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Ludicolo

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Blazen, Sep 25, 2010.

  1. Blazen

    Blazen

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    [​IMG]


    Water/ Grass

    80/ 70/ 70/ 90/100/ 70

    Abilities
    Show Hide

    (All ability descriptions copied from Smogon)
    Swift Swim:
    Rain doubles the Speed of Pokémon with Swift Swim. This is not a stat boost. If the rain ends or a new weather condition is brought into play, the Pokémon's Speed returns to normal.


    Rain Dish: When rain is in effect, this Pokémon heals 1/16 of its max HP at the end of each turn.

    Own Tempo (Dream World): Pokémon with this ability cannot be confused. If a Pokémon is confused and then gains Own Tempo, it is instantly cured of its confusion.


    Weaknesses/resistances:
    X .25: Water
    X .5: Ground, Steel
    X 2: Poison, Flying, Bug

    Gen V Move List:
    (Notable Moves Bolded)

    Lotad Moves:
    Show Hide
    Lv1: Astonish, Lv3: Growl, Lv5: Absorb, Lv7: Nature Power, Lv11: Mist, Lv15: Natural Gift, Lv19: Mega Drain, Lv25: Bubblebeam, Lv31: Zen Headbutt, Lv37: Rain Dance, Lv45: Energy Ball


    Lombre Moves:
    Show Hide
    Lv1: Astonish, Lv3: Growl, Lv5: Absorb, Lv7: Nature Power, Lv11: Fake Out, Lv15: Fury Swipes, Lv19: Water Sport, Lv25: Bubblebeam, Lv31: Zen Headbutt, Lv37: Uproar, Lv45: Hydro Pump


    Ludicolo Moves:
    Show Hide
    Lv1: Astonish, Lv1: Growl, Lv1: Mega Drain, Lv1: Nature Power


    TM/HM Moves:
    Show Hide
    TM01 - Claw Sharpen, TM06 - Toxic, TM07 - Hail, TM10 - Hidden Power, TM11 - Sunny Day, TM13 - Ice Beam, TM14 - Blizzard, TM15 - Hyper Beam, TM17 - Protect, TM18 - Rain Dance, TM21 - Frustration, TM22 - Solar Beam, TM27 - Return, TM31 - Brick Break, TM32 - Double Team, TM42 - Facade, TM44 - Rest, TM45 - Attract, TM46 - Thief, TM48 - Troll, TM49 - Echo Voice, TM52 - Focus Blast, TM53 - Energy Ball, TM55 - Boiling Water, TM56 - Fling, TM68 - Giga Impact, TM70 - Flash, TM75 - Swords Dance, TM86 - Grass Knot, TM87 - Swagger, TM90 - Substitute, TM94 - Rock Smash, HM03 - Surf, HM04 - Strength, HM05 - Waterfall, HM06 - Dive


    Egg Moves:
    Show Hide
    Synthesis
    Razor Leaf
    Sweet Scent
    Leech Seed
    Flail
    Water Gun
    Tickle
    Counter
    Giga Drain
    Teeter Dance


    Advantages:
    Show Hide
    Bulk: 80/70/100 is not that bad. Add to this the fact that the only super effective typing Ludicolo is likely to have to worry about is bug, and you are looking at a fairly good wall. Ludicolo also has a very wide arrangement of health recovery moves, and rain dish.

    Support: Ludicolo doesn't have the best support pool in the game, but he does have some very nice options, like teeter dance, toxic, and tickle.

    Weather Versatility: Possibly Ludicolo's biggest advantage this gen. Thanks to Ludicolos typing, and movepool he can easily function in both rain, and sun. This could set him up to counter your opponent.


    Cons:
    Show Hide
    Sand: Dispite his type advantages against rock, and ground types, Ludicolo won't stand a chance against many of the top Sandstorm pokemon.

    Nothing New: Ludicolo didn't really gain any new stuff this gen. His one new noteworthy thing is Claw Sharpen, which may be useful to setup some sets. I don't expect to see anyone making use of his DW ability though.


    Overall: Last gen saw Ludicolo as a solid UU pokemon who sometimes saw use in OU. Thanks to the advent of Droughtales, and Drizzletoed I excpect his usage to increase this gen.

