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Malprediction

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Thunderbolta, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    45

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Many pokemon have a "standard" set, and then some alternative sets which are just as valid, though less used. I decided to build my team around some of these lesser-used sets. My inspiration was when I noticed Donphan learnt Rock Polish. After a boost it does hit 400 speed - enough to outspeed most unboosted threats.

    All sets are importable. :)

    [​IMG]
    Donphan @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Polish
    - Stone Edge
    - Rapid Spin

    Replaced with Tyranitar for the same role.
    Tyranitar @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch


    My inspiration was Donphan, as I say. His set is fairly uncomplicated. Speed and Attack EVs are obviously to boost sweeping potential, and QuakeEdge attacks form the basis of my physical offense. As the only physical attacker on the team, there IS a lot of pressure on him to counter Chansey and Blissey, which makes is ground typing a boon for avoiding thunder waves which all Chanseys seem to be running these days.

    Tyranitar fulfills the same role, just in a bulkier way with an attack boost. 1 boost can be grabbed if any speedsters have been eliminated, or 2 if time allows. Otherwise, it fulfills the same role as Donphan.

    [​IMG]
    Vaporeon @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fire]


    Vaporeon. The wall with 110 base SpA. He is my bulky attacker and hardest hitter. Surf is the primary STAB, with Ice Beam, Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fire providing coverage. HP Fire counters the Ferrothorns who switch in on toxic, or stay in wondering why I would switch Vaporeon in against it. Surf hits hard, particularly against rain teams. Ice beam OHKOs Dragonite through multiscale, and Shadow Ball just rounds the set off. I use Vaporeon for both offense and to heal itself off of water type attacks.

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power
    - Substitute


    Kyurem. This pokemon is so rare outside of hail I decided that any set really would fit into my team, and so I went for Defensive SubRoost. As my pressure staller and dedicated wall, this thing is a beast. It hits decently due to it's high base attacking stats, but it is horrifically lackluster due to the lack of investment. Ice Beam and Earthpower provide decent coverage, although that isn't the focus of this set. I considered toxic, but it just didn't work for me. The 0 attack IVs and negative attack nature result in Kyurem taking less damage should he get confused - which is unlikely, as he spends most of his time behind a sub, roosting or attacking. I've noticed I use Earth Power more than Ice Beam, as Kyurem dislikes being against many of the pokemon that Ice Beam hits, so I considered changing to Dragon Pulse for greater neutral coverage.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Dark Pulse

    Replaced with Mew due to Mew being hard to predict and having mixed attack capability.
    Mew @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Aura Sphere
    - Psyshock
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Stealth Rock


    Scarftran. Why do I never see this being used? This here is seemingly one-of-a-kind, because I do not believe I have ever fought one and it baffles me why. Flamethrower provides the staple STAB, with Earth Power, Hidden Power [ICE] and Dark Pulse giving it near-perfect coverage. With a 379(.5) speed after scarf, it provides a surprise revenge killer against pokemon that thought they would out-speed, or would resist the normal Fire/Ground coverage that Heatran so often sticks to. Heatran has all too often failed to impress though, and seems to miss several OHKOs that the less reliable Fire Blast may provide. It still does it's job, and does it well though. Ground type attacks are often brought to a halt, though bulky water types will still wreck Heatran as will bulky Fighting types.

    Whilst I could easily have changed Heatran over to a specially defensive set (as was suggested) to provide Stealth Rocks, I see a lot more SpD Heatrans than I do other sets, and I didn't feel like another defensive pokemon was the way to go. Mew works as a similar threat to Heatran, just with max speed as opposed to a scarf. It also carries Will-o-Wisp in order to give it more general utility.

    [​IMG]
    Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Taunt
    - Heat Wave
    - Air Slash


    Tornadus-T's Regenerator ability is really nice, and with access to a quick taunt, substitute, and moderate defenses, Torn-T provides the stall-breaker of the team. I'm not entirely sure what to say, to be honest. He's a bulky attacker, with good offense and decent speed. Access to taunt allows it to shut down Chansey and Blissey, allowing Donphan to come in on the Seismic Toss, Rock Polish and then sweep. Other walls such as Gliscor can also receive the same treatment, although from my other sweeper. That's basically it's role, as a taunt/sub user - to shut down stall teams.

