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Mafia Mafia 2 Postgame
- Thread starter Mekkah
- Start date
i sware on my doggies grave that it wasnt my fault :'(
Way too many hidden concepts itg.
I never really liked the idea of masons. Yeah, it gives the village a good start early on, but it makes it so other villagers are rarely involved (you pointed this out as well, more than a few times). Not that I would have gotten involved anytime soon with my godawful role...
I think I like this better than a probable LN postgame. Unless you guys were going to talk just as much in a postgame made by someone else, that is.
I never really liked the idea of masons. Yeah, it gives the village a good start early on, but it makes it so other villagers are rarely involved (you pointed this out as well, more than a few times). Not that I would have gotten involved anytime soon with my godawful role...
I think I like this better than a probable LN postgame. Unless you guys were going to talk just as much in a postgame made by someone else, that is.
First things first, I sure as hell revealed the contact the second it happened. I'm p sure LN posted the pastebin link in our channel even. Also we didn't know whether the Knife also blocked the hookers secondary effect.
Now then, I will clarify a few things, why we did this and that, for an exmaple wanting to kill the reverse martyr. The reason we wanted to do that instead of aiming at the BG/Doctor was because we weren't sure who held the Bubble House, we didn't want one of our kills be wasted, nor did we want to steal from both the BG and the revmart since that could end up as a double target on the revmart. Either way we wanted sure kills, and the rev mart was in the way of that because we couldn't deal with both him and the bubble house at the same time, not without giving up some inspects that is. We ended up killing the Taxi Driver though since it could screw over a lot of our roles. Tbh we only decided to go for that, because we believed him to be Mekkah and recruited by the wolf, we found wildeep to be a bit overprotective when it came to the revmart(funny I think the whole game we made up reasons why mekkah would be with the wolf, and when we found he actually was we weren't really surprised). So our targets got p limited, we didn't want to off the BG because we didn't want to hit the Bubble House, while we didn't want to kill the rev mart for the above reasons. Just like Mekkah we didn't want to reveal the Bubble House, due to that revealing ipl, who was our goddamned godfather, so we couldn't ask for more info and we mostly had villagers at the point.
As for the talk Nachos and WildEep had, our original intention was to use the Mekkah confirmation aska got us from the channel where WildEep slipped to pressure WildEep to give us info. Alas we wanted to do that while Mekkah was offline, alas whenever Nachos was on alongside with WildEep Mekkah was always on. So in the end we settled for the WildEEp is moling alone talk, this way we could get more info still, and had Mekkah is wolf as a backup plan.
And now we are getting to the biggest moment in the game, that all other factions think was a mistake. I'm still sticking to my claim that the mafia was the weakest faction, the village actually outnumbered and outkilled us without the help of the wolf, who had a p much built in mole, which meant he'd rather eleminate us first, then just fool the village. Didn't help how the mole ended up being mekkah, and that our godfather who owned our roles that we needed to win was ipl(keeping ipl alive is toooo hard).
Now then, as I already mentioned, we were always playing around with the idea of Mekkah being with the wolf. First because of the wolf thing being a virus, which may be spread. This led to us suspecting the rev mart to be Mekkah or at the very least wolf converted. Either way aska delivered the proof we needed, the WildEep log, tbh I don't get why people didn't find that much more suspicous, if Eep wanted a fake leak he would have used a channel far more populated. Either way I regret not BGing Pblade, alas I believed this to be some trick by the village, paranoid in the wrong direction>_>... So US decided to do some calculations how we could win, alas he depended on misslynches and that ipl would survive(the first one happened, but we assumed the numerous village info roles actually worked), the revealing mekkah plan came up by that time already, and US wanted me to write up a plan how we could win with that, so I did. Not before wasting a lot of hours on first trying to prove to him that we lose in every other case, which was the truth, we needed ipl alive to have any chance, and even then needed a couple of misslynches and atleast one ipl lynch.(which is p counterproductive when it comes to keeping ipl alive...). So basically what was this plan? Where did it come from? I made a calculations how the game would end in even the best case where mekkah would go as far as aiding us in a lynch(when he killed off every villager who knew his alias...), and even then we always lose, because always all that would remain is a Mekkah controlled army of villagers, who at that point wouldn't listen to the rambling of the losing mafia. So basically we had a single plan that had a chance to succeed. Now I have heard a couple of complaints that don't just say that it was stupid. Like why at night, why so early. Both were similar in reasoning. For one we depended on Ditto being alive, as a powerholder who has access to the channel where Eep slipped. We did it at night because we didn't know who he was and didn't want him to die, also this way he had time to think about it and wouldn't be pressed by the deadline of the lynch. If we had known he was the Dog this would have been easier, since we didn't plan to kill the dog due to the lack of voting power. Eo was also invited as a backup and a false lead, can't hurt to make a guy look scummy lol.
