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OU Mandibuzz

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Shroomisaur, Dec 16, 2013.

  1. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    [​IMG]
    Bone jewelry is making a comeback!
    My Preview

    QC: ginga, PK, Fuzznip
    GP: piikachuu, Rohail

    Overview
    ########
    Although it was one of the best defensive Pokemon in BW NU, Mandibuzz was rarely seen outside of the lower tiers. Its typing gives it weaknesses to common attacking types, and a nasty Stealth Rock weakness greatly reduces its defensive potential. Mandibuzz also has terrible offensive stats and must rely on Foul Play or Toxic to deal damage, which makes it very predictable. However, with the Steel-type nerf causing Ghost- and Dark-type moves to jump in popularity, Mandibuzz's typing shines, as it gives it these two key resistances combined with a neutrality to Fighting-type moves. This allows Mandibuzz to counter many popular threats that rely on Ghost / Fighting or Dark / Fighting coverage, including Aegislash and Gengar. Add in immunities to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks, excellent 110 / 105 / 95 defensive stats, and reliable recovery in Roost, and Mandibuzz becomes very difficult to take down. With a number of great support options including Defog at its disposal, Mandibuzz is a real defensive threat in XY.

    Utility
    ########
    name: Utility
    move 1: Foul Play
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Taunt / Whirlwind
    move 4: Defog / Toxic / Knock Off
    ability: Overcoat
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
    nature: Bold / Impish

    Moves
    ========
    Foul Play is one of the biggest factors to Mandibuzz's success, as it allows Mandibuzz to bypass its own terrible offensive stats by using the opponent's Attack stat. Foul Play deals heavy damage to opposing physical attackers, defeating them one-on-one. For example, standard bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados fails to deal 26% damage with Waterfall, while Foul Play is a guaranteed 2HKO in return. Combined with reliable recovery in Roost, Mandibuzz is a great counter to many physical threats. Mandibuzz is also surprisingly fast for a defensive Pokemon, and access to Taunt allows it to perform as an amazing stallbreaker while Whirlwind racks up entry hazard damage and can force out special setup sweepers. The final moveslot is used for a utility move of your choice. Defog provides anti-entry hazard support for the team. Toxic allows Mandibuzz to stall out defensive threats that don't fear Foul Play. Knock Off is an excellent option to remove items from common switch-ins, and is especially effective when combined with Whirlwind on stall teams.

    Set Details
    ========
    248 HP EVs make Mandibuzz generally bulkier, and the most of the rest are split between both defenses; 108 EVs are invested into Special Defense to avoid a 2HKO from Landorus's Focus Blast, and the rest is put into Defense to cushion physical hits even better. 16 Speed EVs gives the small, but useful benefit of outrunning neutral-natured max Speed Mawile and Azumarill, giving Mandibuzz an opportunity to hit them in desperate situations. Because Foul Play is the only attack, a Bold nature with 0 Attack IVs should be used to reduce confusion and opposing Foul Play damage. Choose an Impish nature if you use Knock Off or other physical attacks.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    Mandibuzz has excellent bulk and makes a great switch-in to many physical threats, and Foul Play allows Mandibuzz to defeat most attackers one-on-one, because it only gets stronger if they attempt to boost against Mandibuzz. However, Mandibuzz also has solid Special Defense, which makes it the most reliable switch-in to Aegislash, which commonly runs mixed sets.

    The final moveslot really determines the role Mandibuzz will take and which type of team it will fit best on. Defog combines well with Taunt to ensure that Mandibuzz can reliably clear hazards and defeat opposing hazard setters one-on-one, and is best for more offensive teams. Toxic and Taunt together turn Mandibuzz into an excellent stallbreaker. Finally, Whirlwind is best when Mandibuzz is used on more defensive stall teams.

