UncleSam is going to force himself to play, just so everyone knows.
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Mafia Mafia 2 Postgame
- Thread starter Mekkah
- Start date
It was my role in dude. Don't give me too much credit.
WARNING: jumpluff and Mekkah and shade will probably disagree with the following paragraph. If you are one of these three users, look away now.
In all seriousness though, while we may not have deserved the win, we really just made one huge mistake. Yeah, the wolves played well, and they lost, such is the nature of being wolf, to an extent. The village played well, apart from letting in a huge mole and dissolving after jumpluff died. We played decently well too, apart from pulling our "Mekkah is wolf" trick too early. Even so, we won due to mistakes made by other players. The win may be undeserved, but we are not morally in the wrong for attempting to win the game after having screwed ourselves over unintentionally.
Roles were overpowered on all sides (and hence, not overpowered on any side). The only imbalance was due to the users on each team, which was heavily slanted toward the mafia, no offense to any players on the village; we had some heavy hitters.
Thank you to LN for hosting the game. I did have a good time! I'd also like to thank DLE for hosting Mafia Mafia 2 Mafia 1, which I also enjoyed.
Mafia Mafia 2 Mafia 1: The best Mafia Mafia 2 Mafia game
Well, Mekkah and shade might disagree, but I already said to UncleSam I wouldn't expect you to not try to capitalise. After all, I was perfectly willing to capitalise on your massive mistake and shade's willingness to get revenge. Frustrating, sure, but it's not like I expected you guys to go 'nah, you deserve it more' and suicide so one of the other teams could win.
And I pretty much agree with your comment on balance. I don't think the game was heavily imbalanced, just really powerful with some broken elements on both sides. At the start of the game I think the village and mafia had a fairly equal shot at winning, don't know about Mekkah but he had a pretty strong mole role and thus potential access to items like the Taser and Bubble House to give him some crowd control*. I think the village thief's win actually hurt him, since it meant he had to steal them himself, but he still managed to get the Taser through social engineering.
I was just wondering where you were earlier, aska, 'cause you weren't on IRC for ages x)
ETA: * obviously I don't think he had an equal shot of winning
And I pretty much agree with your comment on balance. I don't think the game was heavily imbalanced, just really powerful with some broken elements on both sides. At the start of the game I think the village and mafia had a fairly equal shot at winning, don't know about Mekkah but he had a pretty strong mole role and thus potential access to items like the Taser and Bubble House to give him some crowd control*. I think the village thief's win actually hurt him, since it meant he had to steal them himself, but he still managed to get the Taser through social engineering.
I was just wondering where you were earlier, aska, 'cause you weren't on IRC for ages x)
ETA: * obviously I don't think he had an equal shot of winning
There's nothing I disagree with what you said aska, other than the fact that I believe you guys were simply too uncooperative (both with my side as with each other), which includes the parts of killing me/selling me out, but also being a pain to negotiate with and generally not sticking to agreed killings.
Mekkah you can't claim the uncooperativeness was one sided for the agreed killings. Sure we did it first, but only because we couldn't tell you our problem with our plan as that'd reveal ipl, on the other hand you had no reason to keep the pblade kill a secret, the role was dangerous to us, very dangerous, you could have easily come forward with it. Derivating from the plan too didn't help our cooperation a bit, and even though we changed our kill target, we still hooked the Doctor as promised.
Also please put an "early" infront of the selling out/killing you part, you know pretty well that was just a matter of time, and even then your problem is you would have been able to work around both of those better if we did it later, it wasn't the best decision, but it would have went better for you later, and we wanted to do the selling out at the end of a street justice night(so that the village has two lynches enough for both of the wolves, with no street justice to speed up the process). We couldn't wait two nights and risk losing ipl, and boy were we right! As he was up for a lynch the next day.
Also please put an "early" infront of the selling out/killing you part, you know pretty well that was just a matter of time, and even then your problem is you would have been able to work around both of those better if we did it later, it wasn't the best decision, but it would have went better for you later, and we wanted to do the selling out at the end of a street justice night(so that the village has two lynches enough for both of the wolves, with no street justice to speed up the process). We couldn't wait two nights and risk losing ipl, and boy were we right! As he was up for a lynch the next day.
Oh, yeah sure, in order to win you had to get rid of me, no doubt about it.
Plus, soft alliances work the prisoner dilemma way for me. You're going to kill something else instead of your agreed target? Then don't complain if I do the same. Eye for an eye, if you will. The fact that you had already refused to activate our kill once (in addition to not killing the bodyguard when you said you would) made it easily justifiable. You can't expect me to cooperate with you if you don't cooperate with me.
And as I made Eep say to you, after that whole ordeal we were even as far as I was concerned. You guys deviated once, I deviated once. I ended up killing one of yours, but that was obviously an accident, I had no reason to aim for a Mafia. But no, you guys had to go blackmail mode on WildEep to make our relationship even worse.
