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Lucario

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Ditto, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. FSLAR

    FSLAR

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    It's worth noting, on the Lucario and Terrakion comparison, that Lucario has less weaknesses and more resistances(though its defenses are non existent) and the only priority move it is weak is Mach Punch, while Terrakion is weak to Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet. In fact, Terrakion only resists ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch (which doesn't even count because that would do far more harm than good); Lucario resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch( both extremely rare but still). This becomes somewhat moot for both Pokes after a Defense drop, but the point still stands. And of course, ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch compensate for this with Lucario. Terrakion may have decent defenses but the myriad weaknesses work against this, though the boost from Sandstorm definitely helps. It is worth noting that because they have a different set of resistances, this sets them apart, or can.
    Also, Terrakion cannot beat Gliscor outside of Rock Gem +2 Stone Edge - which can still miss as Gliscor Earthquakes you - but Lucario can with Ice Punch - without a boost sometimes too.
  2. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Luke is just beastly overall as soon as his counters are gone, even more so than most sweepers/cleaners as he has a massive attack stat to abuse and the best Priority move in the game to abuse it with.
  3. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Oh Lucario. You are such a Go Big or Go Home player.
    If it misses its chance its done. If it takes it and acts on it, the game is yours.
    Haha, excuse the Brawl Reference, but Lucario seems to be quite similar in Pokemon and SSBB due to the fact that Lucario is a formidable Pokemon only if it is played at the right times with the right strategy. He'll bring you a loss or a victory; he's pretty straightfoward. Due to this, this is why he's B-Rank on the Viability Thread. Sadly our favorite Jackel will most likely struggle to even hit top 15 usage...although it did hit rank 41 on November Suspect with 4.737% usage...
    Next Generation Lucario, just wait. Your time will come...
    ::::::::::::::::::::::::
    [​IMG]
  4. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Mainly because Wobbuffet is better on balanced teams. Access to Encore = free Whirlwind and/or hazards. free Substitute, free switch-in opportunities, easy resistance abuse, and of course, free turns to set-up. It also beats pretty much every scarfer in OU.
  5. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    I said Agility Lucario is not useful against balanced teams. Compared to SD Lucario, it just doesn't have the power to break down physical walls. Its Ice Punch is not even an OHKO after SR on 252/184+ Gliscor, so you either predict correctly or not set up at all.
  6. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Oh, you were talking about Luke and not Gothitelle >.>

    Well Luke is "ok" on balanced teams. The problem though is that balanced teams like to abuse resistances and immunities, and Lucario isn't exactly bulky enough to repeatedly switch in.
  7. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    @Wizarus:
    Me and my man Gary2346 were actually discussing team structures and one point he brought up was the role of a sweeper. Even on Balanced Teams you need a Pokemon that can set up and finish the game with a bang. While not always necessary, it happens, it works, and its pretty sick. :)
    Agility or SD Lucario can quite efficiently fulfil this role on balanced teams.
    That was my 2 cents haha

    @ClubbingSealCub:
    Whoops. Didn't get that, sorry
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::
    [​IMG]
  8. Takion

    Takion

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    Hmm is double dance really out of the question? Again as mentioned before...it all comes to that last move slot.

    Agility
    SD
    CC
    Crunch (Ghost Control, psychic controls)...Ice Punch (Dragon, Gliscor, Ground, Therian control)...

    Does anyone have any statistics on the pokemon used most organized monthly?

    I feel the use of Ice punch to be more necessary

    Thoughts and opinions?

    Also Tabuu, Im hearing that the new generation maybe announced after the new movie (thats in July)...so perhaps then!
  9. Silenced Melody

    Silenced Melody

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    I don't think Double Dance Lucario is that great because you're really asking to be walled. To put it simply, Agility Lucario is great for cleaning up HO while SD is useful for wall breaking / sweeping. Putting both set up moves together doesn't increase his effectiveness and is quite the opposite.

    Double dance on Landorus-T / Terrakion is okay because the moves that they use offer enough coverage (EdgeQuake and STAB CC + SE respectively).
  10. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Double Dance Lucario is definitely viable. I have used it to great success. However, your set shouldn't be physical.

    Lucario@Life Orb
    Modest Nature
    EV's: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
    -Nasty Plot
    -Agility
    -Aurora Sphere
    -Shadow Ball

