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Lugia Revamp GP 2/2

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by trickroom, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Removed Gyarados, edited with GP 2/2, ready for upload

    [Overview]

    <p>Boasting the title as the Great Wall of the Pokemon world for four consecutive generations, Lugia's titanic defenses and exceptionally high Speed allow it to stall out a large portion of the Ubers metagame, ranging from the legendary Extreme Killer Arceus and Rayquaza to more obscure threats such as Venusaur. Unlike most walls, this flying beast is able to take both physical and special hits like a champ, sometimes even stalling out powerful STAB super effective hits with the help of Reflect or Light Screen. However, Lugia is not without flaws; it is not only total Spikes bait, but is also completely powerless against bulky foes. With newcomer Kyurem-W joining the metagame, Lugia might not enjoy its life as a wall just like it could in the past.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Great Wall
    move 1: Roost
    move 2: Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
    move 3: Ice Beam / Substitute
    move 4: Toxic / Reflect
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold / Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Lugia's defenses are very tough to crack, but it is more suited to be a physical wall. With the listed combination of moves, it can function as an excellent counter to some of the top threats in the Uber metagame, including but not limited to Groudon, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Normal Arceus, Giratina-O, Genesect, and some Palkia, Latias, Latios, and Dialga. It also gets Leftovers as an additional recovery so it will not get worn down by passive damage as easily as Arceus. Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes is huge in Ubers because the metagame is heavily Spikes-based. Access to Dragon Tail allows Lugia to phaze through Taunt, which is something defensive Arceus wishes it could do.</p>

    <p>Roost is Lugia's most important move because its main role is to stall out the opponent. It provides reliable healing and cancels out its weaknesses to Rock-, Electric-, and Ice-type attacks for a turn, which Lugia can often take advantage of due to its great Speed stat. This is particularly useful when trying to stall out dangerous opponents such as Zekrom or Kyurem-B using Fusion Bolt. If you are not a fan of Whirlwind leaving Lugia exposed to Taunt, Dragon Tail is an acceptable alternative to phaze through it and deal a little damage in the process. Keep in mind that Dragon Tail cannot phaze through Substitutes, and with Lugia's pathetic offenses, this can prevent Lugia from stopping sweepers abusing Substitute such as Giratina-O.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>When using Whirlwind, Ice Beam is the preferred option to deal direct damage to the Dragon-types Lugia is famous for countering. Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Salamence are all easily OHKOed by Ice Beam after a layer of Spikes or Stealth Rock. Nevertheless, bulkier sweepers not weak to Ice such as Mewtwo and Arceus can easily shrug off Ice Beams. If you are using Dragon Tail over Whirlwind, Substitute becomes a decent option to prevent status such as Toxic from crippling Lugia. Once poisoned, Lugia is rendered useless as it can no longer stall out opponents due to the increasing damage. Substitute also allows Lugia to PP stall the opponent with ease.</p>

    <p>There are many options for the last slot as Lugia has a wide movepool. Reflect allows Lugia to bolster its Defense stat to counter powerful physical sweepers such as Groudon and Arceus more efficiently. This is especially important when Lugia is trying to stop Zekrom or Swords Dance Groudon due to their high base Attack stat and possess super effective moves to hit Lugia with. Reflect can be used to its fullest extend with a faster EV spread. If you are not a fan of Whirlwind, Toxic can be used. Toxic is Lugia's only way of dealing real damage to bulky opponents, and works well with Lugia's stalling prowess. When the opponent can no longer be forced out, Toxic works as a great solution such as when facing end game Swords Dance Arceus. Earthquake can also work in the last slot as it allows Lugia to strike at Zekrom, Heatran, and Reshiram switch-ins, all of which are key stallbreakers, so weakening them as fast as possible can be a game-changer. If you do not mind losing Ice Beam, a combination of Toxic and Reflect together with Roost will help Lugia defeat end-game Swords Dance Arceus all of the time bar a critical hit.</p>

    <p>The EV spread listed above is best to maximize Lugia's ability to stomach physical attacks—for example, a Lugia with this EV spread can never be OHKOed by a Life Orb-boosted Outrage from Rayquaza at +1 Atk after Stealth Rock damage, and it can also take on sun-fueled Sacred Fire from Ho-Oh; however Reflect is needed to outstall Ho-Oh. It also ensures that standard Extreme Killer Arceus is unable to 2HKO with a +2 Silk Scarf boosted ExtremeSpeed after Stealth Rock as long as Lugia uses Reflect on the turn it is hit. The Special Defense EVs also ensure that Lugia will rarely be 2HKOed by an unboosted Thunder from Timid Palkia, factoring in Leftovers. However, an EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly or Timid nature is also reasonable. It allows Lugia to outspeed Terrakion, giving Lugia time to throw up a Reflect before it can use Stone Edge, and it allows Lugia to take on Garchomp, Swords Dance Rayquaza, Kyurem-B, and mixed Palkia and Dialga more effectively. It also allows Lugia to speed tie at worst with Latias and Latios, and with Roost, both of them are easily outstalled as long as the weather is not rain. The faster spread will work best with Multiscale, so Lugia's decreased bulk will not be so significant. A fast Roost can also allow Lugia to activate Multiscale before the opponent gets to attack and this can prove to be very important when facing powerful threats such as Choice Specs Palkia. 96 Defense EVs and a Defense boosting nature are already sufficient for preventing a Jolly Dragon Dance Rayquaza +1 Outrage from OHKOing after Stealth Rock and one turn of Leftovers. Max HP and Def is also a fine EV spread if you don't care about the additional Special Defense, while surviving +1 Outrage from the rare Adamant Rayquaza 100% of the time. If you like a balance of bulk and Speed, a spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe can be used to outrun everything up to Modest Kyurem-W, while also providing optimum bulk to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Scarf Salamence's Outrage even after Stealth Rock and sandstorm or hail damage. Go any faster and you might as well just use max Speed because that sacrifices too much of Lugia's bulk already. Both of Lugia's abilities work well for this set depending on your team's needs.</p>

