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Lucid Nightmares (Zoroark offense) [Peaked 1836 in single streak]

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Katakiri, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    958
    [​IMG]
    Zoroark RMT/Research Study
    (Peaked 1836 (-9) with a 18 Win Streak alone)

    This is a RMT stemming from my looking into how the hell Zoroark works in OU. The team is essentially the end result of everything but I've summarized everything I've learned in the hide tag below just to keep it slightly out of the way of the actual RMT.
    Results (open)
    Back in late BW1, the OU forum was working on a Community Create-A-Team project focusing on Zoroark. However, the project was eventually cancelled due to mid-construction flaws we overlooked that slowed the project to a halt and caused most users to quickly lose interest in it. With that experience in tow, I recently set out to define and answer various things about Zoroark and why it is so hard to team-build around:

    What are Zoroark’s best traits in OU?


    • After a lot of testing, I’ve found that Zoroark’s best asset to any given OU team is its STAB Sucker Punch, even more so than Illusion but partially due to it as well. To be more specific, Zoroark’s best traits in order of most important to least important are: STAB Sucker Punch, great Attack/Special Attack stats (too close to call), Illusion, Coverage, and Speed.
    • Zoroark has the unique niche of being the fastest mixed attacker with STAB Base 80 priority, which only Cacturne and Houndoom can compete for.
    • It can work as a flat-out Special Attacker but many faster OU Pokemon limit its effectiveness.
    • Illusion is still the reason why Zoroark has any business in OU even if Sucker Punch is slightly more valuable in practice.
    • Netting surprise KOs is its specialty and it thankfully has all the tools to do so on most sets.


    What impact does Zoroark have on the teambuilding process and what issues does it cause?



    • Zoroark is frail with very few resistances which make it extremely hard to get into the match in the first place. That makes Volt Switch or U-Turn support necessary to use Zoroark to its full potential. With that alone, Zoroark is to be labeled as a Pokémon that needs support but Illusion opens up new problems as using it requires Zoroark to at the very least have a teammate neutral to Stealth Rock that takes Sandstorm damage that it can disguise itself as on-switch. That seems simple enough but the Pokémon can’t be the team’s VoltTurn user either since that Pokémon is the primary way Zoroark will get into the match.
    • In short: To use Zoroark to its full potential, it requires one teammate with a specific typing for taking Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage on-switch for Zoroark’s Illusion then another different teammate with Volt Switch or U-Turn to get Zoroark into the battle safely.
    • As a priority user, Zoroark loves hazards. While Spikes aren’t entirely needed, Stealth Rock is.


    What viable sets can Zoroark apply in OU and which sets are non-viable?



    • Mixed Attacking sets are the best sets Zoroark could ask for; this includes his Swords Dance set as well. Zoroark’s biggest draws over other Sucker Punchers is his Illusion, Speed, and high Special Attack to break walls.
    • Choice Scarf has plenty of merit with Zoroark out-pacing every single Physical +1 Dragon while now having Trick to cripple stall, Volcarona, and Calm Minders.
    • As I said, Swords Dance is a very good option for Zoroark. Sucker Punch is absolutely deadly after a Swords Dance and Flamethrower threatens Skarmory and Forretress. The set is heavily dependent on Illusion to get the free turn to Swords Dance. Spikes support is needed to make the set work to it's full potential since a +2 Sucker Punch will do about 60~80% to some resistant Pokemon like Toxicroak who takes 74.03% - 87.01% from it which can be a clean OHKO with some Hazards.
    • Choice Specs is where we get into riskier territory. Zoroark still has great Speed on it's own but the Pokemon it can out-speed and KO are a little more limited without priority. It's still a great set though for Illusion abuse.
    • Nasty Plot is by far Zoroark’s worst viable tactic. Something as frail as Zoroark has no business trying to set up and sweep without some form of priority or protection with Terrakion, Keldeo, Gengar, Tornadus, and a plethora of Scarf Pokémon looming right above it on top of a weakness to priority. Even Pokémon weak to Dark like Gengar and Alakazam have absolutely no issue revenge KOing Zoroark. But even with that said, Nasty Plot shines against Stall teams as they generally won’t carry something extremely fast that can revenge Zoroark easily but that’s about its only redeeming factor.
    • I said Nasty Plot was its worst viable tactic, but now we’re into non-viable territory. Choice Band is completely non-viable. For as good as Sucker Punch is, being locked into it is complete suicide. Not only will Zoroark pay for it, its whole team will pay. You could not run Sucker Punch but Sucker Punch is the only real reason to use Zoroark’s physical attack and if it can’t use that, then there are plenty of better physical Pokémon to use like Terrakion and Weavile.


    Where does Zoroark fit into the flow of a match? (i.e. early game, mid-game, late game, a combination?)



