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Ubers Lugia [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by canman98, Feb 21, 2014.

  1. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    [​IMG]
    QC's: 3/3 (Fireburn, Sweep, Melee Mewtwo)
    GP's: 2/2 (Legitimate Username, blitzlefan)

    Overview
    ########

    Returning to Ubers for the new generation, Lugia must once again prove itself as deserving of the title "Great Wall". Lugia possesses excellent 106 / 130 / 154 base defensive stats, and its rare base 110 Speed allows it to outspeed practically every relevant wall other than Arceus, something not many defensive Pokemon can boast. Reliable recovery in Roost and two amazing abilities in Multiscale and Pressure make Lugia an appealing package. However, Lugia has flaws that hold it back from doing its job perfectly. Its typing offers few useful resistances and multiple weaknesses, such as to Electric- and Ice-type moves, and renders it vulnerable to Dark- and Ghost-type offensive powerhouses. Also, Stealth Rock strips away a quarter of Lugia's HP and deactivates Multiscale when it switches in, making a good amount of team support required for it to function properly. Despite these drawbacks, Lugia still stands firm as one of the best walls in Ubers, and shouldn't be taken lightly if you do not carry a solid answer to it.


    The Great Wall
    ########
    name: The Great Wall
    move 1: Roost
    move 2: Toxic / Thunder Wave
    move 3: Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
    move 4: Aeroblast / Substitute
    ability: Multiscale / Pressure
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    nature: Bold / Impish

    Moves
    ========

    As one of the two Great Walls in Ubers, Lugia has the arsenal of moves it needs to do its job well. Roost can reactivate Multiscale if Lugia is above 50% health, allowing it to take a number of hits that many other defensive Pokemon would gawk at. Combined with the ability to cripple opposing walls with Toxic, Lugia can stall out a good number of attackers or render most walls dead weight. However, Thunder Wave can be used as an alternative to Toxic if stopping opposing offensive Pokemon or Lugia's own checks and counters, such as Mega Gengar and Yveltal, is a top priority. If your team has enough Toxic users already, Thunder Wave can turn Lugia into an effective parashuffler. Whirlwind lets Lugia phaze out most sweepers foolish enough to set up in front of it, including those hiding behind a Substitute. However, Dragon Tail can be very annoying to the opposing team when combined with entry hazards and Toxic, as it adds to the residual damage, but keep in mind that Lugia cannot phaze Substitute users or Fairy-types with it. Aeroblast is Lugia's STAB move of choice, letting it defeat threats such as Mega Blaziken (2HKO), Mega Mewtwo X (2HKO), and even Mega Gengar (31.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock). On the other hand, Substitute can shield Lugia from stray Toxics and can allow it to outright wall anything that can't break it, but this comes at the cost of being complete and utter Taunt bait to faster threats such as Mega Gengar or Thundurus-I.

    Set Details
    ========

    With the above EV spread, Lugia can take on a great number of physical attackers, such as Groudon, Extreme Killer Arceus, Mega Mewtwo X, and Mega Blaziken with help of the defensive buff from Multiscale. Coupled with a Bold nature, Lugia can do decent damage with Aeroblast while taking less damage from Yveltal's Foul Play. However, an Impish nature can be used if Dragon Tail is Lugia's only attacking move in order to avoid decreasing its damage output. Lugia's two abilities, Multiscale and Pressure, let it do two different things when it comes to walling: Multiscale lets it hard check or counter most sweepers by preventing them from doing considerable damage to it, while Pressure allows Lugia to outstall most walls in conjunction with Substitute, Toxic, and Roost. An alternative EV spread of 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD makes Lugia an effective mixed wall. Despite the specific EV spreads, Lugia's defenses are really flexible when it comes to investment, so you can invest in different stats depending on your team's needs without compromising too much of its overall bulk.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    First and foremost, if Multiscale is the chosen ability, be very careful when switching into Stealth Rock. Try to keep Stealth Rock off of your side of the field so that Multiscale and by extension, Lugia's walling capabilities, remain intact. Also, be extremely careful of possible Toxic users such as Landorus-T, Groudon, and Yveltal, as Lugia absolutely hates status ailments of any kind, so switch into these threats at your own peril. However, when on the field, be very generous when using Toxic or Substitute, as crippling switch-ins or warding against status conditions can be very beneficial to Lugia's overall effectiveness and longevity. Take advantage of predicted switches to come in on possible setup sweepers such as boosting variants of Xerneas or Extreme Killer, as forcing them into a corner with Whirlwind can keep your team safe and maintain your offensive or defensive momentum.