    <p>Toxic is probably Lugia's biggest hindrance, followed closely by Stealth Rock. The former renders Lugia incapable of walling anything due to the ever-increasing poison damage, while the latter slices 25% of Lugia's HP away every time it switches in, and it breaks Multiscale too if you choose to use it. Thankfully, Forretress is immune to Toxic and can also make use of Rapid Spin to clear Stealth Rock from the field, giving Lugia more freedom in switching in to absorb blows. Forretress is also capable of setting up entry hazards to help weaken foes alongside Whirlwind and Dragon Tail. Excadrill and Tentacruel are also excellent partners for Lugia as they are both immune to Toxic and have access to Rapid Spin and the latter with the ability to setup entry hazards as well. Cleric support from the likes of Blissey is also great in making sure Toxic doesn't cripple Lugia.</p>

    <p>Lugia is generally threatened by fast sweepers not weak to Ice Beam and which are capable of hitting it with powerful STAB super effective moves, namely Darkrai. Dark Void will block Lugia's attempts to phaze it out by lulling it to sleep, giving Darkrai a chance to obtain a Nasty Plot before destroying Lugia with a boosted Dark Pulse. Tyranitar and Magnezone also completely wall Lugia without Earthquake, and can easily cut it down using Stone Edge or Thunder, respectively. However, both of them have to beware of getting out stalled by Roost and Pressure. Lugia is also completely incapable of doing anything to defensive threats such as Chansey and Blissey, who can just cripple Lugia with Toxic and sit there until it succumbs to the debilitating poison. Wobbuffet can trap Lugia with Shadow Tag and turn it into setup fodder using Encore. Forretress and Ferrothorn can also come in and set up whatever they want on Lugia, as Lugia can't really hurt them. Lugia cannot spinblock the entry hazards it loves, so a spinblocker is recommended as a partner, although keep in mind Ghost-types share some similar weaknesses with Lugia. Kyogre and Zekrom pack super effective Electric-type attacks to annihilate Lugia. Kyurem-W is another major threat to Lugia as Choice Specs Ice Beam coming from Kyurem-W will always OHKO standard Lugia. Xatu prevents Lugia from doing anything if it lacks Ice Beam thanks to Magic Bounce. Groudon handles most Zekrom and Magnezone with ease thanks to its immunity to Electric-type attacks and great defenses, and the sunlight it brings with it makes Thunder less of a worry to Lugia. Tyranitar and Blissey also have little hope of getting through Groudon although Blissey can cripple Groudon with Toxic. Fighting Arceus, with its impressive defenses and resistances, handles Darkrai, Dark Arceus, Kyurem-W, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn very well, and is capable of using Forretress as setup bait, as long as the bagworm lacks Toxic. Palkia can come in on Kyogre with ease and blast it away with Thunder, and it can also use a mixed set to lure in and take out Wobbuffet. Genesect is capable of revenge killing Darkrai, Tyranitar, Kyurem-W, and Zekrom while also sharing great typing synergy with Lugia.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunder / Whirlwind
    move 4: Roost
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Calm Mind Lugia might seem outclassed by Arceus at first, who is faster and boasts better offenses, but this is simply not the case. Lugia, unlike most of the Arceus formes, can hold Leftovers, meaning Lugia can continue boosting without needing to use Roost as frequently. With Multiscale, (eventually, Multiscale will not be 'new') Lugia has more initial setup opportunities and can switch into attacks better than Arceus can. If you choose to run Pressure instead, Lugia can become a PP stalling machine and allows it to win the war against opposing Calm Mind users such as Latias. Due to the prevalence of low PP moves in Ubers such as Spacial Rend, Pressure can be extremely useful even on a set like this because Lugia retains much of its bulk.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is Lugia's main attack on this set. Although Lugia's Special Attack is mediocre, Ice Beam will still do plenty of damage after a few Calm Mind boosts, and the super effective coverage it has on Dragon-types is a huge plus. Thunder is a great move to use in general thanks to its solid base power and high paralysis rate. With Thunder, Lugia zaps Kyogre and Manaphy for good damage while getting a decent smack on Steel-type Pokemon, giving Lugia a way to get past its usual checks. Whirlwind can also be used to stop other Calm Mind users from setting up on Lugia, if one is willing to forgo the added type coverage. Whirlwind is particularly effective thanks to Lugia's immense bulk, as it is capable of taking hits from opposing boosters and removing all of their boosts through Whirlwind. With Whirlwind, Lugia can also abuse damage from entry hazards to weaken its usual counters before attempting a sweep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>If you really hate certain Steel-types, Earth Power can be used instead. It blasts Excadrill, Heatran, and Magnezone to pieces while landing a solid smack on Reshiram and Tyranitar. Either way, both moves have great type coverage when paired with Ice Beam. However, it is generally not worth it to use Earth Power simply because Thunder offers better utility in general while Whirlwind allows Lugia to take advantage of its bulk. Psyshock is another interesting option for this set. It allows Lugia to beat pink blobs, Tentacruel, and opposing Calm Mind users, including Arceus, Latias, Kyogre, and Manaphy without phazing them out. However, Lugia loses great coverage and phazing prowess when using Psyshock. Certain Arceus forms, especially those dangerous to Lugia such as Dark and Steel, are not harmed by Psyshock. Aeroblast is a very powerful STAB but it has horrible PP and Lugia being a defensive pokemon in general hates losing PP so quickly. Substitute can go over Thunder if you really hate status and Ferrothorn. Surf destroys Excadrill, Heatran, and Ground Arceus in the rain but is pretty useless otherwise because it is weather dependent and does not have good neutral coverage.</p>