    Team Options
    ========
    Mandibuzz is vulnerable to super effective special attacks, so it works best with support from specially defensive teammates such as Blissey, Mega Venusaur, or Ferrothorn. If using Defog, offensive teammates that appreciate the support include Talonflame, Volcarona, and Charizard. If not using Defog, Mandibuzz itself requires Rapid Spin support to be most effective, and Excadrill is an excellent partner for that purpose. Other Pokemon that have solid bulk and good defensive synergy with Mandibuzz include Rotom-H, Jirachi, and Magnezone.

    Other Options
    ########
    Substitute is a good option in place of Taunt, as it allows Mandibuzz to utilize the SubRoost combination to stall out slower threats. U-turn can allow Mandibuzz to function as a bulky pivot, and is especially useful after using Defog to safely bring in a teammate. Brave Bird is a powerful STAB attack that can surprise opposing Fighting- and Grass-types, but has little use otherwise. Tailwind can be used alongside U-turn as a niche support option for offensive teams. Finally, Mandibuzz has access to Nasty Plot and special moves including Dark Pulse, Air Slash, and Heat Wave, but base 55 Special Attack is too weak even after a boost.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Powerful Special Attackers**: Mandibuzz is vulnerable to common special attacks such as Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. Special attackers such as Thundurus-T, Rotom-A, Greninja, Magnezone, Mega Ampharos, and Mega Manectric don't fear Foul Play and can defeat Mandibuzz with powerful super effective moves. Mixed offensive Pokemon such as Kyurem-B and Thundrus-I risk being 2HKOed by Foul Play, but outspeed and easily 2HKO Mandibuzz if they switch in safely.

    **Fairy-types**: Defensive Fairy-type Pokemon such as Sylveon and Clefable resist Foul Play, often carry reliable recovery and status healing moves, and threaten Mandibuzz with their STAB Fairy-type attacks. Mega Mawile and Choice Band Azumarill are much more offensive counters, capable of nearly OHKOing Mandibuzz with STAB Play Rough. Mega Gardevoir can cleanly OHKO Mandibuzz with Hyper Voice.

    **Fast Toxic or Taunt Users**: Mandibuzz is crippled by Toxic and shut down by Taunt. Because Mandibuzz can Taunt slower defensive threats, the best users must be fast yet able to withstand Foul Play. Gliscor and Crobat are the best choices, outspeeding Mandibuzz and being capable of using both Toxic and Taunt to ruin Mandibuzz. Both are immune to Toxic themselves and have reliable recovery as well. Tentacruel is another good choice and can Toxic Mandibuzz before it can Taunt, while Sableye can shut down Mandibuzz with Prankster Taunt and stall out Foul Play.

    **Stealth Rock**: Keeping Stealth Rock on the field greatly limits Mandibuzz's defensive abilities. Mandibuzz often carries Defog, so the best users also threaten Mandibuzz to prevent it from switching in. Good choices include Mamoswine, which can outspeed and 2HKO with STAB Icicle Crash. Tyranitar can be Taunted, but threatens with Stone Edge and resists Foul Play. Terrakion gets a special mention as it can set up Stealth Rock, 2HKO Mandibuzz with Stone Edge, and gain a free boost from Foul Play thanks to Justified.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2014
  2. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Ok, I'm putting this up for QC now! Just a few notes for QC this time around:

    1. I merged the two sets together, since after Sub was removed from the first set of my preview, they were very similar. I've attempted to stress the differences in Mandibuzz's use depending on the final move choice in the "Usage Tips" section.

    2. Many people use a specially defensive spread, does this deserve a mention somewhere?

    3. Knock Off still in OO, or does it deserve a slash?
  3. cellgoondude

    cellgoondude

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    Knock off deserves a Other Options mention.
    Selflessly likes this.
  4. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    QC APPROVED 1/3
  5. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I'd bump up Knock Off to Set Details. Don't get me wrong, 9 times out of 10 you're going to want to use Foul Play, but Knock Off is there if you want Mandibuzz to strip the item of a common switch in, like Rotom-W! (Don't forget to mention it in C&C)

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  6. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thanks PK! I moved up the Knock Off mention as you suggested and fleshed out the comments a bit. Will write this up later tonight.
  7. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Ok, thank you both ginga and PK!