That would just have ended badly, since you'd have to tell me he is Mafia or argue that killing him over the Bodyguard would be a bad move (which it would be if it weren't for me stealing the BPV, but obviously I could not tell you that), or promise to kill him and then not do it.
Plus, soft alliances work the prisoner dilemma way for me. You're going to kill something else instead of your agreed target? Then don't complain if I do the same. Eye for an eye, if you will. The fact that you had already refused to activate our kill once (in addition to not killing the bodyguard when you said you would) made it easily justifiable. You can't expect me to cooperate with you if you don't cooperate with me.
And as I made Eep say to you, after that whole ordeal we were even as far as I was concerned. You guys deviated once, I deviated once. I ended up killing one of yours, but that was obviously an accident, I had no reason to aim for a Mafia. But no, you guys had to go blackmail mode on WildEep to make our relationship even worse.
Fact is, as long as both sides strike back for what the other did, then there can't be peace. There is no such thing as "even" in the world when it comes to things like that, as long as both sides try to get even, nothing will ever end. In Hungary for this, alas it makes no sense, so I won't bother transalating it(you can try to use google trans for it though: Okos enged, szamár szenved). Fact is you can't solely blame us for the dissonance between the two teams.
Also the reasoning for Pblade is complete bullshit, you at the time didn't know he was a mafia, ergo all the complications you just brought up, couldn't have influenced you in the decision of not sharing your target for the night. So pretty much your only reason was getting even, which is in my opinion worse than us selling you out then killing you, because we were doing that to try and win, on the other hand not sharing your target with us was just a personal vendetta.
As for the blackmailing, we only did that to open up the stream of information. We were p much sure that you guys had insider info on the village from the second I discussed our first collab with WildEep. So when we had the deciding Mekkah info in our bag we could try two things, one failed because you were always on Mekkah, the other we kept the info on you being a mole in reverse, and went to prove to WildEep he is moling the village. The very reason we didn't kill the Doctor was because of fearing the Bubble House. Now to avoid future situations like that we needed info on the village, the same WildEep had. If he admits it he has no reason to use stupid excuses on why X is safe to hit and Y isn't, and it's much easier to agree to on the kills when our info base is the same. You can't except people to accept your logic when they don't know the same things you do. And as I said it was way too obv from our first night target talk that he had insider info, like hell it wasn't when he knew who the Doctor wasn't protecting...
Either way I have more ideas but I have to leave my seat now, more later.
EDIT: And I'm back. Another thing is how you just throw away the fact that you killed one of us even though it was an accident. Sure we understand that, but I'm sure if we switched places(where we get in to the same situation even though I doubt that it would go anywhere near the same) losing a team mate to the wolf leaves a bitter taste in your mouth however it happened. Fact is to you it may have been the same, but for us it sure wasn't. And you sure can't blame us for that if you view soft alliances as an eye for an eye.
I'm not slaying I blame you, but that we both contributed to the dissonance between our groups, my side more since we started it and kept creating situations, instead of letting it slide and trying to work together, which neither side did.
Either way, I think I will try to find other ways to solve not wanting to kill roles that I agreed on with my soft ally... I do not want to mafia mafia 2 2.
Also the reasoning for Pblade is complete bullshit, you at the time didn't know he was a mafia, ergo all the complications you just brought up, couldn't have influenced you in the decision of not sharing your target for the night. So pretty much your only reason was getting even, which is in my opinion worse than us selling you out then killing you, because we were doing that to try and win, on the other hand not sharing your target with us was just a personal vendetta.
As for the blackmailing, we only did that to open up the stream of information. We were p much sure that you guys had insider info on the village from the second I discussed our first collab with WildEep. So when we had the deciding Mekkah info in our bag we could try two things, one failed because you were always on Mekkah, the other we kept the info on you being a mole in reverse, and went to prove to WildEep he is moling the village. The very reason we didn't kill the Doctor was because of fearing the Bubble House. Now to avoid future situations like that we needed info on the village, the same WildEep had. If he admits it he has no reason to use stupid excuses on why X is safe to hit and Y isn't, and it's much easier to agree to on the kills when our info base is the same. You can't except people to accept your logic when they don't know the same things you do. And as I said it was way too obv from our first night target talk that he had insider info, like hell it wasn't when he knew who the Doctor wasn't protecting...
Either way I have more ideas but I have to leave my seat now, more later.
EDIT: And I'm back. Another thing is how you just throw away the fact that you killed one of us even though it was an accident. Sure we understand that, but I'm sure if we switched places(where we get in to the same situation even though I doubt that it would go anywhere near the same) losing a team mate to the wolf leaves a bitter taste in your mouth however it happened. Fact is to you it may have been the same, but for us it sure wasn't. And you sure can't blame us for that if you view soft alliances as an eye for an eye.
