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magneton [qc 2/2] [gp 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Danilo, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    [Overview]

    <p>The concept of Magneton is a very simple one. Magneton is used on teams which benefit from the removal of Skarmory, and to a lesser extent the removal of Forretress; generally those teams centered around physical sweepers, such as Gyarados, Substitute + Swords Dance Heracross, and CurseLax, which struggle with Skarmory. Magneton can also be used to compliment teams which use Skarmory to lay down Spikes, removing the common Rapid Spin user Forretress with Hidden Power Fire, and allowing Skarmory to lay Spikes freely. However, those sorts of teams will massively struggle with a smartly played Cloyster, and as such are rather unreliable. Magneton overall should not be seen as a linchpin of a team, but as a tool used to increase the damage output and overall offensive effectiveness of a team's key members by removing their largest counters.</p>

    <p>Unfortunately, other than its designated Steel-trapping role, Magneton struggles to counter anything notable, despite its slew of resistances. This is largely due to very mediocre stats, and a crippling 4x weakness to the very common Ground-type moves. A RestTalk set can check most Gengar variants and RestTalk Zapdos with the correct investment, but otherwise Magneton, especially offensive variants, is largely a one-for-one trade if there are Steels to trap, and if there are not, it can often be a burdensome waste of a teamslot. The way to play Magneton in general is to play very conservatively before it has completed its function of Steel-type trapping and removal, and very aggressively after it has done so, freely sacrificing it unless it is needed to take a sleep-inducing move, or act as death or Wish fodder. RestTalk Magneton is an exception to the above statement. In a world of ideals, Magneton should attempt to get in on the Steel-type which it needs to trap on a predicted double switch. This is because high-standard opponents are likely to Whirlwind first with their Skarmory&mdash;or even worse, Earthquake with their Forretress&mdash;to check for the magnetic trio as opposed to blindly using Spikes, and if Magneton is switched into Skarmory again, it could be possibly met with a well-timed switch to Dugtrio.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Toxic / Metal Sound / Thunder Wave
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Magnet Pull
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is your bog-standard Magneton: it "does what it says on the tin", efficiently trapping and removing Skarmory and / or Forretress from the fray to allow powerful physical attackers to muscle their way through the opposing team with no pesky Steel-types stopping them. Thunderbolt is a quintessential attribute for every Magneton set, providing a powerful STAB move for it to utilize, and is a good way to dispatch Skarmory. The choice of Hidden Power is dependent on Magneton's teammates. Hidden Power Grass is a valid option, though Magneton should be used to form defensive holes in a team which is designed to accomodate Dragon Dance Salamence or CurseLax; the former sets up all over Forretress, and the latter forces it to unleash a weak Explosion. Both are checked by Swampert (the latter only by Curse variants though), which Magneton can almost make short work of with Hidden Power Grass; it does around 90% to it, although Swampert will most likely be weakened enough for Hidden Power Grass to kill, as the most likely scenario is that it has switched into one Hidden Power Flying from Salamence. However, Hidden Power Ice is also somewhat workable if Magneton is being used to support something like Dragon Dance Gyarados, which simply loves switching into both Forretres and Swampert, but won't enjoy taking Flygon's Rock Slides as much; Magneton is slower than Flygon, so Hidden Power Ice must be used from either behind a Substitute or on a predicted switch. Another reason to use Hidden Power Ice is that it covers Celebi and Dugtrio at the same time. Hidden Power Fire is a decent option in that it allows Magneton to also vanquish Forretress. Hidden Power Fire Magneton is most suited for support teams which utilize powerful physical sweepers such as Metagross and Choice Band Normal-types that are stopped by Forretress and Skarmory. Hidden Power Fire also gives Magneton-based teams a way to handle any Forretress using Spikes, as it is very uncommon to see Magneton alongside a spinner.</p>