    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Leftovers
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 64 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 188 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Rock Polish
    - Bug Buzz
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt


    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 72 SAtk / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Flamethrower


    Genesect has 2 sets that are generally seen. Both run the same attacks and fill very similar roles - Expert Belt and Choice Scarf. Whilst the E-belt's set is to bluff the other, I use neither. Genesect's rock polish set allows for a Modest nature, and fewer speed EVs, resulting in a bulkier, harder hitting, faster(?) pokemon. The loss of Flamethrower is a shame, but it doesn't really need it. Being the special sweeper of the team, it covers Donphan reasonably well, hitting everything except Ferrothorn and pals. Functioning exactly the same as Donphan, it comes in on something that is either no threat (such as tox stallers) or has been shut down by Tornadus and Rock Polishes, then proceeds to sweep. This spot has been thrown around a lot, previous occupants being Landorus-T, Metagross, Jirachi, and Scizor, but Genesect has done the best so far. Whether or not it stays, I dunno.

    Genesect now runs a new set. His trollish speed is now fixed by a more traditional scarf, but he takes on a physical role over a special one. The choice between Flamethrower covers Ferrothorn and Forretress, but isn't enough to OHKO uninvested. Other Genesect will outspeed, so it doesn't cover those, but Scizor is potentially OHKO'd with the SAtk EVs, and Forretress sometimes is also OHKO'd.​
  2. zpattack12

    zpattack12

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    On Scarftran I would think that Overheat to give that bigger bang would be better than Dark Pulse. I'm not even 100% sure what Dark Pulse hits better than your other moves.
  3. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
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    Hi,

    You're teams idea is surely interesting. Although Donphan learns RP, its offensive stats arent exactly the best. I'd suggest LO+RP Terrakion over current Donphan. Aside from that, Donphan can also go from full offensive to SR attacker. EQ, SR, IceShard & RapidSpin/Roar w/ 200 Hp/ 56 Defense/ 252 Attack w/ Adamant nature should serve good for your team. Also, try switching Vaporeon to a Bold Roar phazer set w/ Scald, HealBell/Protect, Roar & Wish. Maybe, 252 Def/ 200 Hp/ 56 Sp.Def.
  4. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    You know that Donphan has 120 base Attack right? While not "THE BEST" as you said, that's only 9 base points off of your recommended Terrakion. However, that Donphan is Adamant, and common Terrakions are usually Jolly, meaning Donphan's Attack is actually HIGHER than Terrakion's (D's 372 vs T's 357). So that statement makes no sense...

    I do think that Stealth Rock is needed somewhere, as much as I hate to say it being a hipster. With Volcarona and Dragonite around, both of which can eat your team alive (especially with Heatran using Flamethrower, not being Specially Defensive, and Scarved).
  5. zpattack12

    zpattack12

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    The Biggest advantage Terrakion has are superior STAB's and 108 base speed compared to I believe 50 base speed.
  6. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    If you insist on using Specs Vap, I'd recommend Toxic over Shadow Ball. Shadow Ball is really only good for Jellicent, against other Bulky Waters it doesn't do enough damage (it's barely stronger than a resisted Surf). Toxic lets you put bulky water switch-ins in a pretty nasty predicament, and although you miss out on instant damage against Jellicent, it also hates Toxic. Toxic makes it easier to bluff a defensive Vap set, too.
  7. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    why not consider specs toed over vaporeon? it gives tornadus-t hurricane. also specs politoed while it may look mediocore, has drizzle to give an additional 50% boost along with stab. it also cuts out genesect's fire weakness to x.5
  8. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

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    Dark Pulse hits Gengar, Alakazam, Mew, Jellicent-on-the-switch and a couple others harder. Overheat is a nice idea, which I'll give a try later.
    120 attack stat is great. It's not Haxorus, or Kyurem-B, but a STAB, Life Orb, EQ off of ~380 attack is nothing to laugh at. Stealth Rock attacker is pretty much the standard set though with Donphan, which is what I was trying to avoid. I could try Stealth Rock over Rapid Spin, or even Seed Bomb over Rapid Spin, as I never Rapid Spin anyway. By the time I get it in, it's normally a good chance to Rock Polish and wreck stuff.
    Rock Polish Terrakion is also a lot more frail, making getting a Rock Polish off more difficult (especially meanas I can often lean on Sturdy with Donphan) and then surviving a hit should he miss the KO also more difficult. Terrakion is also fast enough that he shouldn't really need the boost, so Sword's Dance would be more efficient.
    Toxic on Specs... that is just wrong on SO many levels. I can -kind of- understand a scarf spore set with Breloom, but Spec'd Toxic? Yuck.
    It also reduces the power of Torn-T's coverage move, Vaporeon's HP Fire (which isn't hitting all that hard anyway - just enough to KO most Ferrothorns, and all Forretresses) and of course, Heatran's STAB.
  9. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
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    When writing this suggestion, I really didn't have much time to type much. If you'd check my other rates/suggestions, they're more detailed and accurrate. Sorry.