    Team Options
    ========

    Clerics are beneficial teammates as they can alleviate the status conditions that Lugia despises. The primary examples are Aromatherapy Xerneas and Sylveon, as they can remove Lugia's status conditions and deter Dark-types from switching in with a Fairy Aura-boosted Moonblast and Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voice, respectively. Stealth Rock presents a large problem to Lugia, so it appreciates teammates such as Giratina and Arceus formes that can provide Defog support, burn opposing Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp, and utilize other support moves. Hazards are integral to Lugia's ability to pressure the opponent with phazing moves, so hazard setters such as Ferrothorn, Klefki, Forretress, Landorus-T, and Dialga pair nicely with it. Natural teammates for Lugia are Pokemon that benefit from it crippling opposing walls with Toxic. Swords Dance Rayquaza and Kyurem-W are great offensive partners to Lugia as they appreciate having opposing walls weakened and offensive threats deterred. Furthermore, they can defeat the Steel-types that trouble Lugia with relative ease. Groudon can assist Lugia by fending off Zekrom and Tyranitar while setting up Stealth Rock. Fighting Arceus can take on a good deal of Dark-types by itself, including Darkrai, Tyranitar, and Dark Arceus, while also checking Kyurem-W. Yveltal can deal with Mega Gengar, defeat opposing walls with Taunt, and break past most Steel-types with a Dark Aura-boosted Dark Pulse. Finally, Palkia can reliably defeat Kyogre, fell most Steel-types with Fire Blast, and take down or cripple Yveltal with Thunder.


    Other Options
    ########

    Safeguard is a move Lugia can run to shield itself and its teammates from status for a short time. However, it takes up a moveslot that Lugia could otherwise reserve for another utility move, and a cleric can heal the entire team's status conditions. Earthquake allows Lugia to damage Steel-types immune to Toxic such as Dialga, and hurt Blaziken and Mega Gengar. However, Lugia's base 90 Attack and Attack-decreasing nature (used with Aeroblast) prevents the move from being used effectively. In the same vein, Stone Edge can be used to deal with Ho-Oh and Yveltal, but it has poor accuracy and suffers from the same problem that Earthquake does. Recover can be used over Roost to keep Lugia's Ground immunity, but Roost mitigates its weaknesses to Ice-, Electric-, and Rock-type moves, giving it more utility. Defog can let Lugia support its team by removing all the entry hazards in play, and Psycho Boost can OHKO Mega Blaziken and Mega Gengar. Unfortunately, Lugia's Stealth Rock weakness prevents it from utilizing Defog well, Psycho Boost does less damage when used in succession, and both moves are only legal with the ability Pressure.

    Lugia is an effective user of Calm Mind, as its bulk and Multiscale allow it to accrue at least one boost without trouble. However, Lugia's base 90 Special Attack is pitiful, and it faces extreme competition from Arceus formes as a Calm Mind user. Lugia can set up dual screens at nearly any point in the match, and the screens combined with Multiscale make it ridiculously hard to defeat. Lastly, Lugia can utilize a RestTalk set to replenish HP and remove status conditions. Furthermore, as phazing moves lose their negative priority when chosen by Sleep Talk, Lugia can utilize its naturally high Speed stat to quickly phaze out most walls. However, Lugia loses the ability to reliably reactive Multiscale with Roost, and the luck factor that Sleep Talk introduces can prove troublesome at times.