Sure the plan was terrible, but it was our only hope, our only option(that didn't depend on our opponents fucking up, no trying to make the village lynch a wolf mole isn't depending on the opponents to fuck up...). Sure I don't think we deserved the win at all since our last hope failed. Sure people wouldn't have done the same thing but I'm sure people could have easily ended up in the same position as us and would have had to make a decision, but I'm sure they would have found no way out either, though at this point it's pointless to think up ways now that we know everything, that'd sure influence everyone. One thing is clear, people would have either given up in our situation or would have kept trying. And if you are trying to win weakening a faction is unavoidable, and everyone would likely try to eleminate their reason for losing, and for us that reason was clearly the mole in the village. First we tried to out him, it failed. Some would have waited with it, sure, but we assumed that the longer we wait, the lower the chances are for us to actually convince the village. Fact is, you know very well Mekkah that at one point we would have had to sell you out to win, that is clear. And you can't deny the less informed villagers are left, the likelier it is for them to just follow you blindly. If anything, the fact we found you out meant you will most likely lose the game. Whenever we try to convince the village and end up failing, we would just kill you and push for a WildEep lynch as our only chance, and even if that fails, most likely kill him off too... If we aren't dead by that time. Then we depend on the remaining villagers fucking up... Sounds similar doesn't it? If you say we fucked you over for no reason, realise that what ever happened we would always "fuck you over for no reason". Sure the timing may have been illogical, but even at the logical times it would have failed(If you can talk yourself out off that, then you can talk yourself out off it when our actions seem even more desperate). In retrospect the wolf pair was off much worse than the mafia with all the info roles being around to fuck their plans over(not to mention losing that LPV, wow).
The game itself was fun though, at least for the mafia, we had fun planning shit, and the thief+diamond was just so freaking lucky. The game was enjoyable, bit unbalanced but enjoyable. The concept was also fresh(I do dislike how the mafia depended on a single role's survival though) and interesting in a new way. Village became a major power, the wolf was much stealthly than a brute force, and the mafia was highly informed to say so.
Awaiting bashing in 3, 2, 1...
Now then, I will clarify a few things, why we did this and that, for an exmaple wanting to kill the reverse martyr. The reason we wanted to do that instead of aiming at the BG/Doctor was because we weren't sure who held the Bubble House, we didn't want one of our kills be wasted, nor did we want to steal from both the BG and the revmart since that could end up as a double target on the revmart. Either way we wanted sure kills, and the rev mart was in the way of that because we couldn't deal with both him and the bubble house at the same time, not without giving up some inspects that is. We ended up killing the Taxi Driver though since it could screw over a lot of our roles. Tbh we only decided to go for that, because we believed him to be Mekkah and recruited by the wolf, we found wildeep to be a bit overprotective when it came to the revmart(funny I think the whole game we made up reasons why mekkah would be with the wolf, and when we found he actually was we weren't really surprised). So our targets got p limited, we didn't want to off the BG because we didn't want to hit the Bubble House, while we didn't want to kill the rev mart for the above reasons. Just like Mekkah we didn't want to reveal the Bubble House, due to that revealing ipl, who was our goddamned godfather, so we couldn't ask for more info and we mostly had villagers at the point.
As for the talk Nachos and WildEep had, our original intention was to use the Mekkah confirmation aska got us from the channel where WildEep slipped to pressure WildEep to give us info. Alas we wanted to do that while Mekkah was offline, alas whenever Nachos was on alongside with WildEep Mekkah was always on. So in the end we settled for the WildEEp is moling alone talk, this way we could get more info still, and had Mekkah is wolf as a backup plan.
And now we are getting to the biggest moment in the game, that all other factions think was a mistake. I'm still sticking to my claim that the mafia was the weakest faction, the village actually outnumbered and outkilled us without the help of the wolf, who had a p much built in mole, which meant he'd rather eleminate us first, then just fool the village. Didn't help how the mole ended up being mekkah, and that our godfather who owned our roles that we needed to win was ipl(keeping ipl alive is toooo hard).