    <p>Substitute is in the third slot because Magneton is able to force a decent amount of switches offensively, and then either hit switch-ins powerfully or status the opponent from its safety behind a Substitute. One of Magneton's few uses after Steel-type removal is switching in on a predicted switch to a bulky Water-type such as Milotic or Suicune, Substituting on the predicted switch out to the appropriate Magneton counter, and then choosing the appropriate move with no need to predict and strain the mind. The fourth slot can be filled with a variety of moves and is comparatively unimportant, as Magneton will often only get the chance to use one of its moves in a game situation due to the ubiquity of Dugtrio. As Magneton beats the majority of common Steel- and Poison-types, Toxic is a decent option to cover things which it cannot fell with its attacking moves. Toxic is also notable because SubToxic Magneton can either almost kill Swampert or force it to Rest as long as Swampert switches in. Metal Sound is also fairly viable; it works best alongside Spikes support, but can also act as a deterrent to Calm Mind users, such as Celebi, Raikou, Jirachi, and Blissey to an extent, who see Magneton for the most part as setup fodder. Thunder Wave is also viable, although less so than other moves as Thunder Wave Magneton will often have no way to fight back against teams with the correct Ground-type. However, it is great for taking the smirk off that Superachi's face, and will often find other uses in battle situations.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Magneton uses an uncomplicated EV spread that maximizes its effectiveness. 68 EVs are shifted into HP for that extra bit of generic bulk, but are rather irrelevant. A Modest nature and max Special Attack allows it to OHKO even the most specially defensive of Skarmory and Forretress. Magneton can potentially go faster with a Timid nature and hit around 244-246 Speed, but in doing so it loses out on that key OHKO on specially defensive Skarmory and Forretress. Magneton, if using Hidden Power Fire, MUST use a Modest nature, as Timid Magneton fails to OHKO 252 / 252+ Forretress. When considering partners for Magneton, you should not be thinking, "what can your team do for Magneton?", but "what can Magneton do for your team?" Magneton is an offensive trapping support Pokemon; it supports powerful physical attackers by trapping their counters. These physical attackers are Magneton's best partners. Gyarados and Salamence are particularly notable as partners for Magneton, because as well as Magneton opens up teams to be mauled by the pair, both aforementioned attackers share perfect type synergy with Magneton. Other physical attackers, such as Substitute Swords Dance Heracross, Swords Dance Heracross without Substitute, CurseLax, and Tauros, also fit in well alongside Magneton, all gaining a buff to their effectiveness when Skarmory and Forretress are not present.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Magnet Pull
    nature: Modest
    evs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rest and Sleep Talk form the crux of this set, increasing Magneton's staying power throughout the game by giving it a recovery method, albeit an unreliable one, and also allowing it to absorb Milotic and Gengar's multiple uses of Hypnosis and Jynx's Lovely Kisses, certainly a desirable attribute if your team lacks a sleep absorber. A Magneton with the given bulkier spread is able to switch in relatively safely on all of the aforementioned three (with the exception being if Gengar carries the rather uncommon Fire Punch or Focus Punch). Thunderbolt and a Hidden Power of choice is preferred. Grass is preferable if Magneton is being used to assist something such as Dragon Dance Salamence, which positively sets up on Forretress (even surviving an Intimidated Explosion), but will struggle to deal with Swampert; Ice is also quite useful if you need Magneton to be able to hurt both Celebi and Dugtrio at the same time, but Fire should be used if Magneton is being used to support something like Metagross or Tauros which will struggle muscling past Forretress, and also stopping Forretress from easily laying down Spikes against the team. RestTalk Magneton is able to deter special attackers, such as non-Fire Punch or Focus Punching Gengar, RestTalk Zapdos, and Porygon2, due to its handy resistance to the BoltBeam combination, an attribute otherwise only held by the relatively uncommon Lanturn and Shedinja, whose viability is massively nerfed due to the ubiquity of Tyranitar and the sandstorm it brings about.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>16 Speed EVs on Magneton allow it to outspeed the surprisingly common 12 and 8 Speed Skarmory, while a large chunk of investment in HP grants it all the bulk it can possibly have while still keeping the large Special Attack investment necessary to OHKO specially defensive Skarmory, Forretress, and threaten RestTalk Zapdos outside of sand. An alternative EV spread for this set is 252 HP / 44 SpA / 204 SpD / 16 Spe with a Calm nature. This spread allows Magneton to switch into Gengar and the rarer offensive Zapdos far better due to the increased investment in Special Defense, whilst still OHKOing standard physically defensive Skarmory with Thunderbolt. However, it is a poor idea to rely on Magneton as a full-time sole special wall due to its extreme vulnerability to Dugtrio. Another issue with this spread is that specially defensive Skarmory will not be OHKOed and thus Magneton is failing to do its most important job, and also that defensive RestTalk Zapdos only takes "chip damage" from this spread. Especially outside of sand, Magneton will not have the necessary firepower to threaten it and the pair will enter a drab and painful stall war, which will usually end up with Zapdos winning and Magneton literally struggling. Toxic can be used over a Hidden Power slot because nearly all switch-ins to RestTalk Magneton are not immune to it, and many things which are will be reluctant to take a Thunderbolt. However, not using Hidden Power makes Magneton an even bigger goober to Dugtrio. Optimal partners for this set are physical sweepers which enjoy the absence of Skarmory and Forretress such as Gyarados and Salamence. Other physical sweepers such as Swords Dance Heracross, CurseLax, and Tauros, will also have a much easier time sweeping with Steel-types gone.</p>

