Well using Avalanche on a base 80 mon isn't that great really, and with a Jolly nature Mamoswine beats Heatran, Lucario, most Gyarados and Dragonite, Adamant Warubiaru and Doryuuzu. Honestly I feel base 80 is decent, not slow. But okok you use Thick Fat and everybody else uses Icicle Drop that's fine lol.
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Mamoswine
- Thread starter Not Scicky
- Start date
In which case I'll gladly use Earthquake on them as they resist Ice anyway
Taking a LO Zapdos's Heat wave, and 2HKOing it with Ice Shard is great reason to use Thick Fat. If it has HP Ice, that is. No one has yet pointed out the significance of +20 on an Ice move for Mamo. Sure it's a power increase, but in what situation is it not simply overkill?
Adamant Mamoswine is honestly better than Jolly. You only miss out on outspeeding +Speed Heatran (who is usually Scarfed anyway) and Adamant Lucario (who uses Bullet Punch more and more these days).
Adamant Life Orb Ice Shard does 102% minimum to Breloom, a clean OHKO.
Adamant Nevermeltice/Expert Belt Ice Shard does 94%-110% a clean OHKO with Stealth Rock. (100.2%-116.2%)
Jolly Mamo can't even guarantee a KO on Breloom with a Choice Band on (90%-106%, 96.2%-112.2% with SR).
If guaranteeing an OHKO on Breloom isn't a reason to run Adamant over Jolly, I don't know what is.
Adamant Mamoswine is honestly better than Jolly. You only miss out on outspeeding +Speed Heatran (who is usually Scarfed anyway) and Adamant Lucario (who uses Bullet Punch more and more these days).
Adamant Life Orb Ice Shard does 102% minimum to Breloom, a clean OHKO.
Adamant Nevermeltice/Expert Belt Ice Shard does 94%-110% a clean OHKO with Stealth Rock. (100.2%-116.2%)
Jolly Mamo can't even guarantee a KO on Breloom with a Choice Band on (90%-106%, 96.2%-112.2% with SR).
If guaranteeing an OHKO on Breloom isn't a reason to run Adamant over Jolly, I don't know what is.
Thick Fat is a good ability, no doubt, just that with Mamoswine I'm going to be more concerned about dealing out as much damage as I want instead of trying to wall Water-typed attackers and absorb Fire hits. But that's up to personal choice I guess. Just hope for Icicle Spear and Thick Fat to be compatible somehow.
Not going to argue with that anymore but, I'm starting to doubt the utility of Mamoswine at all. If anything, its perk was to revenge rampaging Dragons and stuff but with the new gen introducing 3 such Dragons with great power but no 4x weak.. it doesn't perform its job as well reallly.
Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 0/0 Ononokuso 80.5% - 94.9%
Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 252/0 Kurimugan 65.9% - 77.7%
Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 0/0 Sazando 72.6% - 85.5%
If I want a surefire revenge-killer, I would probably turn to Scarfed Flygon/Garchomp instead of Mamoswine.
Not going to argue with that anymore but, I'm starting to doubt the utility of Mamoswine at all. If anything, its perk was to revenge rampaging Dragons and stuff but with the new gen introducing 3 such Dragons with great power but no 4x weak.. it doesn't perform its job as well reallly.
Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 0/0 Ononokuso 80.5% - 94.9%
Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 252/0 Kurimugan 65.9% - 77.7%
Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 0/0 Sazando 72.6% - 85.5%
If I want a surefire revenge-killer, I would probably turn to Scarfed Flygon/Garchomp instead of Mamoswine.
If there's one thing Mamoswine can do well, it's take an Outrage and Hit back for an OHKO. Not sure if he can take one from Onnokusu though, and certainly not a boosted one.
You aren't the only one. I experimented with Icicle Spear Mamo once; it does meh in Gen 4, but with the power increase it will certainly be better this Gen, even if it only hits twice on a weak Substitute user.
Scarf Garchomp is already a better revenger than Mamo this Gen. Mamoswine will still be good for revenging the likes of Garchomp, Salamence and Flygon, but dealing with the new Dragons may be best left to other Dragons. While keeping it in his repertoire, I think Mamoswine should do some different things. Who knows, maybe we'll see Ice Shard forgone in favor of Choice Scarf Icicle Drop Mamoswine.