I'm not slaying I blame you, but that we both contributed to the dissonance between our groups, my side more since we started it and kept creating situations, instead of letting it slide and trying to work together, which neither side did.
Either way, I think I will try to find other ways to solve not wanting to kill roles that I agreed on with my soft ally... I do not want to mafia mafia 2 2.
Getting even is very easy. You do something, I do something, now we're even. The order does not matter - I'd expect you to do something to me if I did something to you for no reason. I'm not going to strike you back for anything if we're already even. Your logic seems to be "he did something to us, let's do something to him regardless of the 'score'".
I am not bullshitting. I said "it wouldn't have worked out" (eg in hindsight, it wouldn't have helped). The reason we did not share the Paperblade kill was because we weren't sure if you would accept us killing him instead of the bodyguard, and we wanted you to do the kill we agreed upon. You can't blame us for doing that because you did the exact same to us a Night ago.
If you're going to say "there can never be peace if you keep getting back at each other", then remember that I am also not going to win if I'm going to let you walk over me all the time like that. What's the point of agreeing on kill targets if you get to deviate from the agreement every time? Might as well not bother. So instead, I'm going to be nice to you while you are nice to me. If you are not going to be nice to me, you can expect retaliation. Notice that shade only started going for you guys once you killed me. Eye for an eye.
What you ended up achieving is more distrust from us. All you got was useless information and a lie. You never attempted to find village info again from us.
For the first thing reffer to my edits in my other post, for you it may have been even, but for us it was 1.5 to 1. Sure the base was kinda the same, but the results were completely different.
The difference would have been if you told us you were gonna kill pblade, we would have sure protected him, that is a big one. That'd have changed the whole game I'm sure.
On the other hand you argue we were trampling all over our agreement, but you forget the agreement had two things for us to do, kill the BG and hook the BG. Out of those we only didn't do one, but we sure as hell did the other, you can't say we are breaking every one of our agreements(especially since we only had that single one at the time). Again you only considered the situation where both deviations were a 1, but that was only the case for you. Consider the situation from our view(again I'm repeating my edit).
As for those info, for you it may have been useless, but at the time it was one of the few we didn't know about, nor did we know how it exactly worked. It was only useless to you because you knew how it worked.
The difference would have been if you told us you were gonna kill pblade, we would have sure protected him, that is a big one. That'd have changed the whole game I'm sure.
On the other hand you argue we were trampling all over our agreement, but you forget the agreement had two things for us to do, kill the BG and hook the BG. Out of those we only didn't do one, but we sure as hell did the other, you can't say we are breaking every one of our agreements(especially since we only had that single one at the time). Again you only considered the situation where both deviations were a 1, but that was only the case for you. Consider the situation from our view(again I'm repeating my edit).
As for those info, for you it may have been useless, but at the time it was one of the few we didn't know about, nor did we know how it exactly worked. It was only useless to you because you knew how it worked.
I remember talking to paperblade about the game during rising,
me: man fuck randkills!
paperblade: no we inspected you
me: so you randomly inspected me, and from that you killed me?
paperblade: yep
me: fuck rand inspects!
me: man fuck randkills!
paperblade: no we inspected you
me: so you randomly inspected me, and from that you killed me?
paperblade: yep
me: fuck rand inspects!
[06:39] <Paperblade> oh btw
[06:39] <Paperblade> when you told me like
[06:40] <Paperblade> your role and shit in MM2
[06:40] <Paperblade> did you forget that I was playing or what
[06:40] <Life> MM2?
[06:40] <Paperblade> Mafia Mafia 2
[06:40] <Paperblade> you were talking about it in the BSM channel
[06:40] <Life> You were playing?
[06:40] <Paperblade> yes
[06:40] <Paperblade> I won <_<
[06:41] <Life> ffs
[06:41] <Paperblade> I'll take that as a "yes"
[06:42] <Life> Of course
[06:42] <Life> I thought you weren't
[06:42] <Paperblade> lol
this was the best moling a mafia member did all game--convincing people that I wasn't actually playing so that they would give me sensitive information
[06:39] <Paperblade> when you told me like
[06:40] <Paperblade> your role and shit in MM2
[06:40] <Paperblade> did you forget that I was playing or what
[06:40] <Life> MM2?
[06:40] <Paperblade> Mafia Mafia 2
[06:40] <Paperblade> you were talking about it in the BSM channel
[06:40] <Life> You were playing?
[06:40] <Paperblade> yes
[06:40] <Paperblade> I won <_<
[06:41] <Life> ffs
[06:41] <Paperblade> I'll take that as a "yes"
[06:42] <Life> Of course
[06:42] <Life> I thought you weren't
[06:42] <Paperblade> lol
this was the best moling a mafia member did all game--convincing people that I wasn't actually playing so that they would give me sensitive information