Lumineon

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by breh, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. breh

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    [Overview]

    <p>With the BW buff to Storm Drain, Game Freak threw a veritable lifesaver to its two original recipients, Gastrodon and Lumineon. While Gastrodon slowly climbed up from the bottom of the barrel, Lumineon, characterized by a barren movepool, mediocre bulk, average Speed, and terrible offenses, did not benefit in the slightest as a result. It still wallows at the bottom of the NU tier, sucked into the storm drain with the trash. Lumineon is so held down by its poor stats that there is little it can do aside from a bland set with Rain Dance and Swift Swim. At the very least, Lumineon does outspeed a large portion of the metagame when rain is up.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Damp Rock
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Modest
    evs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Lumineon's usefulness is limited to a simple Rain Dance set. Essentially, Lumineon strives to set up weather and switch out to a sweeper as fast as possible. Lumineon's strongest STAB move is Surf, which packs a slight punch in the rain. Hidden Power Grass prevents Lumineon from becoming total setup fodder to any Water-type that approaches it. After Lumineon changes the weather, its usefulness is roughly equivalent to that of a bee without its stinger; U-turn allows it to do a bit of damage as it flees from its (likely stronger) opponent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The Damp Rock lengthens the amount of time that rain lasts, which is a necessity for any rain team. The EV spread maximizes Special Attack and gives Lumineon just enough Speed to outspeed Choice Scarf Rotom in the rain; the rest are dumped into HP for added bulk; if you want to, a few more EVs can be added to Speed to outspeed Choice Scarf Jynx. Ice Beam can be used instead of Hidden Power Grass to hit Grass-types such as Tangela, but it won't do too much to them either way. Obviously, one should pair Lumineon with Pokemon that work well under rain. For example, Swift Swim Gorebyss and Swift Swim Armaldo both enjoy a boost in Speed that makes them far more dangerous. Electric-types gain the ability to use a perfectly accurate Thunder, something to be feared from the likes of Rotom-S. Lightningrod Raichu also deserves mention for its ability to take Electric-type moves aimed at Lumineon. Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Sap Sipper Miltank that can easily switch in to Grass-type moves meant for Lumineon are also valuable teammates. Swanna is a veritable monster in rain, able to launch off 100% accurate Hurricanes and boosted Surfs.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>An offensive set with Life Orb and Storm Drain can be used, but is risky; after getting a boost and KOing the opposing Water-type, Lumineon is forced to clean sweep its opponent or be relegated to death fodder for the rest of the match. Even worse, a smart opponent can avoid using Water-type moves and ensure that Lumineon remains a useless fish. Toxic and Scald allow Lumineon to status its opponents, giving it a more consistent form of damage. Waterfall runs off of an equivalent attacking stat, but has lower Base Power than Surf, and Hidden Power Electric hits Mantine harder than Hidden Power Grass, but gives Lumineon nothing to do against Quagsire. Charm allows Lumineon to set up a teammate by weakening its opponent. Soak allows Lumineon to use Toxic on any Pokemon it desires—even Steel- and Poison-types—but is fairly ineffective overall</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Anything that can Taunt Lumineon before it has a chance to set up is a fairly reliable counter, as a Lumineon that fails to set up rain is a sitting duck. Anything that has higher Speed and Substitute, such as Calm Mind Serperior, can take advantage of Lumineon and waste the turns of rain while it sets up itself. Although Swellow must be wary when it switches in, it outspeeds Lumineon outside of rain and OHKOes. Most Pokemon with Thunder Wave can happily spam the move until Lumineon U-turns out, meaning that they nail a sweeper as its teammate flees in terror. Jynx is faster than Lumineon outside of rain and enjoys the weather condition in general, but takes an embarrassingly large amount of damage from U-turn, meaning that one should use it only to check Lumineon. Although most Water-types can beat it, they cannot do much to prevent it from setting up. Mantine and Regice generally cause problems for rain teams, but must be wary of what Lumineon switches into. Golduck can either ignore the rain or abuse it with Swift Swim.</p>
  2. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    Ability: Storm Drain
    Nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Specs Storm Drain boosted attacks + U-turn. Seems alright to me?

    Gastrodon is the only other Water-type that has access to Storm Drain, which kinda gives Lumineon a niche. After a Storm Drain boost, Lumineon reaches 532 Special Attack.
  3. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Yeah, Lumineon's actually got a great speed tier, letting it outspeed a lot of the metagame and hit it with Specs attacks. Switching into Gorebyss is also fun.
  4. SuperJOCKE

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    Yeah, agreeing with these two. Lumineon should take advantage of Storm Drain and all that. And why did you reserve this if you're talking shit about it? :/
  5. tennisace

    tennisace very nice.
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    Yeah this needs an offensive set, quite possibly as the main and only set since Phione of all things does the bulky set so much better. 80/80/80 with somewhat decent healing > 69/76/86 with jack shit.
  6. breh

    breh
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    I'll test Specs, but I'm inclined to believe that it's not overly effective. In order to do something, Lumineon is forced to kill the thing that gives it SpA boosts and switch...

    I'll test LO as well.
  7. tennisace

    tennisace very nice.
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    Any update or changes?
  8. Steamroll

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    -Anything with heal bell pretty much wins; Lickilicky and Misdreavus just sit there and giggle in Gorebyss's face

    That's supposed to be Lumineon. Also Storm Drain gives it a nice niche as mentioned in the other posts.
  9. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Hang on Steam, what are you approving? Because the "wall" set is awful.