    <p>In addition to being hampered by all of the Pokemon that trouble the previous set, other Calm Mind users, such as the Arceus formes (Dark, Electric, Ice, Ghost, and Rock), can easily beat Lugia one-on-one due to their better type matchup or offensive stats. However, Arceus might lose if Lugia runs Whirlwind because all of them cannot quickly dispatch Lugia, especially if Lugia has Multiscale. Blissey can handle most kinds of Calm Mind Arceus with ease thanks to Toxic. While Kyogre fears boosted Thunders, it can threaten Lugia back with powerful Thunders of its own. Kyogre is easily dealt with by Scarf Zekrom and Grass Arceus thanks to their superior Speed, powerful super effective STAB moves, and resistance to Water-type attacks. Forretress and Tentacruel can also set up Toxic Spikes, which greatly hampers most of this set's counters by putting them on a timer so they won't be able to bother Lugia as much anymore. Excadrill can support Lugia by defeating Tyranitar and Zekrom. Kyurem-W is not as threatening to this set but a Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam can still be an issue. The pink blobs and Jirachi can wall Kyurem-W and support Lugia with Wish.</p>

    [Pressure vs Multiscale]

    <p>Due to Lugia's already insane bulk, Multiscale is not always the superior ability for Lugia. While Multiscale is a great ability, Pressure can be just as useful, because Lugia is a stalling machine and depleting the opponent's PP as quickly as possible can be crucial to Lugia's success. However, Lugia can only outstall certain threats by using Pressure such as Ho-Oh and Zekrom. If Lugia has Multiscale instead, it cannot PP stall Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire, Groudon's Stone Edge, and Zekrom's Bolt Strike as quickly, and the use of Substitute goes well with Pressure. Due to Lugia's naturally high Speed, Pressure can also let Lugia abuse Substitute and stall out enormously powerful hits such as Choice Specs Kyogre's Water Spout, which has only 4 chances. Multiscale is not really reliable because it activates only at 100%, and Lugia is also weak to Stealth Rock making this feat easier said than done. Pressure, on the other hand, is always active. Using Pressure also allows Lugia to fare better against Kyurem-W because it can use Substitute a few times to sap up all the PP, and Roosting when necessary. Timid Choice Specs Ice Beam only does 47.6% - 56.3% to 252 HP Lugia, so it can stall that out with the combination of Roost + Substitute and Pressure as long as Lugia is faster.</p>

    <p>However, Multiscale has its own fair share of advantages as well. With the ability, Lugia becomes a solid answer to Baton Pass teams because a +2 Thunder from Life Orb Dialga cannot even come close to OHKOing Lugia. Multiscale is also great for Lugia to tank the initial hit, such as when taking a +4 Arceus ExtremeSpeed before phazing it out. Substitute + Multiscale is another interesting combination, as when used together, Lugia's Substitute can survive even very powerful hits such as Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire. Multiscale halves damage only at full health, but when active, it allows Lugia to stall out even Choice Specs Palkia's Hydro Pump in the rain or to survive something like +2 Groudon's and Terrakion's Stone Edge. Multiscale will give Lugia the upper hand when trying to counter end-game Swords Dance Arceus because Pressure will be near useless in that case; an unboosted Attack from Arceus does not come close to 3HKOing Lugia.</p>

    <p>Unlike Dragonite in OU, Lugia's lack of offense and extremely high defenses deter the use of sheer power to take it down, instead attracting Toxic to bypass them. This in turn makes Multiscale less effective. However, if you do usually use brute force to take Lugia down, you might be extremely annoyed at how well Multiscale Lugia just soaks up hits. The Calm Mind set will generally prefer Multiscale if you just wish to sweep your opponent better and get more setup chances.

    <p>In the end, it is up to your team preferences. Both abilities have their own advantages but the Calm Mind set will enjoy the extra buff from Multiscale more than the Great Wall set. Fast Lugia spreads also work better with Multiscale but is still usable with a bulky spread. Pressure is a useful ability for a titanic wall like Lugia and is great for all out stalling the opponent to death.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Because Garchomp and Groudon will pretty much never switch into it, Thunder Wave is an excellent support move for Lugia. It can help slow the opponent's sweepers and revenge killers, paving the way for a slow Pokemon such as Groudon to sweep. However, Lugia's real use is in stall teams in which Toxic is generally the superior status to use. A specially defensive set can be used with Light Screen to take on certain sweepers such as Mixed Rayquaza and Mewtwo more effectively. Light Screen amps up Lugia's Special Defense even more, making it nigh impossible to break with special attacks. With Light Screen in effect, Lugia can even wall Specs Kyurem-W with Roost easily.</p>

    <p>Safeguard is also an option to give Lugia status protection and support for the team but it does not block Leech Seed. Shed Shell can be used as an alternative item choice to stop Wobbuffet from turning Lugia into setup bait but it is not worth it to sacrifice passive recovery from leftovers. Weather Ball combined with sunlight allows Lugia to fry Excadrill, Forretress and Ferrothorn, which is very useful as otherwise, they can use Lugia as setup bait.</p>