    Movesets:

    Ludiwall

    Ludicolo @ Leftovers
    Calm/Careful, Rain Dish/Swift Swim
    252 Hp, 200 Sp. Def, 56 Def. (or anyother defensive EV set)

    Substitute
    Leech Seed
    Synthesis/Rest/Giga Drain
    Toxic/Boiling Water

    This set is for you to go on the defensive. Setup Subseed and wait it out. Toxic, and Boiling water are excellent choices, though both have their immunities (Particularly watch out for Heatran). Any recovery move should work well. Synthesis is especially is nice if your opponent thinks that they stopped your rain dish with the sun.
  2. Noble Cactus

    Noble Cactus

    Joined:
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    I'd go with Rain Dish for that defensive set, for extra Lefties. I believe an offensive set with Swift Swim would work well like it did in Gen 4, seeing as he's still one of the few SSers that can go the Special route pretty well (Kingdra is the only other one I can think of off the top of my head). He also has a good typing and gets great coverage. Moveset would probably be something like Surf/Grass Knot or Giga Drain (seeing as it outclasses Energy Ball now, and the health regained is nice for a sweeper)/Ice Beam/HP Fire. Now that there are better Pokémon to set Rain up with, our Mexican Colocynth can free up an attacking slot and an item slot.

    And looking at the animated sprites, I just realized that Ludicolo looks really weird with his mouth closed.
  3. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    758
    You can use Claw Sharpen to raise your Accuracy to make Hydro Pump, Blizzard or Focus Blast less likely to miss.
  4. Blazen

    Blazen

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    I was actually thinking about a moveset that could make use of his Acc. Boost from Claw Sharpen. Something like:

    Ludicolo @ Life Orb
    Modest, Swift Swim
    252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP

    Claw Sharpen
    Hydro Pump
    Blizzard/Focus Blast
    Giga Drain
  5. Doomingo

    Doomingo

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6
    Swords Dance

    Nature: Adamant/Jolly
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Item: Life Orb/Elemental Gem
    Evs: 252 Attack 212 Speed Hp 40

    Swords Dance
    Fire Punch
    Waterfall
    Zen Headbutt

    Ludicolo has access to fire punch from platinum, which is why it could actually be a good surprise scizor killer. With Jolly and this ev spread it could out run max speed scizor at full health. One could come in on a waterfall or surf from swampert, swords dance on the switch and react accordingly. This set works well in the rain or sun, after one swords dance it can OHKO a scizor with no Defense Evs in the rain with L/O Fire Punch.
    Zen Headbutt is for Gengar and other Poisons in the rain.
  6. Wynought

    Wynought

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    240
    Am I missing something or, but why not Swift Swim Sweeper set mention? :c

    Ludicolo is my favourite Pokémon and I'm so disappointed he gained no awesome niches this Gen ):
  7. MF HOUNDOOM

    MF HOUNDOOM

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    21
    Using an entire turn and moveslot just to boost accuracy seems too gimmicky, imo. However, this could make Ludi a really dangerous mixed rain sweeper. The only problem is how to divide his remaining 3 moveslots to get a good mix of power and coverage. Seed bomb, ice punch, and hydro pump?

    I see where you're going with this, but it's still stupid. Without a STAB grass move, you'll get walled to hell and back by any bulky water. Besides, Scizor can't take boosted waterfalls very well, so you don't need to check him with fire punch. Gengar sure as hell can't take rain/STAB water attacks, but Zen headbutt could be good for Toxicroak. The problem with fire punch is that if you're still in the rain, the damage is halved, so you still get walled by grass types. If sun IS up, you lose your speed boost, so you have bigger things to worry about. Plus, without an ice attack, you get walled by dragons. Water/Grass/Ice is still the way to go.

    What really interests (and frightens) me is the thought of rain dish subseeding Ludicolo with boiling water. I've taken out plenty of uber teams with Ludi BEFORE he had boiling water, so I can only imagine what kind of destruction he can cause in OU/UU with his new toys.
  8. Hikari

    Hikari
    is a Past SPL Winner

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    A unSTABed fire attack in the rain is bad and using ludicolo in the sun is stupid because he is too slow, also zen headbutt have awfull coverage and only help you to kill tentacruel (lol). Also you arent using any grass
    moves and thats one of the perks of ludicolo over other rain sweepers.

