Manaphy

[Prinz]

Slash Wacan Berry in the Tail Glow one, or at least mention it in OO. It's just a really good item to run on Manaphy, allowing it to beat Thundurus / Mega Manetric / other Electric-type mon if it's healthy and to support other things which dont like Electric-type mon (Pinsir, Talon etc.) at the same time.

 

[alexwolf]

Slash Wacan Berry in the Tail Glow one, or at least mention it in OO. It's just a really good item to run on Manaphy, allowing it to beat Thundurus / Mega Manetric / other Electric-type mon if it's healthy and to support other things which dont like Electric-type mon (Pinsir, Talon etc.) at the same time.

It's already mentioned in Set Details.

 

[Prinz]

Alright then. Hadnt seen it, sorry.

 

[Unowninator]

What about Dazzling Gleam & Shadow Ball? Are either of those worth using?

And out of curiosity, why was it uber inn gen 4? (Drizzle Politoed didn't exist back then)

 

[alexwolf]

• CroCune 2.0
• Rain nerf made it tolerable

Remove those two, they don't say much about how Manaphy fares in the metagame, they are just fluff or needless transition talk. Instead, mention how some common and great Pokemon such as Kyu-B, Mega Venusaur, Unaware Cleable, and Thundurus, give a hard time to Manaphy. Also, mention that it's quite easy to outspeed with offensive Pokemon due to not so great Speed.

On the first set, explain why one would want to use Life Orb by mentioning some crucial OHKOes that it grants. Eg, good chance to OHKO Kyu-B after SR with Ice Beam / Psychic, guaranteed with modest.

Powerful wallbreakers work really well with it, Special Mega Lucario, Mega Garchomp, and other mixed or strong attackers can break down special walls for it

Works extremely well with Sticky Web support due to its main counters being faster Pokemon

Those go to team options.

QC APPROVED 1/3

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I'm not even sure it's accurate to call it an upgraded version of CroCune, since Suicune is the superior CM mono-attacker in most scenarios. Manaphy is just somewhat better at breaking stall due to the fact that it 2HKOs nearly everything on those teams with +6 Rain-boosted Scald (including Chansey), which Suicune struggles doing, since those teams often have multiple Pokemon that can survive two of his +6 Scalds. If they do, he must resort to Pressure stalling, which doesn't work all of the time. Suicune is far better against offensive teams due to his superior bulk, and ability to switch into attacks that would normally 3HKO him and proceed to Rest without being entirely immobile for 2 turns. Pressure also stuns a variety of offensive threats, by lessening their ability to constantly spam the same move in hopes of a crit. I think it's important that you make these distinctions in the set details of Calm Mind.

That being said,

APPROVED 2/3

 

[6feetunder]

mentions of mega luke and gene have to go cuz banned

 

[Kavatika]

I'd like to suggest on the first set that Psychic get a slash on the third slot after Ice Beam for use with Life Orb. You get coverage on Bulky-Water types and Mega Venusaur at the same time, and with LO, you can 2HKO Multiscale Dragonite or OHKO after Rocks. There aren't many Dragon Types that you would be forced to attack with Ice Beam anyways, since the rest of them are hit neutrally by Psychic or Surf, and with LO you pack plenty of power at +3 to KO them. You do lose out on the Latis, but Manaphy isn't outspeeding them anyways, and they aren't that hard to kill nowadays.

 

[Halcyon.]

I'd like to suggest on the first set that Psychic get a slash on the third slot after Ice Beam for use with Life Orb. You get coverage on Bulky-Water types and Mega Venusaur at the same time, and with LO, you can 2HKO Multiscale Dragonite or OHKO after Rocks. There aren't many Dragon Types that you would be forced to attack with Ice Beam anyways, since the rest of them are hit neutrally by Psychic or Surf, and with LO you pack plenty of power at +3 to KO them. You do lose out on the Latis, but Manaphy isn't outspeeding them anyways, and they aren't that hard to kill nowadays.

I've found Psychic to be better when used over Energy Ball, since it realistically only hits Azumarill and Rotom-W. Rotom-W can't OHKO you, and you 2HKO. However, giving a free turn to Dragonite, Garchomp, and being totally walled by Lati@s doesn't sound very appealing to me. But I guess I can do some testing tonight and get back to you.

 

[Kavatika]

I've found Psychic to be better when used over Energy Ball, since it realistically only hits Azumarill and Rotom-W. Rotom-W can't OHKO you, and you 2HKO. However, giving a free turn to Dragonite, Garchomp, and being totally walled by Lati@s doesn't sound very appealing to me. But I guess I can do some testing tonight and get back to you.