    <p>By running a moveset of Rest / Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail, Lugia can use an interesting tactic known as Speed Shuffling. Sleep Talk cancels out the negative priority of phazing moves, and because Lugia learns both Whirlwind and Dragon Tail, Sleep Talk will have a 66% chance of forcing the opponent to immediately switch out, which Lugia can abuse entry hazards for devastating effects due to its high Speed. Although Rest activates Multiscale 100% of the time, it only helps soften the initial hit, and Lugia is better off just using Roost. Lugia's walling capabilities will also be severely hampered when relying on Rest for recovery. However, this set cannot touch anything with Taunt and will often be put into a tough situation if Sleep Talk does not select a phazing move, so usage is generally not recommended.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Darkrai is usually a great answer to Lugia, as Lugia can't really hurt Darkrai due to its pathetic power. As Darkrai is a frail and offensive pokemon, it does not really mind being Toxic poisoned. Darkrai carries STAB Dark Pulse to OHKO Lugia once it gets up a Nasty Plot with the help of Life Orb. Kyurem-W has an extremely powerful STAB Ice Beam to OHKO almost any Lugia variants as long as Lugia does not get the chance to use Roost or Light Screen. Scarf Kyurem-W can safely 2HKO Lugia with Ice Beam while laughing at Lugia's own Ice Beam, although Dragon Tail combined with entry hazards can easily wear Kyurem-W down. Even though Tyranitar risks being outstalled by Reflect and Toxic, it has powerful STAB Stone Edge and Crunch to deal major damage to Lugia. Tyranitar is a much better counter to the Calm Mind set as it does not fear weak Ice Beam and Thunders. Kyogre and Zekrom carry mighty Water- and Electric-type STAB attacks that are just too powerful for Lugia to handle. Choice Scarf Zekrom is generally the best set to deal with Lugia because it can outrun and quickly knock out Lugia with Bolt Strike before it gets the chance to use Substitute or Reflect. The pink blobs also completely wall Lugia and can outstall it with Toxic while laughing at Lugia's attempts to hurt it; beware of Substitute as it will turn the tables as both blobs rely on Toxic to kill Lugia. Reshiram, although it dislikes Calm Mind variants, can come in and roast Lugia alive with Blue Fire provided the weather is sunny. Heatran is in a similar position. Although it fears Earth Power and Earthquake much more than Reshiram, it doesn't care about Toxic and can even Taunt Lugia to stop it from healing itself. Skarmory can freely setup Spikes on Lugia but will loath Thunders coming from the Calm Mind set. Forretress can take on any attack barring a Weatherball in the sun, and use Lugia as Spikes bait or wear it down with Toxic. It can also use Rapid Spin to remove all the entry hazards Lugia uses to wreck havoc. Jirachi can also squander any attack from Lugia and cripple it with a Toxic of its own. Lastly, Choice Band Kyurem-B can 2HKO all Lugia versions with Outrage while easily taking Ice Beams or Thunder as long as Lugia lacks Reflect.</p>

    <p>Toxic absolutely ruins Lugia's walling abilities, so simply hitting it with the debilitating Poison-type move will leave it crippled and near useless. Stealth Rock also isn't fun for Lugia either. Losing 25% HP on every switch-in really messes up Lugia's ability to take hits. However, Lugia can foil Toxic attempts with a faster Substitute.</p>
  2. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    [qc]1/3[/qc]

    trust in trickroom
  3. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    [QC]2/3[/QC]

    trickroom is the fucking best. Just emphasize, like you said, that it's SUPER hard to take Lugia down, but it's a total setup bait.
  4. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Uh just Spikes bait, Lugia phazes through any other Attacker with Whirlwind for Sub and Dragon Tail for Taunt.
  5. Hugendugen

    Hugendugen Noam Chompsky.
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    [QC]3/3[/QC]
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
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    This is ready for GP checks. Poppy wanted to be the first to check it though. If anyone wants to expand Pressure vs Multiscale that is fine but the analysis is huge already.
  7. mikel

    mikel frizy will carry ocn
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    before poppy posts his check, would you be able to replace all <p> at the end of paragraphs with the correct closing tag </p>; it won't render properly on browsers otherwise (also pressure v multiscale is missing a </p> at the end altogether).

    also it's [Other Options] and [Checks and Counters], not in all caps
  8. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Thanks, I fixed those. Sorry I forgot how to write analyses. I will add in Poppy's check first then.
  9. polop

    polop
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    Wait its not too late to post ideas to go in the analysis right? I didn't actually get to read this until now due to lightning fast QC X_X.

    You mentioned that Lugia loves Entry Hazards but you forgot that it doesn't spinblock (one if its largest flaws IMO, in fact its even setup for spinners unless its special (runs EQ / HP Fire), I think a tiny mention of the fact it likes Giratina-a, Giratina-o, and Ghost Arceus support should fill the gap for that.
    Safeguard doesn't block Ferrothorn's Leech Seed though :P, which is probably the reason most people use Substitute (well that and most people like the ability to scout super powerful choiced moves and stall out Bolt Strikes (lol) but Safeguard doesn't consume 1/4 of your HP and transfers onto fellow party members so...). Emphasizing that Substitute allows Lugia to bypass Ferrothorn leech seed would be nice.

    Sub CM Lugia is quite decent too IMO, while its probably doesn't deserve a slash on the main set it does allow Lugia to evade Ferrothorn Leech Seed and random Toxics. Its not the most worthless idea in the world. I support Substitute getting an AC mention of the CM. The only issue is even at +6 Ice Beam is WEAK, I mean it doesn't 3HKO Chansey IIRC X_X. Thunder can alleviate this to an EXTENT I guess, although Lugia can just pp stall Chansey thanks to pressure (lol). QC can kill this idea though and I'll be fine with it.
  10. SapphSabre777

