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Marowak (BW2 Revamp) QC 0/3

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Alfalfa, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    http://smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-c-c-index-and-reservations.3484200/page-4#post-4768303
    [​IMG]
    [overview]

    *Marowak has a personal item in Thick Club that doubles its attack stat, turning his base 80 attack into base 209 attack with maximum attack investment. It also does not give recoil or lock Marowak into a move.
    *Resists Stealth Rock, can lay it down, and has a cool immunity to Electric-type moves
    *Key weaknesses to Water, Grass, and Electric type moves
    *Excessively worn down due to not having the ability to hold Leftovers
    *So slow; 45 base speed ties with Golem


    None of Marowak's stats look that impressive aside from a solid base 110 defense, but underestimating this demon will lead to your demise. He has a personal item, Thick Club, that only the Marowak evolutionary branch can wield. It doubles the physical attack, turning Marowak's base 80 attack into a base 209 attack with full investment. This turns Marowak into a fearsome threat. Combine that with a resistance and access to Stealth Rock, an immunity to Thunder Wave, and a unique-and-effective STAB in Bonemerang, and Marowak can be a terrifying nightmare to teams that are caught off-guard.
    However, Marowak sits in the dark depths of NU for a reason: it has pitiful base 45 speed, which leaves it to speed tie with the common Golem. It also gets excessively worn down, due to its inability to hold Leftovers, and not stellar defenses. Also, a pure Ground typing comes with three common weaknesses to Water, Grass, and Ice-type moves. As a result, Marowak needs some team support to function. However, with such sheer power at its disposal, Marowak's pros can outweigh its cons, and it can prove to be a pestilence to the opponent.

    [SET]

    name: Offensive
    move 1: Stealth Rock/Substitute
    move 2: Bonemerang
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Double-Edge
    item: Thick Club
    ability: Rock Head
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    *Behind a Substitute, Marowak forces many switches, courtesy of its personal Thick Club
    *Bonemerang has two, 50 BP shots, allowing it to break substitutes, Sturdy, and Focus Sashes. No other Ground type in NU learns it, which is one of Marowak's key advantages.
    *Stone Edge rounds off coverage with Earthquake
    *Double-Edge abuses Rock Head

    This set is Marowak's standard offensive set. He can either use Stealth Rock with Bonemerang to beat down common Stealth Rock leads, like Gigalith and Regirock, or Substitute to protect Marowak from status, Knock Off, and Trick. Bonemerang has two, 50 BP shots, allowing it to break substitutes, Sturdy, and Focus Sashes. No other Ground-type in NU learns Bonemerang, and despite a 90% accuracy, it makes Marowak a pain in the neck. Stone Edge rounds off coverage with Earthquake to hit things like Charizard, Rotom-Fan, and so on. Marowak's access to Rock Head allows it to abuse Double-Edge, giving a 120 BP move with no recoil. This allows Marowak to hit hard without relying on his other moves.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    *EVs allow Marowak to outspeed Modest Shell Smash Torkoal. 200 HP EVs also insure that Jolly Choice Band Sawk will never OHKO with Close Combat
    *Alomomola and Lickilicky can pass huge Wishes to accommodate for Marowak's lack of recovery
    *Tangela and Torterra annoy Marowak; Magmar and Electabuzz can absorb Tangela's sleep and KO both of them with Fire Blast or Hidden Power Ice
    *Paralysis support from Musharna, Murkrow, Lickilicky, etc.
    *Gothorita can trap physical walls like Tangela and Weezing and remove them
    *Seismitoad leads annoy Marowak to death; grasses like Roselia can handle Seismitoad and other waters, like Alomomola
    *Any other item, such as Leftovers and a resist berry, is outclassed by Thick Club, as Thick Club is one of Marowak's key selling points
    *Toxic Spikes support helps wear down walls that Marowak normally has troubles beating

    [OTHER OPTIONS]

    *Trick Room attacker
    *Swords Dance, but Marowak is too slow
    *Earthquake
    *Thunderpunch and Fire Punch are really unnecessary, and do not give much additional damage output
    *Knock Off to annoy Eviolite users
    *Rock Slide, but so much weaker than Stone Edge
    *Marowak has some special attacks it can learn, but they deal pitiful damage due to being a Special Attack, which Thick Club does not boost. Also, Marowak has 50 base Special Attack. However, Naughty Nature with 88 Special Attack EVs can 2HKO Torterra with Ice Beam
    *Sing and Perish Song

    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

    *Torterra walls Marowak altogether; Fire Punch does not even cleanly 2HKO Torterra
    *Tangela and Alomomola
    *Weezing is 3HKOd after Stealth Rock, and can Will-O-Wisp Marowak
    *Burn spreaders like Misdreavus, Seismitoad, and Wartortle
    *Special Attackers like Samurott and Roselia
    *Piloswine has STAB Icicle Spear to break Marowak's Substitutes
    *Roselia has super effective STAB on Marowak, and has Spikes to wear Marowak's team down
    *Marowak's base 45 speed is pretty slow, so anything faster can revenge kill it
    *Trick and Knock Off
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  2. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Extra post by accident
  3. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    As an avid user of Marowak, let me throw my thoughts on this.