    Perfect coverage and takes advantage of Luke's higher base Special Attack stat. It obliterates everything (until the first Ghost/Normal pokemon is introduced).
  11. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Not really seeing much merit for Agility over Vacuum Wave on that set, since without the damage output from Nasty Plot you're not going to be sweeping an opponent after an Agility any time soon, and competent players are not going to let you get off both boosts.
  12. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    Want to reiterate on the point above. Double Boosting in general imo is a pretty unviable strategy tbh since you have fewer coverage moves and during the first boost. Even though you get perfect coverage, there are some Pokemon you just don't hit hard enough. Also if you boost the wrong stat to deal with one of the many Lucario checks then you are in trouble since you have one less move to hit opponents with. In addition to this Lucario isn't exactly that powerful on the special side to warrant using Agility... although it may look like it is due to the raw stats, Close Combat is much more powerful than Aura Spere.
  13. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Agreeing with Swamp-Rocket here:
    Using Agility on the Special Side doesn't work out too well.
    And to be honest, Special Variants of Lucario just cannot contend with other Special sweepers. Vacuum Wave is simply a bit too weak to alleviate his severe base 90 speed issue. Too many top threats such as Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Gliscor, Terrakion, Jellicent, Politoed, Dragonite, and Breloom are really able to punish Special Variants.
    Physical Variants have access to Swords Dance and moves that carry higher base power.
    Close Combat is 120 while Aura Sphere is 90
    Extreme Speed is 80 while Vacuum Wave is 40
    Extreme Speed has +2 Priority beating Techniloom after a Dance.
    Vacuum Wave has +1 Priority; Techniloom can take a +2 VW and respond with Mach Punch for the OHKO.

    Speaking of Agility, I really want to reiterate the potential Agility sets carry.
    SD Variants lack coverage. Let's be honest. Base 90 Speed is pretty bad for a Sweeper (especially one that is frail; although Lucario packs a hell of a lot of resistances...but besides the point). If we look at this metagame, Lucario will be using Extreme Speed way more often that he will be throwing out Close Combats. Also since SD Variants have only one slot open for choice (SD, CC, and ES are pretty mandatory) coverage becomes an issue.
    However, Agility fixes that issue.
    With max Attack investments, Adamant Nature, and Life Orb, Lucario still packs quite the punch. Obviously he will not match the power of a +2 Lucario but with Entry Hazards and a worn-down opposition, that +2 is not needed.
    Agility Lucario is able to free up a moveslot with coverage instead of utility (ES and BP).
    Agility Lucario can run a powerful CC, Crunch, and Ice Punch.
    Agility Lucario is able to outspeed many potent threats and loses to Rock Polish Terrakion and Landorus.
    Obviously Techniloom still "looms" as a big threat but that's why a team is composed of 6 members...
    If Lucario is given that chance to set up an Agility Lucario will practically outspeed everything including Tornadus-Therian and Choice Scarf Latios.
    With Stealth Rock in play, Thundurus and Tornadus (therians) will fall indefinitely to an Ice Punch, as does Landorus.
    Terrakion is demolised by Close Combat and Keldeo is a guarenteed OHKO with CC if it walks in healthy onto SR and a layer of Spikes.
    Politoed will 100% be OHKOd by CC if it is Scarfed and SR is in play.
    Specs variant must take SR and (1) spike damage.
    Latios falls to a Crunch after SR.
    Latias is 2HKOd. However none of her moves as a CMer will be able to OHKO Lucario.
    In short, I just wanted to show that Agility Lucario is very viable and I feel it deserves a spot on the Smogon Analysis. (Which I'd be happy to write :D )

    Edit: Oh my. This post is a little long ._.
    tl;drThe first Paragraph talks about Special Variants of Lucario and the Second talks about the viability of Agility Lucario.
  14. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    I don't feel Agility Lucario is viable in OU unfortunately. While Tabuu has a point and the Swords Dance set does lack coverage, Lucario simply isn't strong enough without the boost in Atk to sweep teams. Lets go through some calcs.

    252Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 248HP/184Def Gliscor (+Def): 75% - 90% (268 - 320 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Crunch vs 248HP/216Def Leftovers Water Absorb Jellicent (+Def): 50% - 60% (204 - 244 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Reuniclus (+Def): 45% - 53% (192 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    I think you see my point. Lucario can't even guarantee an OHKO on Gliscor with Ice Punch, which happens to be 4x super effective. Its a shame because Lucario is my favourite pokemon and I would really like to see him work :(
  15. LucaroarkZ

    LucaroarkZ

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    I did Lucario's current analysis (which lacks an Agility set, mind you). Agility is viable, in my honest opinion, however. You do have to lean heavy on the hazards, but Deoxys-D is so good at this that it's not much of an issue. Sure, Agility Lucario may lack some power, but let's look at it relative to the Swords Dance set's problem.

    SD Lucario has to use SD/CC/E-Speed, so you only have one more slot to cover what you want. You can pick Crunch, Ice Punch, or Bullet Punch, but between those moves, you will always fail against something. Thanks to Agility Luke's superior coverage, it doesn't have that problem. Thanks to the +2 with Agility, I've found that it's also better against offensive teams once their Technician Breloom (if they have one) is gone (easy to do, lol)

    Basically, yes, Swords Dance is generally the better set, but Agility Lucario's superior coverage and +2 Speed boost may prove to be more useful against offensive teams since Agility Lucario can beat many faster Pokemon found on offensive teams such as Terrakion and Gengar without sacrificing coverage.