    This is now written up and ready for the 3rd QC check. Please let me know if there are any issues with the new format!
  8. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Ok, so after extensively testing Mandibuzz, I question the necessity of outpacing Rotom-W. First of all, by not switching out, she puts herself in a risky position versus variants that choose to run enough speed for certain threats. Secondly, Mandibuzz can't really do anything to the defensive set, and even if it is slower, Rotom-W can still play mind games with Will-O-Wisp and Volt Switch. Finally, she can invest those Speed EVs in bulk to check or counter certain threats more easily.

    Accordingly, I propose that the spread 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpDef Bold replace the one currently in the OP. The main reason I didn't suggest max/max Bold is because, with 44 Special Defense EVs, Mandibuzz has a dramatically higher chance of living two Life Orb Focus Blasts from Timid Landorus-I at full health (28.1% chance of a 2HKO vs. a 71.1% chance, not factoring in accuracy). It also allows her to take other neutral Special hits like Aegislash's Flash Cannon a bit better.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
    Jukain, Halcyon., alexwolf and 2 others like this.
  9. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    I absolutely agree, I've always wanted a bit of SpD investment on Mandibuzz and that Spe was mainly a holdover. EV spread has been updated!
  10. Namso

    Namso
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    I'd put Jirachi > Metagross instead as a suggested teammate, as Metagross is kinda "meh" right now.

    I'd mention fast Taunt users as well that can shut Mandibuzz down, assuming they are not significantly damaged by Foul Play (do those even exist? I dunno!).

    Great job!

    QC APPROVED 3/3
  11. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thank you very much, Fuzznip!
  12. piikachuu

    piikachuu now with a scarf
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    i was going to use red green and white for holiday spirit but then i realized the issue with that
    Show Hide

    Overview
    ########
    (remove line break)
    Although it was one of the best defensive Pokemon in BW NU, Mandibuzz was rarely seen outside of the lower tiers last generation. Its typing gives it weaknesses to common attacking types, including and a nasty Stealth Rock weakness that greatly reduces its defensive potential. (i didn't like the way it was phrased because it sounded like stealth rock was a type) Mandibuzz also has terrible offensive stats and must rely on Foul Play or Toxic to deal damage, which makes it very predictable. However, with the Steel-type nerf causing Ghost- and Dark-type moves to jump in popularity, Mandibuzz's typing gives it these two key resistances combined with a neutrality to Fighting-type moves. This allows Mandibuzz to counter many popular threats that rely on Ghost / Fighting or Dark / Fighting coverage, including Aegislash and Gengar. Add in immunities to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks, excellent 110/105/95 (spaces between the stat and the /) defensive stats, and reliable recovery in Roost, and Mandibuzz becomes very difficult to take down. With a number of great support options including Defog at its disposal, Mandibuzz is a real defensive threat in XY.

    Utility
    ########
    name: Utility
    move 1: Foul Play
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Defog / Toxic / Whirlwind
    ability: Overcoat
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD (should be evs then nature)

    Moves
    ========
    (remove line break)
    Foul Play is one of the biggest factors to Mandibuzz's success, as it allows Mandibuzz to bypass its own terrible offensive stats by using the opponent's Attack stat. Foul Play deals heavy damage to opposing physical Pokemon attackers, defeating them one-(hyphen)on-(hyphen)one. For example, standard bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados fails to deal 26% damage with Waterfall while Foul Play is a guaranteed 2HKO in return. Combined with reliable recovery in Roost, Mandibuzz is a great counter to many physical threats. However, Mandibuzz is also surprisingly fast for a defensive Pokemon, and access to Taunt allows it to perform as an amazing stallbreaker. Taunt prevents opposing Pokemon from setting up, healing, or using status moves against Mandibuzz. (people know what taunt does) The final moveslot is your utility move of choice. Defog provides anti-entry hazard support for the team. Toxic allows Mandibuzz to stall out defensive threats that don't fear Foul Play. Whirlwind racks up entry hazard damage while forcing out special setup sweepers.