    Checks and Counters
    ########

    **Stealth Rock**: Stealth Rock hinders Lugia's ability to check sweepers by removing a chunk of its health and deactivating Multiscale.

    **Status Conditions**: Toxic completely ruins Lugia's ability to wall threats by breaking Multiscale every turn, and can KO Lugia if it stays in for too long. Paralysis makes Lugia slower than practically every other wall, causing it to lose an effective niche. Burns break Multiscale as well, though Toxic is more detrimental to Lugia.

    **Ghost- and Dark-types**: The ever-rising popularity of Ghost- and Dark-type threats gives Lugia a run for its money. Tyranitar, Ghost Arceus, Darkrai, and Yveltal can all either damage Lugia with their STAB moves or cripple it with their utility options (such as Pursuit, Toxic, Dark Void and Taunt), forcing it out or using it as setup fodder.

    **Bulky Steel-types**: Steel-types are immune to Toxic and resist all of Lugia's attacking options bar Earthquake. Defensive Steel-types such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, Jirachi, Aegislash, and Heatran can hard wall Lugia, cripple it with Toxic, and support their team with moves such as Wish or Stealth Rock.

    **Mega Gengar**: Mega Gengar can easily deal with Lugia, as Shadow Ball, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Shadow Tag can deter Lugia from even showing up on the battlefield. However, Lugia can phaze Gengar out with Whirlwind or Dragon Tail, cripple it with Thunder Wave, and/or potentially KO it with Earthquake or Psycho Boost.

    **Kyurem-W**: With Turboblaze and its obscenely high Special Attack, Kyurem-W can KO Lugia in one fell swoop with a Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam.

    **Zekrom**: Zekrom ignores Multiscale with Teravolt, can smash Lugia with Bolt Strike, and packs an immunity to Thunder Wave. In addition, it can pivot out with Volt Switch when Lugia flees, gaining momentum for its team.

    **Xerneas**: Defensive variants of Xerneas can outstall Lugia with Aromatherapy or RestTalk, but they can only hit back with Moonblast.

    **Kyogre**: If Stealth Rock is up, Kyogre can defeat Lugia by hitting it with a rain- and Choice Specs-boosted Water Spout as it switches in. However, Kyogre dislikes Toxic, as the residual damage weakens the power of Water Spout.

    **Mega Mewtwo Y**: Mega Mewtwo Y can Taunt Lugia and can survive three Aeroblasts afterwards, but cannot touch it unless Multiscale is broken.

    **Blissey**: Blissey can Toxic Lugia and heal off status conditions with Natural Cure. However, Blissey loses one-on-one to Substitute Lugia, as it takes two Seismic Tosses to break Lugia's Substitute.

    **Prankster users**: Thundurus-I, Sableye, and Klefki can all cripple Lugia with status moves, and the former two can utilize Taunt to defeat Lugia one-on-one. However, only Sableye can outstall Lugia as it is the only one out of the three with reliable recovery.

    Skeleton (open)

    [​IMG]
    QC's: 2/3 (Fireburn, Sweep)
    GP's: 0/2
    Overview
    ########

    • Has the bulk of an aircraft carrier
    • Base 110 Speed lets it naturally outspeed every relevant wall bar Arceus
    • Reliable recovery (got ya there, 'Tina!)
    • 2 good abilities to choose from
    • Ghost and Dark-types make its Psychic typing a liability
    • Defensive typing doesn't give it enough resistances to take advantage of
    • SR weak, which breaks Multiscale; extra support required to make Multiscale function

    Great Wall
    ########
    name: Great Wall
    move 1: Roost
    move 2: Toxic / Thunder Wave
    move 3: Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
    move 4: Aeroblast / Substitute
    ability: Multiscale / Pressure
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
    nature: Bold

