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Magmortar (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by erisia, Dec 11, 2011.

  1. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Twisted firestartah'!

    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>Magmortar is undeniably one of the greatest offensive threats in the NU metagame, with an incredible base 125 Special Attack stat and an outstanding array of coverage options. Only a select few can repeatedly take Magmortar's attacks, with many being hit super effectively by a coverage move or simply being roasted outright by Fire Blast. Furthermore, previous checks such as Lanturn are no longer available in the NU tier to stop it, making it even more of a destructive force. Magmortar also retains its versatility from the previous generation, functioning well as either a wallbreaker with a Life Orb or Choice Specs, or a potent revenge killer with a Choice Scarf. However, whilst Magmortar is pretty fast with a respectable base 83 Speed stat, it unfortunately falls just short of many of the tier's common revenge killers, such as Sawk and Rotom-S, making it difficult for it to sweep outright until these threats are removed. Whilst the addition of Flame Charge to Magmortar's movepool can help it get around these revenge killers, it forces Magmortar to sacrifice coverage, letting it be walled more easily by conventional counters. Nevertheless, Magmortar is extremely potent and places the opponent under pressure to deal with it quickly, or risk being destroyed by its arsenal of attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Vital Spirit
    nature: Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With its incredible Special Attack stat, outstanding super effective coverage, and the ability to switch between its attacks at will, Magmortar can be incredibly hard to wall; almost any defensive Pokemon in the NU tier can be dealt with using the appropriate coverage move. Fire Blast is Magmortar's default STAB attack, dealing massive damage to almost anything that doesn't resist it and having enough power to OHKO most offensive switch-ins outright. Thunderbolt is a somewhat unique option amongst Fire-types and lets Magmortar 2HKO many of the remaining Water-typed Pokemon in the tier with ease, such as Alomomola and Wartortle, often OHKOing them if they try to take a Fire Blast beforehand. Focus Blast gives Magmortar a solid option against Rock-types such as Regirock and Gigalith, who could otherwise threaten it with a super effective Stone Edge, whilst Hidden Power can be used to hit specific niche threats. Water / Ground-types such as Quagsire are dealt with by Hidden Power Grass, while Hidden Power Ice hits Altaria —who would otherwise be able to force Magmortar out —for massive damage. All in all, there are very few Pokemon who are able to stand up to this combination of attacks, especially when they are coming from Magmortar's massive Special Attack stat.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread and a Timid nature lets Magmortar outspeed all Pokemon with Base 80 Speed or below, such as Altaria and Braviary, and by extension most of NU's defensive Pokemon, with Special Attack being maximized and the rest being poured into Magmortar's HP stat for extra bulk. While a Modest nature can be used to further augment Magmortar's power, it doesn't make a lot of difference against most targets and can result in Magmortar being outsped by a larger variety of offensive Pokemon, reducing its utility overall. A Life Orb is used as the default item, as it gives Magmortar the power it needs to ensure 2HKOs against defensive targets and OHKOs against offensive ones, whilst letting Magmortar switch attacks freely as the situation requires. Choice Specs can be used instead to provide even more power and prevent Magmortar from killing itself with recoil damage, but it appreciates the versatility more in most scenarios. Thus, using an Expert Belt is often the better choice if you want to avoid recoil, or alternatively, to bait the opponent and hit them with a super effective coverage move when they least suspect it.</p>

    <p>Magmortar can also use a physical attack instead of Hidden Power to deal with a specific threat, provided you divert the HP EVs into Attack and use a nature that doesn't hinder Magmortar's Attack stat. Earthquake is by far the best in this tier, hitting the specially defensive Fire-types that can usually deal with Magmortar (such as Camerupt and Flareon) extremely hard, 2HKOing them without entry hazard support. It also OHKOes opposing Magmortar after Stealth Rock, Spikes or a round of Life Orb recoil, which will cut their sweep short. Cross Chop is also available to hit specially defensive Normal-type Pokemon such as Lickilicky, but isn't as effective in this tier because many of them also have respectable physical Defense, unlike Blissey in OU and to an extent, Munchlax in RU. If you can put up with the extra residual damage or can give Magmortar Wish or Leech Seed support, Substitute is also a great option to use instead of one of Magmortar's coverage moves. Whilst it somewhat reduces Magmortar's coverage, Magmortar can force switches easily and set one up with ease, preventing it from being revenge killed as easily and forcing the opponent to take a powerful hit while Magmortar remains relatively safe.</p>