    • Most Zoroark (Mixed, Scarf, & Specs) are like assassins most of the time, showing up once or twice a battle to completely tilt the playing field by removing key threats from the opponent’s team. This is not only how Zoroark should play but how it is forced to play due to how frail it is.
    • Zoroark is best used late mid-game and late game to pick-off weakened Pokémon.
    • Leading with Zoroark can very rarely pay off but will more often get Zoroark KOed turn one and even teams running Scarf Zoroark with U-Turn should probably have better lead options. Keeping it hidden until you need it is the best way to go.


    How does Zoroark function against different types of teams?



    • Unfortunately, Zoroark doesn’t have a lot of flexibility in what it can do no matter what kind of team it’s facing. With the exception of Choice Zoroark Tricking against Stall teams, each Zoroark set will play essentially the same against any team. It will come in on switch priority and KO something or set up then KO something.



    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    This team has a lot going on and is in fact meant to be extremely frightening in team preview because I want this team’s mind games to start even before turn 1. There’s a VoltTurn core, dual priority users (or so you'd think), a potential Moxie sweeper, a Zoroark of all things, and not a single Pokémon with less than base 105 offenses. I could lead with any one of these Pokémon and possibly take out one of my opponent’s due to them all potentially being heavy-hitters, each with a completely different list of counters...and any one of them could be Zoroark, just to top it off. Unlike most offensive teams, there’s no Deoxys-D or Forretress acting as a “free kill” just to get hazards up; every kill my opponent gets has to be earned and this team is not going to make it easy as this is an offense team with resistances that cover each other and the whole board.

    The team is the final result of a few months of trial and error while figuring out Zoroark. The ladder peak is just a single account run to see how long I could go without a loss using it. It’s just to show the team’s effectiveness in OU. I may try for a real peak some time, but I’m more interested in testing teams than climbing the ladder.

    [​IMG]

    Zoroark is fast, powerful, and can strike before you even know it’s there. This team is built around Zoroark but it is never meant to be the star. It always works in the background, manipulating the tide of battle with single blows. This is largely due to Sucker Punch being able to shave off 56~79% of any given sweeper's HP on a neutral hit. It's like a Scizor in that regard but my opponent will never know when the powerful sneak attack is coming. This has a volatile effect on a battle and can pretty easily flip momentum in my favor.

    The set I'm running is a little unorthodox as I'm not running the typical max speed Zoroark. I'm only running enough speed to beat the neutral base 100s and the rest of the EVs are balanced between Attack and Special Attack. This is mostly due to the fact that STAB Sucker Punch makes Speed rather trivial as I KO most Pokemon I choose to hit. The Special Attack still lets Zoroark OHKO CB Tyranitar with Focus Blast and have a chance to OHKO Offensive Heatran after Stealth Rock. Dark Pulse gives Zoroark a good second STAB just in case it gets burned but it's also good for wall breaking. Flamethrower is always helpful for taking on unsuspecting Scizor, Forretress, and Jirachi. But for all this to work, Zoroark needs a few disguises to help it lure in prey. I've hand-picked a couple of Zoroark's best partners to help out with that.

    [​IMG]
    These two are Zoroark's favorite disguises but they also form a rather potent offensive core.

    Brutality is the best word to describe Choice Band Heracross. With threats like Kyurem-Black roaming OU, Heracross might not seem like such a big problem but Heracross has 5 resistances and only 3 weaknesses and, to top it off, Heracross does not take recoil or stay trapped by his own attack. Ghost-types and Physical Walls are the only things that can switch into Heracross with even remote reliability and with Heracross’ typing resisting itself, this makes Heracross one of the most perfect partners Zoroark could ask for. Zoroark easily removes any and all Heracross checks and Heracross is happy to return the favor. On top of that, Latios, Rotom-W, and Scizor check or counter most Heracross switch-ins too which makes Heracross able to last the entire match, getting in for free via Rotom’s Volt Switch or Scizor’s U-Turn and firing off attacks that 2HKO resistant Pokémon.

    Heracross, aside from smashing things, can scare off a few common threats; namely Breloom and Ferrothorn. Sleep Talk and Hera's Grass and Fighting resistance should explain Breloom. If my opponent doesn’t have a heavily-invested Physical Wall that resists both STAB attacks, Ferrothorn is just a free 2HKO on whatever switches into Close Combat or Megahorn. (Megahorn does 75%~ to standard Ferrothorn iirc) In fact, Heracross is often my lead just because his typing makes it hard for most of OU to take him on. For example, Politoed is a completely safe match-up for Heracross. Scarf and Defensive Politoed can't OHKO Heracross and Specs Politoed can't out-speed yet Heracross Close Combat or Megahorn will OHKO non-defensive spreads. (Defensive Toed's Scald can't OHKO even after a CC Defense drop.)

    Latios is more commonly thought to be paired with Garchomp for a Double Dragon offensive core, but this couldn’t be farther from the truth. Latios’ partner is actually Heracross. With Heracross turning Ferrothorn into a liability for my opponent, Latios need not waste a move slot on Hidden Power Fire. In turn, Latios will switch in on the Special Attackers that may threaten Heracross while still keeping immense offensive pressure on my opponent.