    [SET]
    name: EndSalac
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Endure
    move 4: Screech
    item: Salac Berry
    ability: Magnet Pull
    nature: Timid
    evs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The main trouble with the common Magneton is the tendency to be seized by Dugtrio's moley clutches at inopportune times. What if Magneton could turn the tables on Dugtrio and send it tunneling away back to its Poké Ball? This set is designed to complete exactly that function, and also after doing so potentially set up a revenge kill for your own Dugtrio. It is probably easiest to contextualize the moves on this set by inventing a common game scenario. After powering through Skarmory with a merciless Thunderbolt, the opponent brings in Dugtrio with a twisted grin smeared across his face as he clicks Earthquake. However, upon seeing the activation of a Salac Berry, the Dugtrio user adopts an expression of pure unadulterated terror. Dugtrio then proceeds to switch out as Magneton uses Hidden Power Grass or Ice, as both are viable options; Ice more so than on other sets due to Magneton's ability to outspeed Flygon after the activation of its Salac Berry. Hidden Power Fire should not be used on EndSalac Magneton due to the fact that Dugtrio is not OHKOed by it, and as such the purpose of the set is defeated. Most likely, the opponent will then switch out to Snorlax, Blissey, or Celebi to finish Magneton off while taking comparatively little from its attacks. As Snorlax, Blissey, or Celebi finishes Magneton off, Magneton Screeches so that the Adamant Dugtrio which follows up after Magneton's death can OHKO the aforementioned walls in sand&mdash;and Celebi&mdash;out of it.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Magneton's EV spread is designed so that it is able to outspeed Jolly Dugtrio at +1; maximum Speed investment comes two points short of outspeeding Timid Jolteon and Jolly Aerodactyl, and as such investing 204 Speed EVs is the most efficient spread. EndSalac Magneton is designed to be partnered with Dugtrio; the three moles are an essential teammate for this set, being a pivotal part of the strategy, as explained in the Set Comments. For the Screech + Dugtrio strategy to work at its best, Tyranitar's Sand Stream is very helpful in order to turn Dugtrio's close-to-OHKOs to OHKOs, such as those on -2 Blissey and Snorlax. Other teammates for EndSalac Magneton are those who can capitalize on the lack of walls, such as Skarmory and Celebi, which are removed by the pair. Standard Calm Mind Celebi, Dragon Dance Gyarados, and RestTalk CurseLax are examples of those who profit from the havoc wreaked and defensive holes punched by MagTrio. Magneton can also forgo Screech and use Metal Sound or a status move instead if Dugtrio is not being used, but despite being able to sweep sometimes late-game, the primary aim of this set is to work alongside Dugtrio and give it an easier time.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>There are two moves that should be universally resident on Magneton sets&mdash;Thunderbolt and a Hidden Power of some ilk. Most of the viable options for the remaining two moveslots are listed in the above sets, but there are a few viable moves which could potentially be used. Protect has potential to be used above Substitute in conjunction with Toxic on Magneton's offensive set, but many things which Magneton connects with Toxic on the switch&mdash;Swampert and Claydol&mdash;are slower than an invested Magneton, and as such Substitute generally works better to stall for poison damage or force a Rest, due to the fact that Substitute can be used repeatedly without risk. However, Toxic in conjunction with Protect can potentially be effective for getting "chip damage" on a Flygon switch-in. Magneton can potentially use two status moves&mdash;Thunder Wave and Toxic&mdash;on the same set. Despite the supposed "increased utility" of such a set, in fact a double status set is rather pointless due to the fact that Magneton, in a normal game scenario, will generally only be able to use a status move once (or not at all) due to its frailty and as such poor switch-in capability on offensive moves. Magneton can also set up your screen of choice to help provide support for a sweeper after it bites the dust, although dual screens setup offense is a poorer strategy in ADV than later gens due to the fact that the immediate power of the offensive powerhouses of ADV is comparatively lower, as well as the ubiquity of bulky phazers. Magneton certainly isn't going to work as a bulky screening pivot. Screech can be used on non-Endure sets, but it is nowhere near as effective as on Endure sets.</p>