    Moves
    ========

    • Roost + Toxic = stall all the things!
    • Thunder Wave can let Lugia cripple sweepers and its offensive checks and counters (such as MegaGar), and can parashuffle with its phazing move of choice
    • Whirlwind phazes out sweepers that think they can set up on Lugia without reprecussions, including Substitute users
    • Dragon Tail can be used instead to rack up residual damage, but it can't phaze Subsitute users or Fairies anymore
    • Aeroblast is Lugia's spammable STAB move, and can 2HKO MegaBlaze, MM2X and MegaGar (after SR)
    • Substitute can keep Lugia safe against possible Toxics and can outright wall things that can't deal significant damage to it at the cost of being total Taunt bait

    Set Details
    ========

    • EVs round out both defenses well, lets Lugia become an effective mixed wall
    • Bold minimizes damage from Foul Play (Yveltal I'm looking at you)
    • Pressure helps Lugia Toxic stall things, while Multiscale can let it check sweepers significantly better
    • An alternate spread of 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe with Timid can let you outspeed everything up to the base 100 Speed tier, letting you Roost or Toxic first while leaving Multiscale intact
    • EVs can be relocated to either Defense or Special Defense depending on your team's needs, and due to Lugia's extremely high defensive stats, being lacking in one of them is not as much as an issue, especially its Special Defense

    Usage Tips
    ========

    • Keep SR off field as much as possible if Multiscale is being used
    • Be very wary of possible Toxic users (i.e. Scarf Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Donner etc.)
    • However, be very generous with using Toxic or Substitute if possible, as catching a switch to something that can check you like Zekrom or Kyogre, and either hit them with a Toxic (makes Kyogre sad unless it's RestTalk), or be able to phaze out certain sweepers / checks behind a Sub and then gtfo
    • Try keeping up on predicted switches to let Lugia come in onto an incoming sweeper, and use Whirlwind if the opposing side gets too cheeky with set up moves

    Team Options
    ========

    • Clerics like Aromatherapy Xern and Sylveon (Lugia hates Toxic), as they can also take on Dark-types very well with Fairy Aura Moonblast and Pixilate Hyper Voice respectively
    • Defog users like Giratina and Arceus can get rid of SR without too much trouble
    • Rayquaza and Kyurem-W (my favs) can get rid of Steels that Lugia has trouble with, and appreciate having walls weakened
    • Things that can remove stallbreakers (MegaGar comes to mind on both sides of the conflict)
    • Groudon can stop Zekrom and Tyranitar, and can set up Stealth Rock for Loogie to shuffle
    • Fighting Arceus (ok hear me out), can deal with big-shot Dark-types like Darkrai, Tyranitar and Dark Arceus, and can check Kyurem-W and Ferrothorn
    • Palkia can help Lugia with Kyogre, and can Fire Blast Steel-types if they pose an issue (also can Thunder Yveltal)

    Other Options
    ########

    • Calm Mind
    • RestTalk
    • Dual Screens
    • Defog can be used for Lugia to support his team more by clearing all entry hazards, but has to run Pressure in order for it to be legal
    • Safeguard
    • EQ
    • Stone Miss?
    • Recover
    • Psycho Boost can OHKO MegaGar and MegaBlaze, but doesn't offer much else outside of that, and is again only legal with Pressure

    Checks and Counters
    ########
    • Ghost and Dark-types
    • Bulky Steel-types
    • Mega Gengar
    • Kyurem-W
    • Strong Electric types (Zekrom / Electric Arceus)
    • Xerneas
    • Kyogre
    • MM2Y
    • Pink Blobs
    • Prankster users (Klefki, Thundurus-I, Sableye)
    • Stealth Rock
    • Status (i.e. Toxic especially)
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  2. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    Not QC just opinion etc

    Multiscale >>>>>>>> Pressure

    Mention Defog users like support Arceus in teammates definitely. Pressure is just for stuff like Stone Edge which Lugia shouldn't have a problem with cause Roost mechanics.

    Mega Gengar is one of the best counters to this thing and needs a bigger mention.

    Move Kyu-W from usage tips to C+C

    How does Xerneas counter Lugia?