Now then, as I already mentioned, we were always playing around with the idea of Mekkah being with the wolf. First because of the wolf thing being a virus, which may be spread. This led to us suspecting the rev mart to be Mekkah or at the very least wolf converted. Either way aska delivered the proof we needed, the WildEep log, tbh I don't get why people didn't find that much more suspicous, if Eep wanted a fake leak he would have used a channel far more populated. Either way I regret not BGing Pblade, alas I believed this to be some trick by the village, paranoid in the wrong direction>_>... So US decided to do some calculations how we could win, alas he depended on misslynches and that ipl would survive(the first one happened, but we assumed the numerous village info roles actually worked), the revealing mekkah plan came up by that time already, and US wanted me to write up a plan how we could win with that, so I did. Not before wasting a lot of hours on first trying to prove to him that we lose in every other case, which was the truth, we needed ipl alive to have any chance, and even then needed a couple of misslynches and atleast one ipl lynch.(which is p counterproductive when it comes to keeping ipl alive...). So basically what was this plan? Where did it come from? I made a calculations how the game would end in even the best case where mekkah would go as far as aiding us in a lynch(when he killed off every villager who knew his alias...), and even then we always lose, because always all that would remain is a Mekkah controlled army of villagers, who at that point wouldn't listen to the rambling of the losing mafia. So basically we had a single plan that had a chance to succeed. Now I have heard a couple of complaints that don't just say that it was stupid. Like why at night, why so early. Both were similar in reasoning. For one we depended on Ditto being alive, as a powerholder who has access to the channel where Eep slipped. We did it at night because we didn't know who he was and didn't want him to die, also this way he had time to think about it and wouldn't be pressed by the deadline of the lynch. If we had known he was the Dog this would have been easier, since we didn't plan to kill the dog due to the lack of voting power. Eo was also invited as a backup and a false lead, can't hurt to make a guy look scummy lol.
Sure the plan was terrible, but it was our only hope, our only option(that didn't depend on our opponents fucking up, no trying to make the village lynch a wolf mole isn't depending on the opponents to fuck up...). Sure I don't think we deserved the win at all since our last hope failed. Sure people wouldn't have done the same thing but I'm sure people could have easily ended up in the same position as us and would have had to make a decision, but I'm sure they would have found no way out either, though at this point it's pointless to think up ways now that we know everything, that'd sure influence everyone. One thing is clear, people would have either given up in our situation or would have kept trying. And if you are trying to win weakening a faction is unavoidable, and everyone would likely try to eleminate their reason for losing, and for us that reason was clearly the mole in the village. First we tried to out him, it failed. Some would have waited with it, sure, but we assumed that the longer we wait, the lower the chances are for us to actually convince the village. Fact is, you know very well Mekkah that at one point we would have had to sell you out to win, that is clear. And you can't deny the less informed villagers are left, the likelier it is for them to just follow you blindly. If anything, the fact we found you out meant you will most likely lose the game. Whenever we try to convince the village and end up failing, we would just kill you and push for a WildEep lynch as our only chance, and even if that fails, most likely kill him off too... If we aren't dead by that time. Then we depend on the remaining villagers fucking up... Sounds similar doesn't it? If you say we fucked you over for no reason, realise that what ever happened we would always "fuck you over for no reason". Sure the timing may have been illogical, but even at the logical times it would have failed(If you can talk yourself out off that, then you can talk yourself out off it when our actions seem even more desperate). In retrospect the wolf pair was off much worse than the mafia with all the info roles being around to fuck their plans over(not to mention losing that LPV, wow).
The game itself was fun though, at least for the mafia, we had fun planning shit, and the thief+diamond was just so freaking lucky. The game was enjoyable, bit unbalanced but enjoyable. The concept was also fresh(I do dislike how the mafia depended on a single role's survival though) and interesting in a new way. Village became a major power, the wolf was much stealthly than a brute force, and the mafia was highly informed to say so.
Awaiting bashing in 3, 2, 1...
This game sort of reminded me of some sort of RPS type of mafia. The mafia had an advantage over the wolf, because we could find him easily with all of our inspects and we had greater numbers and powers than him. The wolf, however, had an easy in to the village, making it easy to manipulate them into a wolf victory. The village's lead over the mafia was in part due to this, because the wolf-led village would want mafia to die at day and villagers to die at night, and since the village had so much information, a mafia lynch was almost certain for almost every cycle.
And as we all know, RPS comes down to random factors. As did this game.
And as we all know, RPS comes down to random factors. As did this game.
Walrein: everyone makes mistakes, the real problem is not learning from them. If it was a good learning experience for you it's fine.
I am too tired to read everyone else's posts right now but thank you for chiming in!
ETA:
zorbees: I don't see many random elements in this :S The village's loss came down to two misplays (not random), though Mekkah's loss came down to kingmaker (which was pretty much random). I mostly see this game being decided by a series of misplays on everyone's end. It's only really RPSy if the factions are at least close to even, but they were all very different.