    With that said, Latios' set is very standard aside from the EVs which ensure Scarf Keldeo's Hydro Pump in Rain can't 2HKO Latios without Stealth Rock, which is normally a feat reserved for Latias but Latios can do it too while still being far more powerful than his sister. He has near-perfect Dragon/Water coverage with Psyshock to break walls and Trick to cripple set-up and stall. Latios is generally my first answer to Sun teams but will generally stay back against Sand if Tyranitar is lurking about. Rain is generally no threat to this team (especially with Tornadus-T banned) so Latios is just left to clean up whatever Heracross left behind...generally generally generally. I know it's a habit. =]

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine is the first member of my support core, getting up Stealth Rock while maintaining an intimidating presence. It's my 2nd priority user that helps take down Dragons who can otherwise be a pain to deal with as well as Chlorophyll sweepers. Chople is a very mean little item on Mamoswine as it reduces his weaknesses to just Grass-types, who fear Ice, and Water-types. Without one-off moves like Grass Knot, Mamoswine has nothing to fear from Thundurus-T or Infernape and can even take on Lead Terrakion while still having enough HP to function late-game.

    Rotom-Wash is an extremely important part of the team with its nice bulk and handful of resistances. It obviously pairs up with Scizor to make a VoltTurn core and this is very necessary to give Zoroark as many opportunities as it needs to switch-in for free. The Special bulk saves me a lot of headaches since it lets Rotom take a hit from just about anything and retaliate with a Thunder Wave; this is especially nice against Volcarona who can't even KO with Giga Drain and Keldeo when I don't want Latios to come out just yet due to a Tyranitar or Scizor.

    Speaking of Scizor, a Scarf variant rounds off the team. It seems like a bit of role reversal with my Banded Heracross but deception is the game I like to play. So many Pokemon switch-in or stay in on Heracross expecting Scarf just to be OHKOed and the same goes for Scizor. Whenever Scizor is within KO range of a Lati@s and just have to laugh because it never fails to KO them first. Scarf is to get ensure I never have an issue with Gengar, Lati@s, Alakazam, or Starmie. I keep Bullet Punch just for set-up sweepers and it pairs up extremely well with Zoroark's Sucker Punch to take down just about any speedy threat. It's resistances of course are just what I needed; a Normal and Dragon resist to round off my team's resistances.

    Threats:
    OUTDATED Threat list (open)
    [​IMG] Abomasnow:

    • Mixed Attacker - Scizor can handle it.
    • Choice Scarf - Scizor would be first response but I have something to take a hit no matter what it locks into.

    [​IMG] Alakazam:

    • Focus Sash - Scizor's got it.
    • Offensive Calm Mind - Scizor.

    [​IMG] Azelf:

    • Lead - Scizor
    • Dual Screens - Scizor
    • Nasty Plot - Scizor
    • Choice Band - Scizor

    [​IMG] Azumarill:

    • Choice Band - Rotom-W or Latios can take a hit and KO it.

    [​IMG] Breloom:

    • Physical Attacker - Heracross and Latios
    • Choice Band / Choice Scarf - Heracross and Latios
    • Bulk Up - Heracross and Latios
    • Sub Punch - Heracross and Latios

    [​IMG] Celebi:

    • Tinkerbell - Scizor or Garchomp if I smell T-Wave
    • Nasty Plot Sweeper - ^ + Latios
    • Choice Specs / Choice Scarf - ^

    [​IMG] Cloyster:

    • Shell Smash - Rotom-W if I'm not locked into something that hurts it.

    [​IMG] Conkeldurr:

    • Bulk Up - Latios
    • Flame Orb + 3 Attacks - Heracross or Latios

    [​IMG] Darmanitan:

    • Choice Scarf / Band - Rotom-W or Latios
    • Life Orb - ^

    [​IMG] Deoxys-D:

    • Fast Spiker - Heracross or Garchomp

    [​IMG] Dragonite:

    • Dragon Dance - Get SR up, make it Outrage on Garchomp or hit it with Scizor, Sucker Punch. Not super reliable though.
    • Choice Band - ^
    • Mixed - ^
    • Parashuffler - Break it's Sub with Rotom then Garchomp the hell out of it.
    • Rain Abuse - Rotom-W

    [​IMG] Dugtrio:

    • Focus Sash - Not even a threat
    • Choice Band - lol

    [​IMG] Empoleon:

    • Agility - Rotom-W
    • Choice Specs - Rotom-W

    [​IMG] Espeon:

    • Baton Pass - Scizor
    • Dual Screens - Scizor

    [​IMG] Garchomp:

    • Swords Dance - Scout with Scizor and take out with Latios
    • Choice Band - Latios
    • Choice Scarf - Scizor then Zoroark Sucker Punch

    [​IMG] Gengar:

    • Substitute + Disable / Pain Split - Rotom-W Volt Switch then Pursuit with Scizor. Nothing Gengar can do about it. Free kill.