    [Checks & Counters]

    <p>Like many other commonly seen Pokemon, Magneton carries the onus of being trapped and killed by Dugtrio. The moley cluster can either get in on Magneton on a predicted Thunderbolt, a smart double switch, or when avenging the death of its Steel-type teammate, prevent it from escape with its excellent ability Arena Trap, and bump it off with Earthquake. However, when switching into the magnetic trio, Dugtrio must take care to avoid coming in on Hidden Power or Substitute, especially if it has been revealed previously to the Magneton user. Magneton can also force Dugtrio back out of the fray with Endure and a Salac Berry. Magneton is stopped cold by special walls such as Blissey and Snorlax (especially Earthquake versions), although the latter will eventually be forced to Rest by repeated Thunderbolts, and may have a hard time, especially in sand. Calm Mind Celebi merrily sets up on Magneton, but may struggle against Metal Sound variants with Hidden Power Fire or Ice.</p>

    <p>Other Ground-types also work well to counter Magneton due to its 4x weakness to their STAB Earthquakes, although they must be wary of super effective Hidden Powers. Flygon is probably the best to switch straight into Magneton, as Hidden Power Ice is the least seen listed Hidden Power on Magneton, and Flygon outspeeds Magneton and as such cannot be SubToxic stalled. Claydol makes an excellent Magneton counter due to its lack of 4x weaknesses to certain Hidden Powers and its high Special Defense stat. However, a Claydol without Rest may struggle against Magneton if the Magneton uses Toxic on the switch. Swampert, especially RestTalk variants, work well enough against Magneton as long as the possibility of Hidden Power Grass is respected. Ironically enough, Steelix works very well against Magneton with its immunity to both Toxic and Thunderbolt, and the fact that Magneton hits it only neutrally with Hidden Power Grass or Ice. Fire Punch or Focus Punching Gengar can lure Magneton in and hurt it badly. A good sector of the metagame can come into Magneton after it has trapped and killed a Steel-type and revenge kill it. In reality, it's not so much a case of countering Magneton, but a case of simply attacking when it is predicted to switch in and beating it down continually.</p>
  2. meteor64

    meteor64

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    You should separate EndSalac+Screech from the main set since it attempts to accomplish an entirely different thing and requires specific support and completely different EVs, more than worthy of its own analysis.
  3. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    So I understand the very specific aim of EndureSalac, and RestTalk walls some pretty important dudes, but what of the "standard" offensive set? Moves like Substitute and Thunder Wave seem to serve no purpose other than "welp, gotta use something for filler." If that's actually the case, is it worth bogging down the last two slots of the main set with all those slashes instead of just mentioning them in OO or something?
  4. meteor64

    meteor64

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    I think the 3rd slot should be Substitute 100%, but the last slot really could be any of those, although I'd give priority to Toxic and MS.

    Edit- Also, for Other Options, Rain Dance/Sunny Day can support EndRev/Flail pokes, as Magnetons last moveslot is arguably more "free" than other pokes, but thats pretty much the extent of its viability.
  5. LizardMan

    LizardMan A sword isn't power. Knowledge is power.
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    Substitute and a status move have a lot more utility than you would think. Rest/Talk is weak, failing to OHKO SpDef Skarmory a lot more than the Modest max SpA would.

    There was many games where I would double switch my Magnezone into a predicted Crocune switch in, Subbed, then Toxic'd their Claydol/Flygon etc. Or getting a Sub on a Zapdos while it is sleeping or is just afraid Thunderbolt.

    Thunder Wave prevents DD Tyranitar from setting up on you and getting the paralysis on Snorlax is cool. Nothing likes paralysis.

    With Dugtrio being so common, Rest/Talk's claim of "longevity" isn't so true after all. It certainly helps, but some things will just never change.