LightWolfy: You know I'd never bash you <3
Okay, I think the Bubble House thing is understandable... at least why you would be secretive about that, but it's Mekkah who that concerns, not me :X Were you aware at that point that Wild Eep had some kind of reliable village info (and therefore you could probably trust him not to give you a Bubble Housed target)?
lol 'keeping ipl alive is toooo hard' having to keep the diamond off him is hard enough x_x The Eo thing did work at least... I feel kinda dumb for walking into that but we were sort of up against a brick wall and after he was lynched I narrowed them down anyway. Sorry, Eo! You wouldn't happen to have those calculations backed up btw? I remember doing a lot of math around that time and after to calculate if we could win; I'd be interested to compare your win plan to mine.
Thanks for posting your explanation!
1. Vital role like inspector
2. Reputation for being a good player
That pretty much narrows it down to a preselected group as well, since it means if you aren't a 'big name', you need your role to be good in order to have a chance at involvement. And even if you have a really good role, the leader might hold you at arm's length anyway in favour of people s/he wants to help plan. So the masons system doesn't actually change all that much in the scheme of things. But I did acknowledge it basically locks a lot of people out, including anyone on the mafia who wants to mole, which I don't see as a healthy thing for the village. I'm just saying it's a problem with most villages.
But yeah, your role sucked. And thanks for your comments! I know I wouldn't have talked as much. I had a post written up for LN's postgame that was basically 10% the size of how much I wrote in this one. Since it fell more to us to explain everything that happened to everyone (though obviously we had to gloss over the mafia, which is why I'm glad the goons are posting their perspectives too), we had to write a hell of a lot, but if this postgame was written by the host, then I know I wouldn't've explained as much. Don't know about Mekkah.
RBG: Well, Mekkah would know better than me how long his postgame came out, but we were told the MM2 postgame would come out a few days after the game because it was nearly complete, and since LN ignores us if we say anything to him with postgame in it, we figured he doesn't want to write or talk about it. I don't think we did anything wrong, though I apologise if I offended you, LN.
I am too tired to read everyone else's posts right now but thank you for chiming in!
ETA:
zorbees: I don't see many random elements in this :S The village's loss came down to two misplays (not random), though Mekkah's loss came down to kingmaker (which was pretty much random). I mostly see this game being decided by a series of misplays on everyone's end. It's only really RPSy if the factions are at least close to even, but they were all very different.
LightWolfy: You know I'd never bash you <3
Okay, I think the Bubble House thing is understandable... at least why you would be secretive about that, but it's Mekkah who that concerns, not me :X Were you aware at that point that Wild Eep had some kind of reliable village info (and therefore you could probably trust him not to give you a Bubble Housed target)?
lol 'keeping ipl alive is toooo hard' having to keep the diamond off him is hard enough x_x The Eo thing did work at least... I feel kinda dumb for walking into that but we were sort of up against a brick wall and after he was lynched I narrowed them down anyway. Sorry, Eo! You wouldn't happen to have those calculations backed up btw? I remember doing a lot of math around that time and after to calculate if we could win; I'd be interested to compare your win plan to mine.
Thanks for posting your explanation!
BT: I disagree with you. Not that your role never would have been involved, it's basically got Dragonite syndrome. But in a normal big game most villagers aren't involved much anyway. The difference with masons is that the involved villagers are basically taken from a preselected group. Yet in a big game, you're only getting in the village circle if you have at least one of these two things (depending on the leader):
1. Vital role like inspector
2. Reputation for being a good player
That pretty much narrows it down to a preselected group as well, since it means if you aren't a 'big name', you need your role to be good in order to have a chance at involvement. And even if you have a really good role, the leader might hold you at arm's length anyway in favour of people s/he wants to help plan. So the masons system doesn't actually change all that much in the scheme of things. But I did acknowledge it basically locks a lot of people out, including anyone on the mafia who wants to mole, which I don't see as a healthy thing for the village. I'm just saying it's a problem with most villages.
But yeah, your role sucked. And thanks for your comments! I know I wouldn't have talked as much. I had a post written up for LN's postgame that was basically 10% the size of how much I wrote in this one. Since it fell more to us to explain everything that happened to everyone (though obviously we had to gloss over the mafia, which is why I'm glad the goons are posting their perspectives too), we had to write a hell of a lot, but if this postgame was written by the host, then I know I wouldn't've explained as much. Don't know about Mekkah.