    [​IMG] Gorebyss:

    • SmashPass - Hit the switch-in with whatever I can then finish with Sucker Punch.
    • Shell Smash Sweeper - Rotom-W

    [​IMG] Gothitelle:

    • Choice Scarf / Specs - Come back when you can take a hit from anything on this team and KO back. Please do. I'd love to see it.

    [​IMG] Gyarados:

    • Offensive / Bulky Dragon Dance - Rotom-W or Latios. Sucker Punch if it actually KO's something.
    • Choice Band - ^
    • Choice Scarf - ^

    [​IMG] Haxorus:

    • Choice Scarf / Choice Band - U-Turn with Scizor and Sucker Punch if it KO's something.
    • Dragon Dance - ^
    • Swords Dance - ^

    [​IMG] Heatran:

    • Choice Scarf / Specs - Rotom-W or Latios
    • Air Balloon - ^

    [​IMG] Hydreigon:

    • Mixed Attacker - Dance around it by luring in attacks with Scizor and Garchomp/Latios and KO it with either one.
    • Choice Specs / Scarf - ^
    • Substitute - Break the sub with Scizor then KO it with a Dragon.
    • Expert Belt - Same as mixed.

    [​IMG] Infernape:

    • Choice Band / Choice Scarf - Rotom-W & Latios.
    • Mixed Attacker - ^
    • Nasty Plot / Swords Dance booster - ^

    [​IMG] Jirachi:

    • Substitute + Calm Mind / Substitute + 3 Attacks -
    • Wish + Calm Mind -
    • Expert Belt -
    • Choice Scarf -

    [​IMG] Keldeo:

    • Choice Scarf / Specs -
    • Calm Mind -

    [​IMG] Kingdra:

    • Choice Specs -
    • Rain Dance -
    • Dragon Dance -

    [​IMG] Kyurem:

    • Choice -
    • Substitute + 3 Attacks -
    • Substitute + Roost -

    [​IMG] Kyurem-B:

    • Substitute
    • Substitute + Dragon Tail
    • Choice Band
    • Mixed
    • Choice Scarf

    [​IMG] Landorus:

    • Rock Polish / Swords Dance -
    • Special Attacker-
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Substitute + 3 Attacks -

    [​IMG] Landorus-T:

    • Stealth Rock -
    • Swords Dance / Rock Polish -
    • Substitute + 3 Attacks
    • Gravity -
    • Choice Scarf -

    [​IMG] Latias:

    • Life Orb -
    • Choice Specs / Scarf -
    • Calm Mind -

    [​IMG] Latios:

    • Life Orb / Expert Belt -
    • Choice Scarf / Specs -
    • Calm Mind -

    [​IMG] Lucario:

    • Swords Dance -

    [​IMG] Magnezone:

    • Substitute -
    • Choice Scarf / Specs -

    [​IMG] Mamoswine:

    • Physical Attacker -
    • Focus Sash + Endeavor -

    [​IMG] Meloetta:

    • Relic Song Mixed Attacker -
    • Calm Mind + 3 Attacks / Substitute -

    [​IMG] Metagross:

    • Stealth Rock -
    • Choice Scarf / Band -
    • Agility -

    [​IMG] Mew:

    • Stealth Rock
    • Baton Pass
    • Nasty Plot

    [​IMG] Mienshao:

    • All-Out Attacker -
    • Choice Scarf / Band -

    [​IMG] Ninetales:

    • Special Attacker -

    [​IMG] Politoed:

    • Choice Specs / Scarf -
    • 3 Attacks -

    [​IMG] Reuniclus:

    • Offensive Trick Room-
    • Calm Mind -

    [​IMG] Rotom-C:

    • Support -
    • Choice Scarf / Specs -

    [​IMG] Rotom-W:

    • Support -
    • Choice Scarf / Specs -

    [​IMG] Salamence:

    • Dragon Dance -
    • Mixed -
    • Choice Scarf / Band -

    [​IMG] Scizor:

    • Choice Band -
    • Swords Dance -
    • Bulky Swords Dance -

    [​IMG] Scrafty:

    • Dragon Dance -
    • Bulk Up -

    [​IMG] Sharpedo:

    • Speed Boost -

    [​IMG] Smeargle:

    • Hazard Lead -
    • Baton Pass -

    [​IMG] Starmie:

    • Life Orb -
    • Choice Specs -

    [​IMG] Stoutland:

    • Choice Band -
    • Non Choice -

    [​IMG] Terrakion:

    • Substitute + Swords Dance / Salac Berry -
    • Choice Band / Choice Scarf-
    • Double Dance -

    [​IMG] Thundurus-T:

    • Nasty Plot -
    • Agility -
    • Choice Scarf -

    [​IMG] Tornadus:

    • Tailwind

    [​IMG] Tornadus-T:

    • Standard -
    • Choice Specs -

    [​IMG] Toxicroak:

    • Swords Dance -
    • Bulk Up -
    • SubPunch -

    [​IMG] Tyranitar:

    • Choice Band -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • MixTar -

    [​IMG] Venusaur:

    • Growth -

    [​IMG] Victini:

    • Choice Band / Scarf -
    • Special Attacker -

    [​IMG] Virizion:

    • Calm Mind -
    • Swords Dance -

    [​IMG] Volcarona:

    • Offensive Quiver Dance -
    • Bulky Quiver Dance / Roost -
    • Chesto Rest -
    • Substitute -


    Standard OU Defensive Threats

    [​IMG] Amoonguss:

    • Standard -

    [​IMG] Blissey:

    • Support -

    [​IMG] Bronzong:

    • Tank -

    [​IMG] Celebi:

    • Physically Defensive -
    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Chansey:

    • Support -

    [​IMG] Cloyster:

    • Utility -

    [​IMG] Cresselia:

    • Support -
    • Calm Mind -

    [​IMG] Empoleon:

    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Espeon:

    • Calm Mind -

    [​IMG] Ferrothorn:

    • Standard -

    [​IMG] Forretress:

    • Physically Defensive -
    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Gastrodon:

    • Tank -

    [​IMG] Gliscor:

    • Substitute + Protect -
    • Britscor Stallbreaker -
    • Swords Dance

    [​IMG] Gyarados:

    • Bulky Support -
    • Resttalk -

    [​IMG] Heatran:

    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Hippowdon:

    • Physical Tank -
    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Jellicent:

    • Utility Counter -

    [​IMG] Jirachi:

    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Latias:

    • Support -
    • Reflect / Refresh + Calm Mind

    [​IMG] Mew:

    • Stallbreaker -

    [​IMG] Ninetales:

    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Politoed:

    • Defensive -

    [​IMG] Porygon2:

    • Defensive -

    [​IMG] Quagsire:

    • Physically Defensive -

    [​IMG]-Rotom-H:

    • Support -
    • Choice Scarf -

    [​IMG] Rotom-W:

    • Support -

    [​IMG] Sableye:

    • Prankster -

    [​IMG] Skarmory:

    • Physically Defensive -
    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Slowbro:

    • Tank -

    [​IMG] Starmie:

    • Rapid Spin -

    [​IMG] Tangrowth:

    • Defensive -

    [​IMG] Tentacruel:

    • Substitute + Toxic -
    • Protect -

    [​IMG] Tyranitar:

    • Specially Defensive -

    [​IMG] Vaporeon:

    • Rest Hydration -
    • Wish Support -

    [​IMG] Venusaur:

    • SubSeed -

    [​IMG] Wobbuffet:

    • Max Speed -
    • Bulky -

    [​IMG] Xatu:

    • Standard -




    Triple Priority kind of takes down most threats even if they somehow find time to set up. So with the exception of Priority Sweepers like SD Scizor, nothing's going to "sweep" the team but some Pokemon like Terrakion can try to pick them off one-by-one.


    A few replays from the streak: (OLD VERSION)
    Sand 1 http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7703921
    Sand 2 http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7851129
    Sun http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7851428
    Weather-less http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7904785
    I forgot to grab a Rain replay but that might actually speak to how non-threatening Rain is to this team.

    Importable UPDATED! (open)
    Clawz (Latios) (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 204 SAtk / 52 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Trick

    Jackle (Heracross) (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Rock Slide
    - Sleep Talk

    Shleep (Mamoswine) (F) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Thick Fat
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Crash

    Donbalon (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 28 SAtk / 232 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunder Wave
    - Pain Split

    Reala (Zoroark) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Illusion
    EVs: 200 Atk / 92 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Flamethrower
    - Sucker Punch

    Goodle (Scizor) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit



  2. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,041
    Hi, cool team.

    What really troubles me is the fact that you do not have a good answer to Dragon-types. Dragonite, for example, can simply set up on 4/6 of your team if they are locked into the wrong move or simply unable to do much to it. Lum Berry means even Rotom-W is set-up on. Scarf Salamence is on the same boat as well. Scizor using a Scarf set means that it is relatively weak and it is not a good check to any of these Pokémon. A simple change to help mitigate these problems is to run a Scarf Jirachi > Scarf Scizor. Although Jirachi doesn't have a STAB U-turn, it has a few things I believe you can find useful. With Ice Punch to revenge kill Dragonite and Salamence along with other dragons, you'll most certainly become a lot less weak to them. Additionally, its Iron Head flinch hax can be very clutch in certain situations. You can even use Trick or Healing Wish to help against opposing stall or give another one of your weakened Pokémon a second chance to wreck havoc. I'm sure one of your Life Orb'd attackers would appreciate this, as Life Orb drains their HP rather easily. Even with this change, it still annoys me how easily Dragons can set up versus this team. Also, opposing Gliscor were outlined as a problem. Mamoswine can cause some harm to your team as well as it can Superpower on the Rotom-W switch and it will simply switch out of Rotom-W unless they predict a Superpower. A way to help fix these problems is to run a ChestoResto Rotom-W instead of your current set. It acts as an effective lure since it can pretend to be Choice-locked against opposing Mamoswine, and Rest of Gliscor's poison and Hidden Power Ice it to death. Specially Defensive Rotom-W isn't as needed as much in a metagame without Tornadus-T, and Jirachi can absorb Tornadus Hurricanes as well. An offensively inclined set is the most effective. Breloom switch-in's trying to Spore you will meet a nasty surprise they see the Chesto Berry, giving you a good Breloom lures as well. This means you do not need Heracross's Sleep Talk. Lastly, with this change of Rotom-W sets, you become weaker to Volcarona. The lack of Scizor's Superpower to outspeed Lucario means that you're much weaker to Lucario as well. You no longer than Thunder Wave Volarona, and basically when it hits +1 it sweeps you. Toxicroak is another threat to your team who can set up on Rotom-W or a Pokémon that is choice-locked and can dent your team. A simple way to fix this is to run a Terrakion instead of Heracross. Terrakion gives you a solid Lucario check assuming they don't run Bullet Punch, and it serves as an effective Volcarona check as well. It still has considerable brute force, and it can serve an effective role on your team. Toxicroak also falls to a well-timed Zen Headbutt. I recommend Zen Headbutt Terrakion since Earthquake doesn't KO a Toxicroak after a Bulk Up if they run some bulk. Anyways, here are the sets. Good luck.