Lol how on earth did you test Icicle Spear in Gen 4 OMG. Anyway an unboosted Outrage from Ononokuso is doing 100+% to Mamoswine and Salamence is KOing after SR as well. And I wouldn't use Scarf Mamoswine because it can't revenge DD Ononokuso, or even the 4th quartet.
Icicle Spear is an Egg move for Mamoswine in Gen 4. You have to chain breed to get it. Something like Shellder>Corsola>Seel>Swinub.
0 HP Mamoswine? 252 HP Mamoswine? Specificity plz. Max HP Mmaoswine isn't unheard of, and I use one actually. I survives a Salamence Outrage with HP to spare. DD Salamence dies hard to Ice shard btw, even after Intimidate.
Scarf Mamo outspeeds Garchomp and Flygon. The other two have DD.
Edit: MIN HP Mamoswine can survive an unboosted Outrage from Rayquaza with SR factored in. No way Onnokusu OHKOs Max or Min HP Mamo without a boost. Did you do the math?
Okay I should have been clearer. I calced vs 0 HP Mamoswine which should be the standard but uhhm up to you if you're going to use a Scarf Mamoswine with 252 HP and 252 Spe now. I'll concede that Flygon and Garchomp are left exposed if they don't have a Scarf themselves. But the point remains that if I were to use a Scarfer I would use one that wouldn't leave me exposed against DDers like Gyarados and Ononokuso and other speed uppers like Urugamosu, which would then require a secondary check (likely another Scarfer) on my team. But this is kinda out of point, I'm just saying that Mamoswine won't be the one-size-fit-all answer to Dragons anymore - arguably its main appeal last gen - because it isn't doing enough to the Gen V Dragons.
Sorry I misread Icicle Spear as Icicle Drop.
Sorry I misread Icicle Spear as Icicle Drop.
Adamant 252HP/252 Attack, no Scarf, of course. The Scarf idea was just a muse. A bulkier Mamoswine beats a speedier one in terms of usefulness.
Don't look at it as "Mamoswine can't revenge dragons anymore" He can still revenge all of the ones he could before, and seriously dent some of the new ones. And Dragon killing isn't his only strength; he's got a fierce priority move, great physical bulk (despite being an Ice-type) and a stab Earthquake. Until the new tiers settle in, I wouldn't judge Mamoswine just yet.
The only one who will really give him problems is DD Onnonokusu. But as I stated, it's unboosted Outrage fails to OHKO min HP Mamo, and does even less if it's Jolly.
Scarf Mamoswine
Mamoswine @ Choice Scarf
Adamant Nature
Thick Fat Ability (if usable, otherwise either ability)
EVs: 252 Atk, 24 SpDef, 232 Spe
~ Earthquake
~ Icicle Drop
~ Ice Shard
~ Stealth Rock
232 Speed EVs outspeeds Rash ScarfTran, +Speed Base 120s and Scarf T-Tar. I considered Stone Edge over Ice Shard, but you're still getting a 2HKO on Gyarados regardless, Icicle Drop is better against most Flying-types and Ice Shard helps with Dragons that got too many DDs, Scarf Flygon etc. Superpower isn't included because you only get a 2HKO (which EQ manages anyway) against Blissey and Bronzong / Skarmory laugh at you. Stealth Rock is usable with his high speed thanks to CS.
Calculations:
This Mamoswine does have some issues however, it does laughable damage against floating Steel-types and any bulky Water-types, and is easily set up on by Gyarados, Suicune etc. It sacrifices pure power for surprise value and the ability to take out faster sweepers. Mamoswine's base 130 Attack still does perfectly well against offensive teams, but is definitely not usable against defensive teams, unless he can hit SE. For that reason you definitely want an Electric- or Grass-type (Grass resists the Water / Grass moves that will be coming Mamoswine's way) to take out the Water-types he struggles against.
There's probably some magic gen V guy who shits all over this set that I didn't look for, but whatever.
Just throwing this out there, figured it sounds pretty decent, especially now he gets a better Ice-type attack.