Garchomp is OHKOed by Surf at +3 and again, with LO you can at worst 2HKO Dragonite with Psychic. The point was that you get coverage on more things and you don't completely lose out to dragons.

 

[Halcyon.]

Garchomp is OHKOed by Surf at +3 and again, with LO you can at worst 2HKO Dragonite with Psychic. The point was that you get coverage on more things and you don't completely lose out to dragons.

But you achieve the same thing with Ice Beam...honestly it's just a matter of would you rather lose to Lati@s or Azumarill. At best I think I could mention it in AC but I'm really not seeing the big deal here.

To a lesser extent, although I didn't particularly want to mention them because they are not top tier pokes, you lose to Trevenant, Goodra, and AV Tangrowth as well as missing the 2HKO on Ferrothorn, which 2HKOs you with Power Whip. I just don't get why I would trade all that just to change a 2HKO on Rotom-W to a OHKO (when it can't OHKO you back).

 

[Kavatika]

But you achieve the same thing with Ice Beam...honestly it's just a matter of would you rather lose to Lati@s or Azumarill. At best I think I could mention it in AC but I'm really not seeing the big deal here.

To a lesser extent, although I didn't particularly want to mention them because they are not top tier pokes, you lose to Trevenant, Goodra, and AV Tangrowth as well as missing the 2HKO on Ferrothorn, which 2HKOs you with Power Whip. I just don't get why I would trade all that just to change a 2HKO on Rotom-W to a OHKO (when it can't OHKO you back).

I see your point. I figured it could go through stall teams that use Quagsire a bit easier, although you wouldn't really have a problem with that otherwise. At least give it a mention for teams that are a little more troubled with Azumarill.

 

[Halcyon.]

I see your point. I figured it could go through stall teams that use Quagsire a bit easier, although you wouldn't really have a problem with that otherwise. At least give it a mention for teams that are a little more troubled with Azumarill.

Alright, I'll definitely give it a mention in the moves section. That's more than fair.

 

[Halcyon.]

Hey, so I have some comments on this analysis.


I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding as to what a lure actually is... The purpose of Wacan Berry isn't to "lure in" Thundurus, but rather, to survive its Electric attacks (among others) with relative health so that Manaphy can continue its onslaught on the opposing team. In other words, Wacan Berry isn't a "lure", it's simply an aid the keeps manaphy from being taken out too early so that it may keep sweeping. Implying that it's a lure is saying that you want Thundurus to come in on you, which you really should avoid if possible.


This is in the usage tips, but should probably be in the teammates section. Although, I probably wouldn't state that line anyway. Manaphy is a wallbreaker itself, so it appreciates Pokemon that can clean up after it as opposed to additional wallbreakers. Think Deo-S, Talonflame, etc.


Chansey is the better Pokemon to mention here for obvious reasons. Even so, neither blissey no chansey will try their luck staying in on these Pokemon, so this is where the whole "lure" factor comes in. Basically, stuff like Knock Off Thundurus and Knock Off Landorus would be better as they can actually draw in Chansey and seriously cripple it.

For the checks and counters section, you're usually supposed to list the best counters at the very top. In other words, why is Clefable second to last on that list? It should be first because it always beats Manaphy one-versus-one, whereas everything else on the list can lose if Manaphy carries a specific item, or adjusts its moveset.


Wacan Manaphy can actually beat this thing. I'd mention assault vest Raikou in its place because it can actually tank a +3 Surf even after rock and deal with manaphy relatively easily. In regards to offensive checks, AV Raikou is the best one bar none. See this calc:

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 204-241 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is fairly impressive and it's kinda disappointing not seeing Raikou anywhere on the list while Pokemon like Mega Manectric of all things are... =/

As for the main set, I'm kinda questioning the use of LO considering the whole appeal towards using Manaphy as a sweeper is that it hits hard af after a boost and is relatively bulky, making it difficult to take out, Life Orb just kinda diminishes that altogether. But I suppose that's better left for QC to discuss, though do take this idea under consideration at least.

As for the Calm Mind + Rain Dance set, that seems like something that's better equipped for Suicune, or rather it's outclassed by Suicune, but again, this change is rather controversial.

Other than that, this analysis looks pretty solid.