    Bold isn't for Yveltals Foul Play exactly cause Yveltal will be spamming Dark Pulse against you.
  3. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    For Foul Play, I meant defensively oriented versions of Yveltal, but yes, DPulse is more for the stallbreaker or Scarf. Xerneas can check Lugia because +2 Thunder will 2HKO with Multiscale and OHKO without, but it is a soft check at best. Thanks for clarifying Multiscale, adding Defog to team options and actually adding Thundy-I and Klefki to checks/counters because priority Taunt/T-Wave deserves its own mention imo.
  4. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    Generalized Thundurus-I and Klefki under Prankster. It does make some sense.
  5. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    Me like. I'd add Strong Electric type Pokémon (like Zekrom and the One on Whom I have done an analysis) to C/C. Also, I'd slash Aeroblast with Ice Beam and Substitute because it's more powerful than Ice Beam with higher BP and STAB.
  6. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    I was thinking about doing Zek, but it and Arc-Electric would fall under it. Not sure about Aeroblast tho, but slashed it anyways because I don't really object Aeroblast that much.
  7. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    I think a little more opinions should be needed in order for this to go into QC. Just don't feel too comfortable with the info right now imo, but will look over teammates and playtest the Great Wall even more to think of good tips.

    Edit: Thought of more teammates, tips with Toxic and Sub, and added Defog to Moves section and not a main slash. I think this is ready enough for QC to look over, since I think Lugia should primarily stick to walling or defensive purposes.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  8. Piexplode

    Piexplode I COULD BE BANNED!

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    Defog really should be OO since it's basically terrible on Lugia when it's the pokemon that actually requires the support from it.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Um, best Lugiass set is
    -aeroblast
    -roost
    -toxic
    -whirl/defog

    Aeroblast lets you check mmx and 2HKOs mega gar after SR. Whirl is nice with Mscale to check geoxern including sub variants and defog is defog, although Lugiass is a lot worse at using it now that toxic is on a lot of SR setters. Lugiass nedds a lot of team support because it can't touch steel types without hazards up (eq is piss weak) but wants defog support to keep SR away. Rapid Spin can help but there's not really too many good users besides Forry and Exca so it's tough. Then there's the status sponges like spdef kyogre and bulkyxern that it can't touch either if no hazards. :/

    Also, whenever i use Lugiass I creep Palkia(garchomp) and pour the rest in some defense.
  10. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    I disagree, Defog Lugia blows and should not be slash on some kinda best set. Aeroblast is really nice though, and definitely deserves a slash. Lugia's EV spread is iffy, there are a lot of routes you can take, I'll get back to this. Other than that, Lugia is great Thunder Wave user, and Thunder Wave also wrecks overeager Gengar on the switch. Substitute is also pretty good, if you have hazards up you will force in your opponents Defog user to prevent hazards shuffling. When the support Arc comes in, you Toxic it while easily outstalling it. Compare this to gen5: if your opponent faced sub Lugia, he/she would just switch in their spinner which is Toxic IMMUNE (Forry, Tenta, Exca- Cloy has icicle spear to fuck all with the sub) and usually carries spikes as well meaning Sub Lugia would just be relegated as hazards/spin bait. Things are different now as the conventional removal of hazards is Defog, and Arceus being the best user. Therefore I'd say the set should look like this:

    -Roost
    -Toxic
    -Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
    -Aeroblast / Substitute / Thunder Wave

    Yeah sure if you don't run Aeroblast, MMX will taunt you to hell but MMY beats you regardless. Dragon Tail is still usable if you want to check both, but it should generally be used with Thunder Wave to put a halt to Geomancy Xerneas (without Sub).
    Alert to Sounds and Piexplode like this.
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Fair enough

    Dtail and Twave I'm not totally sold on cause you are likely going to be using Lugiass to check Geoxern and losing to Sub just sux. Sub is cute but it's so hard to fit without being weak to mega gar. :( TBF though, losing to all the toxic in the tier sucks ass too. Lugiass is pretty much always fucked by somehting common, lol. It's hard to do the aggressive hazards shuffling is hard when you want SR off but I guess you could just say fuck using Lugiass to check shit and just focus on abusing hazards and the fact everybody uses Defog now. (which actually sounds pretty damn good seeing as they clear their own SR stopping the spikes shuffling which lets you reset the scenario pretty easily)
  12. Piexplode

    Piexplode I COULD BE BANNED!

