long as possible would probably help that, thanks to the immunity. Alternatively, you could just let DX-S get burnt and hope you don't have to face a Blissey with it :p

    Anyway, nice team :) Can't find much to critique.
  8. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    I'm really curious how you plan to deal with Zapdos. Lets say for example that it was one of the defensive oriented Zapdos. Now first off, this means that it has a sudden decrease in power. However what exactly can this particular team due to it?

    Looking at your team, the only Pokes that I can see actually having a chance to beat it would be a crit Stone Edge from Garchomp, and exploding on it from Metagross.

    A really quick solution to this problem would be changing Garchomp to a CBChomp and using an Adament nature. Other then that you'll probobly have to face one to see how your team handles him.
  9. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    I'm still unable to switch in safely when Zapdos is forcing me to predict around the ever-so-common Hidden Power [Ice] and Thunderbolt combination. The only plus side to that alternative is that I can hit Zapdos with Garchomp for a noticable ammount of damage - considering I can OHKO with Stone Edge once Stealth Rock damage has been applied - but I have to bring Garchomp in and try my best not to get outpredicted. It doesn't guarantee me much, to be honest.

    First of all, Gliscor has to switch in - presumably after I OHKO something else otherwise he loses unintended damage - and set both Swords Dance and Rock Polish up. In that time, I can easily switch and/or deal damage to him with anyone of my Pokemon and take full advantage of the situation. Considering that your scenario and Gliscor moveset is very rare, I won't worry about that at all - especially when some of your explanation is unclear and reliant on misses.

    Define 'undefeated' in that sentence. What exactly is your idea of 'undefeated'? I, suprising as it may be, won 30 games in-a-row without a loss, and those are the only games I played. Now, wouldn't one be inclined to believe that it was undefeated, considering it did not lose?

    Not well at all, if I were to say so myself. Explosion ith Metagross, hope that the opposing Suicune does not carry Hidden Power [Electric] and likewise Ice Beam - either move will demolish either one of my Gyarados or Salamence - force it to use Rest while I predict the turn it uses it and switch Garchomp in order to Outrage Suicune in hopes for no confusion at then end of the second turn. This, of course, is one of the many reasons why I am contemplating on replacing a member for Celebi - an alternative Dekzeh supplied me with.
  10. Qzahk

    Qzahk

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    You have problems with 228 speed, Ice Punch Agiligross @leftovers/life orb/shuca berry. It can come in on Scarfchomp or Deoxys-e, set up an agility, and outspeed and ohko 4/6 of your team. The other 2/6 can't ohko back and won't last long with a layer of Stealth Rock.

    A quick way to fix this is to make your Scarfchomp Jolly. That way, you can outspeed Agiligross even after an agility and deal 84-99% with eq. Shuca berry halves this, though. You can still play around that by weakening the agiligross with a healthy Metagross and/or Gyarados.
  11. Stallion

    Stallion I get so much action, my name should be a verb
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    I've used this team a bit and I must say its a great one. There are two changes I am making to it for personal use to trial.

    The first is the removal of Salamence for a DDtar, because lets face it, Cresselia is one annoying fuck to your team.

    The other change I will make is the usage of Resttalk Bronzong over that Metagross, which doesn't seem to do alot for me.

    Aside from those minor things I'm pretty much in love with it. <3
  12. Taylor

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    I suppose Tyranitar can help improve the team as it contributes to the team's notible problems, such as Cressilia. Bronzong, on the other hand, cannot trap Gengar or Deoxys, and I feel that's an important asset to this team in particular, and I value that dearly. I cannot emphasize how much Gengar can wreck havoc on anyones' team, and with Metagross having the ability to ambush Gengar with Pursuit is a fine asset to posess.
  13. MetaNite

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    If you do add DDTar, and don't take out Salamance, it would be awesome because it be just like your sig!

    This team does look pretty solid, but I think CounterStar would cause you a lot of problems. Coming in to bolt your Gyara or Beam your Salamance or Surf your Tyranitar. I reccomend keeping Metagross, as he will help with this. Pursuit is definately a great move for this team, and will wear out Starmie quickly.
  14. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    He is also a member here on Smogon. Perhaps you're bound to come toe-to-toe against this team on the ladder, considering it has so many views.

    I'm interested to hear what I can replace Infernape for. Some bring up Bronzong, who can set Stealth Rock up as well as Infernape, but additionally granting me both Metagross and Mamoswine protection. I haven't myself experienced such threats that were capable of winning there and then, but on paper, those two seem the most likely.

    I'm strongly considering replacing Infernape for Bronzong.
  15. Poppin

    Poppin

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    Although both posses the ability to help this team out with Stealth Rock, I'd suggest Infernape stay.

    For one, you lose that protection against leads who carry some type of "surprise to get rid of Bronzong". With Infernape, you get a guarented Stealth Rock and most likely a KO on the switch in or, other lead Pokemon. You also have the chance to ruin other Suicide leads, or, Sashers with Fake Out- On that subject, Fake Out can also tell weather you opponent plans to stay in, possibly giving you the advantage (i.e Deoxys-S, fearing a Scarfed variant switches to Tyranitar to abosrb the Fire Blast/Overheat). Then you have Fire Blast and Close Combat, a combination of which isn't resisted by much.

    With Bronzong as a lead, getting up a Stealth Rock is somewhat more difficult since a lot of leads these days tend to carry something to stop Bronzong from setting up, or, to KO Bronzong right off the bat. Some teams don't even consider Stealth Rock a threat and thus, they just let Bronzong go by. Bronzong can also give some sleep support with Hypnosis which is also good for helping the rest of your team get a perfect setup from there, hopefully ending the game earlier than usual.
  16. Banana292

    Banana292

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    Just a quick Idea. Why not mach punch on infernape? It's gonne take down weavile leads, and it's essentially the same as fake out, but you use it the second turn not the first. Also, people expect to be OHKO'd if they've just had their sash acivated, whereas they won't expec a mach punch.

