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Ludicolo (QC 4/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Zebraiken, May 6, 2012.

  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken leviathan of the year
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    Oct 7, 2011

    Ludicolo dance dance

    qc'd: erisia, Steamroll, tennisace, DTC

    • gurl look at that body
    • dance champion of hoenn
    • generally average stats, base 100 spD is the only thing that really stands out
    • two excellent rain-centric abilities and great stab moves make it amazing in rain
    • ludicrous coverage, too (thanks erisia)
    • sadly we only have 70 / 90 attacking stats to work with, and swords dance as the only boosty move
    • regardless, can shred through teams in rain (modest lo hydro pump 2hkoes every special wall in nu, can do crazy shit like ohko offensive cryogonal after SR)
    • performs as an excellent check to rain teams too, only really beaten by swanna's hurricane (and seismitoad's sludge wave to a lesser extent, it cant switch in)
    • 80 / 100 defenses are pretty good on that side, base 70 def holds it back a bit though
    • one of our few legitimate "bulky Water-types", and the only other one is really Alomomola
    • basically ludicolo is a staple of rain teams and balanced teams that want a solid rain counter

    name: Special Rain
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Rain Dance / Focus Blast
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    • literally rips teams apart under rain, and even without
    • also self-supporting, as it can set rain again on its own and has the bulk and typing to do so
    • hpump devastates every wall in the game and can often clear the path for its fellow rainy teammates
    • surf is more reliable but infinitely less powerful, makes ludi more of a lategame cleaner than a powerhouse
    • giga for other stab, recovery
    • ice beam fucks grass-types who resist ludi's stab moves
    • rain dance allows ludi to keep rain up on its own and makes it more self-supporting
    • focus blast..... is used to hit cryogonal and regice i guess, although hydro pump is more accurate and does more in rain. best to be used with surf, i guess

    • pretty basic spread, 252+/252
    • don't use timid, there's nothing important to outspeed beyond what you already do w/ modest; likewise don't invest in bulk because you really need the power
    • damp rock / lefties could be used, life orb is infinitely better
    • no other move options really, the listed moves give basically perfect coverage and you don't want to stray from them
    • okay so teammates: rain setters (volbeat, gardevoir, probopass, whatever)
    • obviously rain-abusing partners, like gorebyss, floatzel, seismitoad
    • swanna gets special mention as it breaks through opposing bulky ludicolo, something that this fellow cannot do on his own
    • hazards can push a few pkmn to the edge of ohkos and 2hkos, especially if you're running surf; cacturne, garbodor, etc
    • really not sure what else to say, lol. basically you should really use this with a rain team

    name: Bulky Attacker
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Toxic / Ice Beam
    move 4: Synthesis / Leech Seed
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Rain Dish
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 SpD

    • best rain counter available in nu by far
    • can tank even the strongest rain sweepers in rain (fun fact: it can even switch in on a Modest LO Gorebyss using Shell Smash, tank an Ice Beam (66.48 - 78.57%), and recover nearly all the damage with Giga Drain + Rain Dish + Leftovers)
    • also notably is pretty much the only fullstop to opposing rain ludicolo (giga drain does 33.79 - 39.83% to this spread and takes LO recoil, while this spread does the same amount back and gets rain dish + lefties recovery)
    • scald is for burnsies + stab
    • giga drain for recovery and fucking up all da rain
    • toxic is probably best here, since it's a reliable status spreader and that fucks up cryogonal who otherwise has a free switch
    • ice beam can be used to hit grassers, dragons (altaria) who resist your stab moves though
    • synthesis for reliable recovery, since this isn't meant to solely be used in rain it works out a-ok in general
    • however if you are fearful of synthesis only recovering 33% or you like to take advantage of stuff like lickilicky, you can use leech seed (leech seeding that and switching out is really cool cos you get a ton of health back, also leech seed forces a lot of switches)

    • spread is a solid mix of power and bulk, enough power to OHKO all non-neutral rain abusers and bulk enough to not even be 4HKOed by modest LO gorebyss in rain, counting lefties + rain dish
    • could use surf/hydro pump over scald, mostly personal preference (notable: in rain, Hydro Pump has a 56.3% chance to OHKO standard Swanna after SR)
    • speed evs could be used to try to tie standard samurott before it ohkoes you w/ megahorn but not worth detracting from its good bulk
    • is essentially spinner bait, cannot do anything to cryogonal except toxic it (and tentacool too, although that's not seen at all)
    • so carry a ghostie if you plan on using hazards
    • also despises toxic spikes/status of its own, bring a poison-type or perhaps a heal beller (skuntank can pursuit cryogonal & pick up tspikes, miltank/lickilicky can heal bell and wish or whatever, vileplume can use both aromatherapy and pick up tspikes although they share a flying-type weak)
    • while it handles rain really well, it needs a solid defensive core around it because it can't take much in the way of powerful neutral attacks (especially on the physical end). definitely worth considering physical walls + stuff to handle powerful sun sweepers like charizard (altaria?)
    • mention more stuff to the extent of defensive cores, it shares good synergy with flareon, etc

    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Ice Punch
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    • can dispose of several common rain checks/counters, including bulky ludicolo (+2 seed bomb can ohko after SR)
    • generally very unexpected and can catch an opponent off-guard, especially after they dump their physical wall to a special sweeper earlier in the match
    • however it's less common because base 70 attack is not exactly good, much better as a lategame sweeper w/ hazards up to ensure ohkoes
    • sd for boosties
    • waterfall is its strongest stab move in rain
    • seed bomb is its second strongest stab move and provides good coverage
    • ice punch gives you rly good coverage overall basically

    • don't change the spread, ludicolo needs as much power as it can get. even after a boost it's still sorta lacking
    • zen headbutt/drain punch give you neat coverage options although neither are super useful
    • nature power; dodges absol's sucker punch and OHKOes it at +2
    • needs external rain support (volbeat, drifblim, miltank?? idk give me some new rain setters to mention, maybe rotom-s since it can volt switch into ludi after setting rain)
    • needs hazard support (yeah hazard setters, w/e)
    • obviously use with rainy rain partners
    • struggling to think of other things to mention so do tell me if you think of something!