    <p>Since Magmortar can only use four attacks at once, it may be worth using team-mates to fill in the gaps in its coverage. For instance, use a Grass-type Pokemon such as Exeggutor to deal with Quagsire if you lack Hidden Power Grass, or use Lapras to deal with Fire types if you lack Earthquake (in addition to Altaria) Magmortar also really appreciates Rapid Spin support because it is vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards, and it also takes a lot of residual damage from its Life Orb; without Rapid Spin support this residual damage could eventually overwhelm Magmortar during the endgame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Grass
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Vital Spirit
    nature: Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Choice Scarf, Magmortar outspeeds almost all unboosted Pokemon, as well as many other Choice Scarf users and stat boosters, such as Dragon Dance Altaria and Modest Shell Smash Gorebyss, which lets it revenge kill them easily. In this case, Magmortar shifts team roles entirely, turning from a powerful wallbreaker into an insurance against other sweepers. With Magmortar's plethora of attacking options, almost any offensive Pokemon can either be hit hard by Fire Blast or hit super effectively by a coverage move, making Choice Scarf Magmortar a universal threat to offensive playstyles. In this case, Hidden Power Ice is more valuable than Hidden Power Grass because Magmortar isn't attempting to wallbreak, and prefers revenge killing Altaria to beating Quagsire. Other than that small change, Magmortar retains all of its normal offensive options, and loses little functionality other than the ability to switch moves.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Overheat can be used as an alternative STAB option over Fire Blast to compensate for the lack of a power-boosting item, and the stat-dropping side effect is less noticeable on this set because Magmortar will often switch out after attacking anyway. However, Fire Blast is arguably more useful late-game, as it can allow Magmortar to single-handedly sweep through an offensive team once its counters and faster Choice Scarf users are removed. Likewise, Magmortar can afford to use a Modest nature on this set as it still gets away with outspeeding Pokemon such as Swellow, although it misses out on faster Choice Scarf users. While Earthquake can also be used on this set instead of Hidden Power, it becomes less effective without a boosting item, and it's generally inadvisable when so many Pokemon can switch into it and begin setting up. Since Magmortar will often be throwing about Fire Blasts in response to offensive threats, it's a good idea to pack a response to Flash Fire users (such as Flareon) and other bulky responses (such as Altaria) somewhere in your team, such as Quagsire and Gigalith respectively. This set in particular also requires Rapid Spin support, as it will be switching in and out constantly to deal with the opponent's offensive pokemon as they appear. If the opponent has used Stealth Rock, Magmortar can only come in a maximum of five times, meaning it can be eventually be stalled out if the opponent predicts correctly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Flame Charge
    move 1: Flame Charge
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Vital Spirit
    nature: Naive / Hasty
    EVs: 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Flame Charge is one of the only additions to Magmortar's movepool in the newest generation, and combines the raw power of the wallbreaker set with the speed of the Choice Scarf one, which allows Magmortar to potentially sweep through unprepared teams. Whilst Flame Charge is primarily used to boost Magmortar's Speed stat, it is also a reasonably useful attack in its own right, breaking the Focus Sash of leads and Pokemon with Magic Guard as well as preventing Sturdy users such as Sawk from impeding its progress. In addition, it still has enough power to OHKO even defensive Jynx and Cryogonal, and 2HKO opponents such as Cacturne, Pinsir, Haunter, and Kadabra. As usual, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt are present, to generally destroy things and break through bulky Water-type Pokemon, respectively. Earthquake is the coverage option of choice here as it lets Magmortar get past opposing Magmortar, as well as Camerupt and Flareon, more easily. Hidden Power Ice is also good because it allows Magmortar to KO offensive Altaria, whilst Hidden Power Grass is less useful because Quagsire is hardly going to sweep your team as long as you pack a Grass-type move on something else. Once Magmortar has the boost from Flame Charge, and its specific counters have been dealt with, it can be extremely difficult to stop this offensive juggernaut.