    SapphSabre777

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    You may want to mention Surf/Hydro Pump in the additional comments of the Calm Mind set. When paired up with rain and/or a CM boost, Surf/Hydro Pump can do a good bit of damage to things weak to it. However, it is like Aeroblast; horrible PP for a defensive Pokemon. Your choice.
  11. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    Diff is being a little poop so I'm giving you the mostly copy/pasta version. There are a few comments in orange.
    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Boasting the title as the Great Wall of the Pokemon world for four consecutive generations, Lugia's titanic defenses and exceptionally high Speed allow it to stall out a large portion of the Ubers metagame, ranging from the legendary Extreme Killer Arceus and Rayquaza to more obscure threats such as Venusaur. Unlike most walls, this flying beast is able to take both physical and special hits like a champ, sometimes even capable of stalling out powerful STAB super effective hits with the help of Reflect or Light Screen. However, Lugia is not without flaws, the main ones being total Spikes bait, and is completely powerless against bulky foes. With newcomer Kyurem-W joining the metagame, Lugia might not enjoy its life as a wall just like it could in the past.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Great Wall
    move 1: Roost
    move 2: Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
    move 3: Ice Beam / Substitute
    move 4: Toxic / Reflect
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold / Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Lugia's defenses are very tough to crack, but it s more suited to be a physical wall. With the listed combination of moves, it can function as an excellent counter to some of the top threats in the Uber metagame, including but not limited to Groudon, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Normal Arceus, Giratina-O, Genesect, and certain sets of Palkia, Latias, Latios, and Dialga. It also gets Leftovers as an additional recovery so it will not get worn down by passive damage as easily as Arceus. Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes is huge in Ubers because the metagame is heavily Spikes-based. Access to Dragon Tail allows Lugia to phaze through Taunt, which is something defensive Arceus wishes it could do.</p>

    <p>Roost is Lugia's most important move because its main role is to stall out the opponent. It provides reliable healing and cancels out its weaknesses to Rock-, Electric-, and Ice-type attacks for a turn, which Lugia can often take advantage of due to its great Speed stat. This is particularly useful when trying to stall out dangerous opponents such as Zekrom or Kyurem-B using Fusion Bolt. If you are not a fan of Whirlwind leaving Lugia exposed to Taunt, Dragon Tail is an acceptable alternative to phaze pass it and deal a little damage in the process. Keep in mind that Dragon Tail cannot phaze through Substitutes, and with Lugia's pathetic offenses, this can prevent Lugia from stopping sweepers abusing Substitute such as Giratina-O.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>When using Whirlwind, Ice Beam is the preferred option to deal direct damage to the Dragon-types Lugia is famous for countering. Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Salamence are all easily OHKOed by Ice Beam after a layer of Spikes or Stealth Rock. Nevertheless, bulkier sweepers not weak to Ice such as Mewtwo and Arceus can easily shrug off Ice Beams. If you are using Dragon Tail over Whirlwind, Substitute becomes a decent option to prevent status such as Toxic from crippling Lugia. Once poisoned, Lugia is rendered useless as it can no longer stall out opponents due to the increasing damage. Substitute also allows Lugia to PP stall out the opponent with ease.</p>

    <p>There are many options for the last slot as Lugia has a wide movepool. Reflect allows Lugia to bolster its Defense stat to counter powerful physical sweepers such as Groudon and Arceus more efficiently. This is especially important when Lugia is trying to stop Zekrom or Swords Dance Groudon due to their high base Attack stat and possess super effective moves to hit Lugia. Reflect can be used to the fullest effect with a fast spread. If you are not a fan of Whirlwind, Toxic can be used. Toxic is Lugia's only way of dealing real damage to bulky opponents, and works well with Lugia's stalling prowess. When the opponent can no longer be forced out, Toxic works as a great solution such as when facing end game Swords Dance Arceus. Earthquake can also work in the last slot as it allows Lugia to strike at Zekrom, Heatran, and Reshiram switch-ins, all of which are key stallbreakers, so weakening them as fast as possible can be a game-changer. If you do not mind losing Ice Beam, a combination of Toxic and Reflect together with Roost will help Lugia defeat end-game Swords Dance Arceus all the time bar a critical hit.</p>

    <p>The EV spread listed above is best to maximize Lugia's ability to stomach physical attacks—for example, a Lugia with that EV spread can never be OHKOed by a Life Orb-boosted Outrage from Rayquaza at +1 Atk after Stealth Rock damage, and it can also take on sun-fueled Sacred Fire from Ho-Oh; however Reflect is needed to outstall Ho-Oh. It also ensures that standard Extreme Killer is unable to 2HKO with a +2 Silk Scarf boosted ExtremeSpeed after Stealth Rock as long as Lugia uses Reflect on the turn it is hit. The Special Defense EVs also ensure that Lugia will rarely be 2HKOed by an unboosted Thunder from Timid Palkia, factoring in Leftovers. However, an EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly or Timid nature is also reasonable. It allows Lugia to outspeed Terrakion, allowing it to throw up a Reflect before it can use Stone Edge, and it allows Lugia to take on Garchomp, Swords Dance Rayquaza, Kyurem-B, and mixed Palkia and Dialga more effectively. It also allows Lugia to speed tie at worst with Latias and Latios, and with Roost, both of them are easily outstalled as long as the weather is not rain. The faster spread will work best with Multiscale, so Lugia's decreased bulk will not be so significant. A fast Roost can also allow Lugia to activate Multiscale before the opponent gets to attack and this can prove to be very important when facing powerful threats such as Choice Specs Palkia. 96 Defense EVs and a Defense boosting nature are already sufficient for preventing a Jolly Dragon Dance Rayquaza +1 Outrage from OHKOing after Stealth Rock and one turn of Leftovers. Max HP and Def is also a fine EV spread if you don't care about the additional Special Defense, while surviving +1 Outrage from rare Adamant Rayquaza 100% of the time. If you like a balance of bulk and Speed, a spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe can be used to outrun everything up to Modest Kyurem-W, while providing optimum bulk to avoid the 2HKO from Scarf Salamence's Outrage even after Stealth Rock and sandstorm or hail damage. Go any faster and you might as well just use max Speed because that sacrifices too much of Lugia's bulk already. Both of Lugia's abilities work well for this set depending on your team's needs.</p>