    - Firstly, i would acknowledge that Marowak faces severe competition as a SR setter due to the likes of fellow Ground-type Pokemon's extra resistances; namely Golem's Normal-, Flying-resist; Seismitoad's Water-resist (and much better typing generally), and Golurk's immunity to Fighting-type moves . Marowak, being only Ground-type, doesn't have much notable resistances.

    - In the overview, instead of Marowak's 'lack of recovery', I would much rather reword it to something around the lines of 'is worn down by attacks and hazards due to its low speed and mediocre typing.'

    -I honestly would like to see Earthquake in AC instead of slashed; my justification of which is because they practically have the same amount of Base Power, but with Bonmerang's added utility of breaking sashes and whatnots. The accuracy isn't much of a problem imo, as being able to break Sturdymons and Sashmons is one of Marowak's main niches.

    Edit: also try to tell the readers why you should use/not use marowak on their team!
  4. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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  5. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    Marowak's line is my favorite, so I will be as thorough as possible. First, fix your formatting please, with all your points in an ordered list, a space after each section title (like [Set Comments] for instance), and the moves should come right after the set name.

    [Overview]

    It's not worn down because of its typing but rather the lack of recovery, thanks mostly to the inability to hold Leftovers. For that Thick Club mention, you have to add the fact that it can also switch moves (the key advantage over Choice Band).

    [Set Comments 1]

    Thick Club doesn't force switches, Marowak's massive damage output does. You have to mention the benefit of Bonemerang, which is the fact that it can get around Sturdy and break Substitutes thanks to it hitting twice while still have the same level of power as EQ. For the Substitute attacker, Earthquake should be slashed after Bonemerang as well, since the set isn't meant to be an anti-lead most of the time (though it can if it has to), and Marowak appreciates the perfect accuracy. I don't personally see much value in Ice Punch since it only 3HKOs Tangela without a full field of Spikes, but let's see what QC says (since it does hit Torterra as well). I'll also mention this now rather than when you write this up, but change "abuse" to "takes advantage of" since that is the wrong use of the word and it has a bad connotation here. Finally, move those 4 leftover EVs from SDef to Def, since Marowak has decent physical bulk and it makes more sense overall (even if it doesn't really affect anything).

    [Additional Comments 1]

    Why is Jolly slashed? From what I can tell, it lets you beat max Speed Golem and the stuff that outruns it, but you don't mention anything at all. Explain what you need those hazards for, or else remove that point. If you do have a reason to keep it, mention that Marowak's typing conflicts with most common Stealth Rock leads, so that Pokemon with different types are preferred as teammates (Metang, Miltank, and Cradily come to mind). A mention of Toxic Spikes would be good since it wears down those physically bulky Pokemon that can wall Marowak (Alomomola and Tangela especially) and Marowak threatens the Grounded Posion-types that absorb it, as well as the Steel-types immune to it. Gothorita also deserves a small mention since it can trap physically bulky walls (Weezing especially) and remove them.

    [Set Comments 2]

    Bonemerang's main draw is that it can break through those Sturdy leads and KO them before they set up Stealth Rocks. That gives Marowak a slight advantage over Golem and Seismitoad (as well as non-DynamicPunch Golurk).

    [Additional Comments 2]

    You can't Speed creep. Reduce the Speed EVs down to 56 to outrun Modest Torkoal before a Shell Smash. You also need more teammates. A Ghost-type teammate would be useful to prevent your Rocks from being spun away, Missy being a top tier one. This set would like similar teammates to the previous one, though it is more of a hit and run attacker than a sweeper.

    [Other Options]

    The last point should be more like "Other items can be used, such as Choice Band and Life Orb, but they give up the combination of a massive power boost and the ability to switch moves without losing HP." Remove the mention of Rock Polish, it is good but Marowak doesn't even learn it. Sing deserves a mention, as does Perish Song.

    [Checks ad Counters]

    Weezing should be mentioned here; it is immune to Bonemerang/EQ, and it relies on a couple of high damage rolls to 2HKO with Double Edge after Stealth Rock. It doesn't do too much back to Marowak, but it can Will-O-Wisp it when it isn't behind a Sub. Marowak's biggest weakness is its terrible Speed, so mention that anything faster than it can likely revenge kill it. Remove Scolipede, since hazards themselves just as significant to most other Pokemon. Torterra walls any Marowak without Ice Punch, so add that too. Physically defensive Seismitoad is a good check since it can take any hit and strike back with a Scald.
  6. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    252 Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 204-242 (49.27 - 58.45%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I also question how Marowak can prevent leads from laying down Stealth Rock if it is outrun by most of them, especially Golem.
  7. tehy

    tehy

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    is there a point to even mentioning CB and LO in this? They both give less power and have drawbacks too;CB's only advantage is if people monkey around with trick and LO if you want to use a special attack, which seems to only be OO Fire Blast

    If you want to mention OO other items and explain other items in general aren't viable in one sentence, why not say Scarf, Lefties, Sash, Resist Berry. At least those, while bad, aren't DIRECTLY OUTCLASSED.