    Set Details
    ========
    (remove line break)
    The EVs emphasize Mandibuzz's physical bulk, with the remainder invested in SpD Special Defense to cushion special hits from threats such as mixed Aegislash. Because Foul Play is the only attack, a Bold nature with a 0 Atk Attack IV should be used to reduce confusion and opposing Foul Play damage. Although Foul Play is difficult to give up, Knock Off is an excellent option to remove items from common switch-ins, and is especially effective when combined with Whirlwind on stall teams. Choose an Impish nature if you use Knock Off or other physical attacks.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    (remove line break)
    Mandibuzz has excellent bulk and makes an excellent switch-in to many physical threats(provide some examples), and Foul Play allows Mandibuzz to defeat most attackers one on one ("one-on-one"), because it only gets stronger if they attempt to boost against Mandibuzz. However, Mandibuzz also has solid sSpecial dDefense which makes it the most reliable switch-in to Aegislash, which commonly runs mixed sets.

    The final moveslot really determines the role Mandibuzz will take,(RC) and which type of team it will fit best on. Defog combines well with Taunt to ensure that Mandibuzz can reliably clear hazards and defeat opposing hazard setters one on one ("one-on-one"), and is best for more offensive teams. Toxic and Taunt together turn Mandibuzz into an excellent stallbreaker. Finally, Whirlwind is best when Mandibuzz is used on more defensive stall teams.

    Team Options
    ========
    (remove line break)
    Mandibuzz is vulnerable to super effective special attacks, so it works best with support from specially defensive teammates such as Blissey, Mega Venusaur, or Ferrothorn. If using Defog, offensive teammates that appreciate the support include Talonflame, Volcarona, and Charizard. If not using Defog, Mandibuzz itself requires Rapid Spin support to be most effective, and Excadrill is an excellent partner. Other Pokemon that have solid bulk and good defensive synergy with Mandibuzz include Rotom-H, Jirachi, and Magnezone.

    Other Options
    ########
    (remove line break)
    Substitute is a good option in place of Taunt, as it allows Mandibuzz to utilize the SubRoost combination to stall out slower threats. U-Tturn can allow Mandibuzz to function as a bulky pivot, and is especially useful after using Defog to safely bring in a teammate. Brave Bird is a powerful STAB attack that can surprise opposing Fighting- and Grass-types, but has little use otherwise. Tailwind can be used alongside U-Tturn a as niche support option for offensive teams. Finally, Mandibuzz has access to Nasty Plot and special moves including Dark Pulse, Air Slash, and Heat Wave, but base 55 Special Attack is weak even after a boost.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Super Effective Powerful (kind of up to you, but super effective special attackers sounds weird) Special Attackers**: Mandibuzz is vulnerable to common special attacks like such as Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. Special attackers such as Thundurus-T, Rotom-A (i don't think this is the right form name, do you mean the fridge one (Rotom-F)?), Greninja, Magnezone, Mega Ampharos, and Mega Manectric don't fear Foul Play and can defeat Mandibuzz with powerful super effective moves. Mixed offensive Pokemon such as Genesect and Kyurem risk being 2HKO'ed by Foul Play, but outpsspeed and 2HKO Mandibuzz if they switch in safely.

    **Fairy-types**: Defensive Fairy-type Pokemon such as Sylveon and Clefable resist Foul Play, often carry reliable recovery and status healing moves, and threaten Mandibuzz with their STAB Moonblast Fairy-type attacks or status. Mega Mawile and Choice Band Azumarill are much more offensive counters, capable of nearly OHKOing Mandibuzz with STAB Play Rough.

    **Fast Toxic or Taunt Users**: Mandibuzz is crippled by Toxic,(RC) and shut down by Taunt. Because Mandibuzz can Taunt slower defensive threats, the best users must be fast yet able to withstand Foul Play. Gliscor and Crobat are the best choices, outspeeding Mandibuzz and capable of using both Toxic and Taunt to ruin Mandibuzz. Both are immune to Toxic and have reliable recovery as well. Tentacruel is another good choice and can Toxic Mandibuzz before it Mandibuzz can Taunt, while Sableye can shut down Mandibuzz with Prankster Taunt and stall out Foul Play.