    I guess it could get LOdugtrio too if it decides to EQ Metagross toast, infernape can come in and mach punch it, because they may not expect the mach punch. I think.
  17. Fiskebollen

    Fiskebollen

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    Fake Out flinches. Mach Punch has higher power due to STAB and can be used after round one, but does not flinch.


    Not essentially the same.
  18. Mystica

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    The team is okay, I'm surprised you hadn't lost yet though. Because you do have some weaknesses but then again great playing usually overcomes that lol. So taking out Infernape for Bronzong loses Taylor's "anti-lead" and essentially doesn't do the same thing. And i'm really surprised you dont have a Fire move on the dragons since Skarmory walls half of your team...have you even faced one yet? And also I like what Brawley said about the addition of Celebi... though I dont know who to replace and who to make a lead lol.
  19. RaikouLover

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    Just saw this thread, won't stop me from posting though!

    Looks like a solid team, good to see Lead Infernape at work!!!! Most raters seem to have trouble understanding that an offensive team like this is all about pace. I assume you just set up the next pokemon in line, fight until they die, and bring out the next heavy hitter that can set up, correct? I've been meaning to make a team like this I just haven't perfected the strategy yet...
  20. darkie

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    You don't really have a solid switch-in to Gengar. Metagross is 2HKOed (56.53% - 66.57%) by a LO Shadow Ball. If you switch into Hypnosis, Bullet Punch does not OHKO and Gengar has another shot to Hypnotize you. Focus Blast does the same as Shadow Ball, so you can really only switch in to Thunderbolt.
  21. zukirin

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    I second Banana's opinion about Mach Punch. No matter what, if the opponent chose to, they could always set up SR even if you used Fake Out. However, with Mach Punch you have a reusable Priority Move.

    However, this comment is void if Fire Blast fails to put Azelf/deoxys into Mach Punch KO Range.
  22. aflorez0

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    Hey Taylor, I love your team. Every pokemon for themselves and at the same time, they give each other type coverage. I battle the same way, so its good to see someone using their common sense for once.

    I think I battled you once, or a team smilar to it.

    The biggest two threats I see are ScarGar and Mix Mamoswine, which is actually what I have on my team and are very common in OU.

    You have NO idea how many people throw in Gyarados into my Milotic, since I HAVE to swtich out... I go with my ScarGar... 100% of the people D Drance and STAY in. I hit 'em with thunderbolt, and its an easy OHKO.
    Im not saying that you will do this yourself, my ScarGar point is that ScarGar is a guaranteed switch into Gyarados. Infernape will also fall to a ScarfGar. Deocoy poekmon will take on Metagross, and expects explosion. Then Mamoswine's LO will kill Salamace, Garchomp, and cripple Deoxys.

    So my brother, this is a weakness I noticed. Brozong could deal with these nicely... and replace the Unofficial Uber in OU with Brozong.

    Good luck with your team
  23. Poppin

    Poppin

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    It is, I ran damage calcs on both and neither of them can bo KO'd by a combination of Fire Blast and Mach Punch, please note that I had to subtract 3 from each side of the calculation since Metalkid's Damage Calc overshoots by a bit:

    Infernape's Fire Blast on Azelf

    Damage: 227 - 267
    Damage: 75.01% - 88.75%

    On Deoxys-S:

    Damage: 185 - 218
    Damage: 73.76% - 87.46%

    Now, let's try Mach Punch-

    On Azelf:

    Damage: 32 - 38
    Damage: 9.00% - 11.06%

    Final: 84.01% - 99.52%

    On Deoxys:

    Damage: 27 - 31
    Damage: 9.20% - 10.86%

    Final: 82.96% - 98.32%

    Very close to a KO, but, not exactly a HP without a critical hit, or, a stat boost, or, if they run -Spdef/Def natures. Although Deoxys normally runs a Hasty Nature on a mixed set, I meainly see Spikers, Double Screeners, Stealth Rockers and Specs variants as leads lately.

    Fake Out can provide the same thing. Seeing as how LODugtrio isn't OHKO'd by Mach Punch, the Sash will activate either way and, well, you'd be KOing it on the second turn either way. Fake Out is a very nice way of scouting since your opponent will flinch if they stay in, protecting Infernape from getting jumped on.

    EDIT: Something like this:

    Infernape used Fake Out
    Dugtrio Flinched
    Dugtrio used Earthquake
    Infernape's Focus Sash Activated
    Infernape used Fire Blast
    Dugtrio fainted

    Now, with Mach Punch

    Infernape used Mach Punch
    Dugtrio used Eathquake
    Infernape's Focus Sash activated
    Infernape used Mach Punch
    Dugtrio fainted

    Infernape is stuck with 1 HP either way and if Dugtrio had switched out to something like Gengar after the second Mach Punch was about to be dealt, something on his team would've taken whatever it tossed at it, badly. Now, if Gengar switche din after Fake Out, it would be dead.
  24. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    True, but include Stealth Rock damage and the fact that Life Orb self-inflicts 10% of damage. Okay, so perhaps you did; but did you factor that Bullet Punch and the fact that I can force Gengar out with my Garchomp? After that, Gengar cannot switch back in without taking another 12%, resulting in a fainted Gengar. I guess Metagross succeeded in its endeavours. I understand your point, though, darkie.

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