Mamoswine @ Choice Scarf
Adamant Nature
Thick Fat Ability (if usable, otherwise either ability)
EVs: 252 Atk, 24 SpDef, 232 Spe
~ Earthquake
~ Icicle Drop
~ Ice Shard
~ Stealth Rock
232 Speed EVs outspeeds Rash ScarfTran, +Speed Base 120s and Scarf T-Tar. I considered Stone Edge over Ice Shard, but you're still getting a 2HKO on Gyarados regardless, Icicle Drop is better against most Flying-types and Ice Shard helps with Dragons that got too many DDs, Scarf Flygon etc. Superpower isn't included because you only get a 2HKO (which EQ manages anyway) against Blissey and Bronzong / Skarmory laugh at you. Stealth Rock is usable with his high speed thanks to CS.
Calculations:
EQ
Vs 0/0 Heatran = 211.8% - 250.2%
Vs 4/0 Tyranitar = 97.1% - 114.6%
Vs 4/0 Starmie = 78.5% - 93.1% (OHKO after SR + LO)
Vs 252/4 Starmie = 63% - 74.4% (Starmie has 67% chance of OHKO with Surf + SR)
Vs 252/0 Metagross = 79.1% - 92.9%
Icicle Drop
Vs 12/0 Breloom = 139.4% - 164.4%
Vs 252/220 Celebi = 55.4% - 65.8%
Vs 0/0 Shaymin = 89.7% - 106.2%
Vs 248/228 Zapdos = 65.8% - 77.3% (Possible OHKO with SR, guaranteed 2HKO otherwise, which Ice Fang couldn't do)
Vs Max/Max Impish Gliscor = 106.2% - 126.6% (Not that this is often used anyway, but it highlights what Icicle Drop does over Ice Fang)
Vs 252/0 Dragonite = 165.8% - 195.9% (Catch it on the first DD)
Vs 4/0 YacheChomp = 89.4% - 105.6% (74.4% OHKO with SR)
Vs 4/0 Latias = 111.6% - 131.6%
Ice Shard
Vs 4/0 Aerodactyl = 67.5% - 80.1%
Vs 0/0 Flygon = 115.6% - 136.9%
Vs 252/0 Dragonite = 78.8% - 93.3% (If he manages to get 2 DDs you can still KO with SR)
Vs 0/4 Salamence = 70.1% - 83.4% (Intimidate) (53.85% OHKO with SR)
Vs 4/0 Garchomp = 84.9% - 100.6% (41% OHKO with SR)
Vs 0/0 Heatran = 211.8% - 250.2%
Vs 4/0 Tyranitar = 97.1% - 114.6%
Vs 4/0 Starmie = 78.5% - 93.1% (OHKO after SR + LO)
Vs 252/4 Starmie = 63% - 74.4% (Starmie has 67% chance of OHKO with Surf + SR)
Vs 252/0 Metagross = 79.1% - 92.9%
Icicle Drop
Vs 12/0 Breloom = 139.4% - 164.4%
Vs 252/220 Celebi = 55.4% - 65.8%
Vs 0/0 Shaymin = 89.7% - 106.2%
Vs 248/228 Zapdos = 65.8% - 77.3% (Possible OHKO with SR, guaranteed 2HKO otherwise, which Ice Fang couldn't do)
Vs Max/Max Impish Gliscor = 106.2% - 126.6% (Not that this is often used anyway, but it highlights what Icicle Drop does over Ice Fang)
Vs 252/0 Dragonite = 165.8% - 195.9% (Catch it on the first DD)
Vs 4/0 YacheChomp = 89.4% - 105.6% (74.4% OHKO with SR)
Vs 4/0 Latias = 111.6% - 131.6%
Ice Shard
Vs 4/0 Aerodactyl = 67.5% - 80.1%
Vs 0/0 Flygon = 115.6% - 136.9%
Vs 252/0 Dragonite = 78.8% - 93.3% (If he manages to get 2 DDs you can still KO with SR)
Vs 0/4 Salamence = 70.1% - 83.4% (Intimidate) (53.85% OHKO with SR)
Vs 4/0 Garchomp = 84.9% - 100.6% (41% OHKO with SR)
This Mamoswine does have some issues however, it does laughable damage against floating Steel-types and any bulky Water-types, and is easily set up on by Gyarados, Suicune etc. It sacrifices pure power for surprise value and the ability to take out faster sweepers. Mamoswine's base 130 Attack still does perfectly well against offensive teams, but is definitely not usable against defensive teams, unless he can hit SE. For that reason you definitely want an Electric- or Grass-type (Grass resists the Water / Grass moves that will be coming Mamoswine's way) to take out the Water-types he struggles against.