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>While a Naive nature is used to reduce Magmortar's vulnerability to priority moves, Sucker Punches from Pokemon such as Absol and Cacturne will often OHKO regardless due to Life Orb recoil, so a Hasty nature can be used instead to let Magmortar come in on special attacks more easily, thanks to its respectable 75 / 95 defenses. Magmortar can use other niche moves in the fourth moveslot to deal with specific threats, with Focus Blast being an option if you're seriously scared of Regirock and Thick Fat Miltank. Hidden Power Water also guarantees the OHKO on physically defensive Camerupt, but hits nothing else. As Magmortar is boosting its Speed stat, you can also shift EVs into HP and Defense instead to allow Magmortar to tank resisted hits and priority attacks better, and thus get more boosts, but this could potentially leave Magmortar a sitting duck against offensive teams if it fails to get those boosts initially. As Magmortar's coverage is not as extensive as usual with this set, it is important to provide solid responses to the threats that can now withstand his attacks. Exeggutor deals with physically defensive Rock-types such as Gigalith with ease, in addition to Quagsire. Rapid Spin support remains as important as ever since Magmortar will be losing health to Stealth Rock, Spikes and Life Orb recoil throughout the match, and this can limit the number of times Magmortar can attempt to set up significantly.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Vital Spirit is the default ability, as it lets Magmortar come in against Sleep inducers such as Jynx and Tangela much more reliably, making it a more effective offensive Pokemon. However, Flame Body is also pretty useful for punishing physical attackers that try to to abuse Magmortar's low Defense stat, and is also good at neutering priority attackers such as Absol and Cacturne. Be aware that Earthquake and Stone Edge don't trigger Flame Body, however, making it somewhat difficult to activate in this metagame. Whilst Magmortar could run a SubPunch set like it does in other tiers, this largely isn't necessary in NU as Focus Punch's key targets are absent from the tier, making Focus Blast a superior option. Mach Punch gives Magmortar some (albeit weak) priority for finishing off Sturdy Pokemon, whilst Taunt puts the walls that Magmortar can't beat into uncomfortable positions. Belly Drum is also available, and can be interesting when combined with Flame Charge, but it can be seriously hard to abuse due to the proliferation of Sucker Punch users. Stealth Rock support lets Magmortar beat opposing Fire-types more comfortably, while sun support turns Magmortar into a nuke capable of leveling even the most defensive walls, with a combination of Fire Blast / SolarBeam / Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Magmortar's counters largely depend on what coverage move it is not running. If it lacks Hidden Power Grass, specially defensive Quagsire can set up on it reliably, whilst Altaria can do the same if Magmortar lacks Hidden Power Ice. Specially defensive Fire-types such as Lampent, Camerupt, and Flareon, also beat Magmortar if it lacks Earthquake, although repeated Focus Blasts can wear them down if you lack other options. However, it's often much easier to revenge kill Magmortar than it is to wall it, with powerful Pokemon such as Sawk and Swellow being able to force Magmortar out once they get a free switch in. Likewise, Sucker Punch users, such as Cacturne, Absol, and Skuntank, can capitalize on Magmortar's low physical Defense and force it out, even if it manages to accrue Speed boosts with Flame Charge. Whilst few can switch into Magmortar's moves directly, many are able to threaten it once it scores a kill, which lets the opponent seize momentum and potentially gain an advantage.</p>
  2. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    Just a quick glance, but why are all your sets +SpA and not +Spe? Magmortar really wants to outspeed +spe base 80 Pokemon (and the Pokemon that aim to outspeed them). It also doesn't get any notable KO's with Modest that it doesn't with Timid to my knowledge.
  3. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Noted, changed. Modest gets the OHKO on Roselia but hat's not really worth mentioning.
  4. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    Definitely make the natures Timid and Naive, respectively so you can get the jump on all base 80s and just mention the + SpA natures in AC. make sure to emphasize you don't outrun all base 80s, just neutral which can be a big drawback. Put a SubPunch set in OO as a wallbreaker since it's actually pretty decent. Once you do all that,