    My only concern w/ Donphan was that its less-than-stellar Speed is highly overshadowed by other Pokemon. Hince, my suggestion toward RP Terrakion.
  10. Episode36

    Episode36

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    Apr 13, 2012
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    Your team will have a lot of problems with any special wall, from Gastrodon to Chansey/Blissey. You have no grass move, no fighting move, and 5 Pokemon who carry solely special attacks. Donphan is not really a great physical attacker, and it will die to a simple scald or what have you. I suggest either replacing one of your Pokemon with a physical attacker, preferably with a fighting move, or as a fighting type, or changing one of your sets, probably on Genesect, to a Banded variant with U-turn, Iron Head, Flame Charge, and Zen Headbutt or whatever.
  11. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

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    Choice Banded Genesect seems okay, and is uncommon enough that people are unlikely to predict it, which is the entire point of this team. Genesect gets no fighting/grass moves though worth mentioning.
  12. Episode36

    Episode36

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    Even without a fighting or grass move, he's a physical attacker with large base attack, even more so with an attack boost that is easier to get than a SpA boost. Coupled with stab, Iron Head or U-Turn coming off that attack, possible +1, along with choice band, and even things that resist it will get damaged heavily, and it would take off 75% or so (just a guess) from things like Gastro/Blissey, allowing you to finish it off after u-turning to another Pokemon.
  13. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

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    Using a Mixsect 252 Atk Naughty Choice Band Genesect:
    Blissey: Iron Head: 552-651 (77.31 - 91.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Gastrodon: U-turn: 244-288 (57.27 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Both are 252HP/252Def Bold in order to assume worst case scenario. Blissey is sometimes OHKO'd and Gastrodon remains at 2HKO for specially defensive variants.
  14. IurtaeMont

    IurtaeMont

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    I got a game against this team earlier today.

    It works, but I remember you had a problem with two things:

    Your Tornadus and Kyurem were outsped by my Kyurem

    You didn't have an easy time with my Slowbro.

    You still won though. :P
  15. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

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    Yes. The fat Bird and Dragon's lack of speed was annoying...

    Being unable to counter Slowbro is really strange. Again, it's the lack of grass type move that kind of instigates that.

    One problem I'm noticing more and more often is Donphan's Life Orb killing it after it bounces off of Sturdy, or really after taking any special attack. Perhaps swapping it out might make a good call, but the suggested Terrakion would have the same issue. Any other suggestions for an alternative 'mon that can run a similar set, even minus rapid spin?
  16. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
    Mentor

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    Here's just a small suggestion that i haven't actually tried out but genesect actually does get some grass type moves. Giga drain comes to mind, especially on your set since it could increase its longevity and potentially make it easier to get boosts. plus if you replace it with bug buzz i don't think you lose any coverage, at least off the top of my head nothing that is dark psychic or grass in ou resist a boltbeam combo with grass coverage.
  17. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

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    Hey Thunderbolta i got your request and a very interasting team you have here, i know i say that to alot of teams but this one is very creative so props on that!

    The main flaw in this team is no Stealth Rock. Any succesful team absolutely needs Stealth Rock. This is because it breaks Dragonites Multiscale halves Volcaronas health and weakens Thunderous-T and Tornadus-T. Your team is also a bit redundant in the way that you have two Rock Polish sweepers. Choice Scarf Heatran is cool but sadly i don't think it is to effective with all those Breloom running around. Dragon Dance Dragonite with Earthqauke/Fire Punch/Outrage looks extremely menacing to your team because it can keep it's Multiscale intact quite easy due to you not having Stealth Rock and can outspeed and sweep your whole team at +1 and proceed to sweep late game. Choice Scarf Salamence also works similarily in the way that it outspeeds your whole team and commonly carries Earthqauke and a Fire-type move to get past your two Steel-type.