    Jirachi (open)

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Ice Punch
    - Iron Head
    - Trick


    Rotom-W (open)
    Rotom-W @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rest


    Terrakion (open)
    Terrakion @ Choice Band
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Close Combat
    - X-Scissor
    - Zen Headbutt
  3. Mosquiton

    Mosquiton Tette

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    Hi there, nice team here!

    First I say I totally agree with the Bri's advice, your weakness to dragon is really too heavy and scarf rachi with ice punch can solve many problems, also with iron head and his ability to flinching is very useful as revengekiller.The set proposed by Bri is really good but you also have a high weakness to SwodDanceScizor that when used with some evs in speed can outspeed Rotom and mae a direct OHKO with BugBite.
    SDZor can make you seriously 6-0, so I want to make a change to the set proposed from Bri: FirePunch > Trick, in this way you will have the opportunity to stop the sweep of Scizor.
    Also you already latios with Trick and sometimes two on the same team may be useless.

    The second thing I tell you that in your team the StelthRock are really essential because they facilitate the sweep of your getting the opponent's pokèmon in KO range from your moves, so I advise you to place FocusSash to Garchomp, in this way you have the security to put rocks on the field but also the chance to make a SurpriseKill of Mamoswne or Lati@s that don't expecting the sash think they make a direct OHKO by them dragon or ice stabs.
    Last thing that i want to recommend is to put Sworddance Lucario instead of heraross this way you can take advantage from the zoroark's illusion for take a free turn for use sword dance 'cause the opponents belive to have to face Zoroark, so the oppo will switch and you can start the massacre thanks Lucario with +2 in attack making a big holes in the oppo's team.
    Lucario being of steel type has the resistance against many types, this gives him the bulkyness neessary to resist the Scizor's and lucario's priorities.
    Furthermore, not being lock on a move like Heracross, lucario has the advantage of having a freedom to move gestendosi the opponent with two priority and the stab fight from power 120.

    Sets:
    Show Hide

    >ScarfRachi with FirePunch over Zor
    >FocusSash on Chomp
    >SDOrbCario over Cross

    Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Bullet Punch
  4. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Another beautiful team Katakiri. To cover up your threats may I suggest using Mamoswine over Garchomp? You maintain the ability to setup Stealth Rock, but gain the ability to crush Dragonite and Gliscor. Should you choose to run Jolly, it also beats neutral Lucario that don't run Bullet Punch, and Scizor handles the ones that do just fine. It's a pretty simple suggestion but I think that it can fix your issues reliably, and what's more it takes the same entry hazard damage as Zoroark. I once had a team exactly like this just with Mamoswine over Garchomp, but it never really became a staple of mine. I might dig it up again though now that Tornadus is banned, as it gave the team hell. Also lovely deception with band Heracross and Scarf Scizor man ;)

    As the raters above me have pointed out, you have a bit of a dragon weakness, but mamoswine over garchomp more or less completely covers this. Again, great team and a luvdisc
  5. Livio

    Livio

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    Hey dude, really cool team! I love especially Zoroark, cause it have an awesome trait. However, Wifi (Preview) Clause, much limit his potential, and you have to play it in the best way. The team has a lot of weakness and I have much advices to give you, so let s start with the rate :).

    • First off, I can see how is slow your team. Your fastest pokemon is Scizor, that with help of Choice Scarf does not outspeed 376, in pratice it does not outspeed anyone that has like item Choice Scarf or any Booster (Dragonite, after one Dragon Dance, DESTROY completely your team). Bullet Punch can t stop it, not even 2Hit with Stealt Rock on the field (252Atk Technician Scizor (Neutral) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Multiscale Dragonite (Neutral): 15% - 18% (51 - 61 HP). Guaranteed 7HKO.
      252Atk Technician Scizor (Neutral) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Battle Armor Dragonite (Neutral): 31% - 37% (103 - 123 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO). So my Advice is to change your Scizor and use a good revenge killer. this could be simultaneous with the change of item from Choice Scarf to Choice Band. Choice Band in combo with Technician allows you to maximize his offense without need of speed. Now Bullet Punch has an increased Power, and help you to gain much more kills for example ScarfKyurem-B or Scarfkion, that before you could not HOKO. Obviously you need to change his Evs spread, my suggestion is to make it more bulky, from the moment that is your onloy steel type, and dragons could be a big trouble for your team. I think that this is the better Choice Band for you: 248HP/252Atk/8Spd. 248 guarantee you a free enter more on an eventual Stelth Rock or Spikes layer on your field.