    [​IMG]

    QC 1/3
  5. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Isn't SubPunch Magmortar outclassed by Emboar? He gets STAB Focus Punch, better Attack and can make 101 HP Subs. And the Speed doesn't matter when you're Focus Punching.
  6. Endorfins

    Endorfins Your Worst Nightmare
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    i think lanturn should get a mention in checks and counters
    it is normally EVd to not be 2HKOed by hp grass
  7. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    Both Slowking and Lanturn need to be mentioned in counters for now (though they might move up still), as well as SR. Indirect damage from hazards and LO is probably the best way to handle Magmortar aside from outspeeding it. All the spreads need to be +Spe because that base 80 Speed tier is just far too important to outrun; Modest can be mentioned in AC. Vital Spirit is actually kinda useful in that it gives you a way to beat down Smeargle if that's to your taste. Both abilities are kind of niche anyway. Also, you can remove the DW section and simply add it to OO because it's released (and if it's not you fuckers better stop using it on the ladder to beat my Smeargle kthx).

    Also @ SubPunch: Magmortar has Thunderbolt/Fire Blast to break down other walls whereas Emboar only has its Fighting-type STAB. It's OO material regardless, so it's not like being outclassed matters much in the end anyway. I'll QC approve after changes are made.

    edit: also you only need to hit 285 Speed on all sets so you jump base 80s, nothing important hits base 81/82
  8. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Focus Punch doesn't hit anything that Focus Blast doesn't and lets Magmortar get walled by Regirock. I don't see the point in running it in this metagame where there aren't any Chanseys to hit with it.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb / Choice Scarf
    ability: Flame Body
    nature: Modest
    EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

    Should really be split into two sets, one with Life Orb and one with Choice Scarf. They have completely different purposes. At least in my opinion.
  10. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Yeah, I'm fine with that. The RU analysis had them merged so I erred on the side of caution, but I'm happy splitting them.
  11. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    yeah, me and Zebraiken discussed this on IRC and Choice Scarf should get it's own set - exact same as the Special Attacker but with Choice Scarf since, again, they play really differently. Make sure to mention that and emphasize it.
  12. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Yep. Also, to Zebraiken, Magmortar actually reaches a bonus point from 284 to 286, so 286 is the lowest it can go. :p

    Would like some opinions on the SubPunch set. I'm not a fan but I haven't tested it whilst I have tested the All Out Attacker and Flame Charge, so I'd like a third opinion.
  13. Endorfins

    Endorfins Your Worst Nightmare
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    im no qc but sub punch is really unnecessasry
    there is basically nothing that it hits harder than focus blast thunderbolt or fire blast
    athough sub +3 attacks can definately work as magmortar causes quite a few switches and has great 3 move coverage
  14. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    Oh, coolio. I haven't played around with Magmortar myself too much so I wouldn't have known that. XD

    SubPunch really only should be OO, if anything. It works okay against teams relying on Lickilicky to beat it but the rest of the time Magmortar is better off spamming its powerful special attacks. Give the Scarf set a mention aaaaand

    [​IMG]

    QC Approved (2/3)
  15. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Yeah, I might mention Substitute in the AC for the LO Attacker. Residual damage issues aside, Substitute is great for cock-blocking all those Scarfed checks and Absol, and it lets Magmortar abuse Flame Body more.

    And okay, I'll mention SubPunch in OO, but don't expect me to give it any praise. :p
  16. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Looks good. Modest is better than you'd think, especially when you're going toe-to-toe with things like Slowking. Sub is decent, Focus Punch is bad.

    [​IMG]
  17. Endorfins

    Endorfins Your Worst Nightmare
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    would modest be better on a scarf set?
  18. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Timid Scarf lets Magmortar outspeed Adamant base 85 Scarfers like Sawk and Pinsir, which can both bypass Flame Body and are a huge threat otherwise. AC is all it needs.
  19. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Actually, I just noticed this - why is Flame Body the main option? Sleep is more common than you'd think. Magmortar is a good switch-in to Sleep Powder from things like Tangela and Roselia, and it makes a good lead to fend off the evil incarnate that is Smeargle (this is another good reason to run Timid).
  20. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Oooh, forgot about those. That and the fact that a lot of things that can kill Magmortar tend to use Earthquake, which bypasses Flame Body, makes me reconsider. I'll mention Flame Body in OO but with all the Earthquake users it's probably less useful than I make out.

    Anyways, this is pretty much done unless there's anything else that needs tweaking. Didn't feel Psychic and Rock Slide were worth mentioning since they hit literally nothing harder than Fire Blast, Thunderbolt or Earthquake. Mentioned Flareon as a counter since it can tank your attacks (other than Earthquake) all day and slowly wear you down with Toxic, LO recoil and boosted Lava Plumes.
  21. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    maybe mention Specially Defensive Camerupt as a Check/Counter as it resists Fire Blast, is immune to Thunderbolt, and HP Grass/Ice are neutral and weak. Magmortar's best option is to Focus Blast which on the LO set is only a 3HKO and on the scarf set is a 3/4HKO, while Camerupt can hit Magmortar hard with Earth Power and likely to OHKO it after rocks.
  22. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Specially Defensive Camerupt doesn't exist according to the usage stats, and Physically Defense Camerupt is 2HKO'd by Fire Blast with SR, or 2HKO'd by Focus Blast + Fire Blast. It can't switch in, so I'm not mentioning it.
  23. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Specially Defensive Camerupt doesn't exist according to the usage stats because it just started to see use this month, and its popularity has been rapidly increasing; if Slowking and Lanturn leave (Very likely because of their usage in the past months.) then Camerupt will probably seen even more use since it'd be one of the only things that can properly counter Magmortar.

    If you still have doubts about Specially Defensive Camerupt you could always wait until the December usage stats are posted, but trust me: it's good. And I'm sure Zebraiken and tennisace can attest to that.
  24. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, I haven't seen it once yet, but if you two are seeing it I'll mention it.
  25. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    Yea, Camerupt's solid. And at this point, the usage stats are pretty outdated. :(

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