There's probably some magic gen V guy who shits all over this set that I didn't look for, but whatever.
Just throwing this out there, figured it sounds pretty decent, especially now he gets a better Ice-type attack.
Mamoswine can't no longer counter Dragonite, since it has gotten a new toy this gen: aqua jet DX
Even +2 max Atk LO Aqua Jet fails to get a guaranteed OHKO on Mamoswine (85.3% - 100.8%) even with SR, so I'd say Scarf Mamoswine is a decent enough check.
3DS (Defensive Dancing Dragon Slayer)
Mamoswine@Passho Berry/Leftovers
Thick Fat
Impish/Relaxed
252HP/252Def/6 Attack
Ice Shard
Earthquake
Avalanche/Blizzard
Stone Edge/Protect
A defensive answer to Dragon Dancing Dragon(esque) Pokemon.
Surprise DD LO Onnonokusu! Mamoswine always survives Jolly LO +1 Outrage and OHKO's with Avalanche (+1 LO Outrage from an Adamant Onno will smash Mamo to pieces.) As it is physically the strongest Dragon, the rest are handled similarly.
Surprise DD LO Gyarados! Passho Berry allows Mamo to take a Boosted Waterfall and proceed to 2HKO with Stone Edge and Ice Shard (combined with LO Recoil or possible Hail). Tyranitar gets a similar deal from Stab Earthquake + Shard.
Protect is an option to possibly force an Outraging Dragon into Confusion. Dragon Pokemon like Kingdra are obviously more threatening, as a Rain boosted Hydro Pump will OHKO through Passho Berry, though a Rain boosted Surf or Waterfall will not.
Another note: Avalanche is not the most reliable move to deal with non-Outragers like Gyarados (who may just DD again instead of Waterfall).
If that dubious Hail rumor was true, this set would be top knotch.
Edit: Blizzard out-damages Avalanche against Onnonokusu, and is probably better overall.
Fun Facts: It survives Infernape's Close Combat and OHKO's with EQ.
It withstands CB Scizor's BP without a Babiri Berry.
Mamoswine@Passho Berry/Leftovers
Thick Fat
Impish/Relaxed
252HP/252Def/6 Attack
Ice Shard
Earthquake
Avalanche/Blizzard
Stone Edge/Protect
A defensive answer to Dragon Dancing Dragon(esque) Pokemon.
Surprise DD LO Onnonokusu! Mamoswine always survives Jolly LO +1 Outrage and OHKO's with Avalanche (+1 LO Outrage from an Adamant Onno will smash Mamo to pieces.) As it is physically the strongest Dragon, the rest are handled similarly.
Surprise DD LO Gyarados! Passho Berry allows Mamo to take a Boosted Waterfall and proceed to 2HKO with Stone Edge and Ice Shard (combined with LO Recoil or possible Hail). Tyranitar gets a similar deal from Stab Earthquake + Shard.
Protect is an option to possibly force an Outraging Dragon into Confusion. Dragon Pokemon like Kingdra are obviously more threatening, as a Rain boosted Hydro Pump will OHKO through Passho Berry, though a Rain boosted Surf or Waterfall will not.
Another note: Avalanche is not the most reliable move to deal with non-Outragers like Gyarados (who may just DD again instead of Waterfall).
If that dubious Hail rumor was true, this set would be top knotch.
Edit: Blizzard out-damages Avalanche against Onnonokusu, and is probably better overall.
Fun Facts: It survives Infernape's Close Combat and OHKO's with EQ.
It withstands CB Scizor's BP without a Babiri Berry.
Charlemagne, your calcs in your Adamant > Jolly Mamo argument are wrong. Adamant LO is only doing 84.8% - 100.8% to Breloom. So yeah EB/NMI is doing even less, and also Jolly CB outdamages everything but Adamant CB. Also Heatran is only scarfed 31.0% of the time according to stats, and if the trend continues that's only going to get lower(CS Heatran's dominance is long over). As for Lucario, 13.2% run Bullet Punch...which I'd hardly call popular.