All fair points and I'll take them into consideration. I wrote up this skeleton a long time ago (my fault, I know), so a lot of the stuff in it is outdated. As for the lure thing, I think Wacan Berry Manaphy works best with things that don't like Thundurus's presence (Mega sweepers, Talonflame, etc.) because it DOES lure in Thundurus. I get what you're saying though, since it also lets Manaphy continue sweeping, but few teams have only Thundurus at >100 Speed, so really all it does most of the time is lure in and KO Thundy, so that something thqt can't outright OHKO you (Latios, Garchomp, etc.) can now revenge kill you. But like I said, I get your point and I'll make the distinction in the usage tips.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree that LO is way less useful than Leftovers or Wacan Berry, to the point i think it should go in 'Moves'. Also, Wacan Berry should be slashed in the main set, as it's great in a metagame where offensive Electric-types are very common.

Mention why one would want to use Life Orb. Here are some useful calcs:

• +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 354-419 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +3 252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 290-342 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +3 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 257-303 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +6 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 446-526 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Clefable: 191-226 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also, as already mentioned, add Mega Manectric and Raikou in checks and counters, as well as Assault Vest Tangrowth.

 

[Aragorn the King]

• If using Stciky Web, use 4 Def EVs so Genesect can't Espeed with +atk

This should be removed. Also, does anyone thing Rindo Berry could be somewhat viable as a M-Venusaur lure? Or is it not worth it at all, because Manaphy can run Psychic?

 

[PurpleCordial]

This should be removed. Also, does anyone thing Rindo Berry could be somewhat viable as a M-Venusaur lure? Or is it not worth it at all, because Manaphy can run Psychic?

LO can OHKO all common variants after SR so its not even worth considering when LO can help with so much more

 

[Jukain]

Yeah, slash Wacan and drop LO.

After talking with CBB and Dice, we've decided the main spread on TG should be 80 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe. Mana doesn't need to tie with base 100s. Char X is usually Adamant/not max Speed, and it's not like DClaw is gonna murder Manaphy on the off-chance that it is max Jolly. Char Y you only have a 43.8% chance to OHKO, and it can KO in return if you lose the Speed tie. This spread provides more bulk, hitting 308 Speed (enough for Deo-D) still, making setup and general survival a significant amount easier.

 

[Halcyon.]

Yeah, slash Wacan and drop LO.

After talking with CBB and Dice, we've decided the main spread on TG should be 80 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe. Mana doesn't need to tie with base 100s. Char X is usually Adamant/not max Speed, and it's not like DClaw is gonna murder Manaphy on the off-chance that it is max Jolly. Char Y you only have a 43.8% chance to OHKO, and it can KO in return if you lose the Speed tie. This spread provides more bulk, hitting 308 Speed (enough for Deo-D) still, making setup and general survival a significant amount easier.

Ok, I'll change the spread in the analysis.

 

[Jukain]

Ok, I'll change the spread in the analysis.

It's actually 176 Spe...yeah

 

[Halcyon.]

It's actually 176 Spe...yeah

lol ok, fixed.

 

[Colonel M]

Im really thinking you want Psychic > Energy Ball. Mega Venusaur is a much tougher opponent for some set up sweepers to bypass and Manaphy does well against it.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Well, Energy Ball has its own list of merits. While it's true that you beat Mega Venusaur with Psychic, Mega Venusaur usage has (in my experience) really fallen off on anything except for full stall which usually has more than one Manaphy check anyway (Chansey, Clefable, Quagsire if you run Psychic, etc). Meanwhile, Energy Ball hits other Manaphy as well as Rotom-W for OHKOs and allows you to actually beat Suicune instead of just getting set up on by it. While Mega Venusaur is obviously a nice target to hit, I think that Energy Balls general utility is way better than Psychics so it should stay the first move.

 

[Colonel M]

My issue is that Mega Venusaur is a very commonly used Pokemon - even outside of stall some of the more balanced teams liked Mega Venusaur. Even when you look at SPL and the current ladder statistics Mega Venusaur beats the popularity of many of the Pokemon you listed (barring Rotom-W, who is one over it in usage).

I think the problem is Halcyon. does not really demonstrate what Energy Ball is hitting. Gastrodon is a mediocre mention. People barely use it. Suicune, other Manaphy, and Rotom-W are fine mentions. But I am a little shocked that Mega Gyarados isnt mentioned either. If Stealth Rock is not in place and Manaphy has Psychic it has a real chance of failing to 2HKO Mega Gyarados. Yeah burn sucks, but weakened Manaphy can be taken advantage of by Mega Gyarados without Energy Ball.

So really I ask to clean up the mentions of what Energy Ball is really hitting.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Fair enough, Gastrodon is indeed a pretty bad thing to mention as a counter, especially when there are so many other common and semi-common Pokemon to choose from (such as the three I outlined as well as the Mega Gyarados you brought up and Quagsire). Those five should give a pretty good and broad idea of the positive things Energy Ball > Psychic brings to the table, though.