    As for the other options section, and I used Reflect on Magneton over Sub before and it was "okay." A mention wouldn't hurt.
  6. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    ResTalk should be the first set. The listed EV spread isn't too good though. After Magneton has trapped Skarmory/Forretress, its just job is mostly done. With the first set, all Magneton is going to do is Toxic or Thunder Wave something before getting killed off. There are some instances where you can cripple a ttar but that's almost always after your opponent makes a mistake and goes for DD instead of EQ. However, this usually not the case against most opponents, at least in my experience. The offensive set usually just lands a Toxic/Twave on something before you sac it to an Explosion or something of that nature. With ResTalk, Magneton can survive throughout the match and counter Gengar's without Fire Punch and check Zapdos. Dugtrio beats all Magneton sets so I don't see why that's a counter argument. Sometimes Magneton is just going to die to a Dugtrio if your opponent has one. The offensive set doesn't prevent that from happening, nor does it do something significant in most games, other than giving one pokemon status.
  7. meteor64

    meteor64

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    I fail to see how this is a bad thing. You take out a key wall and then cripple another poke. Toxicing a Raikou, Swampert or Claydol or T waving a TTar can be gamebreaking (the Raikou situation you know first hand).

    Offensive Mag outspeeds Adamant 252Spd Tar, and also pretty much every Metagross. You'll almost always get an opportunity to do something. Just because it doesn't directly kill something doesn't stop it from being crucial to success. If anything, its not the set itself that makes Offensive Mag more viable, but the spread- the Speed just makes you that much more threatening.

    Snorlax does this (assuming youre running SBall), checks Fire Punch Gar, and is often paired with Mag. I'm not saying this as an argument to make RestTalk Mag redundant, but it is a relevant reason as to why RestTalk Mag isn't as useful as the offensive variant.

    Umm, EndSalac?
    If you have a Sub up when you kill something that can deter Dug from revenging, just like any poke. Mag isn't a special case where Dugtrio is concerned, its just as revengeable as Heracross or Celebi or Tyranitar or whatever. The fact is that ResTalk just doesn't fit teams as well as the Offensive variant, and the Speed and Sp. Atk difference are quite significant.

    Edit for Triangles- The EndSalac set isn't amazingly flexible in the options it has, HP Fire isn't really an option at all since the idea of EndSalac is to beat/scare off Dugtrio. For that reason Modest isn't an option either. Not sure about Metal Sound, I guess it could do something in tandem with Houndoom?
  8. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    I still don't see why sometimes crippling something is better than walling two popular threats in the metagame with ease. The fact that snorlax is on many teams with snorlax isn't too relevant since Magneton checks Gengar much better than Lax(unless gengar has fire punch). Snorlax hates Taunt WoW variants, and hates WoW in general. It's also very difficult for Snorlax to continue to check more offensive variants Zapdos throughout the match if one layer of Spikes is up. Magneton does this job a tiny bit better
  9. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    but magneton's job is to remove skarmory and forretress. having more speed and max/near-max special attack lets you do that while limiting them to 1 layer of spikes at most. stalk magneton is often slower than skarmory and fails to ohko it too often for some people's tastes (and i think hp fire fails to ohko forretress sometimes but i am not using a damage calc since i am in my school's comp lab atm). its main objective is killing those two. restalk gives it a secondary role so that it's useful after it kills them and in games that they aren't used, but that's not magneton's selling point and its immense susceptibility to dugtrio makes it sort of lackluster at those things anyway. in essence, stalk magneton has "more uses" but it's not as good at fulfilling its most important role.
  10. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    You can still OHKO Skarmory/Forretress, but not with the given spread. I'm suggesting a totally different spread. I agree that Magneton's main purpose is to defeat Skarmory/Forretress, and the given spread doesn't always do that.

    Magneton @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 16 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    that is the spread I've always used on ResTalk Magneton and it still beats what it needs to beat while checking what it needs to check

    edit: if you're using endure + salac then hp fire is not an option. You need to be able to beat Dugtrio and that's the main reason to use Endure Salac Magneton. Slashes should be HP Grass / HP Ice
  11. LizardMan

    LizardMan A sword isn't power. Knowledge is power.
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    The first set is used much more because it has more utility. The second set is definitly more niche.

    You can say Rest/Talk Magneton can check certain things. Well, it gets completely dick fucked on anything it can't lay status on.

    Using Substitute with Magneton on Cloyster or preventing Celebi switch in's from Leech Seeding you are good too. Not all Celebi have HP Fire.