    <p>Toxic is probably Lugia's biggest hindrance, followed closely by Stealth Rock. The former renders Lugia incapable of walling anything due to the ever-increasing poison damage, while the latter slices 25% of Lugia's HP away every time it switches in, and it breaks Multiscale too if you choose to use it. Thankfully, Forretress is immune to Toxic and can also make use of Rapid Spin to clear Stealth Rock from the field, giving Lugia more freedom in switching in to absorb blows. Forretress is also capable of setting up entry hazards to help weaken foes alongside Whirlwind and Dragon Tail. Excadrill and Tentacruel are also excellent partners for Lugia as they are both immune to Toxic and have access to Rapid Spin and the latter with the ability to setup entry hazards as well. Cleric support from the likes of Blissey is also great in making sure Toxic doesn't cripple Lugia.</p>

    <p>Lugia is generally threatened by fast sweepers not weak to Ice Beam and which are capable of hitting it with powerful STAB super effective moves, namely Darkrai. Dark Void will block Lugia's attempts to phaze it out by lulling it to sleep, giving Darkrai a chance to obtain a Nasty Plot before destroying Lugia with a boosted Dark Pulse. Tyranitar and Magnezone also completely wall Lugia without Earthquake, and can easily cut it down using Stone Edge or Thunder, respectively. However, both of them have to beware of getting out stalled by Roost and Pressure. Lugia is also completely incapable of doing anything to defensive threats such as Chansey and Blissey, who can just cripple Lugia with Toxic and sit there until it succumbs to the debilitating poison. Wobbuffet can trap Lugia with Shadow Tag and turn it into setup fodder using Encore. Forretress and Ferrothorn can also come in and set up whatever they want on Lugia, since it can't really hurt them. Lugia cannot spinblock the entry hazards it loves, so a spinblocker is recommended as a partner, although keep in mind Ghost-types share some similar weaknesses with Lugia. Kyogre and Zekrom pack super effective Electric-type attacks to annihilate Lugia. Kyurem-W is another major threat to Lugia as Choice Specs Ice Beam coming from Kyurem-W will always OHKO standard Lugia. Xatu prevents Lugia from doing anything if it lacks Ice Beam thanks to Magic Bounce. Groudon handles most Zekrom and Magnezone with ease thanks to its immunity to Electric-type attacks and great defenses, and the sunlight it brings with it makes Thunder less of a worry to Lugia. Tyranitar and Blissey also have little hope of getting through Groudon although Blissey can cripple Groudon with Toxic. Fighting Arceus, with its impressive defenses and resistances, (I put this here to differentiate it from other Arceus formes since obviously they share the same base stats) handles Darkrai, Dark Arceus, Kyurem-W, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn very well, and is capable of using Forretress as setup bait, as long as the bagworm lacks Toxic. Palkia can come in on Kyogre with ease and blast it away with Thunder, and it can also use a mixed set to lure in and take out Wobbuffet. Genesect is capable of revenge killing Darkrai, Tyranitar, Kyurem-W, and Zekrom while also sharing great typing synergy with Lugia.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunder / Whirlwind
    move 4: Roost
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Calm Mind Lugia might seem outclassed by Arceus at first, who is faster and boasts better offenses, but this is simply not the case. Lugia, unlike most of the Arceus formes, can hold Leftovers, meaning Lugia can continue boosting without needing to use Roost as frequently. With Multiscale, (eventually, Multiscale will not be 'new') Lugia has more initial setup opportunities and can switch into attacks better than Arceus can. If you choose to run Pressure instead, Lugia can become a PP stalling machine and allows it to win the war against opposing Calm Mind users such as Latias. Due to the prevalence of low PP moves in Ubers such as Spacial Rend, Pressure can be extremely useful even on a set like this because Lugia retains much of its bulk.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is Lugia's main attack on this set. Although Lugia's Special Attack is mediocre, Ice Beam will still do plenty of damage after a few Calm Mind boosts, and the super effective coverage it has on Dragon-types is a huge plus. Thunder is a great move to use in general thanks to its solid base power and high paralysis rate. With Thunder, Lugia zaps Kyogre and Manaphy for good damage while getting a decent smack on Steel-type Pokemon, giving Lugia a way to get past its usual checks. Whirlwind can also be used to stop other Calm Mind users from setting up on Lugia, if one is willing to forgo the added type coverage. Whirlwind is particularly effective thanks to Lugia's immense bulk, as it is capable of taking hits from opposing boosters and removing all of their boosts through Whirlwind. With Whirlwind, Lugia can also abuse damage from entry hazards to weaken its usual counters before attempting a sweep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>If you really hate certain Steel-types, Earth Power can be used instead. It blasts Excadrill, Heatran, and Magnezone to pieces while landing a solid smack on Reshiram and Tyranitar. Either way, both moves have great type coverage when paired with Ice Beam. However, it is generally not worth it to use Earth Power simply because Thunder offers better utility in general while Whirlwind allows Lugia to take advantage of its bulk. Psyshock is another interesting option for this set. It allows Lugia to beat pink blobs, Tentacruel, and opposing Calm Mind users, including Arceus, Latias, Kyogre, and Manaphy without phazing them out. However, Lugia loses great coverage and phazing prowess when using Psyshock. Certain Arceus forms, especially those dangerous to Lugia such as Dark and Steel, are not harmed by Psyshock. Aeroblast is a very powerful STAB but it has horrible PP and Lugia being a defensive pokemon in general hates losing PP so quickly. Substitute can go over Thunder if you really hate status and Ferrothorn. Surf destroys Excadrill, Heatran, and Ground Arceus in the rain but is pretty useless otherwise because it is weather dependent and does not have good neutral coverage.</p>