    • About Garchomp, your set is the best that you could use, the stealth rock are fundamental to every team, even more so in an offensive team as your. The only point on which I disagree is the item, because if you are so indispensable Stealth Rock would be more prudent to use or Haban Berry, which clears the weakness to dragon types, or Yache Berry, which halves to the Ice. Although the Focus Sash might be an idea, but it would be much more useful if Garchomp was always your leader, which in the case of Rapid spinner opponent would not recommend. You must also change Outrage in Dragon Claw, it s necessary for not lock your setter


    • My last suggestion regards your Latios. In my opinion set choice specs is supplanted by what life orb, this is because, with only 20% less damage, you are not subject after one kill, easy to setup or trapkill, which succeeds very well in Tyranitar. In addition, with the same coverage of moves, you may have access to a recovery or move such as Roost / Recover or Hidden Power Fire, which would be very useful against Steel Types as Scizor (amazing bait kill) or ferrothon. So I think that you you should consider the idea of ​​using this set.

      Hope I helped you :)

      Tl;dr:

      Show Hide

      [​IMG]

      Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
      Trait: Swarm
      EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
      Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
      - U-turn
      - Bullet Punch
      - Pursuit
      - Superpower


      [​IMG]
      Garchomp (M) @ Haban Berry
      Trait: Sand Veil
      EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
      Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
      - Stealth Rock
      - Earthquake
      - Dragon Claw
      - Fire Blast


      [​IMG]
      Latios (M) @ Life Orb
      Trait: Levitate
      EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
      Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
      - Surf
      - Psyshock
      - Draco Meteor
      - Recover




  6. Cherub Agent

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    Not to rain on your people's parade, but if Katakiri uses Mamoswine he'll have three priority users which basically ensure that he will never, ever get swept by anything faster than the Pokrmon on this team. It's offensive and he can afford to sac members to deal with highly aggressive offensive threats if they're the only win condition on his opponents' team. Katakiri also has foregone any kind of setup sweeper himself, meaning that the chances of opposing Pokemon setting up are drastically decreased.

    Edit: although you absolutely must not let Volcarona set up Katakiri, as it is incredibly threatening to this team. Only Rotom can paralyze it and wear it down, and I guess Zoroark can hit it heavily with Sucker Punch, but if it's a SubDance variant or physically bulky you're in for a rough time.
  7. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

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    CA, you are spot-on with Mamoswine! It covers exactly what I need and definitely takes a lot of pressure off Zoroark & Scizor. It even covers up my slight, kind of forgotten Jolteon weakness! (Thunder + HP Ice hits the team surprisingly well.)

    I decided to try Chople Mamoswine for the moment. If Mamo's going to set up Rocks and help clean up late-game, I should try to extend it's natural longevity without sac'ing it's offenses or speed. Focus Sash just isn't too reliable for keeping him around that long. But yeah, I'm trying different sets and seeing what fits.

    No offense to Bri, but your changes were a little too drastic. I felt like after those changes, it wasn't even my team. Jirachi wouldn't really deal with Latios as efficiently as I need, especially since I know what kind of damage Specs Draco can do. Scizor doesn't take it as well as Jirachi but U-Turn is a clean KO and it has Pursuit to ensure it doesn't get a chance to hit anything else. Jirachi also doesn't cleanly end Gengar due to the lack of Pursuit. As for Heracross, like I said, he is what keeps Ferrothorn a non-issue. Terrakion has no business switching into Ferrothorn and Garchomp's not extremely threatening to it in Rain. Guts and Heracross' typing are such huge factors in why it's on the team in the first place.

    I liked Chesto Rotom though. I might rework the EVs though since I do enjoy the extra special bulk I have.

    Eh hold that thought... I need to go do some things irl.
  8. LucaroarkZ

    LucaroarkZ

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    Oh, so you wanna be a Zoroark user too? IT'S ON, Katakiri!

    Okay, on a serious note, this is a cool team and I like the formatting. I would disagree with replacing Heracross with Terrakion, though, since losing Heracross means losing the best disguise you can possibly have for Zoroark.

    However, I could potentially see Choice Scarf Keldeo being a threat. Rotom-W has a pretty good chance to be 2HKOed by Secret Sword after Stealth Rock, while Latios just isn't switching in on Rain Hydro Pumps, which always 2HKOes after Stealth Rock. I think you can fix this by running a Choice Scarf on Latios instead of Choice Specs. This isn't helping you switch in on Keldeo, but it allows you to revenge kill all variants of Keldeo with ease, while also revenge killing other threats like Dragonite and Salamence.