    You should use something like this
    for a SD set:


    Swords Dance
    Ice Punch
    Waterfall
    Seed Bomb

    Waterfall and seed bomb for STAB and decent coverage, and ice beam to beat other grass types (most of them survive at full heatlh though and natoreii take low damage) and dragon types (beside kingdra)
  9. leingodf8

    leingodf8

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
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    194
    I like the idea of a claw sharpen to raise accuracy, but Id go more along the lines with

    Claw Sharpen
    Hydro Pump
    Blizzard/Giga Drain
    Focus Punch/Drain Punch

    Mostly because the physical boost would help take down deticated special walls like chansey that would wall it for eternity otherwise. The accuracy will help his Special movepool and the attack boost can help him be a decent wall breaker
  10. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

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    Huh.. no retard walrein set yet?

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dish
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Boiling Water
    move 4: Giga Drain
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Rain Dish
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    Set up a sub on the switch. Stall for 32 turns with one of the greatest defensive typings in the game.
  11. Ironnicle

    Ironnicle

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2010
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    38
    I always liked the Life Orbed Late Game Swift Swimmer Set.

    Ludicolo w/ Life Orb
    Modest
    252 SpAtt/ 196 Spe/ 62 Hp

    Energy Ball (Nice stab, running of Ludicolo's usable SpAtt)
    Ice Beam (For coverage)
    Surf/ Boiling Water (surf is more powerful but Boiling Water's Burn chance is nice)
    Rain Dance

    This is what I used for my Rain Dance team. He makes a nice Late Game Sweeper and he can outspeed his common threats in the rain. His defensive stats are not that bad either, so he can take a hit and can absorb life orb damage. I think I have seen this set somewhere around Smogon.
  12. ShinyAzelf

    ShinyAzelf
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    1,393
    Claw Sharpen can also be used as a Mixed sweeper. Physical attack(s) are increased thanks tot he attack boost, and the accuracy of Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, etc is also helpful. Would that work?
  13. heroic poke

    heroic poke

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
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    100
    I was thinking:

    Claw Sharpen
    Hydro Pump
    Giga Drain
    Brick Break

    "WTF BRICK BREAK YOU SHOULD USE FOCUS BLAST!"

    Exactly. But since you're increasing your Attack anyway, how about we stick to something that's just as reliable and can break walls like Blissey? In any case, if you need to use a Fighting move in a pinch, you won't have to wait for an accuracy boost. Just a suggestion.
  14. MF HOUNDOOM

    MF HOUNDOOM

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    The whole point of using Stallrein is to rack up residual damage via hail. Rain doesn't cause residual damage. Replace giga drain with leech seed and you might be on to something.
  15. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

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    Aug 1, 2007
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    3,693
    His offenses are too average to invest in both, and you take away some of that awesome natural bulk with a -defense nature. Swords Dance sets are better for the surprise anyways, as it can completely destroy Blissey. If Blissey switches out into a physical wall, it'll be 2HKOed in the rain by Waterfall, or in Celebi's case, nearly 2HKOed by rain boosted Waterfall + Ice Punch.
  16. deluge

    deluge

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    I think Claw Sharpen + Special Attacks is quite reasonable in the presence of perma-rain.
    In the rain, Hydro Pump kills or severely maims anything that does not resist it.
    So it'll be nice not to have to cross my fingers everytime I fire it off.
  17. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

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    Oh, for God's sake, this thing doesn't have Cheer Up? this thing is the definition of cheering-up.

    On a competitive note, a pure Rain Dance abuse set needs to be implemented to reach Ludicolo's full special-sweeping potential.
  18. shipship

    shipship

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    May 17, 2008
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    The problem with that is you can simply Surf twice to do more damage.

    Hydro Pump isn't stronger enough than Surf to justify wasting a turn first.
  19. Wynought

    Wynought

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    Fucking hell.

    [​IMG]
    Nostalgia Mariachi Band
    Ludicolo @ Life Orb
    Swift Swim
    32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
    Modest
    - Surf / Hydro Pump, if you have the balls
    - Energy Ball
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power Psychic / Rain Dance


    Set up Rain. Hit things like a truck.
  20. deluge

    deluge

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    Sep 19, 2009
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    A setup move is always a "waste of a turn"; it's an investment in the future of the battle.
    If you're looking to sweep, you won't be using Hydro Pump once; it'll be your main sweeping move.