    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Toxic / Scald
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Rain Dish
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    • subseed is subseed, pretty straightforward
    • ludicolo is good at it because it has good bulk and great typing (neutrality to fire/ice)
    • it's also generally very offensive so it can force something out and prop up a sub, easy
    • also few common weaknesses
    • sub for protextion of status
    • leech seed for good recovery, gets insane recovery in rain although that only lasts eight turns or so
    • toxic allows you to wear out pkmns
    • scald can hit steel-types
    • ice beam fucks grassers who could come in on leech seed

    • could use rain dance on this set
    • could also use swsw to be the fastest subseeder in nu, although it's not as good as rain dish at all
    • forces switches, pairs well w/ hazards (although they are easily spun while ludi is still out)
    • physically defensive spread!
    • protect
    • toxic spikes are really good, can prevent sub mons from coming in for free
    • aromatherapy/heal bell support is good, because toxic means doom for ludi
    • same with something to get rid of tspikes (poison-type, or a spinner)

    [Other Options]
    • haze
    • resttalk
    • teeter dance + own tempo
    • fake out
    • choice specs
    • sunny day + solarbeam...... lol

    [Checks and Counters]
    • ludicolo counters the rain sweeper variant
    • tangela beats the sd set even w/ ice punch (+2 ice punch only 3hkoes....)
    • toxic spikes are very very good as they defeat all ludicolo sets and force it on an unwanted timer
    • swanna ohkoes guaranteed w/ bb, ohkoes with hurricane w/ sr
    • fast scarfers (cinccino, zebra) can outspeed it even in rain, although neither can outright OHKO it
    • priority in absol, ohkoes after sr + lo
    • much much much easier to deal with outside of rain
    • outside of rain anything with a super-effective attack will do a ton (ie swellow, braviary, pinsir, etc)
    • can't think of anything else

    samurott will be up tomorrow or the day after!
  2. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    Nov 29, 2011
    Well as I wrote most of these points, this looks fine... ;)

    For specific teammates, Golem, Regirock and Probopass are good for Stealth Rock as they can take Bug-, Flying- and Poison-type attacks all day and Ludicolo can take the Water-, Grass- and Ground-type attacks aimed at them with ease. Cryogonal is probably the best Rapid Spinner as it breaks through opposing Grass-types, but Swift Swim Armaldo is also cool so long as it comes in during rainy weather.

    Meanwhile, Garbodor is the best option for Spikes / Toxic Spikes in terms of defensive synergy due to its resistances and physical bulk, and it absorbs Toxic Spikes too to keep Ludicolo in for longer. Misdreavus is probably the best cleric to support Ludicolo due to its ability to beat physical threats reliably, and it's a spin blocker too so that's cool?

    Volbeat is probably the best Rain Dance supporter, as it can fire it off with certainty and can do other useful things like Thunder Wave, Encore, or Tail Glow boosts to Ludicolo. +3 Ludicolo in rain will sweep, no question. Probopass doesn't learn Rain Dance, so don't mention that. Gardevoir is also a pretty cool option thanks to Memento, but it's probably less useful overall at helping Ludicolo out, aside from beating non-Skuntank Poison-types and (alternatively) providing Dual Screens to aid a sweep. Other than that, Rotom-S, Ampharos, and even Eelektross can provide weather support and use a slow Volt Switch to get you in.

    Complementary Rain sweepers include Gorebyss, Seismitoad, Floatzel and Armaldo, and they each offer distinct advantages (Shell Smash, Electric immunity, friggin fast, Rapid Spin or Stealth Rock + Rock Blast) Seismitoad is probably the best in terms of coverage synergy, as i can't really think of anything that isn't hit by Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Giga Drain / Earth Power / Sludge Bomb other than Shedinja. Oh, mention that Shedinja beats everything other than the SubSeed set!

    If you make sure to mention some of these specific pokemon as teammates and threats in the analysis, then...

  3. Steamroll

    Steamroll MRW
    is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 1, 2011
    Lol +3 anything with decent speed will sweep.

  4. tennisace

    tennisace cardiac cats
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    Dec 16, 2007
  5. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken leviathan of the year
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 7, 2011
    Alright thanks guys, I'll try to get this written up as soon as I can.

    Actually, I wrote basically everything before remembering that I went through and had a pretty good EV spread that I wrote in that discussion thread, so then I took a few more notes from what you had said there (ludicrous!). XD

    All of those teammates sound great, though. Thanks for the input! also i asked IRC for some rain setting teammates and i think someone said probopass don't blame me
  6. DTC

    DTC I'll be your 1-Up girl
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    May 8, 2011
    Lapras is a bulky water as well. Not the most common one -- or the best -- but it's still a decent bulky water.

    Mention Life Orb in the AC of bulky attacker. Also mention that if you're using Life Orb, you should replace Scald with Hydro Pump and use Ice Beam over Toxic.

    QC Approve 4/3

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