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    You shouldn't use lugiass to check geoxern really cos it's so unreliable with rocks. Either way you need
    Roost [obvious must]
    Toxic/T-wave [Status is ur purpose]
    Aeroblast/D-tail [You need a way to not be fucked over by gar- remember it can carry taunt too]
    Whirlwind/Sub/2nd status [Last move to suit ur team]
    Defog is basically shit on it, don't use it.
  13. Valzy

    Valzy Destroyer of Worlds
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    These options, while definitively not the best option, do have small niches and might be worth putting under other options:


    Recover is an option (although generally a worse one) over Roost, which allows Lugia to keep its ground immunity

    Psycho Boost lets Lugia OHKO Mega Gengar and Mega Blaziken, but has little utility outside of that.
  14. Piexplode

    Piexplode I COULD BE BANNED!

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    I'd add MM2X to the list of utility for psycho boost.. the only real issue with that is that the more u use it the more ineffectual it becomes, but generally I think that's still an important consideration.
  15. canman98

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    Much input. Such update. I still like Loogie as a nickname tho

    Also, I am aware that the spread is outdated, but I also added MM2Y as a check
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2014
  16. Valzy

    Valzy Destroyer of Worlds
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    Actually Aeroblast hits much harder on MM2X:
    0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mewtwo X: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    0 SpA Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mewtwo X: 138-163 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    The worst part about Psycho Boost is that you can't use multiscale since it's a XD exclusive move

    However, it's also useful against Terrakion, having a 62.5% chance to OHKO while Aeroblast only 3HKOs.
  17. AceSat

    AceSat

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    In oo please put earthquake. I ran it last gen and it was fairly usable. Imo it doesn't deserve a slash. It can deal with steel types that resist toxic, and does heavy damage to mblaze and mgengar. It's of note that it is especially useful against special defensive dialga. I'll bring calcs later.
  18. canman98

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    Added EQ. It would do well against Dialga on paper, but Loogie's base 90 Attack is pretty much ass compared to other coverage moves run by Arceus, especially with a -Attack nature.
  19. AceSat

    AceSat

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    That is true I ran a negative spa nature during that time. But yeah 90 base offensive stats are pretty meh.
  20. canman98

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    The EVs on Loogie are very outdated, but I wouldn't care too much if they were effective. However, both Hack and MM2 have mentioned alternative EV spreads for the Great Wall set, so I think input should primarily be focused on that instead of OO (except if QC checks occur obv). Just saying.
  21. sammao

    sammao

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    I think a fast ev spread (timid nature with max speed) should be mentioned somewhere, at least in OO if not set details.
  22. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Max speed is redundant, unless you want to speed tie with Gengar before it Mega Evolves (which is pretty meh and you'd need to run Psycho Boost to OHKO). A spread with 176+ Speed and 80 Defense deserves mention in Set Details though, it lets you outspeed everything up to Palkia, allowing you to Roost back to Multiscale before a lot of stuff attacks.

    Also, the main spread should have 176 Defense EVs, you're currently not using all available EVs.

    Will comment on this in more depth later.
  23. canman98

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    Good eye! Changes have been made.
  24. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    I would slash Thunder Wave with Toxic - double status Lugia gets borked too easily by Taunt and still gets abused by Steels, I don't think there is ever a reason to run both.

    Aeroblast also hurts Mega Blaziken who is a pretty significant target so mention that.

    I think this is fine otherwise.

    QC 1/3
  25. canman98

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    Changes implemented.

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