    Also I'd just like to point out that many Gliscor are now running enough Speed to outrun Adamant Lucario, so it's not like Swords Dance Lucario is doing much better against Gliscor.
  16. Zentrius

    Zentrius

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    Honestly, I still think the SD is by far the superior choice on Lucario. What do you eactly switch in front of a +2 Lucario if you don't have Jellicent/Slowbro? The standard Physicall wall like Skarmory or Forretress? Forretress can't do anything to it unless it has Earthquake but nobody uses Earthquake on Forretress. Skarmory can phaze it but you still take like 80-70 from CC anyways.

    SD Lucario is one of the biggest threats in the metagame right now because you can bring it on a Choice locked-resist and then start with the set-up and sweep.
  17. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    SD Lucario with ES CC and Crunch does not have real counters ...
  18. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Gliscor, Lando-T. Dragonite can take a +2 crunch and Garchomp has enough bulk to take +2 Extreme speed...
  19. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    I'd much rather use bullet punch, its the best fit for this metagame in my opinion as terrakion and gengar are much more threatining than say jellicent and reuniclus. And Gliscor outspeeds lucario anyways :/
  20. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Yeah, with Gliscor I NEVER stay in unless I'd lose the game otherwise. I know what the standard set is, but I'm always finding people who run speed for some odd reason, and it's the biggest downer to get nailed by Earthquake before you can do anything when Gliscor is the entire reason you're even using Ice Punch.
  21. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Gliscor is five points in base Speed faster. That does not matter when Gliscor is unlikely to invest much in speed, if at all (not since Sand Veil was banned and offensive Gliscors have all but disappeared).

    EDIT: Wait, seriously? I don't run Lucario, so this has never been an issue for me, but you encounter a lot of Gliscors that invest in speed? Weird. Well, they're pulling from HP or Defense, so they're more likely to get it up the butt from something else.
  22. SJCrew

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    Nowadays, I think it's better to run Bullet Punch and some Gliscor insurance, like offensive Rain partners or Gothitelle. Ice Punch is cool, but not cooler than owning Terrakion at +2.
  23. LizardMan

    LizardMan p good
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    This, and because of Gengar and Scarf Tyranitar. BP Lucario is cool because people are so quick to switch their Lucario counters in, making it easy to lure them, or switch in your own counters for their Gliscor etc.

    Bullet Punch allows you to eliminate many of your checks, who are not quick to switch in at all, which makes them much harder to eliminate, lure out, or kill before Lucario is actually trying to punch a sweep in.
  24. Takion

    Takion

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    Gliscor |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Poison Heal 94.719% |
    | Hyper Cutter 5.281% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Toxic Orb 91.268% |
    | Flying Gem 4.127% |
    | Other 4.605% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Natures |
    | Impish 64.318% |
    | Adamant 16.798% |
    | Jolly 7.588% |
    | Hardy 4.128% |
    | Careful 2.615% |
    | Other 4.554% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | EV spreads |
    | 252/0/184/0/0/72 44.374% |
    | 184/252/0/0/0/72 8.812% |
    | 4/252/0/0/0/252 3.690% |
    | 252/0/252/0/0/4 3.222% |
    | 252/4/252/0/0/0 2.228% |
    | 0/252/4/0/0/252 2.019% |
    | Other 35.655% |
    +---------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Therefore, if you are facing a Faster Gliscor...it is a rogue Gliscor. Also, it is never a wise idea to keep lucario in when facing a Gliscor (unless of the ice punch).
  25. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    Entry hazards don't guarantee the KO on any of the calcs I posted. Gliscor is immune to both types of Spikes and after Stealth Rock damage it has 87.5% left, so even then the chance is still low. Jellicent doesn't have a chance of being KOed even with Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes. And Reuniclus is immune to entry hazard damage anyway.

    You could argue that those three threats aren't that common and yes, Lucario could clean up against teams that lack any of these three (and a few others like Hippowdon, Gyarados and Slowbro) but all these pokemon are common enough to be relevant. Not to mention that Lucario has issues with Mach Punch users like Breloom (mentioned) and Conkeldurr, and pokemon with the ability Prankster.

    My final point, which is probably the real issue with Agility Lucario, is that so many pokemon can take a hit and retaliate. Quite a few pokemon without a weakness to Close Combat and a 4x weakness to Ice punch can take a hit and retaliate. Look at these calcs using three very common pokemon;

    252Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Close Combat vs 248HP/0Def Levitate Rotom (Neutral): 77% - 91% (235 - 277 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Close Combat vs 248HP/0Def Scizor (Neutral): 72% - 85% (249 - 294 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 65% - 78% (240 - 286 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Entry hazards are required for KOes on both of the first two, standard Choice Band Scizor requires Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes for a chance to KO. While specially defensive Rotom-W requires Stealth Rock for a chance to KO and can't even be hit by the other hazards. Calm Mind Latias can't be hit by Spikes and won't be OHKOed after just Stealth Rock. These three are incredibly common, Scizor is back at #1 in usage as of last month. In my opinion, Lucario is checked too easily to be viable, even with entry hazard support.

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