    Edit: Uh...they're not outclassed, they just suck massively. Those two are pretty different, and i hope when it's written up you don't write it like that.
  8. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Is there anything else I should add?
  9. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    mention no other item in a positive way at all.

    Also this really needs to follow the proper formatting before I can check this. I'll give this a thorough check when you make this look the way its supposed to :)

    I love marowak btw
    WhiteDMist likes this.
  10. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Made the formatting change
  11. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    ThunderPunch would only hit Water/Flying types harder because 75*2 (SE TPunch against, like, Alomomola) = 100 * 1.5 (STAB), and Stone Edge probably OHKOs all of them anyway, so it probably doesn't even need to be mentioned in OO.

    Also, Fire Blast barely does more than Fire Punch to Tangela (assuming you have a Thick Club), so that may not even be OO worthy either.

    0 SpAtk Marowak Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Tangela: 40.72% - 47.9% (3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Thick Club Marowak (+Atk) Fire Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def) : 34.13% - 40.72% (3 hits to KO)
  12. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    First things first, remove the second set. It isn't worth it on its own, it is too outclassed, I'd just prefer using Seismitoad or Golurk instead of this.

    In the overview, remove mentions of what Thick Club does, just mention that it doubles its Attack stat. Mention more about how it performs in the current metagame.

    Change the name of the set, just name it something like Offensive or something idk.

    Make the set into this:

    name: Offensive
    move 1: Stealth Rock / Substitute
    move 2: Bonemerang
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Double-Edge
    item: Thick Club
    ability: Rock Head
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    Mention that Marowak shouldn't dedicate a whole set to Stealth Rock, and should focus on attacking. Substitute is a good alternative if you already have a Stealth Rocker. Earthquake should not be slashed beside Bonemerang because Bonemerang is the superior option. Rock Head is also the superior option as the ability, as it allows you to use a recoil-less Double-Edge. In AC, in your second bullet point you didn't complete your sentence, but I guess you wanted to say that those are good Spikers. Also mention Toxic in the last slot over Double-Edge to do something to walls that you usually are not able to touch such as Alomomola and Tangela.

    Also please remove the mention of Fire Blast in OO, it's just so weak.. The rest looks fine.
  13. Alfalfa

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    I would remove it if the consensus of at least three people say to remove it. Not everyone has the same feelings about everything.
  14. WhiteDMist

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    I would remove the mention of Fire Blast and just say that Marowak has an assortment of Special attacks, but that none of them are that useful even if it gets a Lightningrod boost.
  15. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I have consulted QC Whore EBeast while making my post, so please do not disregard my advice and remove it.
  16. Alfalfa

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    The problem I have with offensive Marowak w/ Stealth Rock > Substitute is the fact that the lack of Substitute leaves it much more vulnerable to revenge killers, status, and random Super Effective attacks, like Scald. Also, Marowak may also die before even laying down Stealth Rock if no EVs are invested into bulk.
  17. Raseri

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    sub should be slashed over stealth rock. SR is second slash on the offensive set.

    The stealth rock set should be removed entirely

    also no fire blast mentions ever
  18. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    I will remove the Stealth Rock set, but the slash of sub to Stealth Rock seems too impractical, as I explained before. Leaving Marowak exposed like that is too risky.
  19. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    That's why Substitute is the first slash.
  20. Alfalfa

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    Except I am suggesting Stealth Rock is too impractical for the set altogether
  21. Raseri

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    it is not impractical. Marowak as a Stealth Rock lead is decent, and as it beats most other leads, it can use it quite effectively.
  22. Alfalfa

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    I still feel iffy about it, but I will put it down. Is it ready for QC checks?
  23. tennisace

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    Why is there no mention of Seismitoad anywhere? Offensive Seismitoad is one of the more common opposing SR leads, and it straight up obliterates Marowak (provided it doesn't miss). In addition, Exeggutor is never mentioned, and it's another common threat that can beat up on Marowak without much trouble. It also doubles as a nice partner to rid your team of Bulky Water-types like Alomomola. Without going through and saying that you need to mention every single Pokemon that can tank a hit from Marowak or pair well with Marowak, you should use broad statements with a couple specific examples like "Grass-types pair well with Marowak because they resist Water and Grass-type moves. Examples include (list common Grass-types)". That way, you give the reader a good starting point for teambuilding with common partners, but also let them know that those partners aren't the only choices, just the most common.
  24. Alfalfa

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    Mentioned
  25. WhiteDMist

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    This needs a Quality Control prefix...

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