    Substitute can occassionally prevent Dugtrio from trapping you, especially if they don't have a Forry or a Skarmory and sub on something which you scare out.
  12. adv

    adv

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    Right - I've sorted out the RestTalk description and changed to Sir's spread, putting my own in the AC. I will wirte up the other two sets after I have ploughed through a mountain of homework. HP Fire on the EndSalac set was just copypasta - even I'm not that retarded. Metal Sound could be OK though, as I will explain later.
  13. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    I wouldn't say that the first set is more popular and if it is the difference in usage isn't large. set order should be offensive, restalk, endure salac. endure salac is a much more niche set.
  14. LizardMan

    LizardMan A sword isn't power. Knowledge is power.
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    I have been playing ADV OU competitively pretty consistently for a year and a half, and I haven't seen one Rest/Talk Magneton. Either I am unlucky, or it just isn't as common.

    I agree with that set order. Endure Salac is good for Dugtrio, but Rest/Talk is not a bad set by any means and is the more consistent option.
  15. meteor64

    meteor64

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    Offensive is by far more common, idk where you've been playing. Even though the ResTalk set is by itself the more common set according to last months (skewed) stats, the collective usage of offensive Magneton far outdoes that of ResTalk (like, over double). IMO the sets should be Standard offensive > ResTalk > EndSalac.
  16. adv

    adv

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    After obscene amounts of procrastinating, I've written this up and it is ready for QCings.
  17. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    overview:
    I'm not sure this is needed or necessarily true in all cases. you can keep the sentence but say that ResTalk Mag is the exception to the rule.

    Set comments:
    HP ice is not just good for Flygon. It's good for Celebi and checking for Dugtrio if you brought in Magneton on anything other than a Steel-type.

    set comments #2
    Magneton isn't very good vs offensive zapdos so remove that mention.

    ac #2
    I'd remove the whole ev spread thing. If Magneton isn't able to beat what it's designed to beat then it shouldn't be used. Offensive teams have much better options for checking special attackers than something that just dies to duggy and fails its specialize job.

    This is good overall
    i wont approve yet because i want to hear what others have to say
  18. adv

    adv

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    I've adjusted my analysis in accordance with Sir's criticisms.
    However I've kept the alternative RestTalk Zapdos EV spread mentioned in the AC, but I've accentuated the cons of using such a spread.
  19. Crystal_

    Crystal_ I ruined RBY!
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    Uhm, I'd say Hp fire vs grass/ice is basically how much you need "spin" or if you mainly want mag to open up some of your sweepers by taking out skarm, in this case, hp fire is replaceable. Because really, how's Forr stopping Curselax from setting up in it's face?

    Well, maybe forr's problematic for stuff like ttar/metagross/aero but I just found the cb tauros/dodrio example a bit weird. And Forr isn't really going to rest and wall any of these five forever like skarm would anyway.

    This comes from an adv noob...
  20. Danilo

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    Agreeing with Crystal_ for the most part. HP Fire isn't necessarily the superior option and the OP should be updated to reflect that. HP Grass and HP ice are great options depending on the sweeper you're using. Maybe the slashes should go HP Grass / Fire / Ice? What are other opinions on this?
  21. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    HP Fire should be played on Modest Magneton as Timid will never OHKO 252/252+ Forretress (most common spread these days) in my opinion.
  22. Tamahome

    Tamahome hey moon, please forget to fall down
    is a Tutor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Hall Matronis a Past SPL Winneris a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    In my opinion, Endure+Salac should be in OO. I don't think it deserves a set on his own because the opponent's Dugtrio will just switch after letting Magneton with 1%. Assuming there's one layer of Spikes down already, it'll grant that you won't put Magneton back to play. Plus, Screech can be used not only with the Endure set, the sets based off Substitute can use that pretty well so yeah, at least imo, there's no place for that specific set in the analysis.

    Lastly, I really think HP Ice a good option in the Restalk set, maybe even better than HP Fire, and that it deserves at least to be slashed there.
  23. adv

    adv

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    Sorted out the minor changes and the slash order, but I don't think I'll banish EndSalac to OO as of yet, as I'd just like to gain a general opinion on the matter before making such a big change.
  24. meteor64

    meteor64

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    Forry can boom and follow up with something to force +1 lax out such as a CBer or anything with Brick Break (or if it was prior weakened follow with Duggy), but other than that I agree with this post.
  25. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arena Tycoonis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Champion
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    I agree subsalac and screech should be in OO.
    The rest of the analysis is fine

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