RBG: Well, Mekkah would know better than me how long his postgame came out, but we were told the MM2 postgame would come out a few days after the game because it was nearly complete, and since LN ignores us if we say anything to him with postgame in it, we figured he doesn't want to write or talk about it. I don't think we did anything wrong, though I apologise if I offended you, LN.
I don't think we have US's calculations offhand (I probably do have them but I would need to open my laptop and rifle through logs for them)
However, we do have the ones for the plan we attempted to carry out: Here (Iceland's post)
At that point, we were aware of basically all relevant villagers, including the lynch redirect/mayor and the 1.1 voter and planned to kill them before their abilities would be relevant
With regards to the Life thing: I believe someone in the mafia channel mentioned that ipl had already gotten all that info from him when I told them "Hey Life said he's this and this" (I don't think he actually mentioned what his item did, he just said he had one and posted the log Pluff mentioned). I don't know if he forgot I was in the game or not. He might have, since the channel wasn't related to Smogon at all.
Also Mekkah obligates me to yell at my team for not bging me.
However, we do have the ones for the plan we attempted to carry out: Here (Iceland's post)
At that point, we were aware of basically all relevant villagers, including the lynch redirect/mayor and the 1.1 voter and planned to kill them before their abilities would be relevant
Also me!
Yeah, you did tell me (although I had already lost too much sleep over it ;/). The death was more problematic because it put us behind in numbers. I faked a power role because we were unaware of the masons when we were setting up fakes, and my role was powerful enough that it would be believable as a town non-villager (and apparently it was, although, yeah, I didn't actually get any info for it). It's unfortunate that moling was never going to work out unless we somehow killed all the masons very quickly, but...
With regards to the Life thing: I believe someone in the mafia channel mentioned that ipl had already gotten all that info from him when I told them "Hey Life said he's this and this" (I don't think he actually mentioned what his item did, he just said he had one and posted the log Pluff mentioned). I don't know if he forgot I was in the game or not. He might have, since the channel wasn't related to Smogon at all.
Also Mekkah obligates me to yell at my team for not bging me.
I won't comment too much for now since I have yet to read the entire thing due to how tired I am, and that jumpluff elaborated on most of the important points as far as my involvement in the doc, but I would just like to say that I really like the precedent being set here: A postgame being written by the two most involved players instead of the lazy host!
DLE:
Best
claim
ever
Best
claim
ever
hey
hey yanny
I BEAT YOU
[02:45:04] <&Walrein> Singapore claims to be mekkah
[02:45:07] <~lynne\tf2> lol
[02:45:07] <~lynne\tf2> OH MY GOD
[02:45:08] <~lynne\tf2> YES
[02:45:08] <~lynne\tf2> PLEASE
[02:45:08] <~lynne\tf2> YES
[02:45:09] <~lynne\tf2> PLEASE
[02:45:09] <~lynne\tf2> ..
[02:45:11] <~lynne\tf2> i bet mekakh is the wolf
[02:45:12] <~lynne\tf2> T___T
hey yanny
I BEAT YOU
[02:45:04] <&Walrein> Singapore claims to be mekkah
[02:45:07] <~lynne\tf2> lol
[02:45:07] <~lynne\tf2> OH MY GOD
[02:45:08] <~lynne\tf2> YES
[02:45:08] <~lynne\tf2> PLEASE
[02:45:08] <~lynne\tf2> YES
[02:45:09] <~lynne\tf2> PLEASE
[02:45:09] <~lynne\tf2> ..
[02:45:11] <~lynne\tf2> i bet mekakh is the wolf
[02:45:12] <~lynne\tf2> T___T
Oh how wrong you are.
Pluff: The point I was trying to make was that having an already established "village core" comes in place of villagers having a more equal (obviously not equal) chance of forming and getting in that core. You can't really argue against that.
Pluff: The point I was trying to make was that having an already established "village core" comes in place of villagers having a more equal (obviously not equal) chance of forming and getting in that core. You can't really argue against that.
Agape: I hope I didn't come off as too harsh x_x; It wasn't my intention. It'll be nice to see you more active again!
B_T: Oh, no, I thought I made it clear that I agree? I'm just saying that it makes little impact in practical terms, because the village leader system does a good enough job of shutting people out already.
Quagsires: I think your role actually made a goon idle once b/c they thought it was a real hook, but I'd need a fact check on that one.
B_T: Oh, no, I thought I made it clear that I agree? I'm just saying that it makes little impact in practical terms, because the village leader system does a good enough job of shutting people out already.
Quagsires: I think your role actually made a goon idle once b/c they thought it was a real hook, but I'd need a fact check on that one.