    Hydro Pump doesn't have to be twice as powerful as Surf to OHKO Pokemon Surf cannot OHKO.
    If Hydro Pump OHKOs a foe and Surf does 80% of that damage and fails to OHKO, the second Surf is a partial waste.
    (The additional potential damage is limited by the small amount of HP the foe has left)
    It is always better to concentrate your power since missing KOs ends sweeps.

    So Claw Sharpen allows Ludicolo to use its most powerful move consistently and more reliably.
    If I don't need to run Rain Dance, I'd definitely give Claw Sharpen a slot since Water/Grass/Ice is pretty good coverage already.
  21. Raptorg

    Raptorg

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    Apparently, this should work.

    With a mild or rash nature and the following EVs: 168 Att. / 252 SpA. / 88 Spe.

    Any less speed or SpA is not doable.
    The speed EVs allow it to outrun base 130 with a positive nature. Going below that is doable, but it kind of defeats the point of swift swimming if you can't outrun almost everything.
    Its SpA is so low, you can't go under the maximum.

    If you run Blizzard, bulky waters will stop you, if you run grass, Dragons will stop you..
    Is it worth it? I don't know..
  22. Wynought

    Wynought

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    OU + Ubers = Blizzard
    UU anything less = Giga Drain

    But then again Giga Drain would hit Kyogre pretty hard...
  23. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    while i like the idea of a claw sharpen set in general, i really don't think that it is worth it in the long run. think about it; while ludicolo isn't frail in the slightest, it isn't exactly the epitome of bulk. in addition, there are so many new and overpowered threats this generation that i get the feeling ludicolo will have a hard time keeping up (even though its defensive stats are slightly above average). i wouldnt exactly want to spend a turn setting up claw sharpen if only for a measly accuracy boost when there's a decent chance that i may be koed or severely weakened in the turn that i'm setting up. while permenant rain does help ludicolo, i still don't think that the accuracy boost that claw sharpen provides is enough to warrant a whole turn dedicated to setting it up, when in the meantime your opponent could be doing a whole host of things in an attempt to mess with your strategy. imo the rain dance attacker will still remain one of ludicolo's best sets during this generation; while the defensive ludicolo set looks cool, there are so many powerful threats this generation that i'm not really willing to try and wall with ludicolo when any boosted attack will easily 2HKO.

    /me gives 2 cents
  24. Murkglow

    Murkglow

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    I don't know why Claw Sharpen gets the attention that it does (Not so much this thread but in general). I suppose since that's the only thing to talk about for Ludi that people will by default but frankly I don't see the usefulness here at all.

    If you're going physical then Sword Dance is better, if you're going Special then it's just an Accuracy boost which is questionable to me. It takes up a move slot which could have helped with coverage or a slot where Sub/Protect could have gone and takes a turn to use (plus you need to force a switch anyway). I just don't see it at all.

    Anyway, I've used both the Defensive Rain Dish Ludi (in ubers) and the Offensive Swift Swim Ludi (in UU) and I don't think either is really going to lose much ground in this new gen. He'll still be as annoying as ever with Sub/Seed and still hits like a truck just fine in the Rain. That plus his rather interesting typing/STABs should still keep him a spot on Rain teams.
  25. Jiggy

    Jiggy

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    Ludicolo might be a decent Pokemon to try Bulb as a held item on. Even though it's only one-time use, Ludicolo has good STAB, would be coming in on Water attacks anyway, and has no other way to boost its Special Attack beside Life Orb, which is more reliable but gives a smaller power boost and cuts durability.



    Also, I think it's kind of cool that Burunkeru and Nattorei can both have issues with Ludicolo depending on their movesets. Burunkeru needs Toxic or Sludge Bomb to do anything, and even then Ludicolo still gets to sap from its large HP stat with Leech Seed or Giga Drain.

    As for Nattorei, 0 Attack Power Whip can only 3HKO a defensive Ludicolo with 252 HP and even as little as 4 EVs in Defense. (I'm not factoring in Rain Dish, Substitute, or Protect, but also not factoring in Stealth Rock or Spikes, so that balances out.) It 2HKOs an offensive Life Orb version with Power Whip, but the Life Orb Version 2HKOs it too with Focus Blast and is faster, so a Nattorei without Explosion has to run or hope for a miss if Ludicolo shows up on Leech Seed, Spikes, Stealth Rock or Gyro Ball.

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