    To help give your team a better check to Salamence and Dragonite and a pokemon with the move Stealth Rock i suggest Specially Defensive Heatran>Choice Scarf Heatran with an Air Balloon, Hidden Power [Ice] and Stealth Rock Heatran can break Dragonites Multiscale and can beat them one on one with Hidden Power [Ice]. If Air Balloon is still intact Ground-type moves arn't a problem for Heatran letting it beat Salamence and Dragonite. Choice Scarf Heatran isn't a good revenge killer anyway to be honest. It is still quite slow and has a weakness to priority Mach Punch and Aqua Jet. Heatran also helps somewhat against sun teams having a boosted Lava Plume and also has Earthpower to beat opposing Heatran and Ninetales as well.

    With this change implemented your team would appreciate a new revenge killer in Heatrans place. Genesects role is quite redundant as a Rock Polish sweepers next to Donphan so a Choice Scarf Genesect>Rock Polish Genesect would fit nicely. Choice Scarf Genesect also gives you a secondary check to Dragon-types and a much more speedy and reliable revenge killer then Heatran. Genesect can also U-turn on your opponent keeping momentum in your favour. This Genesect set works great with Heatran as you can often lure in a Fire-type then U-turn into Heatran or even Vaporoeon.

    Good luck with the team i hope i helped!

    Sets
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Air Balloon | Flash Fire
    Calm | 252 Hp / 4 SpA / 252 Sp Def
    Stealth Rock | Lava Plume | Earthpower | Hidden Power [Ice]
    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Scarf | Download
    Naive | 252 SpA / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
    U-turn | Ice Beam | Thunderbolt | Flamethrower

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide


    Heatran
    .Specially Defensive Set--->Choice Scarf Set

    Genesect
    .Choice Scarf Set--->Rock Polish Set



    ~Superpowerdude
  18. bkt0731

    bkt0731

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    well, I'll focus on how I play.

    not using stealth rock could be understood. u have a team that has decent bulk to retaliate after a hit.

    but a stall set focused on crippling opponents, such as twave blissy or porygon2, u won't be able to do a thing. also, spamming a team with bunch of special attackers simply can't work due to pink blobs.

    especially, when donphan isn't that bulky because of its mediocre sp.def. so, i'd rather say u replace a sp.a attacker.

    tornados-t is ok. but consider zapdos. it gets volt switch.

    I'd give chance to psyshock or trick to get rid of pink blobs. latias or latios will do the job.

    Maybe espeon can work. trick/calm mind/psyshock/hp-fighting would do wonders for your team. and it bounces srock.
  19. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

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    Okay. I made some changes which seem to be working pretty well, based on the comments.

    1) Genesect now runs a physical scarf set, with U-Turn, Flamethrower, Zen Headbutt and Iron Head. It carries a different EV Spread to match. This is to replace Heatran as a scarfer.
    2) Mew replaces Heatran, providing Stealth Rock support, and special attacks using Psyshock as the primary STAB.
    3) Donphan is now a Tyranitar, with Dragon Dance over Rock Polish, and Crunch over Rapid Spin. It's also now Jolly, to achieve a similar speed after 1 boost, and a higher attack. It's not as fast, and will be outsped by particularly fast opponents such as Jolteon and Tornadus, but the additional firepower and bulk is worthwhile, I think.


    Full sets will be on the OP...
  20. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Some quick observations:

    • I'm kinda confused: your last post talked about a Flame Charge Genesect, then you list in the OP a Choice Scarf Genesect; which one are you using in the end? In the first case, having no scarfed revenge killer WILL hurt, since you don't have any kind of priority. In the second case, I suggest tweaking a bit your Speed EVs, since 184 EVs with a neutral nature means you get outsped by +1 Jolly Dragonite that can retaliate with Fire Punch, and max speed neutral natured Haxorus, Choice Scarf Hydreigon and some other, less notable threats (+2 Timid max speed Gorebyss, for example). I would seriously consider a more standard spread with 252 EVs in speed and a positive nature, splitting the remaining EVS between Atk and SpA as you need.
    • Since you have two weaknesses to SR and no resistance, it would be a good idea to replace Will-O-Wisp with Taunt on Mew. That would make harder for the opponent to get their hazards up, while enabling you to prevent setup from slower pokemons as an added boon. Also, an idea to consider is to switch to Fire / Electric coverage, since you achieve many OHKOs on nasty things like Scizor, non-scarf Genesect, Ferrothorn, and the likes. Anyway, Psychic / Fighting coverage has its merits too, so it's up to you to see what suits better your need.

    Good luck for your team!
  21. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

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    It's me getting confused. It's meant to be flamethrower, not flame charge.

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