    IMO, change it to a special attacker with specs, like I posted above, maybe slash LO as well, emphasize its high Speed and Storm Drain, mention Rain Dance + U-turn in OO, mention that it outspeeds stuff like Magmortar.

    Maybe an OO mention for an Agility sweeper? LO and a Storm Drain boost plus faster-than-everything Speed sounds alright.

    Mention Regirock in AC as a partner to lure in Water-type moves. Jynx is a problem, so Absol gets a mention for getting rid of her. Gurdurr too.

    Mention Jynx in Checks and Counters too.
  10. SuperJOCKE

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    Yeah, I agree with November Blue. Lumineon should go on the offensive.

    Don't go approve things just to get things done more quickly.
  11. breh

    breh
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    SuperJocke pmed me about this so I'll post my sentiments about LO/Specs here.

    The qualms I have about specs/LO is that it simply needs that boost from Storm Drain to do useful things. If your opponent is conservative with their water mons (or simply doesn't have one on their team), Lumineon is pretty much death fodder for the game - a base 69 LO/Specs surf is not incredibly frightening. Considering that most people will usually only have one water mon on their team (one of Quag, Byss, or Samurott), once that mon dies (even at Lumineon's hands) Lumineon has to clean sweep once getting a boost from them or else it becomes useless. Specs is worse because it's forced to use HP Grass to KO any of them, meaning you're stuck into it until you switch out.

    I'll add in specs/lo if people have logs to prove it, but I'm unsure about whether they will succeed as sets.
  12. tennisace

    tennisace very nice.
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    Again, with a defensive set it is totally outclassed by Phione, which is bulkier and has recovery. The set should be an offensive one, period.
  13. Oglemi

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    Lumineon is one of the those Pokemon that is so bad that's it's going to be outclassed no matter what you do with it. This reminds me a lot of DPP UU Castform. There probably isn't a best set at all, since its stats are all relatively suckish and it has no other signature moves to distinguish itself.

    What you have to look at is what you have as a Pokemon. Lumineon has higher defenses than offenses yes, but only relatively so. You're trying to rely on Lumineon being able to switch safely into a Water-type attack to gain the SpA boost, and maybe KO a Gorebyss. But who's to say that the Gorebyss won't Shell Smash as you switch in and obliterate you with HP Grass in return? With Storm Drain Lumineon literally doesn't beat any other Water-types in NU, and at best gets a Toxic off on Alomomola. Let's not forget that as pointed out, Phione of all Pokemon utterly outclasses you in stats and movepool, save for Speed.

    However, with Swift Swim and Rain Dance you control the battlefield, instead of relying on the opponent to shoot a Water-type attack at you. A nice thing that Lumineon has as a Swift Swim sweeper is U-turn, allowing it to either set up Rain Dance and U-turn out to a teammate, or U-turn on the last turn of rain to another Pokemon to set up Rain Dance for it. And, it can also go on the defensive and setup Safeguard for the team as SilentVerse showed was successful last gen in DPP.

    In all honesty I would go with the Swift Swim set; Lumineon's offenses are terrible, but a Life Orb, rain-boosted Surf is more reliable than a Storm Drain-boosted anything.

    I'm not denying that you can use the Wall set effectively, just as you can use the offensive set effectively. You could probably list both sets and just say that you can "pick your poison and use this shit fish if you want, here are your options".

    But if the rest of the QC members decide to go with only the offensive set, I would heed their decision.
  14. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Could we please change the name of the Wall set to Support, or something similar?
  15. breh

    breh
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    So, with Oglemi's comments:

    What do I include?

    Support set
    Rain Dance setup set
    Offensive set
  16. Omicron

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    I would honestly never use this over Alomomola for support. Just go with the Rain Dance "Sweeper" set and call it a day.
  17. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken with splinters in our teeth, we're driven from our parallels
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    Agreeing.
  18. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    How about U-turn in the rain sweeper AC for passing to other teammates?
  19. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    It might be worth mentioning that, with its unique Speed tier, a +2 Lumineon will outspeed all other speed boosting Pokemon in the Rain, including Choice Scarfers. Most of the other Swift Swimmers in the tier can't do this, apart from Golduck and Floatzel.
  20. breh

    breh
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    Ok, so I've changed the set to Rain Dance. Is this what was desired?
  21. Omicron

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    Timid nature, think you forgot to change that
  22. Steamroll

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    by scald in Checks and Counters did you mean Surf? That should be fixed.
  23. Zebraiken

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    make sure to update checks and counters to mons more applicable to the rain dance stuff, and what omi said. also in the write-up expand teammates etc. mention ice beam/other coverage moves in ac, perhaps? otherwise looks good imo

    QC APPROVED (1/3)

    edit: fcuk you steamrool, ninjaing me
  24. breh

    breh
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    ok, changed nature to modest (it only needs 24 Spe to outspeed most of the metagame; timid is not useful)

    added ice beam into AC.

    what teammates should I mention? rain teams are pretty one-dimensional.
  25. Omicron

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    Mention rain inducers like Volbeat, Mesprit, w/e

    And get rid of Jynx beforehand

    stuff like that

    QC APPROVED (2/3)

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