Dragonite has zero reason to run Aqua Jet. 2x SE Aqua Jet has the same power as Extremespeed, except Extremespeed now has +2 priority instead of +1. Mamoswine always had a speed tie with Nite anyway, as as Nite was DD Boosting the point was moot.
Given all the speed creep on threats this Gen, Adamant CB Mamoswine probably is better than Jolly. There is no longer much of anything important at that 260-280 level that isn't boosting its speed anyway (hi Blaziken).
If I had to guess a Thick Fat CB Set, it'd be Ice Shard/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Double Hit. Subpunchers and Substitute in general aren't getting any less common this gen, and Mamoswine can probably break a large number of weaker Subs (like SubPunch Breloom) with Double Hit. Level Ground might also be used to get rid of faster switchins, although usually EQ would take care of them. The lack of Superpower is a distinct disadvantage, but Bronzong seems less and less relevant amid all the new threats.
Given all the speed creep on threats this Gen, Adamant CB Mamoswine probably is better than Jolly. There is no longer much of anything important at that 260-280 level that isn't boosting its speed anyway (hi Blaziken).
If I had to guess a Thick Fat CB Set, it'd be Ice Shard/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Double Hit. Subpunchers and Substitute in general aren't getting any less common this gen, and Mamoswine can probably break a large number of weaker Subs (like SubPunch Breloom) with Double Hit. Level Ground might also be used to get rid of faster switchins, although usually EQ would take care of them. The lack of Superpower is a distinct disadvantage, but Bronzong seems less and less relevant amid all the new threats.
Don't know how I messed that up. Probably because I calculated it by hand.
Edit: I forgot that Breloom resists Stealth Rock, and I usually include SR damage. That's where the extra 12.5% came from. He still has a great chance to OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock, but CB is kinda overkill on Adamant. I can see why Jolly is better for CB.
Do most non-Scarf Heatran's have non-Speed Boosting Natures?
I said that BP Lucario is on the rise, not that it's popular.
Edit: On my Defensive Revenge Killer, Onnonokusu has a small chance to OHKO if Mamo switches in to SR. With SR, its 86%-101%, a 13% chance for an OHKO.
It doesn't matter if its running thick fat or snow cloak, Mamo will definitely see more use with more dragons to counter. I think Gen 5 will start out so dragon heavy it won't even be funny.
Going back to the thick fat vs icicle drop debate, I'd prefer thick fat any day.
Icicle drop deals 30% more damage than ice fang (and less than avalanche, and I feel that the new metagame will be more speedy, which may mean avalanche is more useful).
Even disregarding avalanche, 30% is nice, but resistances and weakness are something that define different pokemon. Actually HALVING damage vs some attacks, is more appealing than some extra damage, for damage freaks.
Icicle drop deals 30% more damage than ice fang (and less than avalanche, and I feel that the new metagame will be more speedy, which may mean avalanche is more useful).
Even disregarding avalanche, 30% is nice, but resistances and weakness are something that define different pokemon. Actually HALVING damage vs some attacks, is more appealing than some extra damage, for damage freaks.
There is no Thick Fat vs. Icicle Drop debate, Dream World abilities can be bred to offspring.
Info is in the BW Research Thread.
Mamoswine is really good in this meta. Adamant CB Mamoswine outspeeds and can OHKO most forms of breloom (jolly max speed breloom is quicker, but most run adamant so in most cases you're quicker), OHKOs Jarooda, Gliscor, Ononokusu, Mence, the three genies, and Sazando with Ice Shard. Icicle Drop OHKOs Dragonite and other threats that weren't taken care of by Ice Shard. Ice shard can also 2HKO doryuzuu, which isn't perfect but when added up with SR, spikes, and LO damage can sometimes kill Doryuzuu. EQ can also help take down some new threats, like Shandera, Roobushin, Blaziken, and most steel types. Stone Edge can take down troublesome pokes like Gyrados. If you want more speed, I'd go with CS, but if you want a more powerful Ice Shard I'd go with CB.