    **Stealth Rock**: Keeping Stealth Rock on the field greatly limits Mandibuzz's defensive abilities. Mandibuzz often carries Defog, so the best users also threaten Mandibuzz to prevent it from switching in. Good choices include Mamoswine, which can outspeed and 2HKO with STAB Icicle Crash. Tyranitar can be Taunted, but threatens with Stone Edge and resists Foul Play. Terrakion gets a special mention as it can set up Stealth Rock, 2HKO Mandibuzz with Stone Edge, and gain a free boost from Foul Play thanks to Justified.



    gp 1/2
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  13. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    I suppose you could use white text and just make it a scavenger hunt!. Red Green and Blue work just as well, plenty of holiday spirit. thanks piikachuu!

    GP check has been fully implemented 1/2, need one more!
    piikachuu likes this.
  14. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    GP Check

    Great job!

    GP Approved 2/2
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  15. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thank you very much Rohail! Feels good to be done with my first official analysis.

    Mandi is COMPLETE! Ok the official tag is "Done", but Complete just sounds so much more impressive
  16. Selflessly

    Selflessly

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    How would a set like Foul Play/Knock Off/Defog/Roost be since Foul Play destroys physical sweeps and Knock Off messes any switches/walls, instead of Taunt since I feel it isnt that good in solving anything.
  17. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    It's perfectly viable, but Knock Off is already mentioned in OO, and Taunt is still the preferred option to completely shut down walls and other users of Taunt before they prevent Mandibuzz from Roosting or using Defog. It's definitely not worth another set.
    Selflessly likes this.
  18. Menace13

    Menace13

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    I feel you should mention the buff to Overcoat somewhere, as the immunity to Spore and Sleep Powder provides Mandibuzz even more switch-in opportunities and allows it to wall even more Pokémon which could normally just put defensive Pokémon to sleep. Since Overcoat has never been a particularly useful ability until now, some people probably don't know about the spore/powder move immunity provided by it, so a brief explanation behind the usefulness of Overcoat would be nice.
    Piexplode likes this.
  19. WebBowser

    WebBowser

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    Deo-S immediately comes to mind as a fast taunter that fears foul play.

    Also, I think that there are one or two ghost types not named sableye that sometimes run taunt, such as Gengar

    Probably not worth mentioning, but I never get tired of one shotting a shell smashed cloyster with foul play after not getting OHKOd by icicle spear.
  20. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I know that the analysis is "Complete", so forgive me for doing this, but I'd still like to suggest a slight adjustment to the way the set is slashed:

    move 1: Foul Play
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Taunt / Whirlwind
    move 4: Defog / Toxic / Knock Off
    nature: Bold / Impish

    The main reason for this is that I've found Foul Play - Knock Off - Whirlwind - Roost to be one of the most potent sets I've tried. Knock Off and Whirlwind work hand-in-hand with each other, as the former provokes switches, and the latter capitalizes on them. Whirlwind also prevents special sweepers from setting up on Mandibuzz.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  21. Namso

    Namso
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    Supporting the above. Please make the set change, sorry for the inconvenience.
  22. Namso

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    Shroomisaur

    Can you do what SMB told you above? Sorry for the inconvenience, thanks.
  23. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    PK Gaming actually made the fix while he was gone.
  24. Selflessly

    Selflessly

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    I'm curious if this is the optimal spread, as I'm seeing in the OU teambuilding thread that they use 252 Def, 220/224 HP, 32/36 Spe?
  25. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I actually think it may just be a good idea to just change the spread to 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef Bold, since it guarantees that Mandibuzz lives Megacham's Adamant High Jump Kick after Stealth Rock, and generally lets it take on physical threats like Talonflame as well as possible.

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