    <p>In addition to being hampered by all of the Pokemon that trouble the previous set, other Calm Mind users, such as the Arceus formes (Dark, Electric, Ice, Ghost, and Rock), can easily beat Lugia one-on-one due to their better type matchup or offensive stats. However, Arceus might lose if Lugia runs Whirlwind because all of them cannot quickly dispatch Lugia, especially if Lugia has Multiscale. Blissey can handle most kinds of Calm Mind Arceus with ease thanks to Toxic. While Kyogre fears boosted Thunders, it can threaten Lugia back with powerful Thunders of its own. Kyogre is easily dealt with by Scarf Zekrom and Grass Arceus thanks to their superior Speed, powerful super effective STAB moves, and resistance to Water-type attacks. Forretress and Tentacruel can also set up Toxic Spikes, which greatly hampers most of this set's counters by putting them on a timer so they won't be able to bother Lugia as much anymore. Excadrill can support Lugia by defeating Tyranitar and Zekrom. Kyurem-W is not as threatening to this set but a Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam can still be an issue. The pink blobs and Jirachi can wall Kyurem-W and support Lugia with Wish.</p>(eliminated since the analysis may undergo edits. put it back in if you feel it is necessary)

    [Pressure vs Multiscale]
    Moved this here since it is way more important than OO.
    <p>Due to Lugia's already insane bulk, Multiscale is not always the superior ability for Lugia. While Multiscale is a great ability, Pressure can be just as useful, because Lugia is a stalling machine and depleting the opponent's PP as quickly as possible can be crucial to Lugia's success. However, Lugia can only outstall certain threats with Pressure such as Ho-Oh and Zekrom. If Lugia has Multiscale instead, it cannot PP stall Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire, Groudon's Stone Edge, and Zekrom's Bolt Strike as quickly, and the use of Substitute goes well with Pressure. Due to Lugia's naturally high Speed, Pressure can also let Lugia abuse Substitute and stall out enormously powerful hits such as Choice Specs Kyogre's Water Spout, which has only 4 chances. Multiscale is not really reliable because it activates only at 100%, and Lugia is also weak to Stealth Rock making this feat easier said than done. Pressure, on the other hand, is always active. Using Pressure also allows Lugia to fair better against Kyurem-W because it can use Substitute a few times to sap up all the PP, and Roosting when necessary. Timid Choice Specs Ice Beam only does 47.6% - 56.3% to 252 HP Lugia, so it can stall that out with the combination of Roost + Substitute and Pressure as long as Lugia is faster.</p>

    <p>However, Multiscale has its own fair share of advantages as well. With the ability, Lugia becomes a solid answer to Baton Pass teams because a +2 Thunder from Life Orb Dialga cannot even come close to OHKOing Lugia. Multiscale is also great for Lugia to tank the initial hit, such as when taking a +4 Arceus ExtremeSpeed before phazing it out. Substitute + Multiscale is another interesting combination, as when used together, Lugia's Substitute can survive even very powerful hits such as Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire. Multiscale halves damage only at full health, but when active, it allows Lugia to stall out even Choice Specs Palkia's Hydro Pump in the rain or to survive something like +2 Groudon's and Terrakion's Stone Edge. Multiscale will give Lugia the upper hand when trying to counter end-game Swords Dance Arceus because Pressure will be near useless in that case; an unboosted Attack from Arceus does not come close to 3HKOing Lugia.</p>

    <p>Unlike Dragonite in OU, Lugia's lack of offense and extremely high defenses deter the use of sheer power to take it down, instead attracting Toxic to bypass them. This in turn makes Multiscale less effective. However, if you do usually use brute force to take Lugia down, you might be extremely annoyed at how well Multiscale Lugia just soaks up hits. The Calm Mind set will generally prefer Multiscale if you just wish to sweep your opponent better and get more setup chances.

    <p>In the end, it is up to your team preferences. Both abilities have their own advantages but the Calm Mind set will enjoy the extra buff from Multiscale more than the Great Wall set. Fast Lugia spreads also work better with Multiscale but is still usable with a bulky spread. Pressure is a useful ability for a titanic wall like Lugia and is great for all out stalling the opponent to death.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Since Garchomp and Groudon will pretty much never switch into it, Thunder Wave is an excellent support move for Lugia. It can help slow the opponent's sweepers and revenge killers, paving the way for a slow Pokemon such as Groudon to sweep. However, Lugia's real use is in stall teams in which Toxic is generally the superior status to use. A specially defensive set can be used with Light Screen to take on certain sweepers such as Mixed Rayquaza and Mewtwo more effectively. Light Screen amps up Lugia's Special Defense even more, making it nigh impossible to break with special attacks. With Light Screen in effect, Lugia can even wall Specs Kyurem-W with Roost easily.</p>

    <p>Safeguard is also an option to give Lugia status protection and support for the team but it does not block Leech Seed. Shed Shell can be used as an alternative item choice to stop Wobbuffet from turning Lugia into setup bait but it is not worth it to sacrifice passive recovery from leftovers. Weather Ball combined with sunlight allows Lugia to fry Excadrill, Forretress and Ferrothorn, which is very useful as otherwise, they can use Lugia as setup bait.</p>