    That's all I can think of right now, but as I said, it's a really good team and didn't need many changes. Good luck!
  9. Cherub Agent

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    Chople berry sounds like an excellent idea actually, also doubling as a cute terrakion lure, and it greatly increases the chance of setting up SR. Might be something i'll try too, but remember to test how lo works ;)
  10. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

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    Okay so this is the first update to the team! Mamoswine has been added over Garchomp, Latios' EVs have been reworked to beat Scarf Keldeo in Rain, and Heracross now has Rock Slide instead of Stone Edge because...Stone Edge...need I say more?

    So some problems I noticed are:
    Swords Dance Scizor is a HUGE issue. (I could rework Rotom-W to better handle it.)
    No Rock resist so Terrakion can be in issue...but it rarely ever finds a chance to get in for free. Even so, it needs to be addressed.


    Jirachi was the first fix that came to mind over Scizor since it resists Steel and Rock but then I have no good switch-in for CB Scizor's U-Turn aside from Heracross who can't really tank too many hits and certainly can't risk getting clocked by CB Bullet Punch. (It can take one BP but still...)
    The only other Rock resists with U-Turn (that aren't weak to Fighting) are Primeape, Flygon, and Mienshao...not exactly the A-Team.

    So I'm stuck in an odd place here. I'm thinking I might have to change to change my support core around almost entirely. I'll try to mull it over myself but any advice would be appreciated.

    Oh! I'll update the threat list once we get over these bumps in the road since I'm certain this version won't be the final product.

    EDIT:
    Now that I think about it more, wouldn't Landorus-T pretty much fix everything? I'd lose Ice Shard priority but it takes the Dragon's Attack down and can take it out with either Ston--Rock Slide or HP Ice. He'd take Scizor down a peg and make SD much more manageable and while not a resist, he's fairly good at switching into Terrakion. I could even use it as a 3rd VoltTurner but I'd rather have HP Ice to not repeat the Gliscor issue...though I could play it risky and not run Rock Slide. I'd have to find out exactly what I miss out on hitting.
  11. LucaroarkZ

    LucaroarkZ

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    Did you just look at my team and think of copying it, Katakiri? -.-

    I'm kidding. Anyway, Landorus-T would help a little bit against Scizor and especially Terrakion, but may make you a little weaker to Jolteon (which my team is a little weak to) while running HP Ice would help as a Gliscor lure since not many people expect Landorus-T to have HP Ice. Since Scizor and Terrakion are much more prevalent than Jolteon, Landorus-T might be a good idea.
  12. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  13. Cherub Agent

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    Alright, I think that we can fix these issues. I know that I'm going to sound like a madman here, but just hear me out :)

    Just how necessary is Scarf Scizor for you? I know that you like to play your deception game (believe me my suggestion will keep with the theme) but from what I read you like having Scarf Scizor to guarantee the kill or the momentum on Starmie, Alakazam, Lati@s etc. Well, all of these are sniped by Zoroarks Sucker Punch anyway. In order to adress your issues with Terrakion and SD Scizor, I recommend changing your oen Scizor to a Life Orb version with the moves U-Turn, Bullet Punch, Roost and... Hidden Power Fire. Thanks to Technician, Scizor can customize the BP of Hidden Power to 60, this effectively amping it up to 90. With a Life Orb and a neutral SpAtk nature (this does mean that you will have to lower either one of your defenses or your Speed) Hidden Power Fire will be guaranteed to OHKO offrnsive SD Scizor after either LO recoil or SR. I personally recommend lowering you Speed with a Brave nature for the following reasons: you have priority in Bullet Punch, you'd lose the Speed tie to opposing max Speed Scizor anyway with HP Fire's lowered Speed IV, slow U-Turns help get frailer Pokemon in safely, and if you invest in HP you can use Roost more effectively. Personally I'd go Brave with max attack, enough Speed investment to beat CB/slow SD scizor and the rest in HP. I'd tell you the custom ev spread bit i'm on my phone and i know you can conjure it up anyway. Life Orb bullet punch also removes your Terrakion weakness, and Scizor can obviously still be used in conjunction witj Zoroark to check the mentioned Psychics anyway, just without the 100% guarantee of Scarf Scizor. You may also appreciate the general power boost as well when revenge killing, as chople mamoswine lacks power.

    Excuse my typing, still not used to a touchscreen keyboard -.-
    Arikado likes this.
  14. Fennekin

    Fennekin

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    Oh, my bad. It's just worded awkwardly. Also, there's something that irks me about this team. As much as I loved it at a glance, what's your answer to Drought teams? For example, once Mamoswine is dead, there isn't much you can do about Venusaur, namely Growth ones. I mean, I suppose Latios can ohko with Psyshock, but you need a good chunk of health to survive something like Sludge Bomb.

    If drought teams aren't a concern of yours, I really, really dig this team.

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