    <p>By running a moveset of Rest / Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail, Lugia can use an interesting tactic known as Speed Shuffling. Sleep Talk cancels out the negative priority of phazing moves, and because Lugia learns both Whirlwind and Dragon Tail, Sleep Talk will have a 66% chance of forcing the opponent to immediately switch out, which Lugia can abuse entry hazards for devastating effects due to its high Speed. Although Rest activates Multiscale 100% of the time, it only helps soften the initial hit, and Lugia is better off just using Roost. Lugia's walling capabilities will also be severely hampered when relying on Rest for recovery. However, this set cannot touch anything with Taunt and will often be put into a tough situation if Sleep Talk does not select a phazing move, so usage is generally not recommended.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Darkrai is usually a great answer to Lugia, as it can't really hurt Darkrai due to Lugia's pathetic power. Since Darkrai is a frail offensive pokemon, it does not really mind being Toxic poisoned. Darkrai carries STAB Dark Pulse to OHKO Lugia once it gets up a Nasty Plot with the help of Life Orb. Kyurem-W has an extremely powerful STAB Ice Beam to OHKO almost any Lugia variants as long as Lugia does not get the chance to use Roost or Light Screen. Scarf Kyurem-W can safely 2HKO Lugia with Ice Beam while laughing at Lugia's own Ice Beam, although Dragon Tail combined with entry hazards can easily wear Kyurem-W down. While Tyranitar risks being outstalled by Reflect and Toxic, it has powerful STAB Stone Edge and Crunch to deal major damage to Lugia. Tyranitar is a much better counter to the Calm Mind set as it does not fear weak Ice Beam and Thunders. Kyogre and Zekrom carry mighty Water- and Electric-type STAB attacks that are just too powerful for Lugia to handle. Choice Scarf Zekrom is generally the best set to deal with Lugia because it can outrun and quickly knock out Lugia with Bolt Strike before it gets the chance to use Substitute or Reflect. The pink blobs also completely wall Lugia and can outstall it with Toxic while laughing at Lugia's attempts to hurt it; beware of Substitute as it will turn the tables as both blobs rely on Toxic to kill Lugia. Reshiram, although it dislikes Calm Mind variants, can come in and roast Lugia alive with Blue Fire provided the weather is sunny. Heatran is in a similar position. Although it fears Earth Power and Earthquake much more than Reshiram, it doesn't care about Toxic and can even Taunt Lugia to stop it from healing itself. Skarmory and Gyarados are both annoying foes for Lugia to face due to Taunt stopping recovery and Whirlwind while their good bulk allows them to take on repeated Ice Beams. However, both of them will loath Thunders coming from the Calm Mind set. Forretress can take any attack save Weatherball in the sun from Lugia, and use Lugia as Spikes bait or wear it down with Toxic. It can also use Rapid Spin to remove all the entry hazards Lugia uses to wreck havoc. Jirachi can also squander any attack from Lugia and cripple it with a Toxic of its own. Lastly, Choice Band Kyurem-B can 2HKO all Lugia versions with Outrage while easily taking Ice Beams or Thunder as long as Lugia lacks Reflect.</p>

    <p>Toxic absolutely ruins Lugia's walling abilities, so simply hitting it with the debilitating Poison-type move will leave it crippled and near useless. Stealth Rock also isn't fun for Lugia either. Losing 25% HP on every switch-in really messes up Lugia's ability to take hits. However, Lugia can foil Toxic attempts with a faster Substitute.</p>


    good job.
    [gp]1/2[/gp]

    EDIT: Sorry! I just noticed that post. I don't think I made any large changes so it should still be okay.
  12. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Updated with GP 1/2. Waiting for the 2nd check. Thanks.
    I thought Poppy wants to check this first.
  13. sammao

    sammao

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    Just saying, do QC actually allowed Gyarados put in the Check and Counter?
  14. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Oh my god trickroom get rid of that
  15. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Steelix is in the Zekrom analysis and shits like Shedinja is mentioned pretty frequently. Since, Gyarados is already accepted in the threat list, a mention in checks and counters looks fine to me. More importantly, Gyarados does beat Lugia with Taunt and Toxic.

    Waiting for a second GP check.
  16. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    Please remove any mention of gyarados. It does not have unique assets that allow it to take on lugia. Taunt nd bwing able to take weak ice beams are fairly widespread.
  17. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Examples will be?
  18. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    taunt recover alakazam
    basculin
    bastiodon
    chandelure
    cobalion
    darmanitan
    dusknoir
    dusclops
    hypno
    floatzel
    pain split gengar
    houndoom

    do i really have to do this
  19. trickroom

    trickroom
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    None of them works in Ubers however. They basically have no use. I don't think any of those will use Taunt anyway because they can't use it well.
    Poppy > furry
  20. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  21. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    How about a surprise Choice Specs set? I got the idea from Ferrothorn. Here's some damage calculations:

    ~252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 292-345 (72.27 - 85.39%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
    ~252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-W: 291-343 (74.42 - 87.72%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    ~252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 250-295 (73.31 - 86.51%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    ~252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 250-295 (73.31 - 86.51%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Okay, it needs some support to actually kill anything so far, but w/ Spikes & Stealth Rock (and perhaps Sandstorm), it can kill some threats your opponent won't expect to die. For example, they might switch to Zekrom to defeat it w/ Bolt Strike, only to be destroyed by Psycho Boost. It could also use Trick to get things like Chansey/Blissey, Ferrothorn, opposing Lugia, etc. What do you think? Thoughts?
  22. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I know this is already a 2/2 for GP but in C&C I'd also mention that Zekrom has Teravolt to break through Multiscale, which is really useful.
  23. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Fixed GP 2/2

    Lugia doesn't work with Choice Specs, unless you are just trying to have fun. It's weak and unlike Ferrothorn, Lugia is weak to Stealth Rock, and lack good STABs which actually KO important things. CB Ferrothorn is pretty situational anyway but it can OHKO Kyogre with Power Whip and all Groudons are 2HKOed at worst. Gyro Ball OHKOes many frailer targets such as Darkrai and Shaymin-S, even Reshiram can be 2HKOed.

    It is not worth sacrificing Lugia's great bulk for a choiced set. Zekrom is mentioned in counters already and people know Terravolt nullifies those abilities. That is mentioned in the Zekrom analysis.

    Ready for upload

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